mikakor Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said: Ah, I see. You have an unviably skewed definition of "p2w." No wonder you think that's an argument. If you can use real money to buy gameplay advantages, that's p2w. Anything else is simple apologetics (like most of the excuses here). The difference is that I don't consider p2w to be a "bad word" in the context of Warframe because there are so many ways around or through it, and it's not manipulative, predatory, or particularly egregious. so I don't see it as the huge negative that it often is in other games. Nevertheless, I'm not suggesting that it has to be implemented in a way that is, nor saying that it's now allowed to be an option, so even if you want to cry "p2w" about it, you still don't have an argument to stand on. If you read the rest of the thread, you would have known this already. Paying to win is being FORCED to pay, to use real cash, to win. holy crap, i hope someone lock this thread up because the number of brain-frying thing you're spitting out is horrible, makes me want to rip my hairs. In Warframe, NOTHING force you to pay, to gain advantage. NOTHING. AT ALL. because everything, you can get it in the game without paying. everything that gives you a better game, of course. so no, Warframe isn't pay to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, mikakor said: Paying to win is being FORCED to pay, to use real cash, to win. holy crap, i hope someone lock this thread up because the number of brain-frying thing you're spitting out is horrible, makes me want to rip my hairs. In Warframe, NOTHING force you to pay, to gain advantage. NOTHING. AT ALL. because everything, you can get it in the game without paying. everything that gives you a better game, of course. so no, Warframe isn't pay to win. We got an EA apologist here, everyone! It's "optional!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikakor Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Just now, FrostDragoon said: We got an EA apologist here, everyone! It's "optional!" i also hate EA. if you could stay on topic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, mikakor said: i also hate EA. if you could stay on topic... How can you hate someone you sound just like? Edit: Let me take what you said, express its corollary (which is every bit as true), and see if you can't tell why I don't buy your definition of p2w. Quote Reactors/Catalysts may be a bit rare to come by but they are still obtainable for free, its a matter of waiting for the opportunity. If you are buying them of the Market, you are paying to Rush and not to win. Reactors and Catalysts can be bought for 20p, but you have the OPTION to wait for RNG alerts to get one for free. (See how it's framed as actually being p2w with the OPTION to grind?) You can say that people can do X or Y thing in the super limited form that it must be in if they want to remain 100% f2p, but we all know that isn't how it's intended to work and that almost nobody does it. Functionally, it's intended to be, and is, p2w. This is an old, tired argument that holds no water, and it's hard to believe people still try to cling to it because they don't want to face the cognitive dissonance involved with a f2p game with a p2w model. If you were truly honest with yourself, you would admit that it has lots of p2w available and that it doesn't really do anything harmful to the game overall. Edited October 30, 2018 by FrostDragoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Lowk721 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) Either you'd be stuck with the arcane helmet dilemma. Which everyone has alrady gone over. Or you take the armor out of the platinum pool and put them in the farmable category. Which decrease the need for people to buy platinum even further then it already is due to trading. As well as further messes up the games drop pool. Which in some cases can already be a nightmare. So, on one hand, you can regress to an old system that was taken out for one crowd's problem. Or progress to a new system that opens up a new set of problems with a different crowd. I'd say they're fine as just cosmetic. The alternative is additional work for minor boost and little return save people arguing even harder over this exact same topic. Edited October 30, 2018 by (PS4)Lowk721 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 1 minute ago, (PS4)Lowk721 said: Either you'd be stuck with the arcane helmet dilemma. Which everyone has alrady gone over. Or you take the armor out of the platinum pool and put them in the farmable category. Which decrease the need for people to buy platinum even further then it already is due to trading. As well as further messes up the games drop pool. Which in some cases can already be a nightmare. So, on one hand, you can regress to an old system that was taken out for one crowd's problem. Or progress to a new system that opens up a new set of problems with a different crowd. I'd say they're fine as just cosmetic. The alternative is additional work for minor boost and little return save people arguing over even harder over this exact same topic. I've been over the arcanes issue already. It doesn't have to recreate that issue if its implemented well. However, the second part of your post is the more interesting. If it's going to be farmable, it could be added in a way that doesn't work the same as other target farmed items in the game. Instead of being on mode rotation, it can just be an enemy drop, or a % chance on mission complete for any node in a given sector. These are only a couple ideas. There are plenty of options that can make it fairly painless to add to the drop pool. If what you mean by it being a "nightmare" is that it's grindy, that's a given. That is why we have the option to just buy it with plat. Any amount that it reduces the need to buy plat is negligible because there are already so many other reasons to do it, especially given how Rivens inflated the market so hard. Add to that the fact that some people may wish to just skip the grind, want a specific set of parts, or how the incentive to buy plat could be recovered by making them tradable... it's really not a big problem. That all said, there are many other options for implementation that don't necessarily require the stats to be attached to specific armor pieces. This was only one possible approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabbynaru Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said: Reactors and Catalysts can be bought for 20p, but you have the OPTION to wait for RNG alerts to get one for free. (See how it's framed as actually being p2w with the OPTION to grind?) Yeah, genius, this is a Free to Play game, the price you have to pay is being mentally screwed with in order for them to make their money, cause nothing is truly free in this world. You wanna call Potatoes pay to win? Look back to when Warframe first launched and you couldn't get them in game while each item had a progression tree attached to them that was cut in half by the lack of a potato. That was potatoes being LITERALLY pay to win. Your r-tarded point is just the de facto temptations of a free to play environment. Calling these pay to win is just pathetic and make you sound like a whiny tool. How about you go look at all the videos on the internet demonstrating what pay to win is, particularly Battlefield 2. If you then tell me Warframe is similar, not conceptually or with twisted words, but in practice, then frankly you're not worth anyone's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said: Yeah, genius, this is a Free to Play game, the price you have to pay is being mentally screwed with in order for them to make their money, cause nothing is truly free in this world. You wanna call Potatoes pay to win? Look back to when Warframe first launched and you couldn't get them in game while each item had a progression tree attached to them that was cut in half by the lack of a potato. That was potatoes being LITERALLY pay to win. Your r-tarded point is just the de facto temptations of a free to play environment. Calling these pay to win is just pathetic and make you sound like a whiny tool. How about you go look at all the videos on the internet demonstrating what pay to win is, particularly Battlefield 2. If you then tell me Warframe is similar, not conceptually or with twisted words, but in practice, then frankly you're not worth anyone's time. Apologetics and name-calling. Cute, but unoriginal and unpersuasive. P2W takes many forms, and just because other games can be/are worse about it doesn't mean this one isn't. I even express how it doesn't harm this game the way it does in most because it's well implemented. Insert coins to play again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Lowk721 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said: If it's going to be farmable, it could be added in a way that doesn't work the same as other target farmed items in the game. Instead of being on mode rotation, it can just be an enemy drop, or a % chance on mission complete for any node in a given sector. These are only a couple ideas. There are plenty of options that can make it fairly painless to add to the drop pool. If what you mean by it being a "nightmare" is that it's grindy, that's a given. It not just making themselves grindy. It's further decreasing the chance other things in the pool as well. People already complain about the grind and this would only add to whatever pool it is added to. It's like "Hey, you know how frustrating the grind is? Here, let's make it worse with something that's probably going to have a lot of people complaining about it." Then you've got all the people who paid for things. It's like three different groups of player's they'd be pissing off for something negligible. It either that or they do like they do with cosmetics/decorations now and lock them behind syndicates. Which going by how DE does, is not going to be in sets and each piece is going to cost you. Or they might spread behind different syndicates like they do for the archwing weapons. Which gets rid of the drop % people off their back but still leaves the already paid and the fashsionframe crowds with a bad taste in their mouths. 25 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said: That all said, there are many other options for implementation that don't necessarily require the stats to be attached to specific armor pieces. This was only one possible approach. At that point what is even the purpose of it needing the cosmetic armor pieces at all? Now you have to have armor if you want these bonuses? It'd be better to do with something that has nothing to do with the appearance of the frame. Maybe like minor arcane slots for lesser(specific?) arcanes or something like that. Leaves appearance alone. Sticks to a single less saturated loot pool. And doesn't make all the people who bought the stuff beforehand salty. Edited October 30, 2018 by (PS4)Lowk721 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)robotwars7 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 anything that messes with fashionframe is a no-go for most. also inb4 lock as OP is not being respectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said: anything that messes with fashionframe is a no-go for most. also inb4 lock as OP is not being respectful. I've given considerably more respect than what I've received. I doubt they'll lock over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firetempest Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Pretty much pointless debate if you are already willing to change the implementation so that cosmetics as basically a "extra blank slot". Then you can just put that blank slot anywhere, like 3ed arcane slot. Its just stats creep. Cosmetics are just that. We had that with helmets. We had that with old arcane system slots with helmets and syandanas. And now you want another crack at that convoluted mechanic again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Firetempest said: Pretty much pointless debate if you are already willing to change the implementation so that cosmetics as basically a "extra blank slot". Then you can just put that blank slot anywhere, like 3ed arcane slot. Its just stats creep. Cosmetics are just that. We had that with helmets. We had that with old arcane system slots with helmets and syandanas. And now you want another crack at that convoluted mechanic again. It was never "convoluted," but it also doesn't have to be implemented that way either. However, what I want is separate from what arcanes do, because I find most of the arcanes to be either really unreliable or too niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Graysmog Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said: anything that messes with fashionframe is a no-go for most. also inb4 lock as OP is not being respectful. Plus, it's never fun to go that route anyways. We've already been down that road, and the general community consensus was negative. This isn't a game akin to WoW or something, Cosmetics are for looks and looks alone, and that's a good thing. We already have the option to buff ourselves in a non-cosmetically related way, with stuff like Arcanes and Mods. Also, I have to say, what would even be the point? This kind of thing creates two problems; either the buffs are so good that other cosmetics are left in the dust, or the buffs overall do literally nothing and only serve to be a pointless stat tweak. All in all, it's just an easy way to hurt cosmetic diversity for really no reason other than "oh well it's Armor so it should protect us". This is just like the "well Warframes should be immune to their respective elements" discussion I keep seeing around. Yeah, sure, it's a logical argument (kind of, a flamethrower isn't immune to fire and 99% of the armor in the game wouldn't protect us at all), but not a practical argument. It creates balance disruption that either helps one specific person a lot, or doesn't do anything for another, or just doesn't do much of anything in general. It'd either be an extra later of grind nobody wants or a type of PTW nobody wants. Warframe, thankfully, isn't a game where your looks determine your stats. While there is the option for "Armor with Buffs" to be with under "Cosmetic Armor", it's just such an unnecessary thing to add when the have has, and won't, delve any further into such a gimmick. That's all this kind of thing is at this point in the games' life, a gimmick. It's not something the game was entirely focused around from the get-go, so trying to shoehorn it in when most of the community was and still is against it is just a ridiculous idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEjAvU5566 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Nope, armor with stat boost and lots of people will wear those which give the most advantage even they looks sucks, ruining the whole fun of fashion frame. Players has been through that and DE regrets they doing it (arcane helmet). If you want that feature, I will suggest to play other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brxricano Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Lol. 7 pages. 7 pages of adults taking the time out to explain to you the very different definition of pay to win. Bro, youre obviously hooked on fortnite and battlerite. youll never get statted armor (BACK. youll never get it BACK, the part you refuse to swallow. weve had it and we hate it). Saryn will never do a dab pose (probably next on your wish list). and no, no one wants transmog either (the 3rd most popular 'thatll never work in this game so why even' request). Why do i say Battlerite and Fortnite? Because you sound fresh off the bus on that. like you literally just closed the launcher and started lamenting lol. Youre just another 'why cant this be like everything else i like?' player. Because Mr Why, that is exactly why. Everything else is like that. By your logic you should be there, stay there, and never be here since were doing it wrong bruh. But really, lets seal the tomb on this one cause Lara is sagging on this one: Cosmetic armor isnt a gameplay opportunity. you know what is? Events, Alerts, Rifts, hell even Baro is an opportunity that spurs gameplay with you and\or friends. Armor is armor. So nothing is lost really. You just want your way. You just want armor to have stats just.....to have them. Youre spoiled. So spoiled you dont even see how much Warframe spoils you. You say pay to win.....while pleading for a pay to win option. Because lets face it, you propose cute ideas about farm and extra slot and options and do it if you want to but LETS FACE IT lol, if you cant be bothered with things the way they are now...LOL oh boy, you just wanted statted armor in the store dont you? you dont want whats on the table now, how am i supposed to even envision you farming? oh no wait! you want it in the workshop, out of the way from the little kiddies, they shant be tempted, and if i cant see it you cant hurt me with your superior .001% stat boost. Right? But hear this: If every option currently sucks, is too useless or too niche.....What. What even ever is statted armor supposed to do for such an uppity connoisseur like yourself? Because right now, your logic is: Mod set, Arcanes, special weapons, Focus\Operator, Augments.....ALL USELESS- ooh shiny leg armor, oh!!! OH!!! .1 to shield regen...NO.....WAY. *tweets about it* Having fun watching you do the community equivalent of a lone wolf MP run in Battlefield's 50 v 50 mode though lol. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, brxricano said: Lol. 7 pages. 7 pages of adults taking the time out to explain to you the very different definition of pay to win. Bro, youre obviously hooked on fortnite and battlerite. youll never get statted armor (BACK. youll never get it BACK, the part you refuse to swallow. weve had it and we hate it). Saryn will never do a dab pose (probably next on your wish list). and no, no one wants transmog either (the 3rd most popular 'thatll never work in this game so why even' request). This is only as far as I read since it's basically a straw man rolled into an ad hominem, so the rest is meaningless. You can make all the personal attacks you want, but there's nothing remotely convincing about that or the 7 pages of canned responses you refer to. Occasionally someone has put something worth thinking/talking about in there, but most of the people making posts like yours make your user names irrelevant because they are all so alike that there's no way to tell you apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 24 minutes ago, (XB1)Graysmog said: Warframe, thankfully, isn't a game where your looks determine your stats. While there is the option for "Armor with Buffs" to be with under "Cosmetic Armor", it's just such an unnecessary thing to add when the have has, and won't, delve any further into such a gimmick. That's all this kind of thing is at this point in the games' life, a gimmick. It's not something the game was entirely focused around from the get-go, so trying to shoehorn it in when most of the community was and still is against it is just a ridiculous idea. People could easily have said that about Rivens, Operators, Exilus, etc. "It wasn't there from the start, so it's not designed for it." That's nonsense. It all boils down to implementation. Also, most of the comments arguing against me now are people who didn't read the thread, but only the OP (and badly), so the discussion of implementation keeps getting interrupted by each person with the same pre-programmed, oft repeated response thinking they're the first to tell me something I was already aware of and don't find convincing to begin with. I'm not accusing you of this, but where do you think the game would be if the devs were too scared to try anything because, "it wasn't there in the beginning?" I think it's funny that people keep bringing up arcanes too. It's like the ultimate straw man. You take an example of something badly implemented that was later removed, and people think that something similar can never work. This happened with Diablo 3 and its Auction House, so now people think ARPGs can't have AHs, and some even go so far as to think AHs themselves are inherently bad. They're not. It all boils down to implementation. Most everything in life and society does, and games are no exception. I completely understand the hesitance and reservations people have about it, but most are unwilling to even have the conversation because they bought into this false notion. I can easily see it working out well if people would get out of panic mode long enough to actually think about what could be done differently to allow it to instead of repeatedly baying like sheep with the same boring rhetoric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kappa64 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Just because you can name Logical Fallacies doesn't make you smart, it makes you look like you don't have an argument. They took out Arcane Helmets because they didn't like stats on cosmetics. They took out Arcanes on Helmets and Syndanas because they didn't like stats on cosmetics. Whether or not you can earn the armor in-game, without plat, is pointless, as DE has clearly stated they don't want stats tied to cosmetics AT ALL. Also if you want to discuss what Pay-2-Win is, I'd suggest a different thread, since it's just about the easiest thing to use to derail a thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firetempest Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 OP keeps mentioning, if its implemented right. If the vague idea of slots or boosts in someway related to armor is implemented correctly. it will be enjoyed. Just about any mechanic implemented correctly could work but the whole solution is leaving others to figure out what works best for them as the goalpost keeps moving as long as something extra is added somewhere. That in itself is the vaguest, no substance reasoning. "I want pretty armor but I want pretty armor that does something/anything more than be pretty to be worth my dollar." That's all we got right now. And the majorities opinion is pretty armor should only be pretty armor, specially when no armor in slot is equally appealing on many frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achromos Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 (edited) No. I like this game the way it is. I like DE the way they do their monitization currently, I like being able to wear what I want when I want how I want color it the way I want and to me that is 100X more valuable than stats which they have PHASED out (remember Arcane helmets? Nobody really does nor do people use them commonly. Remember when you had to LOCK Arcanes onto your Syandanas? Yea, they removed that so people could look the way they want.) DE wants people to enjoy the way their frame looks over giving us micro-transaction bait. How much money have I given EA and Activision, hell even Destiny in their micro-transactions? Not nearly as much as I have DE and I have no remorse over it because of how awesome they are as far as a company to customer relation. Yes, I'm still salty about Chroma... But no I wouldn't enjoy being nickle-and-dimed on stats. Edited October 31, 2018 by achromos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brxricano Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Im glad you understand your flaws. First step to recovery. Thanks for reading, now just find the time to reflect and improve your social and gaming life. You have a great night! 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous_A Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Except it's really not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakosta_Kai Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 6 hours ago, FrostDragoon said: This was a problem because the old arcanes carried big drawbacks. Not the same at all to what I'm suggesting. No, The only real problem revolved around the notion that cosmetics having stats gave others something they could opine about at all. ...Which makes it exactly like what you are suggesting. Put simply, this idea is bad because its' redundant...DE solved for this already by removing all play value from subsequent cosmetics that wasn't aesthetic. Once you understand and accept that, You can blame it on whatever else makes you feel good... Blame it on the Stat deficits... Blame it on the Helmet themes... Blame it on Community Infighting... Blame it on The Rain... ...Whatever floats your boat bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted October 31, 2018 Author Share Posted October 31, 2018 Same predictable nonsense. Smh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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