What's the point of all this power progression?

[Kimimoto]

LifeOfRio made a video pointing out how you don't need any power progression to do the hardest content in this game. Which is true, you can do anything with just a rank 30 warframe/weapon. Which posses a big red flag for Warframe, since power progression is a large reason to keep playing the game. It adds a huge amount of replay-ability. A reason to get on in-between content droughts, which was a major problem over the last year.

What's the point of all this power progression? Why do we have Catalysts/Reactors/Forma/Arcanes/PrimedMods/Rivens?

Do you think DE should make some harder content to give purpose to all this power progression? Scaling is obviously broken right now. Should they fix scaling first to make endurance viable, or should they just increase the level on missions?

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Elite Alerts

[Stormandreas]

I think he's missing the point of WF.

WF is a game about min maxing your builds to have the most efficient setups. Yes, you can do things easily without forma, yes, there's a lack of endgame, but, I'd love to see him run into Sanctuary Onslaught with NO forma, NO potatoes, NO arcanes, and do as well as others with all that.

Without min-maxing, there is literally nothing to do in WF. It's a non-aggressive competition between the community to make the best builds, get the best stats, and most efficient setups, whether it's needed or not.

[AdunSaveMe]

Fun.

[Volinus7]

To take advantage of players' compulsion. 

Warframe monetizes power progression and grinding speed after all. 

 

 

Warframe is a casul game, it makes shallow simplified stuffs look convoluted to create illusion of complexity, meta cheeses and mandatory stuffs are the testaments of illusions of choices also. 

Don't expect DE to do 108 phase Asian level boss that requires a space program team with IQ120+ to solve differential equations while fighting. Or new gear balance system that requires calculus skills to optimize in 3D diagram. 

Warframe power progressions never fit together and never fit in difficulties? That's because the point of Warframe is incremental clicking(to create dependence on power progression), if it doesn't pick your attention, it's basically pointless. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Volinus7

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

There is no point, that's why people say there's no endgame. All there is to do in the game is increase your power, but there's just nothing to do with your power once you've reached your goal, other than repeating the things you did to get there.

[Kimimoto]

27 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

run into Sanctuary Onslaught with NO forma, NO potatoes, NO arcanes, and do as well as others with all that.

You mean go to C rotation, because there's no point in going past that in ESO? Yeah I can do that without any forma/potatoes.

 

32 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Elite Alerts

While I am looking forward to elite alerts, they just match current sorties/floods. It's not going to be any harder and you're not going to need any power progression to complete it.

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

I think he's missing the point of WF.

 

30 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

Without min-maxing, there is literally nothing to do in WF.

So he's not missing the point? What's the point in farming more efficiently if there's nothing worth farming for, because you don't need anything besides rank 30 gear?

[taiiat]

there isn't one. 

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

the entire game is about collecting things so that you can play LESS.
in essence, we are punished for playing the game because playing it means there is less game.

if a game wants you to play it for thousands of hours for the rest of your life, playing it needs to give you MORE to do, not less.
as it is now, we play to unlock the privilege to have nothing to do and for Gameplay to become less and less interactive and more AFK. ergo i don't feel very rewarded.

yeah, Player Movement is amazing and truly unique in the industry, having such depth and control over our Characters.
it's just a shame there's nothing to do with it. while you're still collecting most of the stuff you don't feel the problem, because you still have many grinding goals. but once that razor thin veil isn't there anymore(having collected the vast majority of the trinkets), this game is basically the No Man's Sky E3 presentation. yeah this and that is neat and all, but what do you do?

Edited August 28, 2018 by taiiat

[Rambit23Z]

The whole game is about customizing and min-maxing. Been like that for 5 years. If people don't like that, then Warframe just isn't for them.

I would find The Sims extremely boring, not because it's bad, but because it's not my kind of game.

[Volinus7]

Most games that monetize power progression followed these stereotypes/methodologies. 

It's normal to sense pointlessness in these games once you shift standpoint. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Volinus7

[Kimimoto]

53 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe power progressions never fit together and never fit in difficulties?

That's not true, the void gave purpose to power progression because it scaled. I loved playing it because I could see how far I could push certain builds/frames/weapons. It added so much replay-ability to the game and kept me playing actively for hundreds of hours. That spark of incentive was lost in the SotR update and it really hasn't returned, which has left no purpose to power progression.

 

14 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

It's normal to sense pointlessness in these games once you shift standpoint. 

Are you really comparing bad predatory mobile games to Warframe? Bit much.

[Volinus7]

50 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

That's not true, the void gave purpose to power progression because it scaled. I loved playing it because I could see how far I could push certain builds/frames/weapons. It added so much replay-ability to the game and kept me playing actively for hundreds of hours. That spark of incentive was lost in the SotR update and it really hasn't returned, which has left no purpose to power progression.

 

Are you really comparing bad predatory mobile games to Warframe? Bit much.

Warframe has no corresponding difficulties for meta cheeses, and doing 8hrs survival isn't that much different from 5hrs survival. 

Bad predatory? You are wrong. These are main methodologies of most online games that monetize power progression. It's successful, widely used, and Warframe uses all of them. 

(a bit different from the clip that Warframe uses login rewards and time specific missions to help with dependence more than app notifications) 

 

P.S. Yeah SotR is the start of new age of Warframe. Let's see what happened after SotR, pavlovian kubrows chasing rivens on their tails, the switcheroo problems of sharing runs still persist from void key age, hema meme, even more FUBAR balance for the sake of flavor of the month, and if DE had used T-pose for Revenant ult, probably nobody would have suspected a thing. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Volinus7

[(XBOX)Byrixen]

I don't like general ruk he's too hard to beat.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

That spark of incentive was lost in the SotR update and it really hasn't returned, which has left no purpose to power progression.

there IS reason to play Endless Void Tears for a long time - ala that you get free Keys every 5 Keys used(slightly wish you didn't need to spend a Key each time to get the Endless Bonuses though), and they progressively go up in quality over longer play as well (eventually hitting Radiant). but unfortunately nobody plays them for that long, sometimes even being difficult to find anyone that wants to play more than one Wave in Endless Void Tears.
granted, the UI for Void Tears is so garbo that nobody would even know that it's there if someone didn't tell them............. but that's a different problem.

Edited August 28, 2018 by taiiat

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe has no corresponding difficulties for meta cheeses, and doing 8hrs survival isn't that much different from 5hrs survival. 

What's the harm in people doing a survival however long they want? Cheese or no? I've never liked cheesing anything besides loot caves like Draco. People like me are going to have the fun ruined because some people like to do crazy runs? And for what?

 

2 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Bad predatory? You are wrong. These are main methodologies of most online games that monetize power progression.

No, most online games don't put a wall in front of you and say "pay or come back tomorrow". That's not power progression. That's a paywall, and there's no other way around it.

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

You are wrong.

If you'd like to answer what the point of the power progression in the game is for aswell, I'd love to know.

If you could do all of WoW's current content at level 20, what are the other 100 levels for? Isn't that just a huge flaw in the game?

[--END--Rikutatis]

I love Warframe. I'm currently playing Monster Hunter World exactly because of this lack of any challenge or anything to do with all the gear and builds I acquired over the course of my time in the game. I already have everything that matters maxed out. So I can either keep stockpiling things I don't need and farming the last few MR levels with fodder weapons I'll never use, just to stand there in my orbiter looking at my pretty avatar skin, or I can go entertain myself with another game that's more challenging and engaging. But I still miss and crave Warframe, despite MHW having gameplay that is 10x better and more engaging, because WF has this atmosphere, aesthetics and background lore that is just unmatched by any other game or media. 

At this point Warframe is just a casual clicker game completely aimed at beginner to mid level players. The scarce few "endgame" content WF has atm is totally out of balance with the progression level and power curve of our builds. lvl 80-100 should be a starting point for endgame, not the ultimate level we fight against. Elite Alerts will do absolutely nothing to alleviate that. Without a complete rework of the entire combat system (or at least the energy economy), the only way DE can possibly give us any meaningful challenge is to revamp endless to make it start high (80s) scale faster and harder (so that you don't need to spend hours there to see enemy levels increase) and to give some purpose to scaling rewards. 

People who say high levels don't matter for anything and can be mindlessly cheesed are thinking of one or two specific frames/strats that can do that without effort (ivara CL, octavia). All the rest require at least some level of knowledge, cooperation and communication, not to mention it's a lot more challenging than what we currently have. The content is literally there, DE just needs to give it some better structure and rewards. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by --END--Rikutatis

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

What's the harm in people doing a survival however long they want? Cheese or no? I've never liked cheesing anything besides loot caves like Draco. People like me are going to have the fun ruined because some people like to do crazy runs? And for what?

 

No, most online games don't put a wall in front of you and say "pay or come back tomorrow". That's not power progression. That's a paywall, and there's no other way around it.

There is no harm but it's also pointless just as someone might do 24hrs. It is intended to take a lot of your time to reach high level, one of the reasons why DE is very reluctant about mission maker and lvl slider/scaling rate slider (it will be awfully awkward if player created mission is much more fun and takes a lot less time).

 

No one talked about wall, it's irrelevant. 

Walls in Warframe huh? 

Why would any Warframe player pays if every single one of them has the same thoughts like "free to play" and "get plats from trading", the basic limiting factor is slot limitations which they are all hit by and eventually someone will pay then trade. Basically whoever pays doesn't matter because the payment is ensured systemically. This is just the worst case scenario but if you count things like harsh pRNGs, long grind bars, progression resets(like forma), there are a lot of nudging stuffs that don't contribute a single bit of fun used to nag players about mtx in every corner. 

There're walls in Warframe but they are carefully hidden and used sparingly. 

It's a common knowledge that paywalls are getting obsolete especially the bold ones because even dumb players can spot them, nudging/subtle skinner box methodologies are more successful in long term, "the more you play the more you pay" and "sunk cost fallacy" are the keys. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Volinus7

[Volinus7]

1 hour ago, Kimimoto said:

If you'd like to answer what the point of the power progression in the game is for aswell, I'd love to know.

If you could do all of WoW's current content at level 20, what are the other 100 levels for? Isn't that just a huge flaw in the game?

The point of power progression in Warframe is monetization and player retention unless DE pull mtx off from all non-cosmetic items and scale down long grinding. It's also an obvious arbitrary trap, because it's natural for players to think about "big numbers" and "grind faster", pretty ironic that too much power devalued Warframe into cookies clicker. 

 

Player perspective is about fun, gratification, stress relief, etc. 

Dev perspective is about statistics and controllable behaviorism. 

Flaws on one side might be successes on the other. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Volinus7

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

Il y a 1 heure, --END--Rikutatis a dit :

I'm currently playing Monster Hunter World exactly because of this lack of any challenge or anything to do with all the gear and builds I acquired over the course of my time in the game. I already have everything that matters maxed out. So I can either keep stockpiling things

Funny, I come from Monster Hunter (huge player with 4 digits playing time along the serie I started playing with the first on psp.) and I totally feel like you regarding ... Monster Hunter.

Even worst, I had to do all the farm from the beginning at every new episode every time. Often the same monsters, same weapons, same system ... 

Monster Hunter and Warframe are pretty close to each other, almost like two different Cola.

[KochDerFrettchen]

To use the things you'd like to, instead of exclusively the things you must, obviously.

One could do any mission in this game with [insert FOTM frame] wielding [insert FOTM weapon], but why would you when with some effort you could use something fun?

8 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Warframe has no corresponding difficulties for meta cheeses

Then... don't cheese?  If you need some difficulty in your life, but you find little that challenges your cheese, don't use it.

I tugged a few thousand hours out of the first Dark Souls game.  A game with no random map gen, a smaller selection of equipment, simpler and stiffer movement.  The challenge was gone too within the first few hundred hours, knowing every move every enemy has tucked away and what gear demolishes who does that to you.  It's funny the first time you absolutely dunce an enemy, it feels good to be efficient at doing it for a little while, but that itch settles in soon.  Is it really fun to end this fight in a few seconds?  Why am I doing this?

If you hit that point with a game, you're realizing that you don't play it to be a god.  Sure, it's fun working your way up to that level of power, but many of us derive little enjoyment from it after the initial glimmer wears off.  I'm playing an action game, not a sim. 

I hear WoW will pointlessly increment the levels of the same content for you to repeat, if you're into that sort of thing

Edited August 28, 2018 by KochDerFrettchen

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

9 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Elite Alerts

Not gonna be enough. Level 100 enemies is still just trash mobs to be honest, no need for a solid build for that, just a slight tweak and you're good for sortie level content.

9 hours ago, Stormandreas said:

I think he's missing the point of WF.

WF is a game about min maxing your builds to have the most efficient setups. Yes, you can do things easily without forma, yes, there's a lack of endgame, but, I'd love to see him run into Sanctuary Onslaught with NO forma, NO potatoes, NO arcanes, and do as well as others with all that.

Without min-maxing, there is literally nothing to do in WF. It's a non-aggressive competition between the community to make the best builds, get the best stats, and most efficient setups, whether it's needed or not.

Well not true. You'll do fine in eso with a half baked build, the enemies there isn't full scale enemies anyway.

As for the point of warframe, use to be raids, long runs and sorties, now we got sorties left as "high level" content. Eidolons is easy solo content, eso is no exception and sorties have always been easy solo. Even before we got bs rivens. Now we have more powerful weapons and no where to go to take advantage of it. The joke that fashion frame is true end game have gotten out of hand and it has left warframe as noob simulator 2018.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Solution's really simple, just give us higher level content. Doesn't have to be for grind, let the grind be easy so that high level AND low level players can do it. Bite size, casual, endurance should all be able to get what they need, but for fun, let us fight enemy levels that we are built to fight. Us higher level players need somewhere to go other than the 1000th sortie.

Maybe give us a sigil or syandana or something, but this is honestly the best solution for everyone. People who can't do it will complain of course, as is always the case, but it's really of no concern, as I'm sure the vast majority of players will be able to, and those who cannot will learn. They won't need to get upset because there's nothing they're missing out on, and if they really really want to get the simple rewards of the content, they'll just get better over time as they try. That's how we all got better at any game isn't it?

[Volinus7]

40 minutes ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

Then... don't cheese?  If you need some difficulty in your life, but you find little that challenges your cheese, don't use it.

Indeed, but where's the indicator that you should stop the progression before it trivializes Warframe? 

Turn the problem upside down and upside down again, what is better, pin that indicator down or create corresponding difficulties, the funny part is DE refuse to acknowledge the problem in the first place lol. 

Let the complaints about endgame and pointless progression in Warframe continue... 

[Kimimoto]

9 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

There're walls in Warframe but they are carefully hidden and used sparingly. 

They don't outright stop you from playing though, and getting more slots is easy to farm out even for a new player.

 

9 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

player retention

The current system isn't retaining many players, since power progression has no point. The absolute immense amount of replay-ability that power progression could provide isn't required.  DE can't really monetize power progression when it's not even required to complete anything in the game.

 

5 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

Let the complaints about endgame and pointless progression in Warframe continue... 

Basically saying don't fix this glaring issue with the game. There's no issue move on, even though people bring this up everyday. Pretty done with these ideas, since it's not productive.