Analysis: The heavy inflation of rivens due to platinum economy and lack of disposition monitoring - leading to unsustainable prices and possible countermeasures

[ConzyFTW]

2 hours ago, Zanchak said:

The fun bit is, rivens don't really give you anything. Maybe your internet friends will ooo and ahhh at your mighty stats, as you all swing your little swords so impressively.. but, end of the day, all you MIGHT get is yellow numbers at the end of any old normal mission. Good job, well worth hundreds of dollars Im sure.

You could say the same for any expensive commodity, people simply find joy in the little, or expensive thing. Why spend hundreds of thousands on a nice sports car, when a crappy station wagon can get you from A to B. It’s because of the sound of the engine, or the added seat warmers, or the brand that makes everyone jealous. Rivens are the exact same.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

21 hours ago, Yatazanami said:

loo at this, LOOOK AT IT ! 

 

how the hell is this acceptable ? what do you say to this ? nothing ? well i have plenty on my head right now but i'll replay by this 

this is not conspiracy theory anymore , DE is Shamefully profiting out of those (crutches) they created themselves ,

they refused to regulate the riven disposition weekly and now we know why 

to take advantage of this current riven disaster so they can use it for they're Primes Accesses Weapons

they have figured a way to make us Cough Up money be it the Prime Access buyers , or the Riven Monopolists

this is the most outrages Ecosystem i have ever seen in a game.

Nice stats, I don’t think this weapon needs a Riven.

[FlyingDice]

TBH I think most of the ranting about rivens is sour-grapes stuff from people unwilling to let other people have nice things and likewise unwilling to buy rivens or grind them out.

Lemme put it another way: I've got rivens for the Opticor, Vectis, Amprex, Tiberon, Latron, and Corinth, along with a bunch of others in less demand. I got about half of those as drops, paid 70p for one, ~200p for two, and ~450p for one. I also play a lot of weapons I don't have rivens for. Do I feel disadvantaged when I do, or wish I was using a weapon I had a riven on? No. Would I stop using these weapons if the rivens disappeared tomorrow? Also no.

If you want rivens, grind sorties out every day and lurk trade chat for deals instead of begging DE to nerf them.

It's not even on the same level as the incessant whining about maiming strike, because that at least had a visible impact on others' experience.

[ElKayJae]

4 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

If you want rivens, grind sorties out every day and lurk trade chat for deals instead of begging DE to nerf them

Not nerf but balance, strong and popular weapons will have low disposition and unpopular/weak weapon will have high disposition, it's that simple. It was meant to level the weak and strong weapons, not to make the strong weapons even stronger, outclassing everything else.

That was what DE intended anyway until they got lazy to monitor the riven dispositions

[Buttaface]

Didn't read yet another "wrong with rivens/riven analysis" thread. Rivens are vanity items for bored vets to fiddle with, nothing more, nothing less. They have a negligible impact on the game's damage structure as a matter of fact and not opinion. The illusion that WF is a tiered gear game with gear requirements to complete the content is a player-fabricated hoax. If people want to spend real $$ on vanity items or ask high prices for vanity items, that's their business.

Constant riven whinging, whether it's couched as "analysis" or whatever is much ado about nothing. If rivens make DE more money to develop better content in WF, they are a great addition to the game and working as intended. It seems they are accomplishing their function well, so no changes to them needed whatsoever.

With thousands of rivens pouring into the game daily, riven prices will decrease. They are already cheap for lesser known weapons.

[Rakosta_Kai]

12 hours ago, LocoWithGun said:

If platinum buyers aren't buying these rivens though then who is? Either no one is buying them in which case riven are inert as far as economy is concerned or high roller traders are buying them. That would mean that rich traders are funneling plat in smaller amounts from platinum buyers and then circulating that plat between themselves with rivens or hoarding it. So that would make rich traders themselves a platinum sink of the non-riven market. The platinum you pay has to come from somewhere, someone had to buy it. And if they didn't buy it in 5k amount just to buy a riven then a trader had to funnel smaller purchase amounts to afford those high prices.

Couple things...

It's not an either/or scenario...it can be both and more besides.

Traders aren't a sink for the non-riven market....The non-riven market has natural competition in other players..The riven market does not have this because each Riven can be unique..i.e. people can (and do) put any price they want to on the item and let market forces dictate.

Because of the fact that this game has very few relevant (true)sinks, the bulk of the plat being used to purchase stuff via trade is going to be old. The speed of inflation and prices bear this out as well.

Funnily enough, The very OP in this thread cites discount platinum purchasers as one of the problems (in their opinion) for why prices have gone up.

12 hours ago, LocoWithGun said:

Either some platinum buyers are indeed sinking their plat into rivens or rich traders are juggling that plat between themselves and hence removing it from the non-riven market anyway. The scenario where absurd riven prices cripple plat sales just doesn't make much sense to me.

This is not an either/or premise either... It presumes that the same 1 plat can't be used to do both things. What you are calling a "sink" doesn't exist. As long as the players have it, it's still in circulation.

There is no AH or consignment system to tie platinum up and there are, as I noted above, very few things that remove platinum from circulation...Because of this, you can assign any possible function to that plat because it's still in the players hands.

Spoiler

 

Let me see if I can make the notion of absurd riven prices affecting plat sales make sense..

36000 (absurd) riven gets purchased...which is the most likely manner in which is was purchased?

A)Player traded for the amount in platinum and purchased it.

B)Player spent ~$1,799.99 (usd) + applicable taxes on Platinum to purchase it.

C) Combination of both A and B.

...I think we can both agree that the answer is probably going to be either A or C with B as least likely.

 

So let's take a "not absurd" (still really absurd) number and do the same thing... Let's use 5000 plat— we see that amount offered all the time for rivens.

That's ~$199.99(used)+ applicable taxes (unless there was a discount which you can only hope for but not rely on.) 

The average person fitting into the demographic for this game wouldn't be able to afford that either and the answer would still most likely be either A or C.

The average player in this game isn't a power trader, or even a particularly heavy trader..I would posit that most of the players in this game burn their unwanted rivens for endo as opposed to endeavoring to transmute them...

In order for Options A or C to hold true, you pretty much have to be a power player...The riven system is setup that way.

Which leaves casual players having to pay that whole amount... Entirely possible, but the median pricing right now for rivens would suggest it's not even close to routine.

Now let's take a completely not absurd amount like 80-100 plat...Then A,B, or C would apply.

 

Simply put, the higher the prices go, the less likely plat is going to get purchased to fund it because it's simply not affordable... and the prices are still going up.

That's my point.

12 hours ago, LocoWithGun said:

It's not like either of us have data to prove anything but just logically how does people not being able to afford rivens affect plat sales? Are they discouraged by seeing those prices? Presumably people will still buy plat in amounts to buy conveniences, prime parts, mods and cosmetics and rivens change absolutely nothing about that.

I complete agree with you...

So do you think rivens were implemented solely for F2P players and Power traders? Since we have no control over what gets unveiled we typically wind up at the mercy of those groups...This is the case in practice.

Were the notions about correcting imbalances, breathing new life into old weapons, and creating new ways to play all for just those segments of the population? Everyone else is paying to experience these things.

Applying your logic (which is completely sound) suggests that people who only purchase plat are expected to provide revenue for the game but not get access to all portions of it in the process.

That might make sense to some but it doesn't make sense to me.

[Hypernaut1]

I'm still waiting to hear why it's bad if DE is making money from gram rivens. So what. It would only become a problem it EVERYONE starts running around with a gram.... So far that hasn't happened yet with tiberon do I don't see why it would happen with gram. 

It doesn't matter how powerful a weapon is as long as people don't feel pigeon-holed into using that weapon. That's how it was before rivens

[Peter]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm still waiting to hear why it's bad if DE is making money from gram rivens. So what. It would only become a problem it EVERYONE starts running around with a gram.... So far that hasn't happened yet with tiberon do I don't see why it would happen with gram. 

It doesn't matter how powerful a weapon is as long as people don't feel pigeon-holed into using that weapon. That's how it was before rivens

Also, what's the problem if i want to buy a riven for Gram? AND what's the problem if DE will profit with that?

It is clear that all those who complain is because they can not get a Riven and / or do not want to pay for a Riven.

Also, I wonder what these have to do with the lives of others? each one spends with what he wants and in the way he wants, no one has the right to decide for others what is right.

"Oh, Rivens are a cancer because it only serves to DE profit."

And? DE is a company and not a charity, they have their expenses like any company, and no one has the right to decide whether or not to profit from it, do you think it's bad? stop playing then.

Warframe is a 100% free game, there is NOTHING (package founder does not count) that you can not get without having to spend real money, and I am proof of that.

Now regarding the layout, the DE has already said that it is looking for a solution to this, now do not expect a Soma Prime MR 7 to hit like a Tiberon Prime MR 14.

We get Elite Shrine and now we're getting elite alerts, and to deal with that we're going to need stronger weapons, we're not in 2013 anymore where the biggest enemy was at level 80, we're heading for End Game, it's one thing to use a Gram Prime in mob level 60, it's another thing to get into the elite alert and quit killing everything, something you can never do without the correct setup, Gram Prime is a MR 14 weapon, and we have a reason for it.

I do not know how the moderator has not locked these topics yet, all I see are people misjudging those who really support the game, while these in the forum do nothing but demonstrate all their selfishness wanting to spoil the joy of this galley.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Peter

[LupisV0lk]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

It is clear that all those who complain is because they can not get a Riven and / or do not want to pay for a Riven.

Also, I wonder what these have to do with the lives of others? each one spends with what he wants and in the way he wants, no one has the right to decide for others what is right.

I do not know how the moderator has not locked these topics yet, all I see are people misjudging those who really support the game, while these in the forum do nothing but demonstrate all their selfishness wanting to spoil the joy of this galley.

Yeah, i'm starting to think that's the case.

It's rather telling how little people know of the system when their biggest "fix" they want won't fix anything in the short run and makes things worse in both the short run and long run.

[Floppinger]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Peter:

......Gram Prime is a MR 14 weapon......

So the difference between a MR 14 weapon and a MR 13 weapon (Galatine Prime) is a 5 riven disposition vs a 1 disposition. Seems legit.....

I can get behind the idea of new weapons releasing with a 5 disposition regardless of how good they are, but not when it takes DE one and half years or something to adjust them.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

2 minutes ago, Floppinger said:

So the difference between a MR 14 weapon and a MR 13 weapon (Galatine Prime) is a 5 riven disposition vs a 1 disposition. Seems legit.....

I can get behind the idea of new weapons releasing with a 5 disposition regardless of how good they are, but not when it takes DE one and half years or something to adjust them.

why does this matter at all?   It doesn't come auto-equipped with a riven, for one.  It's gotta hold it's own for those playing it without a riven 😛

Also, you can mod Dual Heat Swords properly and go well into Sorties...I've done it...without issue OR Riven...

So, what's the difference between bringing a shotgun or a cannon to a fight when your opponent is a cardboard cutout, relatively speaking, either way?  There is no difference.  In other words, people are acting like rivens are ruining the game, but they're only offering alternative play, nothing more.  They certainly aren't hurting anyone.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

21 hours ago, Yatazanami said:

that is a giant pile of strawmans you get there baby 🤪 it would be a shame if i debunk every single one of them with valid points and hard facts (i am coming to you keep tight) 

Waiting....

I love how every time someone argues against you, it's magically a "strawman".   I don't think that means what you think it means...

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

21 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

And how exactly are all these related to OP's post?

OP's talking how the skyrocketing market will ruin the trade chat and in-game economy and how DE's not regulating the riven deposition as they should and you're complaining...things

No, OP is complaining that things are "too expensive" and wants DE to force 'em to be cheaper so they're easier to get.

There's no chance at any "economic bubble" popping here.  At all.   When -ANYTHING- gets more expensive than consumers value it at (are willing to pay for it), the item in question simply won't sell.  When it doesn't sell, the sellers are forced to either sit on it or reduce their asking price.   

Equilibrium is found in a free market naturally.   Noone is FORCING anyone to pay anything for any items at all.  THAT is what I, as well as several other Tenno, have stated here....and this guy just keeps on going and going, spouting his misunderstandings of basic economics.  That isn't how it works.  That's not how ANY of this works.

[Omega]

Just now, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

No, OP is complaining that things are "too expensive" and wants DE to force 'em to be cheaper so they're easier to get.

There's no chance at any "economic bubble" popping here.  At all.   When -ANYTHING- gets more expensive than consumers value it at (are willing to pay for it), the item in question simply won't sell.  When it doesn't sell, the sellers are forced to either sit on it or reduce their asking price.   

Equilibrium is found in a free market naturally.   Noone is FORCING anyone to pay anything for any items at all.  THAT is what I, as well as several other Tenno, have stated here....and this guy just keeps on going and going, spouting his misunderstandings of basic economics.  That isn't how it works.  That's not how ANY of this works.

 

My posts have nothing to do with me complaining about riven pricing.  
"This is NOT another rant thread regarding the prices of rivens - this is identifying the issue with suggestions on what can be done to alleviate the problem."

There is a clear correlation with regards to high prices and high disposition rivens for meta weapons which should not exist.  If DE actually monitors their riven system by taking a look at dispositions we should not be seeing rivens valued on such extremes.

 

 

 

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 minute ago, Omega said:

 

My posts have nothing to do with me complaining about riven pricing.  
"This is NOT another rant thread regarding the prices of rivens - this is identifying the issue with suggestions on what can be done to alleviate the problem."

There is a clear correlation with regards to high prices and high disposition rivens for meta weapons which should not exist.  If DE actually monitors their riven system by taking a look at dispositions we should not be seeing rivens valued on such extremes.

 

 

 

Apologies.  I meant @Yatazanami and their continued rants.

As for your intent for this, there really isn't anything DE can do.  Nerf one meta, another rises.  That's the -players- doing that, and there's little DE can do to counter that.  Same thing has happened with various frame tweaks.


The only way, in a free economy, to "bring prices down" is for the buyers to stop paying higher prices.

A Lamborghini might SEEM expensive to you or me, but clearly enough people out there find it "worth it" or they wouldn't still be selling at their asking prices, right?

Same exact thing holds true of Rivens.

For DE to come in and forcibly limit our transactions would not only hurt them, but it'd kill the free market.  

Fact is, Rivens are not required for any gameplay in Warframe whatsoever, and so really don't demand a fix.  This is a Player v Player issue, not a Player v DE issue, as DE had no place in setting prices as what they are.



Heck, if they were EASIER to obtain, this thread would just be replaced with a "It's not fun or fair how -EVERYONE- has a Gram Riven!  They need to be made RARE and SPECIAL again!  This is a slap in the face, DE!"  ....seen it a million times already with other changes.

 

[Peter]

25 minutes ago, Floppinger said:

So the difference between a MR 14 weapon and a MR 13 weapon (Galatine Prime) is a 5 riven disposition vs a 1 disposition. Seems legit.....

I can get behind the idea of new weapons releasing with a 5 disposition regardless of how good they are, but not when it takes DE one and half years or something to adjust them.

Gram Prime evidently came with the post rework 3.0 attributes, this is evident in his combo is capped at 2.0x , stop repeating what others say and use your head a little, we are close to rework 3.0, Gram Prime will not be the only one with these attributes.

[(PSN)nating51]

14 hours ago, FlyingDice said:

TBH I think most of the ranting about rivens is sour-grapes stuff from people unwilling to let other people have nice things and likewise unwilling to buy rivens or grind them out.

Lemme put it another way: I've got rivens for the Opticor, Vectis, Amprex, Tiberon, Latron, and Corinth, along with a bunch of others in less demand. I got about half of those as drops, paid 70p for one, ~200p for two, and ~450p for one. I also play a lot of weapons I don't have rivens for. Do I feel disadvantaged when I do, or wish I was using a weapon I had a riven on? No. Would I stop using these weapons if the rivens disappeared tomorrow? Also no.

If you want rivens, grind sorties out every day and lurk trade chat for deals instead of begging DE to nerf them.

It's not even on the same level as the incessant whining about maiming strike, because that at least had a visible impact on others' experience.

Definitely disagree. The real problems to me are two:

1. how the economy in the game is totally broken due to riven market. Selling a riven for 3k plat is a total bullS#&$. A year and half ago, when I started, that didn't happen that much. Now, if you check the trade chat, it happens quite regularly. As a non-direct consequence of that, all other stuff seems to have lost all its effective value: the market is almost all about rivens. Prime parts worth almost anything (except when a prime access comes out) and I swear I've met mr22+ guys (with houndreds and houndreds of plat spent on rivens) making the beggar with a newbie who was trying to sell an augment for 10 plat. That's simply toxic, to me...and it *HAS* a visibile impact on others' experience.

2. how unbalanced the riven disposition system is.......this needs no explanation: it's factual reality. 

Oh, and I'm talking on my mr24 account with almost all the stuff I need and 30+ lovely rivens in the inventory (74 rolls on my arca plasmor one...).😉

Edited September 27, 2018 by (PS4)nating51

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Riven handlers abusing players poor experience with Modding and Mechanics, spreading false rumors, that only with “Godly” Riven you can play WF. Nothing more nothing less.

[Kraitharch]

The whole concept of rivens is bad, imo. To much of random factor. DE can get away with that only because Warframe is PvE game.     

Best solution: just make rivens untradable 😄 

Edited September 27, 2018 by Kraitharch

[(PSN)nating51]

23 minutes ago, Kraitharch said:

 

Best solution: just make rivens untradable 😄 

I was thinking that as a joke on yesterday, but definitely to me it would be a great solution...

Edited September 27, 2018 by (PS4)nating51

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

2 hours ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

Definitely disagree. The real problems to me are two:

1. how the economy in the game is totally broken due to riven market. Selling a riven for 3k plat is a total bullS#&$. A year and half ago, when I started, that didn't happen that much. Now, if you check the trade chat, it happens quite regularly. As a non-direct consequence of that, all other stuff seems to have lost all its effective value: the market is almost all about rivens. Prime parts worth almost anything (except when a prime access comes out) and I swear I've met mr22+ guys (with houndreds and houndreds of plat spent on rivens) making the beggar with a newbie who was trying to sell an augment for 10 plat. That's simply toxic, to me...and it *HAS* a visibile impact on others' experience.

2. how unbalanced the riven disposition system is.......this needs no explanation: it's factual reality. 

Oh, and I'm talking on my mr24 account with almost all the stuff I need and 30+ lovely rivens in the inventory (74 rolls on my arca plasmor one...).😉

Agreed.

Yesterday i had a buyer wanted a maxxed [primed flow] for 50p lol i said nty and buyer said it was due to buying a rubico and gram rivens for 5kp total leaving 50p to buy other stuff.

I said hayyyll nooo and try 250p for maxxed primed mod or wait 6 months to a year till baro has it.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

Definitely disagree. The real problems to me are two:

1. how the economy in the game is totally broken due to riven market. Selling a riven for 3k plat is a total bullS#&$. A year and half ago, when I started, that didn't happen that much. Now, if you check the trade chat, it happens quite regularly. As a non-direct consequence of that, all other stuff seems to have lost all its effective value: the market is almost all about rivens. Prime parts worth almost anything (except when a prime access comes out) and I swear I've met mr22+ guys (with houndreds and houndreds of plat spent on rivens) making the beggar with a newbie who was trying to sell an augment for 10 plat. That's simply toxic, to me...and it *HAS* a visibile impact on others' experience.

2. how unbalanced the riven disposition system is.......this needs no explanation: it's factual reality. 

Oh, and I'm talking on my mr24 account with almost all the stuff I need and 30+ lovely rivens in the inventory (74 rolls on my arca plasmor one...).😉

1. That is really only the riven market, which can be completely avoided. If rivens actually caused an inflation on the regular market you would see a massive increase in prices, and not a decrease. The decrease comes naturally on prime sets the further you get because more and more people already have them so the demand is low. That is simple economics101. Prime parts are still selling for 5:10 or 5:12, that hasnt changed in a long long time. Prime parts needed for syndicate tribute still sell for 20-30p. It is only the full frame sets that have dropped in value because there are so many of them around with very low demand.

Augur and Gladiator mods still sell for 60-80p, the price range they dropped to when they got more common from bounty rewards. Primed mods still sell for 100 to 250 depending on rank and mod.

2. Dispo may be a bit screwed up regarding a few weapons but the majority is in the spot they should be out of a performance perspective. There are a few that needs a lower dispo and some a slightly higher.

[(PSN)nating51]

25 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

1. That is really only the riven market, which can be completely avoided. If rivens actually caused an inflation on the regular market you would see a massive increase in prices, and not a decrease. The decrease comes naturally on prime sets the further you get because more and more people already have them so the demand is low. That is simple economics101. Prime parts are still selling for 5:10 or 5:12, that hasnt changed in a long long time. Prime parts needed for syndicate tribute still sell for 20-30p. It is only the full frame sets that have dropped in value because there are so many of them around with very low demand.

Augur and Gladiator mods still sell for 60-80p, the price range they dropped to when they got more common from bounty rewards. Primed mods still sell for 100 to 250 depending on rank and mod.

2. Dispo may be a bit screwed up regarding a few weapons but the majority is in the spot they should be out of a performance perspective. There are a few that needs a lower dispo and some a slightly higher.

1. Wrong statement. Before rivens came out, wf market was *really* different. The physiological decrease on prime parts' prices due to more diffusion is a thing (and it alwayis was), the complete devalue of things is another. I don't know where you play wf, but ps4 trade chat is completely toxic right now. You once didn't see prime wf sets sold for 20p. The "basic economics" to where you point out is pretty wrong. That kind of horizontal inflation doesn't actually exist in real life economics, even with third party regulations (which we haven't in a game like wf, of course).

And I definitely disagree to the point "very low demand", not for saying that probably on PC things works different (idk), but in ps4 you won't sell a prime mod unranked at 100p nor a syndacate part for 20-30p, expecially now. 

2. Yeah, I agree on that, instead...maybe more than just "a few" which need adjustment...

Edited September 27, 2018 by (PS4)nating51

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (PS4)nating51 said:

1. Wrong statement. Before rivens came out, wf market was *really* different. The physiological decrease on prime parts' prices due to more diffusion is a thing (and it alwayis was), the complete devalue of things is another. I don't know where you play wf, but ps4 trade chat is completely toxic right now. You once didn't see prime wf sets sold for 20p. The "basic economics" to where you point out is pretty wrong. That kind of horizontal inflation doesn't actually exist in real life economics, even with third party regulations (which we haven't in a game like wf, of course).

And I definitely disagree to the point "very low demand", not for saying that probably on PC things works different (idk), but in ps4 you won't sell a prime mod unranked at 100p nor a syndacate part for 20-30p, expecially now. 

2. Yeah, I agree on that, instead...maybe more than just "a few" which need adjustment...

I'm on PC and have seen a change in prices since I started by the end of last year, except prime sets dropping in price due to way too high supply now. Only gameplay choices impact the non-riven economy. And the inflation situation has happened several times throughout the last milennia and still does during this. Though there is less of a risk for it now. Inflation aswell as a lack of supply drives prices up. In Warframe we dont see prices rising more than on rivens and prices getting lower on things in high supply. And that is not due to inflation, that is due to popularity in the case of rivens. Just as maiming strike lost massive value due to small melee change and talk of the big 3.0,

And the rivens as a whole dont sell for the absurd amounts people claim. People simply try to squeeze that much out of them, but as shown in the screenshots those rivens arent big sellers if you have the slightest group of working braincells when you're on the hunt for a riven. I'm not chocked by the good rivens going for a few thousand, alot of resources and time have gone into them for those rolls, that must be taken into consideration too, how people value their time grinding kuva aswell as spending it on the rivens to get those stats.

Also the console market is widely different in prices, everything is simply that much cheaper.

[(PSN)nating51]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Inflation aswell as a lack of supply drives prices up. In Warframe we dont see prices rising more than on rivens and prices getting lower on things in high supply.

Here we completely disagree. I see that *exactly* in the opposite way: I see riven prices grow up and things "in high supply" getting lower and and lower in price. Just repeating myself: I definitely agree with those who have seen a substantial change in the game economy after rivens came out and not in a positive way. Riven system, at the end of the day, is a huge slot machine that atm make almost the whole market in warframe...and I usually dislike slot machines. In addition, to me, the flat increase/decrease proportion of prices you underline in your post simply does not occour. A matter of different perception, maybe, dunno...

Cheers.

Edited September 27, 2018 by (PS4)nating51