Garuda : Fun frame, not good enough.

[squirrel_killer-]

My opinion personally, curve the shield so it covers a 120 degree radius in front, improving close range survivability, because she REALLY wants to get in close and personal anyways. From there buff the radius on her 1 and 2, buff the charge time on her 4 and finally make the 3 toss some energy to nearby allies as well and that will make her an amazing DPS/Support hybrid that will play intuitively to how her abilities read and work, add a tiny bit more synergy between her 2 and 3, and just make her a beast to have on your side.

[IggySnow]

I still prefer antimater drop for the simple fact that it doesn't rely on a slow build up of damage from the enemies. With amd you can cast it, then 2 seconds later its ready to nuke the entire room. But with dread mirror, you have to purposely let enemies survive to charge it up, and even then in order to do enough damage to nuke a room you have to spend the time and energy to charge it up even further.

[iuki.]

all this charging business bugs me. while her 4 is ok by me i guess, but her 1 just feels so clunky and bad to play: while charging I am stuck in this slow molasses mode for eternity. I cant jump, run, or anything while doing so. this game play feels so cumbersome to use in a fast paced game such as this. bleh. yea, her 1 can do some absurb damage but it takes a lot of time to setup: by the time I get this stuff going, teammates have already wiped out the mobs anyways. or I could have just shot/melee'd the mobs to death and save myself a ton of time. meh.

Edited November 23, 2018 by iuki.

[PlanAHasFailed]

My only issues with Garuda at the moment:

• The base healing radius on her 2 is too short, severely limiting her movement if she wants to take full advantage of it.  Given that she is a squishy frame and has no area CC, staying mobile and using good positioning to get the most out of her shield is imperative.  The range should either be increased or have the healing effect remain on you for a short period of time after you leave the area.  
• The charge-up time on her 4 is way too long and stops your movement, which again is not good for a frame that relies on mobility to survive.  The charge-up should be drastically reduced or removed entirely.  
• There is no reason to use her claws over most melee weapons, which is a shame.  Giving them some bonus that synergizes with her kit would help.   

Other than these things, I think she's super fun to play.    

[Chronometria]

I am still trying to work out why the claws are status weapons and not crit based. I can see that they want it to make slash procs, for the theme, but to make that work you are going to have to put every other status on them and it would be better off making it crit with a special slash proc on the crit, like hunter munitions or whatever the mod is called. At the very least, if they are going to be status based, they should have a much higher status, or get a status bonus based on the health level passive. Maybe make them a hybrid weapon and improve the crit , because at the moment, they just don't compete with most other melee choices.

[koryfunny]

4 minutes ago, Chronometria said:

I am still trying to work out why the claws are status weapons and not crit based. I can see that they want it to make slash procs, for the theme, but to make that work you are going to have to put every other status on them and it would be better off making it crit with a special slash proc on the crit, like hunter munitions or whatever the mod is called. At the very least, if they are going to be status based, they should have a much higher status, or get a status bonus based on the health level passive. Maybe make them a hybrid weapon and improve the crit , because at the moment, they just don't compete with most other melee choices.

not really. not at all.
all you need is drifting contact for combo duration and weeping wounds for status stacking with combo counter. that all!
I like to add virulent scourge too for some toxin damage and get 100% status faster 

Edited November 24, 2018 by koryfunny

[GPrime96]

19 minutes ago, Chronometria said:

I am still trying to work out why the claws are status weapons and not crit based. I can see that they want it to make slash procs, for the theme, but to make that work you are going to have to put every other status on them and it would be better off making it crit with a special slash proc on the crit, like hunter munitions or whatever the mod is called. At the very least, if they are going to be status based, they should have a much higher status, or get a status bonus based on the health level passive. Maybe make them a hybrid weapon and improve the crit , because at the moment, they just don't compete with most other melee choices.

Valkyr would be your Answer if you want Crit based Claws.

[LascarCapable]

Sounds like a common complaint is Garuda being squishy despite having 300 armor and two abilities helping with survival.

To be honest, I kinda feel the same. One great healing and that shield mechanic and I still feel somewhat fragile. As I mentionned in the OP, the fact that the shield doesn't seem to block (or at least not reliably) anything AoE based is an issue (while Electric Shield blocks that stuff very easly). This needs to be fixed first. Perhaps Garuda's stat should recieve a bit of a one up too. Base hp might deserve to be raised to 150.

Also, I'm pretty sure raising the range of blood altar like I suggested in the OP would help very nicely too. You're going to have way less issues staying alive if you also get more consistant healing.

[GPrime96]

3 hours ago, D20 said:

Sounds like a common complaint is Garuda being squishy despite having 300 armor and two abilities helping with survival.

Since she got 740 Health (850 with Umbral Mods), 300 Armor isn't that much. Saryn Prime and Nidus have 925 and 1100 Health from just normal Vitality and they have similar base Armor. Garuda's Health is more at a area of Banshee, Trinity, and Nova. That's why i think of Garuda as a Glass Cannon with Healing.

Edited November 24, 2018 by GPrime96

[Azamagon]

3 hours ago, D20 said:

Sounds like a common complaint is Garuda being squishy despite having 300 armor and two abilities helping with survival.

To be honest, I kinda feel the same. One great healing and that shield mechanic and I still feel somewhat fragile. As I mentionned in the OP, the fact that the shield doesn't seem to block (or at least not reliably) anything AoE based is an issue (while Electric Shield blocks that stuff very easly). This needs to be fixed first. Perhaps Garuda's stat should recieve a bit of a one up too. Base hp might deserve to be raised to 150.

Also, I'm pretty sure raising the range of blood altar like I suggested in the OP would help very nicely too. You're going to have way less issues staying alive if you also get more consistant healing.

I guess this stems from her kit being a mix of two generally clashing styles: An aggressive melee and careful caster.

Her aggressive melee parts (Gapclosing effect of her #1 and #2, as well as her claw-passive) wants her to be up close and personal with enemies.

Her careful caster parts (Directional shield and nuke from #1, heal+sacrifice+power from her #2 + #3 + passive, her #4's directional nuke) all wants her to stay away in a corner.

I'd say that the best way to try and merge those two styles together would be to change her directional shield into something that aids her survivability from all directions instead (like raw damage-mitigation? That would synergize nicely with her #2's healing). If she can actually get into the fray and stay there with less worries about angling her DEFENSE (but still needing to angle / aim her OFFENSE with her 4 and 1), she'd probably play nicer in the chaotic environment of Warframe.

[koryfunny]

20 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

I guess this stems from her kit being a mix of two generally clashing styles: An aggressive melee and careful caster.

Her aggressive melee parts (Gapclosing effect of her #1 and #2, as well as her claw-passive) wants her to be up close and personal with enemies.

Her careful caster parts (Directional shield and nuke from #1, heal+sacrifice+power from her #2 + #3 + passive, her #4's directional nuke) all wants her to stay away in a corner.

I'd say that the best way to try and merge those two styles together would be to change her directional shield into something that aids her survivability from all directions instead (like raw damage-mitigation? That would synergize nicely with her #2's healing). If she can actually get into the fray and stay there with less worries about angling her DEFENSE (but still needing to angle / aim her OFFENSE with her 4 and 1), she'd probably play nicer in the chaotic environment of Warframe.

I second that

[GPrime96]

I learned something about Garuda so far, When she leaps during her 1st ability on a higher level enemy, and creates her Shield, she would store up below 30K or mid 20K in her Orb. At the low levels, It would be below 6K at the most. I guess the 4x Damage Capture Multiplier (when you have 200% PS) seems to give it a scaling increase of damage to her Orb when she captures a enemy at higher Levels instead of just making her Claws damaging them. It also stacks with the existing damage of her Orb when you cast 1 on another enemy. I do wish the description of her abilities be more clear though. It seriously lack Information about her Mechanics.

[Threa]

On 2018-11-19 at 9:14 AM, Ikusias said:

To Op: nice analysis of garuda.

My personal gripes?

- She shouldn't need a slot permanently occupied by Natural Talent because her #4 is so damn slow to charge to max radius (and energy intensive even with the bloodletting crutch)

- her passive should have just been an energy regen when damaged like the rage mods... current passive is demanding to be oneshotted

I agree completely. I think her passive needs to be tweaked or just changed to what you suggested or something similar. 

[koryfunny]

14 minutes ago, Threa said:

I agree completely. I think her passive needs to be tweaked or just changed to what you suggested or something similar. 

No, no, no and again No.

that will make her 3 completely useless, destroy the idea behind Garuda's current passive of staying low health, and is generally a BAD IDEA!

what she need is something to help her survive on low health without relying on mods like Adaptation which compensates for her incompetent shield

Edited November 25, 2018 by koryfunny

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Azamagon:

I guess this stems from her kit being a mix of two generally clashing styles: An aggressive melee and careful caster.

Personally i feel that dichotomy is one of the aspects that makes her interesting to play really. Hit n run.

vor 20 Stunden schrieb D20:

Also, I'm pretty sure raising the range of blood altar like I suggested in the OP would help very nicely too.

Maybe it could use a bit more range, but i think DE shouldn't overdo it. There's hardly a reason not to have the field perma-coated with altars after all, with her symbiotic energy / health relation thanks to altar / bloodletting.

[Ikusias]

8 hours ago, koryfunny said:

No, no, no and again No.

that will make her 3 completely useless, destroy the idea behind Garuda's current passive of staying low health, and is generally a BAD IDEA!

what she need is something to help her survive on low health without relying on mods like Adaptation which compensates for her incompetent shield

The problem is that with her base stats to survive at low HP it requires a specialized build that is actually detrimental to her entire kit... You end needing 4-5 defensive mods out of 8 slots on her to work survive.

Something about the above seems damn wrong, her apparent role is being an assault meatblender similar to valkyr (that needs full on invincibility with caveats to do so! and gets wreked by any kind of nullification), yet her defenses are quite mediocre without a total investmet in them, leaving the scraps for offense.

Above all her entire kit suffers from 1 macroscopic problem: all it's abilities, combos etc. are too slow in the current game contest, resulting in heaps of energy wasted because the rest of the squad already depopulated the map by the moment she's ready.

All her abilities have potentially decent scalability in high level were tougher enemies don't evaporate instantly and have hardened defenses that her bleed procs bypass neatly, but the frame itself lacks the necessary survivability to capitalize on that.

Her #1 Dread Mirror is lackluster and quite unreliable as a defense with attacks from a lot of units totally bypassing it and its shape giving it bad coverage on top of that.

Her #1 leap also suffers a lot from finniky aiming, with frequent instances of getting gunned down because the obdurate power didn't activate due to whatever reason - obstacle - the Hek in the way - worse than the old Ash' #4 aiming issues, to a point of being damn frustrating... it seems it also work only on enemies at or below your level, with actual flyers being a partial exception.

The blood sphere detonation is potentially devastating specially in combo with her #4 but suffer from being a slow flying projectile and having a small Aoe... would have been better if her #4 could drain it to boost the damage of the 6 seeking talons or that the Aoe range expanded with the enxtra energy pumped in when charging the sphere.

About flying enemies, the leap is missing an importan ability: dragging them to the ground! this makes follow up attacks awkard to say the least.

#2 Blood altar suffers from 2 shortcomings: mediocre range and mediocre balance power strenght / health return as it needs around 200% power strenght to reach acceptable healing with all 3 altars up! Even operator arcanes give better return with less work (but much more farming T_T) than that and some frames simply obliterate this ability out to the scarpyard. Suffers from occasional targeting issues but at least that is mitigated by the path of its execution being a simple forward dash instead of a leap. Said issues are a problem when trying to setup multiple altars while in close melee as there's a consistent risk of freeing the previous victims instead of activating more altars!

#3 combined with her passive feel interesting if it wasn't that she needs to be at 2hp for an actual tangible benefit!? Really someone was high as a kite when writing down this one... Blodletting is a bad ability due to a simple reason: infinite healing/energy generation by cycling blood altar and bloodletting ad nauseam - Garuda is energy hungry, but this gimmik is ill tought with trinity ofthen debated due to a similar issue.

Bloodletting is also lacking any defensive benefit or offensive bonus - it's simply a battery ability that should combo with garuda's passive... pity that both put the frame in a very bad spot! worse insult is that the attack bonus (100% at 2 hp? really?) resets at the slightest healing! WTH?! were's the utility? must we all equip quick thinking +adaptation+the set mod that mimics quick thinking to benefit from this crap mechanic??? and primed flow to have enogh energy reserve to actually survive, and health and amrour mods on top!

So we are using health + armour + primed flow + quick thinking + set mod + adaptation... 6 mods out of 8! just to have any safety in trying to use her passive?! For 100% bonus damage and letting anything instakill Garuda trough all this? What a bad investment.
 

What is the actual range of her #4?? I've got very inconsistent beaviour in that regard, same with walls and doors penetration...

Sorry for the wall of text T_T

Edited November 25, 2018 by Ikusias

[GPrime96]

22 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

The problem is that with her base stats to survive at low HP it requires a specialized build that is actually detrimental to her entire kit... You end needing 4-5 defensive mods out of 8 slots on her to work survive.

Bloodletting is also lacking any defensive benefit or offensive bonus - it's simply a battery ability that should combo with garuda's passive... pity that both put the frame in a very bad spot! worse insult is that the attack bonus (100% at 2 hp? really?) resets at the slightest healing! WTH?! were's the utility? must we all equip quick thinking +adaptation+the set mod that mimics quick thinking to benefit from this crap mechanic??? and primed flow to have enogh energy reserve to actually survive, and health and amrour mods on top!

So we are using health + armour + primed flow + quick thinking + set mod + adaptation... 6 mods out of 8! just to have any safety in trying to use her passive?! For 100% bonus damage and letting anything instakill Garuda trough all this? What a bad investment.
 

All of this is why her Passive needs a serous look at. Relying on that is the worse thing to do when you play as Garuda at higher level. Although the Damage buff is a muplicative one, it’s only worth using in the Simulacrum and it can get lost immediately too. 

[Rhyandra]

They only need to make her 4 and 1 less clunky since they're so reliant on each other. Not only does it take ages to execute the combo, it also doesnt feel worth it because your teammates have killed already everything within that time. 

Seeking Talons needs to be instant with the full radius and her 1 needs to less clunky and not restrict her movement at all. If those things would be fixed, she'd be my go to frame for every mission.

Oh, I forgot.. and she needs at the very least 800 base armor, if DE doesn't plan on buffing her blood altar

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Karu-QW

[koryfunny]

43 minutes ago, Ikusias said:

The problem is that with her base stats to survive at low HP it requires a specialized build that is actually detrimental to her entire kit... You end needing 4-5 defensive mods out of 8 slots on her to work survive.

Something about the above seems damn wrong, her apparent role is being an assault meatblender similar to valkyr (that needs full on invincibility with caveats to do so! and gets wreked by any kind of nullification), yet her defenses are quite mediocre without a total investmet in them, leaving the scraps for offense.

Above all her entire kit suffers from 1 macroscopic problem: all it's abilities, combos etc. are too slow in the current game contest, resulting in heaps of energy wasted because the rest of the squad already depopulated the map by the moment she's ready.

All her abilities have potentially decent scalability in high level were tougher enemies don't evaporate instantly and have hardened defenses that her bleed procs bypass neatly, but the frame itself lacks the necessary survivability to capitalize on that.

Her #1 Dread Mirror is lackluster and quite unreliable as a defense with attacks from a lot of units totally bypassing it and its shape giving it bad coverage on top of that.

Her #1 leap also suffers a lot from finniky aiming, with frequent instances of getting gunned down because the obdurate power didn't activate due to whatever reason - obstacle - the Hek in the way - worse than the old Ash' #4 aiming issues, to a point of being damn frustrating... it seems it also work only on enemies at or below your level, with actual flyers being a partial exception.

The blood sphere detonation is potentially devastating specially in combo with her #4 but suffer from being a slow flying projectile and having a small Aoe... would have been better if her #4 could drain it to boost the damage of the 6 seeking talons or that the Aoe range expanded with the enxtra energy pumped in when charging the sphere.

About flying enemies, the leap is missing an importan ability: dragging them to the ground! this makes follow up attacks awkard to say the least.

#2 Blood altar suffers from 2 shortcomings: mediocre range and mediocre balance power strenght / health return as it needs around 200% power strenght to reach acceptable healing with all 3 altars up! Even operator arcanes give better return with less work (but much more farming T_T) than that and some frames simply obliterate this ability out to the scarpyard. Suffers from occasional targeting issues but at least that is mitigated by the path of its execution being a simple forward dash instead of a leap. Said issues are a problem when trying to setup multiple altars while in close melee as there's a consistent risk of freeing the previous victims instead of activating more altars!

#3 combined with her passive feel interesting if it wasn't that she needs to be at 2hp for an actual tangible benefit!? Really someone was high as a kite when writing down this one... Blodletting is a bad ability due to a simple reason: infinite healing/energy generation by cycling blood altar and bloodletting ad nauseam - Garuda is energy hungry, but this gimmik is ill tought with trinity ofthen debated due to a similar issue.

Bloodletting is also lacking any defensive benefit or offensive bonus - it's simply a battery ability that should combo with garuda's passive... pity that both put the frame in a very bad spot! worse insult is that the attack bonus (100% at 2 hp? really?) resets at the slightest healing! WTH?! were's the utility? must we all equip quick thinking +adaptation+the set mod that mimics quick thinking to benefit from this crap mechanic??? and primed flow to have enogh energy reserve to actually survive, and health and amrour mods on top!

So we are using health + armour + primed flow + quick thinking + set mod + adaptation... 6 mods out of 8! just to have any safety in trying to use her passive?! For 100% bonus damage and letting anything instakill Garuda trough all this? What a bad investment.
 

What is the actual range of her #4?? I've got very inconsistent beaviour in that regard, same with walls and doors penetration...

Sorry for the wall of text T_T

I agree with EVERYTHING you said, literally everything!

what I don't agree at all is this: 

9 hours ago, Threa said:

On 2018-11-19 at 7:14 PM, Ikusias said:

 

- her passive should have just been an energy regen when damaged like the rage mods... current passive is demanding to be oneshotted

I agree completely. I think her passive needs to be tweaked or just changed to what you suggested or something similar. 

No. replacing her passive with something like Rage is just a really, REALLY stupid idea.

replacing her damage bonus passive with energy regen passive not only makes her 3 obsolete, but also completely destroy the idea DE had for Garuda's unique gameplay!
I mean, if I don't get any benefits from going low-life, and I have energy regen so I don't ever have to use 3, then I'll just simply spamm 2 all-day-long and stay in the healing! I'm sure that will be fun . . .

 

there are far better suggestions all around the Garuda feedback forums that deal with the points you highlighted above (which, like I said I agree with) 

[koryfunny]

I just hope that what Pablo calls a "small" and "very minor" changes that Garuda gonna recieve soon will be significant enough for us

[Ikusias]

On a side note about cosmetics:

Could we have the drapes on Garuda's arms turned into auxiliaries with their own color slots? keeping them tied to the main body colors is a waste and ruins fashionframe...

Also the decorations on both drapes can onlybe seen when she's in her default colors, any change has them "disappearing"

[GPrime96]

11 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

Why not give her 100 critical damage max when her health drops at 50%.

I can see that being used. It would work well with her 3.

[Lancars]

Honestly i stacked knockdown recovery with her and that really helps. Plus i keep up several alters as i dash about. She doesn't seem like the stand still type of frame. You need to think about placement. Alter here and there and you're good since making a new one doesn't shut off the others. i jump between her 1st and 2nd and i make sure to give the alter victim a hit with something so when it runs out they die instead of getting back up.

Dread Heart would be ace if you could channel it while aim gliding. Helps avoid flopping it when someone steps into your crosshairs at a bad moment.

[UcanDomates]

Hey Tenno!

I had to do some cleaning in this thread. Keeping it civil and staying at topic will be mostly appreciated, and also;

Garuda is nice. 👌

[GPrime96]

34 minutes ago, UcanDomates said:

Hey Tenno!

I had to do some cleaning in this thread. Keeping it civil and staying at topic will be mostly appreciated, and also;

Garuda is nice. 👌

Thanks for the cleaning because it was needed and i would agree with Garuda but not sure how she would be after the changes she would receive from Pablo.