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Garuda is weak or is just me?


Azrra
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5 hours ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Then that means it's a problem with Operator arcanes, not Garuda. There should be more of them that are worth using, so you have to decide between Magus Elevate and something else - except when you use Garuda, for example.

Also, a frame should be made to be self-sufficient. DE shouldn't make frames that rely on Magus Elevate, or energy pizzas, or anything like that, because people who don't have them will think the frame is incomplete and just garbage to play. Frames should be good on their own(or their base stats should be decent enough to mod around in some way, I don't expect unmodded frames to work at high levels). Maybe a frame only works best with these things, but they should not be designed with those things in mind.

I don't think that's true at all. Most frames do not have ways to regenerate energy, but they aren't useless because Energizing Dash exists. It wouldn't be fair to rate Mesa or Equinox as bad frames because they have no innate way of restoring energy and would therefore run out. It's actually a good thing that's these frames don't have redundant healing or energy restoration skills, because that leaves room for other interesting skills while the player can use other options outside of Warframe skills to fill the gap. 

Frames are not judged on a vacuum, we take into consideration a variety of factors such as mods, arcanes, focus trees, and content. 

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1 hour ago, 420-chan said:

I don't think that's true at all. Most frames do not have ways to regenerate energy, but they aren't useless because Energizing Dash exists. It wouldn't be fair to rate Mesa or Equinox as bad frames because they have no innate way of restoring energy and would therefore run out. It's actually a good thing that's these frames don't have redundant healing or energy restoration skills, because that leaves room for other interesting skills while the player can use other options outside of Warframe skills to fill the gap. 

Frames are not judged on a vacuum, we take into consideration a variety of factors such as mods, arcanes, focus trees, and content. 

Even as a new player, I could keep EB running because abilities make orbs drop more often(unless I'm literally crazy) so even those frames probably have some luck there, though I wouldn't know.

Frames aren't created in a vacuum, but that doesn't mean we should make garbage frames - I don't want to use one that relies on gear I don't have, plain and simple. That's just bad game design. Even if it's not bad game design, it will certainly cause people to be upset that DE expects them to not only get the frame(which should be more than enough when people like me buy it) but they expect them to get something completely irrelevant to have the proper experience.

There are ways to get energy in the game, some better than others, so not every frame needs to have a built-in energy mechanic. There are ways to get health, so not every frame needs a way to get health from its abilities. I'm not saying that. I'm saying the option should exist, because it frees up other options. You can use Energizing Dash for other frames. For Garuda, you can use something else entirely(it would finally give me a reason to start on Focus, since I have only one choice and it's a bad one with the frame I'm using). I don't see the problem here. I don't like relying solely on Energizing Dash, so Garuda is a good frame choice for me. I don't mind relying on things like Life Strike and my dog for healing, but now that I have Garuda, I can use that space for something else.

At the end of the day, these sound like concerns for you. If you can't find something other than Magus Elevate, Energizing Dash, etc. then maybe Garuda isn't the frame for you. I personally love her, and don't want to see big changes come along because her kit clashes with the gear other people use, since it's not Garuda that's the problem - it's the specific clash of Garuda and the gear you're using.

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23 hours ago, Ver1dian said:

I was going to get into detail, but I realised you and a lot of people just lack imagination and view her as only a caster. She has a wow's death knight feel, half caster half melee, better at what you decide.

If this build outlasts and outdamages mr26 umbras/rhinos..etc. then I cant say she's lacking.

Sorry for the late reply the forums borked yesterday.

Anyway i cant really view her as anything else than a ranged caster.

She has almost no survivability skills what fit a melee char, shes more like one of those support casters like trinity or nova where you stay out of range to provide the goods.

2 range closing skills wont make you a good melee frame, if that would be the case nova, zephyr and anybody with dash skills would count as such.

 

Altought i would like to hear details, im open for new suggestions before i decide to shelf her for good.

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2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

She has almost no survivability skills what fit a melee char, shes more like one of those support casters like trinity or nova where you stay out of range to provide the goods.

I've come to the conclusion, that every truly melee/tank character has tree important aspects: a (self)heal, a way to mitigate damage and the ability to be built only with survivability mods and still excel. That doesn't mean that their abilities don't benefit from mods, but they don't require any to perform adequately, unlike caster abilities, that actually need the buffs in range/damage . Be it because their abilities scale well without mods or because they're mainly utility:  Nidus, Valkyr, Inaros, Wukong (albeit by resurrection)...etc.

Let's look at Garuda:
Dread Mirror has both utility and doesn't need mods to scale and is a way to mitigate damage.
Blood Altar scales off HP and is a healing ability.
Blood Letting is only utility
Seeking Talons is also only utility

If you try to build what I've mentioned above on Mag, not only will she still be relatively fragile, she will also be completely useless outside of using weapons.

Garuda can still heal, debuff and deal high damage with her abilities.

I'm not going to discuss whether the skills "fit" a melee character, because WF rarely goes by the books, otherwise you wouldn't have what is essentially an ADC with a 95% damage reduction.

 

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

2 range closing skills wont make you a good melee frame, if that would be the case nova, zephyr and anybody with dash skills would count as such.

A gap closer is not a mobility ability, please acknowledge the difference. She also has higher HP and armor. That inbuilt melee weapon should ring some bells as well. She is the only character after Ash with a mobility skill that actively engages an enemy, it really blows my mind when people say she's only a caster.

If you're not comfortable with the frame, it doesn't matter, plenty of others to your liking. But she is a melee frame with caster/support functionality. Building only for her secondary role will not have the effect most desire. I'm not trying to convince you or anything, just trying to explain how she can actually be strong.

Yesterday I tested her vs 140lv Bombards, no damage immunity, no paused AI, took me ~30 sec to clear the room and didn't even get below 80% hp. The play style feels a lot smoother, when you're weaving Seeking Talons in your melee (a tap is enough to mark everything in front), when the enemy gather, release a Dread Heart that has stored 1000s of damage, leap on a target with Blood Altar, use Blood Letting once or twice, this feels really smooth and works against high level heavy enemies.

On the opposite side you have a caster with one damage spell, who has to set up her damage or heal spell by going into melee range for a reason that can't be explained, with a slow to cast ultimate and extremely energy hungry, because half of the energy got sucked into Dread Heart while aiming and nobody dares to use Blood Letting out of fear some stray shot will finish the job, then in order to repeat the ordeal, prep time of another 5-10 seconds is required.

Edited by Ver1dian
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1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

I've come to the conclusion, that every truly melee/tank character has three important aspects: a (self)heal, a way to mitigate damage and the ability to be built only with survivability mods and still excel.

Thats trinity, harrow and revenant for you and this list pretty much excludes some of the fully melee thematic frames like excalibur, ash, atlas and nezha.

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

Let's look at Garuda:

  1. Dread Mirror has both utility and doesn't need mods to scale and is a way to mitigate damage.
  2. Blood Altar scales off HP and is a healing ability.
  3. Blood Letting is only utility
  4. Seeking Talons is also only utility
  1. Provides inconsistent damage mitgation and requies mods to scale in damage. Charging locks you down and costs absurd amounts of energy.
  2. Blood altar scales off your own hp and locks you down into a small area to get the healing. It also needs los.
  3. Requies 160% efficiency to be worth casting and can still result in suicide.
  4. High utility damage buffer but the cast time is slow and locks you down.
1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

If you try to build what I've mentioned above on Mag, not only will she still be relatively fragile, she will also be completely useless outside of using weapons.

She could still hide into a bubble to gain damage mitgation and use pulse to reduce armor. Surely she wont deal much damage with her skills but thats why we have weapons.

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

A gap closer is not a mobility ability, please acknowledge the difference. She also has higher HP and armor. That inbuilt melee weapon should ring some bells as well. She is the only character after Ash with a mobility skill that actively engages an enemy, it really blows my mind when people say she's only a caster.

Well lets see, a gap closer, high hp and armor and an inbuilt melee weapon? Thats atlas, valkyr to some degree titania.

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

Yesterday I tested her vs 140lv Bombards, no damage immunity, no paused AI, took me ~30 sec to clear the room and didn't even get below 80% hp. The play style feels a lot smoother, when you're weaving Seeking Talons in your melee (a tap is enough to mark everything in front), when the enemy gather, release a Dread Heart that has stored 1000s of damage, leap on a target with Blood Altar, use Blood Letting once or twice, this feels really smooth and works against high level heavy enemies.

The reason why people say that garuda is a caster frame is pretty simple, im sure you have already read it here or somewhere else but if not i can tell you:

First the dread mirror might come with a sudden finisher attack but otherwise its main point is a directional small size shield what is most effective from far away and a blood missile what is slow to cast therefore for safety you need to do it from far away.

Second we have a blood altar what is a great healing tool but it needs bot los and you to be in range. This gives the impression that garuda was meant to stay at that circle for the duration of the fight, what is not really what a melee player would do.

Third ability is a classic blood sacrafice, not part of the caster impresson but also doesnt help the melee impression.

The last skill is slow to increase coverage, grants damage boost and in combination with the first skills orb its devastating. The problem is that this skill too feels like something what was intented to be used from far away so the charge is both safer and requies less charging for larger coverage.

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

On the opposite side you have a caster with one damage spell, who has to set up her damage or heal spell by going into melee range for a reason that can't be explained, with a slow to cast ultimate and extremely energy hungry, because half of the energy got sucked into Dread Heart while aiming and nobody dares to use Blood Letting out of fear some stray shot will finish the job, then in order to repeat the ordeal, prep time of another 5-10 seconds is required.

Because thats the wrong strategy.

You go in the room and cast dread mirror on the first mook you see. While hes on the ground you convert him into an altar. Since your health is now replenished you cast your sacrafice skill gain energy and then dash away. You mark everything from a safe distance and you either orb them to death or pick out your ignis and make them melt.

If i wouldnt know what game is this i would say that the whole thing sounds like something out of naruto or something similar, sudden attacks then a ranged finisher.

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1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats trinity, harrow and revenant for you and this list pretty much excludes some of the fully melee thematic frames like excalibur, ash, atlas and nezha.

The list wasn't exclusive, Trinity is already considered the best tank by many, where is Harrow's heal and how does Revenant's kit work if you don't build for his abilities?

You're just nitpicking at this point. Ash is a stealth melee and I was obviously referring to tanky melees, also how is Nezha is a melee frame?

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

 

  1. Provides inconsistent damage mitgation and requies mods to scale in damage. Charging locks you down and costs absurd amounts of energy.
  2. Blood altar scales off your own hp and locks you down into a small area to get the healing. It also needs los.
  3. Requies 160% efficiency to be worth casting and can still result in suicide.
  4. High utility damage buffer but the cast time is slow and locks you down.

1. No it isn't inconsistent, if you fail to take advantage that's another thing. It doesn't need a single mod do scale, this is plain wrong. It scales off absorbed damage, but like any ability it benefits from mods. Also you don't need to charge it, it can literally be fired in .5 sec.

2. And is also spamable and restores 25% of missing hp the second you land, she does benefit from not having 100% hp as well.

3. No. It's suicide when you build for Volt.

4. Just because everyone think it should be max charged for some reason doesn't mean it always should.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

 

Well lets see, a gap closer, high hp and armor and an inbuilt melee weapon? Thats atlas, valkyr to some degree titania.

 

Point taken for Atlas. But a gap closer is a gap closer, non-melees don't use it.

 

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The reason why people say that garuda is a caster frame is pretty simple, im sure you have already read it here or somewhere else but if not i can tell you:

First the dread mirror might come with a sudden finisher attack but otherwise its main point is a directional small size shield what is most effective from far away and a blood missile what is slow to cast therefore for safety you need to do it from far away.

Second we have a blood altar what is a great healing tool but it needs bot los and you to be in range. This gives the impression that garuda was meant to stay at that circle for the duration of the fight, what is not really what a melee player would do.

Third ability is a classic blood sacrafice, not part of the caster impresson but also doesnt help the melee impression.

The last skill is slow to increase coverage, grants damage boost and in combination with the first skills orb its devastating. The problem is that this skill too feels like something what was intented to be used from far away so the charge is both safer and requies less charging for larger coverage.

 

So effective at a distance that it staggers enemies in melee. The blood missile is obviously a secondary effect, otherwise you'd cast the missile first, then some sort of mark would allow you to dash.

The altar actually gives you less benefit the more you stay in it.

How doesn't it help the passive?

You're not saying anything relevant to melee about her 4 and rarely need that much coverage. Just because something has range doesn't mean that it has to be used a mile away.

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Because thats the wrong strategy.

You go in the room and cast dread mirror on the first mook you see. While hes on the ground you convert him into an altar. Since your health is now replenished you cast your sacrafice skill gain energy and then dash away. You mark everything from a safe distance and you either orb them to death or pick out your ignis and make them melt.

If i wouldnt know what game is this i would say that the whole thing sounds like something out of naruto or something similar, sudden attacks then a ranged finisher.

By that time anyone else has wiped the room, also the orb is obviously not a spam ability to "orb them to death" and if you havent stacked it, which requires more time, you're barely doing damage.

 

I wanted to show alternatives, but you just want to argue and prove your opinion is fact. She obviously feels lacking to you since you're shelving her, yet you deny any view but your own. Those "everyone" you mention that play her as a caster also screech that she lacks....get the hint. 

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1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

The list wasn't exclusive, Trinity is already considered the best tank by many, where is Harrow's heal and how does Revenant's kit work if you don't build for his abilities?

You're just nitpicking at this point. Ash is a stealth melee and I was obviously referring to tanky melees, also how is Nezha is a melee frame?

Sorry but when i read throught that line i couldnt do anything but point out the flaws.

Harrows heal and revenants kit relatively work the same way with or without mods all of the listed frames fit perfectly your list of perfect melee frame.

Nezha uses a chakram mainly, has strong damage buffs, mitgation and self healing.

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

1. No it isn't inconsistent, if you fail to take advantage that's another thing. It doesn't need a single mod do scale, this is plain wrong. It scales off absorbed damage, but like any ability it benefits from mods. Also you don't need to charge it, it can literally be fired in .5 sec.

2. And is also spamable and restores 25% of missing hp the second you land, she does benefit from not having 100% hp as well.

3. No. It's suicide when you build for Volt.

4. Just because everyone think it should be max charged for some reason doesn't mean it always should.

  1. Inconsistent as your enemies can literally shoot you in the leg, it also doesnt help against aoes. As for the scaling i meant the damage capture multipler because enemy damage is relatively low compared to their ehp even double amount is laughable. I actually tested this against lv 140 enemies in the simularcum some weeks ago and the damage absorbed as you said in the 0.5 sec is worthless and costs 50 energy at base.
  2. I did not doubt that, as i said earlier somewhere its a relatively good healing ability but it still locks you down in an area what is not exactly what you need for a melee oriented frame.
  3. ........
  4. Thats true but still coverage is coverage, i think in the best case the cast speed should be buffed to natural talent levels.
1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:
  1. So effective at a distance that it staggers enemies in melee. The blood missile is obviously a secondary effect, otherwise you'd cast the missile first, then some sort of mark would allow you to dash.
  2. The altar actually gives you less benefit the more you stay in it.
  3. How doesn't it help the passive?
  4. You're not saying anything relevant to melee about her 4 and rarely need that much coverage. Just because something has range doesn't mean that it has to be used a mile away.
  1. The main point is the shield what absorbs damage but otherwise it doesnt do anything. Due to its size and that enemies can hit your legs its best used from far away.
  2. Yeah thats true. Thats why you dont stay there long enough.
  3. It might help her passive but (personal opinion) i dont think her passive is something people should be strategizing around.
  4. That too true but in that way it help the team more than as some personal strike skill.

 

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

By that time anyone else has wiped the room, also the orb is obviously not a spam ability to "orb them to death" and if you havent stacked it, which requires more time, you're barely doing damage.

By the time i do anything with her someone already has wiped the room. Shes not a nuker so if any of those are in the team this is pointless to argue about.

In any sceniario where enemy spawns are constant i can use this setup perfectly fine to constantly debuff everything and make my team much stronger. The marks work for allies and allied skill suposedly turning several low damage skills into dangerous abilities.

1 hour ago, Ver1dian said:

I wanted to show alternatives, but you just want to argue and prove your opinion is fact. She obviously feels lacking to you since you're shelving her, yet you deny any view but your own. Those "everyone" you mention that play her as a caster also screech that she lacks....get the hint. 

Im a minmaxer by general, the very first thing i do is to analize a frames abilities and test out what is the max they can pull. The very first thing i done with garuda is trying out a melee approach and it didnt worked. My build was not made for pure tanking thats true but i still found her lacking because as i said earlier if i want to stack absurdish amounts of defenses and hp im gonna pick someone who is more sturdy and fitting for the role like inaros, nidus, valkyr, rhino or atlas.

What was left is the ranged role where i find her to be in an acceptable thought not soo impressing position.

The most basic buffs i would give her are these (if we keep current ability setup):

  1. +200 hp and armor, shields are removed
  2. Dread mirror now covers your leg, coverage is dependant on ability range,while flying you gain either 100% or 95% damage reduction.
  3. Blood altar first cast straps the caracass to your back so it becomes a portable healing unit. While dashing you gain either 100% or 95% damage reduction.
  4. Bloodletting gets decreased energy giveaway but also gives you 2 second invulnerability.
  5. Seeking talons start from max coverage and get drastrically increased charge speed. More charge decreases the coverage but increases talon numbers.
  6. The passive grants 80% damage bonus at top but this is avaible when you have 100 or less hp, for every 100 hp lost garuda also increases her exalted melee's damage by 10 points.
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On 2018-11-15 at 4:48 AM, 420-chan said:

I don't believe in the "support" thing since everyone should already have Magus Elevate or something else that heals to sustain themselves. Abilities that do nothing other than healing are completely redundant in Warframe. I would compare Garuda's 2 to Trinity's 1 since both make the enemies unkillable/tougher and provide nothing other than healing. At least you can still kill Trinity's heal pylons, but Garuda's are invincible and just stay there to interfere with mob spawns and defense waves until Garuda remembers to deactivate it. 

To me Garuda is basically a budget Rhino. Her 4 serves as a team damage buff like Rhino Roar, but it's slow and inconsistent. Her 3 is a way to activate her passive to buff her damage, like Rhino Roar but weaker. Her 1 is basically a budget Iron Skin that offers some survivability, but not nearly as reliable as Iron Skin. If Garuda wants to have good uptime of her 4 debuff on all enemies, she needs to be spamming 4 and doing little else. But why not just play Rhino and Roar and be done with it then? The only thing Garuda has that Rhino doesn't is... a 6 meter range heal pylon? Garuda's 4 does have good synergy with Equinox Maim though, I'll give her that. 

"since everyone should already have Magus Elevate or something else that heals to sustain themselves."

Welp I guess support frames are useless then.  Why have a frame do anything when you can do everything you need on your own?  (between your melee, consumables, operator, and warframe.)

No seriously.  This is a stupid argument.  Warframe is not, has not, and never will be a team based game.  We've been able to self sustain on everything we need for a long time now.  The "x is pointless because I have this" argument needs to go away.  If you want to say Garuda's heal ability is bad give an actual reason.  Not a cop out.  Compare her heal to others.  how effective it is, what's the setup, are their any quirks to it compared to others, etc.

If you think saying her heal ability is bad because you can heal yourself is a valid argument then I can easily say who cares about damage abilities when I can instant kill with guns.  Also your point about it stalling objective waves is moot.  The most you're going to run into is a 25 second duration altar.  And considering Garuda's nature she's not going to stick around and hover in that one heal.  she'll make more.  Meaning the prior will be released.  It doesn't stall an objective in any actual meaningful length of time compared to something like inaro's devouring an armored target.

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20 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

"since everyone should already have Magus Elevate or something else that heals to sustain themselves."

Welp I guess support frames are useless then.  Why have a frame do anything when you can do everything you need on your own?  (between your melee, consumables, operator, and warframe.)

No seriously.  This is a stupid argument.  Warframe is not, has not, and never will be a team based game.  We've been able to self sustain on everything we need for a long time now.  The "x is pointless because I have this" argument needs to go away.  If you want to say Garuda's heal ability is bad give an actual reason.  Not a cop out.  Compare her heal to others.  how effective it is, what's the setup, are their any quirks to it compared to others, etc.

If you think saying her heal ability is bad because you can heal yourself is a valid argument then I can easily say who cares about damage abilities when I can instant kill with guns.  Also your point about it stalling objective waves is moot.  The most you're going to run into is a 25 second duration altar.  And considering Garuda's nature she's not going to stick around and hover in that one heal.  she'll make more.  Meaning the prior will be released.  It doesn't stall an objective in any actual meaningful length of time compared to something like inaro's devouring an armored target.

You're actually absolutely right about dps skills being useless because of guns. Some frames do have skills that simply do a bit of damage, such as Volt 1 or Ember 3. These skills are actually made obsolete by weapons because their damage scales badly and they don't do anything else besides damage. Other damage skills such as Saryn 1 or Mesa 4 do far higher damage for the time it takes to cast them; they're a dps increase over even great weapons which makes them good damage skills. 

Support frames aren't useless because they provide things other than healing. Trinity gives infinite energy and 75% damage reduction. Harrow gives energy and red crits. Oberon give status immunity and automatic revives  

Im not sure what you don't understand about my argument about Magus Elevate. Currently there are no other operator arcanes worth using, so when discussing frames and builds Elevate should always be a point of consideration. Why should gear not be part of the discussion? Should Saryn be judged without Overextended or Mesa be judged without Streamline or Fleeting Expertise? Should Mirage be reviewed without any weapons and Harrow be rated without taking into consideration his 4 augment? Any holistic judgement of a warframe should consider the wide range of weapons, mods, and arcanes available to us. 

Garuda's 2 is a bad skill because it puts you in danger and heals slower than Magus Elevate. It also has bad synergy with the frame and warframe in general since the area of effect is such a small area, whereas the game requires you to be very mobile for most game modes. It's not a completely useless skill, but wouldn't you agree that's replacing it with something better that isn't redundant could help propel her into competing with the meta frames? As it stands she's an alright frame for beginners without Elevate since she's self-sufficient and hard to kill. That, however, doesn't make her a good frame all things considered. 

Edited by 420-chan
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I don't think she's weak. She has very high scaling potential with her 1 and 4.

I do think her abilities are a bit clunky to use.

Dread Mirror has some weird targeting issues every now and then. Sometimes I try to use it on some enemy standing on weird terrain and I just end up throwing out my blood orb by accident.

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On 2018-11-15 at 11:21 AM, 420-chan said:

Yes she is weak. Her 4 is the only reason to use her over other frames, but it casts slow and requires additional follow-up damage. Other frames would've killed the enemies way before that happens. If her 4 casts much faster than it does now, then she might be decent. 

1 question .. i haven't still played garuda yet ( need to wait couple days ) . .but you said slow caster .. is this with or without 

Natural Talent Mod 

-- Awaiting answer --

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Just now, -_Highlander_- said:

1 question .. i haven't still played garuda yet ( need to wait couple days ) . .but you said slow caster .. is this with or without 

Natural Talent Mod 

-- Awaiting answer --

With Natural Talent I think its slightly more intuitive.

Honestly don't think there's much of a difference with or without.

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If I could make a suggestion to slightly tweak Garuda, I'd speed up or adjust the animation for Dread Mirror and improve the targeting. Maybe even have the damage scale off melee mods and scale/add to the combo counter like Excalibur's Slash Dash.

For Seeking Talons, instead of having the ability radius increase the more you charge it, have it decrease kinda like Mesa's Peacemakers and the smaller the circle, the increased slash damage. So you start with a wide circle and it gets smaller the more you charge the ability.

Edited by Tricky5hift
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1 hour ago, 420-chan said:

You're actually absolutely right about dps skills being useless because of guns. Some frames do have skills that simply do a bit of damage, such as Volt 1 or Ember 3. These skills are actually made obsolete by weapons because their damage scales badly and they don't do anything else besides damage. Other damage skills such as Saryn 1 or Mesa 4 do far higher damage for the time it takes to cast them; they're a dps increase over even great weapons which makes them good damage skills. 

Woosh.

1 hour ago, 420-chan said:

Support frames aren't useless because they provide things other than healing. Trinity gives infinite energy and 75% damage reduction. Harrow gives energy and red crits. Oberon give status immunity and automatic revives  

Health and energy are both valuable resources that one always needs.  If you can get one from one thing that doesn't make all other sources irrelevant.  Like people who play with pizzas don't forgo arcane energize (so long as their build isn't dependent on specific arcanes) just because they already have pizzas.  Just as with operators.  Just because they can do something for you doesn't mean you shouldn't grab more of the same thing.  being able to heal with garuda without needing to carry life strike or an arcane is a benefit to have.

1 hour ago, 420-chan said:

Im not sure what you don't understand about my argument about Magus Elevate. Currently there are no other operator arcanes worth using, so when discussing frames and builds Elevate should always be a point of consideration. Why should gear not be part of the discussion? Should Saryn be judged without Overextended or Mesa be judged without Streamline or Fleeting Expertise? Should Mirage be reviewed without any weapons and Harrow be rated without taking into consideration his 4 augment? Any holistic judgement of a warframe should consider the wide range of weapons, mods, and arcanes available to us. 

Yes all things should be considered when making a build.  But that doesn't make things as black and white as you make it.  As I explained above having more than one healing source/energy source is never a bad thing.

1 hour ago, 420-chan said:

Garuda's 2 is a bad skill because it puts you in danger and heals slower than Magus Elevate. It also has bad synergy with the frame and warframe in general since the area of effect is such a small area, whereas the game requires you to be very mobile for most game modes. It's not a completely useless skill, but wouldn't you agree that's replacing it with something better that isn't redundant could help propel her into competing with the meta frames? As it stands she's an alright frame for beginners without Elevate since she's self-sufficient and hard to kill. That, however, doesn't make her a good frame all things considered. 

I don't have the arcane for the operator (MR 17) because i've not really cared to grind out for it so I can't speak on how effective it is.  But Garuda's heal is not bad at all.  it heals you based on missing health.  the first tick can heal 50% of your health if you were low enough.  And it's stackable with other altars.  Meaning it's good for  a quick burst heal.  Not something you sit in for an extended period of time.  Which is fine because nothing in her kit really encourages her to sit in place for extended periods of time.

You're no more or less in danger for turning an enemy into a blood altar than you are for using most abilities.  You can pounce an enemy and turn that enemy into an altar.  If there is still too much burst turn another dude into an altar on that one.  And both her 1&4 do have cc to them.  So if you really needed to you could tap either in the enemies direction and then heal up and pounce away.

No bad synergy here.  Her passive is in play whenever you're not at max health.  Her kit doesn't encourage you to play in low health either.  Her kit is a loop of energy=health=energy or health=energy=health.  she's always supposed to be expending one to get another.  and so because of this she never stays at full health.  But she never stays at low health.  And her passive gives you a little bit of damage boost for your weapons/abilities as a nice little thank you for playing this way.  I will give you that the radius is small.  But most people have range on anyway so it's not a big deal.

I'd say she's already a meta frame due to her ability to nuke anything in the game and give out slash procs like they're candy.  And you can easily pair a forced slash proc build with a high energy pool and quick thinking to fit any survival needs you need for much harder content.  Using her heal whenever you feel QT is popping too much.  She is a good frame.  Is she a great frame like rhino or nova?  Time will tell.  But the only bad aspects of her kit (bugs withstanding) is her 1 and 4's cast time and the base range of her 2.  She has scaling potential and decent enough survivability.  People are going waaaaay overboard with how harsh she's being judged.

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6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Woosh.

Health and energy are both valuable resources that one always needs.  If you can get one from one thing that doesn't make all other sources irrelevant.  Like people who play with pizzas don't forgo arcane energize (so long as their build isn't dependent on specific arcanes) just because they already have pizzas.  Just as with operators.  Just because they can do something for you doesn't mean you shouldn't grab more of the same thing.  being able to heal with garuda without needing to carry life strike or an arcane is a benefit to have.

Yes all things should be considered when making a build.  But that doesn't make things as black and white as you make it.  As I explained above having more than one healing source/energy source is never a bad thing.

I don't have the arcane for the operator (MR 17) because i've not really cared to grind out for it so I can't speak on how effective it is.  But Garuda's heal is not bad at all.  it heals you based on missing health.  the first tick can heal 50% of your health if you were low enough.  And it's stackable with other altars.  Meaning it's good for  a quick burst heal.  Not something you sit in for an extended period of time.  Which is fine because nothing in her kit really encourages her to sit in place for extended periods of time.

You're no more or less in danger for turning an enemy into a blood altar than you are for using most abilities.  You can pounce an enemy and turn that enemy into an altar.  If there is still too much burst turn another dude into an altar on that one.  And both her 1&4 do have cc to them.  So if you really needed to you could tap either in the enemies direction and then heal up and pounce away.

No bad synergy here.  Her passive is in play whenever you're not at max health.  Her kit doesn't encourage you to play in low health either.  Her kit is a loop of energy=health=energy or health=energy=health.  she's always supposed to be expending one to get another.  and so because of this she never stays at full health.  But she never stays at low health.  And her passive gives you a little bit of damage boost for your weapons/abilities as a nice little thank you for playing this way.  I will give you that the radius is small.  But most people have range on anyway so it's not a big deal.

I'd say she's already a meta frame due to her ability to nuke anything in the game and give out slash procs like they're candy.  And you can easily pair a forced slash proc build with a high energy pool and quick thinking to fit any survival needs you need for much harder content.  Using her heal whenever you feel QT is popping too much.  She is a good frame.  Is she a great frame like rhino or nova?  Time will tell.  But the only bad aspects of her kit (bugs withstanding) is her 1 and 4's cast time and the base range of her 2.  She has scaling potential and decent enough survivability.  People are going waaaaay overboard with how harsh she's being judged.

There was no wooosh. I know you weren't being serious with your remark but I'm telling you that it's  not as absurd as you think it is. 

I don't see how you can justify Garuda's healing against Harrow, Trinity, or Oberon's heal. All 3 of them heal in a far larger area that doesn't require your teammates to do anything specific to receive the healing. More importantly, their healing skills also do something useful outside of just healing. Trinity's 4 gives damage resistance; Harrow's 2 massively boost his damage output; Oberon's 3 revives teammates with augment. Garuda... crowd controls a target that should just be killed instead? It's literally a worse Trinity 1, and I haven't seen anyone justify that skill. 

Like I said before, there is no trade-off for using Magus Elevate. No other operator arcane is worth using. You either have it or you don't have an optimal build. Here's how Magus Elevate works: a single max rank Elevate has a 75% chance to heal your warframe for 200 when you press 5 and go into Operator mode. With a double set, this is on average 300 heal for simply pressing 5 twice. Also VERY importantly, you're completely immune to damage during the process of switching to operator and back. If you're at 2 health, you simply press 5 four times and you'll on average be restored to 602 health while being completely immune for the duration. It doesn't require you to jump into danger or to see an enemy in the first place to make use of it. Tell me how an on demand heal with built-in invincibility frame doesn't make Garuda's 2 obsolete?

Garuda is actually pretty anti-synergy when you actually consider your main role. Let's not pretend she provides anything to her team other than her 4, which requires her to be in a safe position to cast due to its long casting time. But her 1 and 2 encourage her to be in the fray. This leads to a very disjointed gameplay where one moment you're jumping into danger to cast your skills, and soon after you need to retreat into safety to cast you're 4. The most optimal way to play Garuda is to always stay at minimal health using your 3, and casting 4 as often as possible. Her healing is detrimental to that since it just gimps your damage. If you're in danger and need healing for some reason, would you want to put yourself in further danger by jumping into enemies to make an altar? Or just press 5 a couple times?

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I'm enjoying Garuda. You need to know when to use each of her skills and each one has a purpose that requires good judgement before casting. She requires a lot more thinking but doesn't reward you with ultimate power, but she does reward you with enough power.

My guess is that a lot of people don't care to learn her because you don't just press 4 and call it a day.

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