(PSN)GEN-Son_17

What other games are you comparing Warframe to? Also, at what level of play does this begin to really effect your gameplay? I'm going to ask this a lot because, from some other conversations, heavily relying on CC lockdowns and not being able to take out an immune eximus overheard is looking like a high level endurance issue. If this is the case, then I didn't think any of this is an issue at all. We should be able to take out one or two eximus units at a time while the rest of the enemies are locked down. It's not even close to a hard ask, and, honestly, eximus addressed the lazy Limbo and Khora issues pretty well, who often prevented faster killing of enemies who gave out survival air and rewards. So, that said, where does the eximus issue become too much of a threat to CC?

I agree here. Basically, we'll be giving overguard enemies a similar CC defense as the sentients. But, I'm seriously curious as to which abilities or frames are having a hard time? Because my builds and play style is different, I honestly do not know how many frames are negatively effected in such a high degree. Is it just Limbo, Volt and Banshee? That's all I can think of.

I think DE has a pretty good path to a solution: Take this current overguard system and introduce it at SP level 301. Level SP 301 is right after 10x our max rank and is also where I would reduce enemy damage output a bit, but increase eximus presence (to warm players up to what is to be expected going forward). Many players wouldn't like this because it increases the challenge...and that is a very good thing. As I said in another thread, this CC issue is exclusively an issue in SP/endgame levels, particularly endurance and the latest, hardest game mode DE offers. All other lower leveled modes have enemies that can't take our firepower. These issues SHOULD exist at the highest levels and cause us to rethink every build we have. We are seriously too comfortable with our offense and meta builds and I'm happy to see stun lock style CC take a hit and make us think twice about our protections, our over reliance on CC and not diversifying our arsenals enough to prepare for the eximus mini bosses. Don't get me wrong, I also don't like having to take on overguard protected enemies...but I love that they exist and work hard to keep me from being overly dominant. I can still shut down every other enemy with an Avalanche, but I better be ready to focus on the eximus while everyone else is frozen. That sounds right in line with how late game should be.

Ahhh, I see. That's a tough one but I would say no to eximus being immune to damage abilities but yes to any damage procs in the IPS area. I say this because I think anything that has forceful, physical impact onto the overguard should count towards it's depletion (especially impact and blast based), but we shouldn't have any after effects the procs offer. I also agree with DE's decision to keep cold as the only elemental proc to have an effect since cold truly effects everything. I especially love that even that has a limited effect. That was a nice attention to detail. On a side note, I am very happy you specified your referencing to SP endurance. I honestly have a bias against longer endurance gameplay being included into game changes and balancing. Making it easier for that side usually further trivializes the normal chart and non endurance SP sides and that is very bad for all of us, IMO. In fact, I lean towards giving the enemy even more leverage over us as soon as levels get to level 301 (aka right after 10x our max rank). More toxin eximus, more slash based enemies and more magnetic eximus. Players are too comfortable not having to use resistance mods and arcanes and try a little too hard to push DE even further away from using nearly all of them. I want level 301 to be damn near impossible and force endurance players to make even larger sacrifices for power, have better results from gaining resistance defense over power, or experiment with even more creative tactics to try and find a great balance. This would help to solve a HUGE issue for me and maybe the forums in general: where and when in the game do these heavier discussions regarding balance, overguard, challenge, difficulty and "meaningful rewards" normally take place. It's a rant, sorry, but I think this separation can refine a lot of the game from all sides.

I'm finding a lot of those type of players tend to be what some call "Rushframe" players. They just want to get the rewards and leave. No exploration, no teamwork, no mechanics learning. It's all about selfishness in a public setting. Unfortunately, that's just people being people. Nothing we can do about it, regardless of the game we play.

I gotcha...but do you think our two choices of frame building define the challenge of the eximus units instead of their lack of CC susceptibility? A glass cannon build always come with greater risk and make even a more basic unit seem more threatening. Meanwhile, I begin to sweat much later in the game where perhaps greater ability duration or range would come more in handy, but the frames can still take hits before I have to go into recovery. Often, I tend to already have a class of weapons that supplements a particular frame's abilities and features, so I go a little hard when balancing the kit. Frames like an Ember, Frost or Nidus, for example, get types like the Parasitic bow, Incarnon Atomos, Incarnon Sancti Magistar and a Moa to help keep enemies close while creating faster opportunities to do finishers. Meanwhile, a Limbo or Nyx type would get more like the Trumna, a beam secondary like the Synoid Gammacor, glaives and a robo doggo, of which all are VERY good at clearing eximus, Acolytes and mobs nearly instantly but also spreads some aggro via a bit of radiation and the robo doggo's separation precept (forgot the name). So basically, one style likes to keep enemies close while the other accounts for the lower eHP of some frames and has an arsenal that can keep enemies occupied or at a distance, in case I need to recover.

And this is what I don't get. There aren't enough eximus units at a time for the frames you mentioned to be in such a bad position that we can't concentrate our fire on them while the mobs are under CC. To me, it makes perfect sense in this game to have weaker enemies succumb to room lockable abilities while the far fewer and much stronger "mini boss" style enemies can power through them. It would feel pointless to have EVERYTHING pose a minimal threat, especially in endurance SP, where I think this argument is stemming from. Even then, we're talking about much higher endurance levels where the game SHOULD be trying to wipe you out faster with more out of norms tactics like adding significantly more eximus enemies. At that point, very few frames are relying on most abilities and, instead, are using everything cohesively....or should be. On a side note, I am assuming it is the squishiness of some of these frames that is part of the issue? Ember aside (who is a mega tank), I can see your angle but that's why we have mods and arcanes to balance that. This could be why I am not seeing the CC frame issue as an issue. I hate the low shield gating method, so I build every frame to at least have high health and at least 1500 armor (arcane guardian's 900 armor is added to get there for some frames) so they can take some hits and allow mods like Adaptation and Shock Absorbers to get me to a comfortable, consistent level of defense. Maybe I'm in the minority by doing this, but this keeps frames like Limbo, Nyx, Yareli and Volt in a tanky enough spot for me to have a lot more fun with my full arsenal.

I don't get it. Are these eximus dudes so powerful that they just destroy you guys? C'mon, spit out: which CC frames are going through such a hopeless, dreadful, absolutely horrendous time that this discussion needs to keep coming up?

Which goes back to my first response to that: what you consider trash is not what I, and others, may consider trash. Beef up your arsenal, utilize the bane mods, throw some armor on your frames and take the challenge head on!

And I think this was the intention: to reintroduce a real team element back into the game. As it stands, SP Circuit, the Archons and the new cell modes have all been geared towards that direction and, if I remember some of the play style preferences some of the primary commenters in this thread prefer, it looks like solo style players are having a harder time feeling the update. The pessimist s will never be happy, but I'm curious to get more insight from the team loving players.

So, a challenge to use a random loadout is not a challenge? Honestly, think about that for a second guys. You guys are literally saying a challenge isn't a challenge. We're asked to do something unique and, if we accept and meet that challenge, we get a full rewards package. If this is not what a challenge is, then what is a challenge to you? Also, if I recall correctly, the system allows for the variants to be used. Is this correct? I'm still traveling so I haven't tried the update yet.

It's us players that cause the nerfs. We provide the feedback to DE in the workshop and the devs then adjust. It's more rare for the devs to nerf stuff on their own. Even still, the nerfs are never so big that the investment into the frame or weapons is wasted. It's only when the change makes absolute sense (AFKong, Skynax, Borderless Whipclaw Khora, etc), and, usually, the players already knew the nerf was going to arrive and secretly know it should've been nerfed.

Again, the point you're trying to make doesn't work. What you consider trash is not what I may consider trash. Doing millions of damage means nothing if you only need thousands or tens of thousands and the right build for the enemy you're fighting...which is EXACTLY why we have multiple loadout options for every single weapon we use. If we're too lazy to create a proper build for the new mission that has a specific enemy faction that we have (should have) scanned data on, then we should not be complaining about weapon quality. What I'm seeing a lot of is this pattern of players that just want to jump in and win, full stop. At lower levels, that's fine but not at higher levels and SP, where we're supposed to put some thought in and respect to the harder hitting, tougher enemies. The arguments are literally against applying an effort and I don't quite understand that. Is Warframe the only game that goes through this? In regards to difficulty, again, there will be players who will find this game mode very hard to do. Subjective talk about what is or isn't difficult won't matter for a while and most certainly won't be an important consideration on the forums...aka the place where we could claim our skill is better or worse than it actually is. More importantly, I think this game mode will 100% cause players to take a look at their inventory and, just like the Circuit, they'll have to pay some attention or possible get wrecked.

Can't wait to try it!! It looks like they watered it down to address the complainers but we'll see.

Honestly speaking, your idea is absolutely not the way to go. Warframe is exactly what it should be: a horde, looter shooter with a proudly overpowering arsenal. The AI in this game is better than you think, but nothing in the game is going to be allowed enough time to see us, take cover and initialize the tactic before dying. Nothing should be faster and stronger than us, unless it's some sort of boss that has what we have, or better. That last part is important because there are still a LOT of players that feel some of the normal content, and most of SP, is difficult and has ai actions that are too good. Of course, this is more due to knowing how to build and shoot but the concerns are there. If we really want to create a newer feeling gaming experience, then the world would have to find a way for forums and content creators to no longer allow the spoiling of the game.

I think the mistake is that people keep referencing hard content as the metric. It is not and should never be. We're supposed to assemble our best arsenal and go for it. It's just that DE has done a great job of making a liar out of OP, as melee is not vastly superior to guns. My Spectra Vandal, for example, has such a potent output, that I have to constantly remind myself that it only requires a half second press of the fire button to destroy fully armored SP gunners. I demo'd this to friends and blew their mind...because they were told the weapon was trash. I then used the old Veykor Hek and Dex Sybaris to prove similar strengths. I say all of this because we are already in a GREAT, FANTASTIC place in Warframe where 99.5% of every weapon, every frame, every companion is very much high performing, even in SP. It's the user who determines how good a weapon is and we are supposed to understand when a utility is more important than how fast to a kill. I think we need to stop trying to get some sort of boost to things all of the time. Eventually we'll just be at a mundane standstill because every weapon is asked to perform nearly the same. Do we really want to end up there?

Yep, just read it and I think we're on the same page, especially the visual pulsing syncing with the audio. Regarding the potential insulting replies, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I mostly see strong pushback when the person with the Idea decides to bash DE first, and then insert their idea. At that point, everyone is going to expect an epic idea that backs up the bash talk.

Actually, I was curious about your solution as well. You did suggest DE could've fixed the issue another way, which means you must've had a thought on it. Otherwise, why just say that?

I find the "can be unfun and tedious" comment to be a "workaround" type of way to say that the content is actually hard. I don't know why saying something is difficult is such a taboo thing to say in here. I've seen countless people get wrecked by the Jackal and they always say something similar...but I quickly point out to them that they just can't try to take the lasers and expect to survive. Like any game, it is difficult until the pattern is learned. After that, skill and timing does what it does best. It's a hella fun fight, and the "unfun and tedious" part of it is what makes it fun...IMO. That wasn't a dig on you @TARINunit9, it's just an observation of whenever that phrase is used, I notice it coincides with a part of the game that could be considered difficult.

Honestly, this is why we're in this back and forth with community opinions. There's a select few that feels the way you do. A gaming company has to move with the biggest crowd so, if you think the game is mostly boring, you're actually in the extreme minority. Otherwise, DE wouldn't be doing this seesaw style of adjusting. To be fair, neither your wish for upping the challenge (and challenge types) nor the other players wanting to ease up on the challenge throttle are bad (except for your "no debate" comment. You lost the war right there). The problem is DE is handling both sides pretty well and most players just don't see it. The "turn it up and then dial it down over time" model is literally a player base voting metric for DE to use for that adjustment. It's just that the majority wins and there isn't enough of your type of player to to win the debate. Going your way may cost serious revenue loss.

My apologies for the late response but your list kinda proves what I am saying. Your list of lesser performing weapons is completely different than mine, and you actually love the weapon I thought wouldn't be considered strong. That just sums up the message that it's just not a strong point to make regarding which weapons or warframes are trash and which aren't (and I'm DEEPLY upset that you placed my beloved monster Daikyu on your list. You...you take it off your list THIS INSTANT!!! GRRRR!!! 🤣). DE has simply done an incredible job of not wasting a players time with their inventory, even in SP.

Actually, all of the newly released content, that was designed to be more difficult, actually was proven to be so...to the majority of the player base. Forum "elite" don't count and should NEVER be counted. We share tips, tricks and builds as soon as one of us figures out the meta. We should know this thanks to the infamous amp numbers for Eidolon hunts. We constantly ruin our own experiences and then point to the devs for not making something challenging enough. In contrast, we see many pub players, chats messages and the forum posters struggling with Eidolons, begging for Railjack taxis, hunting for SP builds, upset about common sense nerfs and changes, etc. All of this isn't a bad thing, but it should be used as indicators as to why DE balances the challenge and domination aspects of the game. A select few of us post about how easy the game is...and the names are SUPER common. Maybe 10-15 posters tops...out of millions of players and thousands of registered forum users. Meanwhile, a FLOOD of first time posters write about nerfs like Wukongs, void dash and the AOE changes. This easily tells us why DE's decisions not as bad as we portray.

I think a bottom floor option could work. Similar to the purchasable room on the Zariman, DE could offer a special elevator that gives access to three additional rooms for decorating only. Since it is cosmetic only and doesn't effect any part of the game's progression, it definitely would not hurt to have it.

But that removes a critical income source to sustain the game. Neither DE nor the players could afford to have that as an option.

The issue here is the player base would explode on the forums about being "annoyed" at the tougher enemies, using every talking point possible as the reasoning: too bullet spongy, to hard to hit the weak point, why must I use magnetic damage, why must I use my operator amp, why damage attenuation, why this and I don't want to do that. We've all seen these patterns before and nothing DE does is going to change that. I think the solution is for DE to just keep going forward as they were. There are just too many players, of too many genres of gaming, with way too many emotional states, and at too many different levels of play in this game for any harder type of play or any restrictions based gameplay to go unscathed. Fortunately, DE is actually doing a terrific job of trying ideas and players are coming up with great ideas for DE to try. As long as that's the preferred path, (instead of the insults), then I say let's enjoy and try to stay within the reasonable bounds.