"power creep" (and rivens" =/= satan.

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

You do realize that the only thing that makes a player feel unique about their accomplishment is the uniqueness of the riven and its concept of variation. There's almost no identical riven out there, and they also serve as a method of breathing possibilities to otherwise statically existing mods. For example, you cannot get more range than +165% since only Primed reach is the sole mod that does so. A riven becomes an exception to that case. The role that riven mods perform is similarly to how other games allow you to replay content with modifiers to keep things interested and unique, like cheat codes and switching characters in those lego console games.

Well I don't use cheat codes either. And I never played a lego console game. And I still wish rivens didn't exist in Warframe.

[Damocles]

Just now, rune_me said:

Well I don't use cheat codes either. And I never played a lego console game. And I still wish rivens didn't exist in Warframe.

Sad to hear that, but may I know why exactly?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Ok.

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, Descent-of-Damocles said:

Sad to hear that, but may I know why exactly?

Because, as the discussion of this thread implies, they are nothing but power creep. And power creep should be avoided whenever possible.

As you said yourself, if a riven allows you to get more reach than what "normal" mods do, then it's power creep. Introducing primed mods were power creep. Introducing rivens to go even further than that, is even more power creep.

I don't believe for a second rivens will ever go away. I just wish they would.

[Atekron]

riven disposition should be dynamic and automatically adjusting to weapon popularity, that was the reason they introduce it in a first place, or they should get rid of it completely

riven mods are good addition to the game, but they don't have consistent way of getting them, except market, and too grindy to reroll

 

[Peter]

2 minutes ago, Atekron said:

riven disposition should be dynamic and automatically adjusting to weapon popularity, that was the reason they introduce it in a first place, or they should get rid of it completely

riven mods are good addition to the game, but they don't have consistent way of getting them, except market, and too grindy to reroll

 

Riven disposition should not exist.

[Damocles]

1 minute ago, Peter said:

Riven disposition should not exist.

Someone once suggested that. To make all riven dispositions equal and to rebalance the base stats of weapons instead

[Atekron]

1 minute ago, Peter said:

Riven disposition should not exist.

probably, at first DE wanted to get people use more weapons, that's why popular one got poor disposition, now after weapon rebalance and meta shifts they should just make all weapons disposition neutral

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 23 minutes, Atekron a dit :

riven disposition should be dynamic and automatically adjusting to weapon popularity, that was the reason they introduce it in a first place, or they should get rid of it completely

Problem with that is that people would always focus on "this week/month's Meta weapons!" and things like that, while those who used the mid tier weapons for fun with either strong or basic rivens would see their fav weps turn into powercreep for some time, then get a lower disposition than before, then higher, then lower, etc. Actualy, that woud be the case for most weapons, as it would be easy to exploit. 

Soma has a 1/5 disposition. By adjusting on a monthly/weekly/wtv popularity basis, people would stop using it for some time just so the disposition, once the monthly/weekly/wtv changes arrive, goes up a lot since it wasn't used, causing a huge buff to the rivens, making the weapon extremely broken until the next changes, while the other weapons that were part of the previous Meta become weak and unused. Then, when the next changes arrive, the Soma would return to it's low disposition due to it being overused since it was "this week/month's Meta", while the previous Meta returns to it's higher disposition, and so on. It would simply make the Meta switch from one thing to another everytime, but it would also make it even more broken and unbalanced. 

Rivens were supposed to make low tier weapons usable on a more reguar basis by boosting their stats more than the current Meta. The problem with rivens is that some weapons don't benefit much from those insane stats (Aklatos with a god riven won't be as good as Akstilletos with a good build without riven, for example) because their base stats are too low (think about the Atrax Riven removal), while top tier weapons already have great innate stats that can still benefit a lot from great rivens. 

[DrBorris]

Oh yes, the classic "everything is fine and you should be content with the status quo." 

 

How dare anyone want something to be better? Like, that would require change, and clearly change is not neccisary, what we have is fine. Progress is just a waste of energy, energy should be spent on more of the same. In order to maximize your chance for success, risk must be kept to an absolute minimum. 

Oh, and don't listen to those that have an opinion that is against the status quo either. They are clearly delusional and just want to take from others. If I am happy with something, you can't take it away, it is my right. They don't have a right to want anything more, you get what you get and you don't have a fit. 

 

 

I am only a little salty... maybe I should take a break from the Forums for a few days. 

[Toran]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb rune_me:

What's wrong with crying for balance? In a coop horde shooter? 

You can call it nonsense all you want, but truth is, it makes perfect sense. It is in fact the most sensible thing said in this thread so far.

In my opinion, of course. Feel free to feel like punching someone hard. Doesn't really change my opinion.

What's wrong with it? Balance is a bloody illusion. Sorry you still didn't get that after 5 years of Warframe...you guys are just playing whack-a-mole: nerf one thing, another pops up - it's Warframe's Circle of Life. What you stubborn geniuses don't realize is that the latest power creep is just the small top of a wide iceberg, there are tons of alternatives that are just marginally less powerful. To you it makes perfect sense, for me it's just wasted energy.

Instead of focusing on the latest witch-hunt, you should cry for challenging content, for something that requires actual skill (aim, team coordination, timing, spatial awareness etc., pretermined loadout challenge, blacklisted weapons, self-imposed mission modificators etc.) or something that is just plain fun (my hope's on ship-to-ship battle).

vor 18 Stunden schrieb rune_me:

Nah, not really. I have a riven for most of the weapons I use. I have a 5 figure plat amount and nothing left to spend it on. And I still want rivens nerfed. Actually, I would prefer they'd be removed all together.

Yeah, yeah. Reset the world and use a pointy stick while sitting on a pile of cash..

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Descent-of-Damocles:

OP's 3 points are true, DE constantly does experiments on us like releasing onslaught to see what exploits we would use, veldt to see how we would react, in fact PoE was one big social experiment to see how we take open world concepts. So when veldt got trashed on, DE knew that moving on, things had to have a hierarchy, which means reasonable power creep increments over time, at the cost of other aspects, like range and speed (for those who haven't noticed yet)

On that subject, often things have trade off, like his example, Mesa's OP 4 with a sacrifice to efficiency and energy consumption. Of course they can be compensated for by using mods, which means you are giving mod slots for other things like range, duration and power strength. Gram gives up speed/range for crit/status, tiberon gives up full auto for crit or gives up crit for status, etc. Everything is a trade off, and depending on what you value, you may not agree what is overpowered.

Lastly the riven market is a big plat pool for DE. Salty players who are given this plat barrier to entry want nerf to invalidate the richer veterans. If you analyze this from a neutral perspective, the problem is the 1/5 disposition weapons out there. Their rivens amount to nothing compared to removing the riven itself for a mod slot to put in a primed mod. 1/5 literally doesn't amount to much, so the real direction is buffing those dispositions instead. (For melee, range and scalable damage is king. Gram has 2m range but highly scalable damage. It's not OP, it's simply the trade off it makes) 

You made some very valid points. The latest weapon entries are much more thought-out with a noticeable quid-quo-pro concept. I hope a future riven rework will have a buff approach for several reasons:

1. you don't piss off people who invested hundreds if not thousands of platinum and avoid a  typhoon or worse, a migration of players.
2. the original dispos reflected the usage of a weapon under the assumption that popular weapons must be strong weapons, that was far less work than actually evaluate each and every weapon. It lead to a few distortions, however: the dispo 1 weapons you mentioned were often rendered useless or weaker when fitting them with most riven mods. Some perceived "popular" weapons were just typical starter-weapons, popular only due to the lack of alternatives. They got a lower disposition than their considerable low damage level reflected. Both types could use a little buff.
3. if you only focus on the dispo 1-3 rivens, that could use a buff, you have far less work than trying to "rebalance" everything with buffs and nerfs. Nerfs would be only relative then and not perceived as such.

[rune_me]

2 hours ago, Toran said:

What's wrong with it? Balance is a bloody illusion. Sorry you still didn't get that after 5 years of Warframe...you guys are just playing whack-a-mole: nerf one thing, another pops up - it's Warframe's Circle of Life. What you stubborn geniuses don't realize is that the latest power creep is just the small top of a wide iceberg, there are tons of alternatives that are just marginally less powerful. To you it makes perfect sense, for me it's just wasted energy.

Balance is obviously not an illusion. And it's certainly not a waste of time to try and achieve it. Sure you nerf one thing then another pops up. Guess what, then you nerf that as well. Then you buff one thing and another pops up. Then you buff that as well. That's what balancing is. 

You have a leaky pipe in your house, you fix it. You don't just ignore it and go "Nah, fix one leak, another pops up so what's the point."

2 hours ago, Toran said:

Instead of focusing on the latest witch-hunt, you should cry for challenging content, for something that requires actual skill (aim, team coordination, timing, spatial awareness etc., pretermined loadout challenge, blacklisted weapons, self-imposed mission modificators etc.) or something that is just plain fun (my hope's on ship-to-ship battle).

Problem is that "fun" is subjective. See, I think that removing rivens from the game completely is just plain fun. So I am in fact doing exactly what you suggest. Crying out for it, I mean.

Or did you mean that I should cry for something you considered just plain fun? Why would I do that, though? If you want something in the game, you can cry for it yourself.

Me, I'll keep crying for the removal and nerf of rivens.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

This game's theme is about powercreep. How can you say that knowing your a space ninja killing thousands of other units in other factions. That is power creep might as well take space ninjas out of Warframe. Matter fact, turn this game into a basic realistic shooter cuz powercreep. Really make so sense OP. You like this game because of the power creep theme, then make a hypocritical statement such as this is laughable.

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, rune_me said:

Balance is obviously not an illusion. And it's certainly not a waste of time to try and achieve it. Sure you nerf one thing then another pops up. Guess what, then you nerf that as well. Then you buff one thing and another pops up. Then you buff that as well. That's what balancing is. 

No, Balance is very much an illusion, as even a well-balanced game can and will have precise combinations of actions, gear and situations where that thing is ludicrously overpowered. The more variables, the more combinations.

Monster Hunter is praised for it's balance, right? How the balanced gameplay lets every playstyle be viable, each battle to remain a challenge, and to make each battle feel intense?

Meanwhile, these people killed a Monster before it was even officially released during a short window where they turned up as a teaser in another Monster's quest. Mind you, these are 'endgame' monsters, at the top of the league, best of the best.

Spoiler

 

Clearly, some setup must be OP if they're able to pull that off. Balance is at most what the lay-player's going to experience. Balance is an illusion that guides people towards the most fun and engaging playstyles for them.

I'm not saying Rivens are perfect, but they're far from the biggest problem in Warframe. Radial nukes making gameplay obsolete, high scaling making 'weak' enemies hugely damaging and thus not fun to fight in the open encouraging slow cover shooter-esque tactics of hiding behind a wall in the environment or from an ability to take potshots; and the disparity in effectiveness between AoE weapons and non-AoE weapons being so massive that using single-target guns at all in higher level content is less an 'alternate play style' and more 'actively gimping yourself'. All of these take away from what's meant to be a fast-paced action game where most things will become viable if you work hard enough, and none of these are side content like rivens are.

[rune_me]

4 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

No, Balance is very much an illusion, as even a well-balanced game can and will have precise combinations of actions, gear and situations where that thing is ludicrously overpowered. The more variables, the more combinations.

Monster Hunter is praised for it's balance, right? How the balanced gameplay lets every playstyle be viable, each battle to remain a challenge, and to make each battle feel intense?

Meanwhile, these people killed a Monster before it was even officially released during a short window where they turned up as a teaser in another Monster's quest. Mind you, these are 'endgame' monsters, at the top of the league, best of the best.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Balance is not an illusion. Perfect balance is, I agree. But I'm not asking for perfect balance. 

Just because you can't achieve perfect fair balance between all weapons, frames, etc, doesn't mean you should just give up on balance entirely and ignore it. 

[rune_me]

57 minutes ago, BloodArmoredApostle said:

This game's theme is about powercreep. How can you say that knowing your a space ninja killing thousands of other units in other factions. That is power creep might as well take space ninjas out of Warframe. Matter fact, turn this game into a basic realistic shooter cuz powercreep. Really make so sense OP. You like this game because of the power creep theme, then make a hypocritical statement such as this is laughable.

I don't think you know what powercreep means.

Powercreep does not mean that you are powerful. It means that new things introduced into a game, through patches, DLC, etc, is better than what is already in the game, and keeps getting better and better with each new release. It's usually an artificial way to extend interest in a game that is starting to loose it's playerbase (not in Warframe's case, though, just usually) - "Hey you thought you've seen everything and found the most powerful combination of gear and now you're bored, well try this out, it's much better than anything you've tried previously so you better start playing again".

Power, perhaps even overpowered, may be a theme of the game. But that's not powercreep.

[Vox_Preliator]

"Not literally Satan" is not the same thing as "Is good" or "Wouldn't be better with significant changes" or even "Should exist"

Why do I even need to point that out again?  Is this really all that you have with which to defend powercreep and Rivens in their current state?

Edited September 27, 2018 by Vox_Preliator

[ShortCat]

5 hours ago, Toran said:

What's wrong with it? Balance is a bloody illusion.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

No, Balance is very much an illusion, as even a well-balanced game can and will have precise combinations of actions, gear and situations where that thing is ludicrously overpowered. The more variables, the more combinations.

Balance is not an illusion. The most balanced game I know is chess. An old game, yet it is still diverse and exsiting. Nothing there is overpowered, every chess piece is situationally usefull and has its value. More variables/combinations do not mean more power, but more ways to solve a specific problem.

[Hypernaut1]

The only time a weapon becomes useless to me is when it gets a prime. Other than that, I'll use different weapons just for the feel of it

[Toran]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb ShortCat:

Balance is not an illusion. The most balanced game I know is chess. An old game, yet it is still diverse and exsiting. Nothing there is overpowered, every chess piece is situationally usefull and has its value. More variables/combinations do not mean more power, but more ways to solve a specific problem.

I was speaking of Warframe... don't rip my sentence out of context. In Warframe you'll never get "balance" by nature of the Warframes' different roles alone (which can be mixed to some degree, but there always will be specialists).

Just look at usage of Warframes at MR25, looks balanced enough to me when it comes to role usage, about 15 % stealth, 30% AoE, 20% Support and 30% CC - rest a gusto. Nothing out of hand... and that's what DE is actually looking at and changes when they see that change is needed.

Instead of looking what to nerf next we should look at what isn't hardly used at all (<1% usage), recognize why it's crap (seemingly) and think of ways to improve it.

[Toran]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb rune_me:

Balance is obviously not an illusion. And it's certainly not a waste of time to try and achieve it. Sure you nerf one thing then another pops up. Guess what, then you nerf that as well. Then you buff one thing and another pops up. Then you buff that as well. That's what balancing is. 

You have a leaky pipe in your house, you fix it. You don't just ignore it and go "Nah, fix one leak, another pops up so what's the point."

Problem is that "fun" is subjective. See, I think that removing rivens from the game completely is just plain fun. So I am in fact doing exactly what you suggest. Crying out for it, I mean.

Or did you mean that I should cry for something you considered just plain fun? Why would I do that, though? If you want something in the game, you can cry for it yourself.

Me, I'll keep crying for the removal and nerf of rivens.

The balance you're seeking sounds as fun and exciting as a round of tic-tac-toe where equally skilled players never will win but hey, it's truly balanced.

It's too late to withdraw Rivens, anyway - unless DE doesn't care about taking one to the knee and losing the trust of a majority of players. Go ahead and cry on, General Discussion is the perfect place to be heard for good. Heading back home, playing some Warframe, backing off from futile discussions.

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, Toran said:

The balance you're seeking sounds as fun and exciting as a round of tic-tac-toe where equally skilled players never will win but hey, it's truly balanced.

To you, you mean. Which is why I said fun is subjective. I can't say that what you consider or don't consider fun is anything that keeps me awake at night.

3 minutes ago, Toran said:

It's too late to withdraw Rivens, anyway - unless DE doesn't care about taking one to the knee and losing the trust of a majority of players. Go ahead and cry on, General Discussion is the perfect place to be heard for good. Heading back home, playing some Warframe, backing off from futile discussions.

I already said in a previous post that of course DE won't remove rivens from the game.

[DrBorris]

So much "you can't this", "that's impossible", and "never".

 

If you are saying that, I think you are just not being creative enough.

Warframes can be balanced. Rivens can be balanced. Damage can be balanced. Enemies can be balanced. Saying something can't happen sounds to me like you just aren't willing to consider other options, in other words ignorance.

(Also, saying that there is no point in trying on a public Forum? Like... what is the point then?)

Edited September 27, 2018 by DrBorris

[Loza03]

3 hours ago, rune_me said:

Balance is not an illusion. Perfect balance is, I agree. But I'm not asking for perfect balance. 

Just because you can't achieve perfect fair balance between all weapons, frames, etc, doesn't mean you should just give up on balance entirely and ignore it. 

You're taking my statement out of context. In video game terms, it is an illusion that leads players to the most engaging playstyles for them. It may appear balanced, but it isn't, because in a really well 'balanced' game, players with skillsets or playstyles that suit something will move down the paths of 'above the power curve' laid out by the developers to achieve the goals the developers set forth for the game.

In Warframe, this is variety, an 'every style counts', so they'll set out more powerful gear that plays in certain ways to lead players into playstyles that suit that. But right now, that doesn't matter, because there are a number of 'win buttons' that completely disregard this, that are so much better that following the path of anything other than that playstyle will make your playstyle not worthwhile. Specifically, stuff like Volt's discharge, Saryn's spores and Banshee's Soundquake. There's also barriers to other playstyles in the form of borked enemy scaling encouraging everything to be dead before it sees you or be unable to hit you, and playstyles which are more 'front-lines' and in the thick of things are subsequently punished.

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Balance is not an illusion. The most balanced game I know is chess. An old game, yet it is still diverse and exsiting. Nothing there is overpowered, every chess piece is situationally usefull and has its value. More variables/combinations do not mean more power, but more ways to solve a specific problem.

I agree that the second part of this - that everything is useful and holds value - but I disagree that rivens are the main enemy of this. An enemy, yes, and they do need addressing, but way less than other core parts of the Warframe experience. No riven will ever make something like the Tiberon Prime, which only shoots one enemy at a time, anywhere near as broadly effective as an unlimited-use screen-nuke. These need their design altered so that they enable gameplay, not remove it.

Also, Chess is a poor analogy to Warframe. Chess's near-perfect balance and long period of existence has made it rigid at every level apart from 'complete casual' and 'absolute grandmaster'. Warframe won't ever be that balanced nor will it last as long. Plus, chess's balance is based on being, whereas Warfame has asymmetrical balance. Very different balance theories.

[seprent]

I play warframe for the random wanton slaughter of anything i can get my mitts on or just to know its happening

I don't care what occurs around as long as the above stated happens but i do have a dislike for rivens its imo it kills any weapon you put it on since you can make them so powerful you can ignore any downside mechanics it could have or anything special about it with why would i do this when i can fire it normally and do 50-60k damage and it becomes a braton with different stats and name so i don't use them.

you wanna use them? go ahead more power to you even if i don't like it their your guns not mine but i've said this MANY times the riven concept/riven market is like a sphere container of nitroglycerin next to a ramp now for those who don't know/don't wanna look it up its a volatile chemical that explodes when reacting to outside force applied to it. if anything happens to rivens like a disposition change (the only real way to balance the unmanageable) you have just tapped the ball to roll down the ramp.

The resulting fallout is forum posts after forum posts of every color of the salt rainbow of sellers and buyers "concerned" about their investments in a object they are vary aware can change never know when but the change always occurs yet still sell them for such absurd prices ik ik free market and all the players set the prices but come on lets see if you tried to place a Real life price tag on it would that still sell? personally the free market prices are the biggest contender for charge back plat.

The spoiler below holds a math game i made for rivens to determine their price to plat packs you can buy from DE (i'm on dark theme so unless you mouse over it would be invisible so the text is red but its readable so woo) 

Spoiler

here is a fun (Fun is optional) game i made just for riven prices

1. Find the price tag in plat of a riven your looking at (in this example i will use USD since i live there your numbers may vary)
2. Take the plat amount and write it down for this example ill use 5k plat a semi standard price tag number
3. open the buy platinum page so you have a point of reference (the amounts and prices for said amounts)
4. Try and use the least amount of packs to get as close to the price tag as possible (writing it down of course)
5. add up the price via the pack's price tag and see if you think its worth that price

5k plat can be solved 2 ways the fast way and slow way 

• the fast way would be the 1k plat bundles for 50USD so it be 50 x 5 = 250 USD
• the slow way would be used these packs 4300 + 370 + 370 = 5040 the price of that would be 200 + 20 + 20 = 240 USD
• not much of a difference but in the hundreds of dollars imo any amount saved is nice

• have a good day tenno