if stalker mode cannot be opt out.

[(XBOX)VaricBreem]

The biggest issue  i have is NOT the pvp,But the resulting inevitable NERFS that will comeynd  a chance from it,

None of my frames would be scared of a player controlled stalker , Mainly because  most things i have  built are meant for end  game , and stalker is NOT end  game  , my weapons are built to kill lvl 200+ enemies , not some poor lvl 60 stalker  who i usually one shot  upon him losing his invincibility

So heres the catch , that poor lvl 60  Player controlled stalker  will still  get  curbed  stomp  against any decently  geared     person,

so They will start crying "Balance" Followed  by "nerf pls"

and the only ones who will actually be  enjoying the stalker mode will be the ones actively hunting low  MR players  where they stand a chance leading to  threads like  "I'm new and this guy just came  in  killed me and spammed "Git Gud Scrub" in my pms" 

Which will lead to the game suddenly  being balanced  around  squad vs  invader , instead of the HORDE shooter it is.

So in the  end  people who play this game  for the Power Fantasy shooter that it is  will start to  feel   less enjoyment because all of their builds and weapons  suddenly are alot weaker leading to  a  very disgruntled MAJORITY of the player base

and again I'm Fine if some   guy  who  enjoys/deserves   getting his teeth kicked in for invading my game , makes me stop  turn and shoot him once or twice because  he was  dumb enough to take   stalker  against my  multi formada min maxed frames and  weapons 

But the    Nerfs  that will come to the PVE side of the game  because  PVP was added  to it , and they will Come  dont deny it  you all know the salt will flow  whne the stalker players  invade a low  mr expecting that  easy kill and  to send  that "git GUD" message, only  to run into his  higher MR  friend  who was  helping him clear the star  chart and  bite the dust instantly 

No one  can say this wont happen  everyone  knows it  will... so  go ahead  advocate for this     see the  game   drilled into the dirt because  the  game  starts  Changing from what  works, I mean it worked for Fallout 76 and  Immortal Right, Their  player base was not alienated at all..../sarcasm

[StinkyPygmy]

12 hours ago, JqHades said:

Honestly I'm not sure why it's such a fuss. Stalker has always been an easy kill, at least if it's a real player I might get to have some fun with it. Of course, the whole thing reminds me of Dark Souls style invasions, and I liked those too.

A lot of people just wanna be left alone to do their thing

12 hours ago, (PS4)dursereg said:

Simple solution , quit killing bosses you won't be marked i.e. you opted out.

Thats obviously not a solution.

[DatDarkOne]

Ok.  I'll offer an Olive branch to the Pro-Stalker Mode group.  I'll completely accept your Player Stalker mode on one condition. That the Stalker doesn't have the same ability to know where even invisible players are at all times.  That means not able to even see the outlines of Cloak arrow bubbles, Octavia's effects from her powers, etc, and their level never goes as high (like lvl 100) as AI Stalker does in sorties and special missions.  

You give me that, and you can do whatever you want. Have fun.

Edited December 8, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[(XBOX)VaricBreem]

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Ok.  I'll offer an Olive branch to the Pro-Stalker Mode group.  I'll completely accept your Player Stalker mode on one condition. That the Stalker doesn't have the same ability to know where even invisible players are at all times.  That means not able to even see the outlines of Cloak arrow bubbles, Octavia's effects from her powers, etc, and their level never goes as high (like lvl 100) as AI Stalker does in sorties and special missions.  

You give me that, and you can do whatever you want. Have fun.

TBH i don care if he scales past 100, long as my PVE builds in a PVE setting dont get nerfed

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, (XB1)VaricBreem said:

TBH i don care if he scales past 100, long as my PVE builds in a PVE setting dont get nerfed

Sadly we all know they will be screaming nerf as soon as someone mercs them with the Operator or Magnetize with Mag or even flying Titania. 

[LupisV0lk]

Let's not beat around the bush. As soon as someone is out performed by another player with X weapon or frame the Calls for a nerfing happens, PvE or PvP be dammed.

Edited December 8, 2018 by LupisV0lk

[(PSN)Zero_029]

7 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Because this matters to me, I want to pass along something I've seen, but I can't say where it came from, however if you accept that I have no reason to lie on the topic (Look at my post history, I was taking DE Scott's statements as true until a little while ago).

A DE staffer has stated that Stalker mode "will be ‘opt-in’ on the users end"

I can't say any more on the topic, nor say who or where or what context that was said in, but given the topic and previous DE statement I felt this was important to pass on.

I believe you.

Not to sound rude but its thenthenonly actual option DE has & it's the common sense on DE's part.

DE has shown themselves to be far from stupid. And while the Opt-In/Out will most likely make the mode essentially Dead On Arrival.

Its the only way for them to add the mode as is, not violate player rights, avoid griefing/trolling, yet offer veterans a "challenge".

[Fireclaymore]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

I believe you.

Not to sound rude but its thenthenonly actual option DE has & it's the common sense on DE's part.

DE has shown themselves to be far from stupid. And while the Opt-In/Out will most likely make the mode essentially Dead On Arrival.

Its the only way for them to add the mode as is, not violate player rights, avoid griefing/trolling, yet offer veterans a "challenge".

I can't agree with you on the part about the ONLY way. I'll have a rather large and nuanced point in a few minutes.

I think the people worrying about this aren't taking into account balance and incentives to engaging both AS AND AGAINST Stalker. Please hold on for my detailed post before making an angry or thoughtless response.(not calling you thoughtless, but anyone who's just throwing out one-liners that don't actually address issues)

Edited December 8, 2018 by Fireclaymore

[Fireclaymore]

I think the point that continually makes me wonder why people have issue with this the most is: all that happens is Stalker's target gets downed and then he leaves just like he would normally. That is the MAIN reason why I see no issue in this, so please address that first. The rest is supposed to be a constructive and nuanced reasoning of why I think it can be a fairly harmless addition to the game.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but unless it's an explicit game mode, they have knobs to turn that can make player-controlled stalker a rare event or else you'd have it occur more often than simple AI controlled ones. A lot of people don't want PVP, okay but I can understand that, but I can think of plenty of ways to make attempts at balancing the situation and make it potentially appealing.

1.First and foremost: Chance of occurrence

Unless you literally want to have an immense population of Stalkers marauding the normal games mode, you make the option of playing Stalker a rare event in itself. It can be a rare drop item(like 0.01-0.001% chance whatever makes sense) that lets you have a one-time chance or one-time success out of 2 or 3 chances at playing Stalker, it can be players working on a new faction that limit 1-3 attempts/successful attempts in a day/week(Like the weekly Ayatan and Clem quests). I'm more inclined to the former(rare drop) since it'll make it occur more randomly than heavy invasion count during the first few days of a week. Given an insanely low drop chance like 0.001% and this will occur even less often than normal Stalkers.

If you follow the guidelines for invasions already in place, then these Stalkers cannot appear any time past approximately 5 minutes into a mission. If it's a wave-based mission then set it to something like waves 1-5 for defense or 1-3 on others. This means that they can't ruin long runs for you, and in any case where they succeed, the setback should not be enough for a squad to fail missions unless they were already significantly behind, and it's so early on restart shouldn't be much trouble if they indeed need it.

Do not let them into Sorties and Arbitrations(unless it's for an event?).

2.Second: Trolling

Give the Stalker a time limitation so they can't just screw around all day. A 45-second to 1 minute time in defense, maybe 2 or 3 minutes in other modes because Stalker would have to hunt a runner.

Give him objectives to accomplish that force him into actions that the AI would take part in like downing the one specific target. If they put the effort into downing other players outside of their target, the only reward they get is in making it easier to down their actual target.

Disallow damage on the STATIONARY Defense targets. I find the ability to damage excavators(maybe not these since stationary), turn on survival capsules, and downing other targets compelling reasons for players to join in killing the Stalker instead of running. This way the event goes by quicker if players engage instead of run. While Stalker is doing damage to objectives it'll make it easier for players to actively kill him. Even if the Stalker does engage in striking down the Squad's objectives, these objectives are REPLACEABLE, and because it would only be a few minutes into a mission, it should already be hard for Squads to fail.

3. Why?(Incentives)

There has to be a compelling reason for players to actually play as the Stalker and to want to defeat a player-controlled Stalker. In most cases, I find that simple Evergreen rewards would do. Give Squads a CHANCE to get rivens/arcanes/potatoes, a guaranteed drop of the planet's rare resource(or 2), and increased drop rate on all his normal stuff.

Give a successful Stalker the option to pick a random Riven(their choice of type), maybe a random Arcane(maybe not and leave these relegated only to their existing locations), their choice of Reactor or Catalyst, or a relatively large sum of Rare Resources or an even larger sum of Normal Resources, or their pick of affinity or resource Booster. If it's a weekly option to play, then make this another rep grind.

I don't like the idea of pure exclusives in this mode that affect gameplay, so a long-term reward for Squads can be a sigil on low drop chance. For Stalkers they can get a glyph or sigil after X number of successful hunts or a rep gate.

This mode should become  as seamless as any other kind of invasion and should be able to occur just as quickly and inconsequentially.

4. Balance

The odds are stacked against the Stalker and should be given circumstances to help him. We are not nerfing the Squad's existing abilities. Very few warframe abilities even effect the Stalker anyway and so it'll have similar behavior to the AI.

Spawn in random location: The Stalker would need invincibility that lasts a few seconds into spawning or else he'll end up like AI Stalker and die in an nth of a second after standing up. This is not okay. Why? Because people would not even bother to play Stalker and thus, the community will lose out on the net benefit of these rewards(because more likely than not, the Stalker will fail and potentially 4 people will get these drops). This makes the Squad seek the Stalker if they wish to and allows the hunted player to simply run. The fact that the Stalker does not spawn beside his target signals the Squad that it's a player. This gives them time to set up shop

Stalker's tools:

Two types

Regular Stalker: Can use his Dread and thus has a proper projectile to sneakily down players, does not have sentient adaptation and can be oneshot if easily.

Sentient Stalker: Is forced to engage with War. has exalted blade projectiles on a cooldown, has sentient light show, and sentient adaptation(it's not uncommon for these guys to still get oneshot anyway, but should be harder).

I'm more inclined to have only Regular Stalker because having a Dread to snipe targets would be damn useful, but potentially still difficult to do so because it's a projectile and not hitscan.

Common tools and abilities: things both types should be able to do and are what normal Stalkers already do.

Slash Dash: Like old Excalibur

Nullify: to get rid of pesky defensive or other on-going abilities in use

Ability immunity: It's already a thing(though I think he's still affected by the likes of  Nova's 4 and some other aoe cc like Rhino stomp) Whatever the case, make it consistent with AI Stalkers. He can still be hit by Exalted blade, Dex pixias, and other melee exalted weapons but shouldn't be a target of Regulators

Room Lockdown: The current room the Stalker is standing in locks doors and turns on full alert(Make this an equipment so that is one-time use)

The next two may or may not be omitted depending on if it gives too much in favor of the Stalker.

Pull: Force the target to a random location within a few meters of the Stalker(probably also make this 1 or 2 use equipment with a cooldown) The location is random so that Stalkers can't just use it then instantly headshot their target. This needs to be a thing to give Stalkers a hair of a chance at catching extremely mobile targets while being attacked by other players.

Teleport: Like pull but instead, Stalker teleports to a random location near the target. Limited number of uses, and cannot use immediately after spawning(same for Pull).

[All of these abilities are limited-number-use or cooldown gated, not limited to energy usage]

Invisible Tenno are actually invisible, however, they can Nullify within a certain range if they feel like they're being watched....

Their radar shows EVERYTHING as red except for their target. Their target has a big fat yellow objective sign on them even if they're invisible and can be seen both in-game and on the map.

Nothing will change about what Squads can do to combat the Stalker. What is probably the most difficult thing to contend with is hitting a much more agile target who may actually decide to sneak around instead. Even the accuracy of aim is likely worse on a player than the AI Stalker.

The Stalker should go in expecting low odds of success and no player names should actually appear in-game or recent players. The Stalker should not be able to see the chat and cannot explicitly communicate with the Squad. This can help people worrying about this toxic whispers and tamp down peoples expectations of Stalker being instawin.

Conclusion:

Give people a reason to want to fight Stalker like a chance at potato drops, give them the option to just extract and miss out on fighting him if they really want to, give the Stalker no new abilities or options that AI Stalker doesn't already have, give the Stalker a time limit and limited ability to damage objectives, make these rare events, and make the absolute goal of a Stalker to simply DOWN their target just like literally all the other invaders and AI Stalker.

Hell, just like Prime Time has shown, allow the Stalker to just run around as a 5th Squadmate if they want to for that limited time they're allowed. In this case allow them any random drops from npc enemies.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Fireclaymore
Extra colors so the eyes don't get so tired and grammar

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, Fireclaymore said:

I can't agree with you on the part about the ONLY way. I'll have a rather large and nuanced point in a few minutes.

I think the people worrying about this aren't taking into account balance and incentives to engaging both AS AND AGAINST Stalker. Please hold on for my detailed post before making an angry or thoughtless response.(not calling you thoughtless, but anyone who's just throwing out one-liners that don't actually address issues)

All good. I'll wait. I'm actually not here to throw haymakers.
I also am just worn out about the topic.

Below is a post I made in another thread about this issue. It doesn't fully corollate per say with this exact thread/topic but some of it will explain my viewpoint:
 

Spoiler

Right now, I have weapons that LITERALLY 1 Shot Shadow Stalker, my Operator also kills him in 1 shot & is so strong that a full Melee Combo from both Stalker (The Tough Stalker) & Shadow Stalker (The Weak Stalker) cannot kill him. I've stood inside the Sentient Disco Orb.

If Destiny PVP which of course Bungie constantly "claims" (insert Eye Roll here) never influences their PVE changes or will negatively effect PVE (Go do a search yourself to see how BS that is...)…is PLAGUED by constant changes due to the PVP side of the game.
PVE Weapons in Forsaken alone have rocked PVP to its very core in that game. Not for the better either, Black Armory recently unleashed the first wave of nerfs to PVE weapons & folks are not happy.

Now, for the sake of argument, lets say Stalker Mode exists...whether it is a conclave mode, or a mode you have to earn the right to unlock, a once a day thing, whatever.
The anger, rage, salt, & toxicity that'll flood the game when Stalker spawns in & is immediately 1 shot, Team Shot, Overwhelmed via a full squad of Tenno, or had an amp shoved up his posterior then launched into the Tau System will be absolutely insane.

These forums would be plagued by Stalker Mode threads whining about:
- It isn't fair that Tenno I invade keep their PVE loadouts. When I invade they should be forced to equip PVP loadouts so it can be a "skillful" fight.
- Team Shots are for (censored)! DE, Team Shooting is out of control.
- (Weapon Name) killed me in (1, 2, or 3) shots. This is BROKEN!!!
- Players should not be able to summon their Operator when Stalker invades. This is unfair!
- Operators are OP!
- (Warframe) is OP!

And so on...
I have maxed all my focus trees, unlocked all Waybounds, & I've got atleast 1 Max rank of each & every Operator Arcane. My Operator is literally more powerful than all my Warframes.
Shadow Stalker is as tough as a Grineer Butcher for my Operator. So I can already see the whispers/tells & PSN messages I'd get after an invasion.
It won't go well.
And I'll be damned before all my hard work gets reduced because someone is upset they can't touch me with Stalker.

That said, I've been very vocal on why this mode is a bad idea. Not for ME. But because I've taken about 4 IRL friends under my wing & been teaching them this game.
Due to the Weapon Progression reworks, I can seriously say that the game is more difficult for new players than ever before.
Stalker as a result is truly terrifying to fight for new players.
I thought of this thread today as I fought Stalker for my friend.
Long story short, he was doing the first mission on Mars & Stalker started to spawn. My jaw DROPPED. As I never encountered him for the first time until I had hit Jupiter.
My friend has only been playing for 3 days. He has a level 28 Excalibur, MK.1 Paris, Lato, Heat Sword & a slew of mostly Flawed Mods.
I being a sadist told him to trust me & I took the controller from him.

Won't lie...that was an epic fight. My friends jaw dropped as he watched me peck away at Stalker with what was essentially me spitting wet tissue paper at him.
It took me nearly 10 minutes to defeat him because he kept vanishing. (Which I admit, made me sweat...as receiving 1 hit was guaranteed death.)

After the encounter I seriously thought about this thread. I asked myself...if that had been a player there would have been NO way for that to be a fair fight.
Additionally, had I been a new player I would be deterred from the game because just the AI Stalker at that stage of the game was brutal. For a player to be behind him would be demoralizing. (Let's be honest...Veterans would be the first & the majority of Stalker Mode users.)

Additionally, I realized another severe problem with Stalker. He typically goes from extremely tough, to extremely easy with the flip of a switch. As the turning point for him difficulty wise is essentially The War Within. After that point in the game, most players have the experience, gear, & mods to trivialize him & he becomes an annoyance. Before that point he's a challenge & more of an "Oh S#&$!" moment.

So really, just like Destiny 2's Quickplay PVP... (Hey, it's meant for Streamers to sit back & chill right?)
Stalker Mode is basically just punishment for new players. Which isn't a good way to go about things.
Add in the fact that DE doesn't want the mode to go ignored (No Opt Out.) if implemented (Which it would.) then DE is basically making a legitimate mode that is designed to punish/troll new players for trying to clear/progress/play the game.

Honestly, if this mode were added. The only players with it on "Toggled On"/"Opt-In" would be Veterans who will & already do kill Stalker without even noticing he spawned in.
Stalker players would spawn in to be beaten like some kind of armless, legless thing, & be blown away...like a Turd...in the Wind...
New players would get ganked once...& either quit Warframe, or via Region Chat, YouTube, or Wiki turn the mode off.

So...
New player complaints flooding forums... *Check*
Stalker Players complaints flooding forums *Check*
Veteran Player complaints & arguments over Stalker players asking for nerfs *Check*

Yeah...this mode will bring NOTHING positive to Warframe.

Pardon my tone & bad paragraphing. Worked a 10hr shift...I'm kind of dead atm.

Hopefully that will help clarify somewhat, where I am coming from.

Of course you post as my phone finally finishes sending my reply. I'm at work so give me a few minutes to read & reply to your new post!

Edited December 8, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029

[EmberStar]

9 hours ago, Toppien said:

if thats the case then good riddance to them, i dont see people complaining about the AI stalker ¬¬

people is so triggered cuz they will know a human being put them in shame? oh boy XD

Oh, look.  A PVP fan has tried to imply that I'm a coward because I don't want to PVP.  How shocking.  Not.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

How about an Opt-In option once you do your first fight with NPC Stalker as you being the target?

You get your first boss mark, open your letter, fight Stalker that has come for you you....and win or lose, you get a letter that says " Your Actions Have Consequences- Choose your path. If you would like, you have the option of having the Stalker be a player. Press A to have this ability. Do nothing and you will only have the NPC Stalker come after you."

This way, you KNOW that it is the NPC that is talking to you in the window but have no idea if the one targeting another player is NPC or Player. Since you are not the target of Stalker, do what you normally would-  keep playing your way or help the player out. Either way, it would play out the same for you. 

Make the Stalker have higher interaction abilities depending on the targets MR. The higher the target is, the more he can interact with the mission. Yet also, make it that there are levels of how the Stalker can go. For instance, he can only hit the Def target to a certain amount of damage before it becomes immune to him and the game forces him to face his target. Or have if he does not get the Target in a certain amount of time, the whole map turns on him as #1 Enemy. 

Give PvP Stalker a different drop table for those who are Opted In. For those who are not, they have the standard drop table. Make it a Chameleon mod that only shows up for Opt Ins during the Inbox as a way of saying the Player failed but the NPC still has a chance. Make it a in game "joke" where the Stalker says..."I do not know what came over me but this was in my Inbox to send to you. I will come for you."

Opt Ins can only be the target of a PvP Stalker once each 6 hours. 

I dunno....it would change the game up some but that is one of the things we all enjoy about WARFRAME. It changes. No matter what happens in WARFRAME, there are always complaints. But mayhaps there will be some fun as well as some found challenge that seems fair as well. Who knows....I know I don't....but I would like to see how we do with it instead of allowing only a select few to play it. 

My 2.....cheers

 

[Toppien]

hace 12 minutos, EmberStar dijo:

Oh, look.  A PVP fan has tried to imply that I'm a coward because I don't want to PVP.  How shocking.  Not.

hey i didnt said anything, you are the one calling yourself a coward XD

im just saying that what is the big deal with a human being doing the exact same thing the AI is currently doing?

maybe theres people out there that think that cuz a person is trying to kill them in a game they get PTSD for the bully in their school taking their lunch as kids?

idk i just fail to see why  some people are in total refusal of the idea without any valid arguments, and maybe not you but many of the people in this thread look like they are scared of player stalker XD, its not like the game will become unplayable or anything, its not like the game will become a battle royale or a moba XD

 

learn to live by the fact pvp is a thing that exist everywhere, even arguing in the forums is some kind of pvp XD

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Toppien said:

learn to live by the fact pvp is a thing that exist everywhere, even arguing in the forums is some kind of pvp XD

[Fireclaymore]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Hopefully that will help clarify somewhat, where I am coming from.

Of course you post as my phone finally finishes sending my reply. I'm at work so give me a few minutes to read & reply to your new post!

I think I have some things in mind that you may disagree with.

I want players to be afraid of Stalker, no matter what level they are. I personally don't mind having new players meet Stalker when they're early into the game and struggle fighting him. This gives them more reason to play with squadmates and yet another obstacle to eventually overtake. It's something to say "I got this" when they're ready to take him down.

Now, as for addressing a "new player" issue, it does make sense to me to have it limited to certain levels of progression, and I see where you're coming from there. Maybe it's tied to people MR15+, and if we really need to, add the caveat of Arbitration accessible, so clearing the starchart.

For all players I would prefer it to be fairly inconsequential, but cool to engage in. I think there are plenty of ways to make it balanced and quick skirmish. Make the rare drops so rare that players feel as indifferent to it as went they get their 5th Broken War drop. Any drop is good for a newer player, and evergreen type drops make it decent for long-time players. All that players should feel they missed on is maybe another Dread. All that should be a consequence of a Squad's failure to down the Stalker should be someone getting downed.

I think there are ways to your grievances into account, but I am just a random nobody on the internet.

I'm taking things into mind as a 4-year player with probably more of an interest in testing and theorizing ideas on implementation while possibly not taking into account the PR backlash.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Fireclaymore

[----Legacy----]

Easy ways to encourage the community to opt in would be by adding leaderboards for both, the most successful player stalkers and the players who have repelled more player stalkers and let these leaderboards reset every single week. Give some useless cosmetic rewards to the top x, y and z% of the players (such as stalker helmet for the top 5% of stalkers, shadow stalker body as an excal skin to the top 10%, stalker themed armor for the top 20%, etc. + a badge similar to the skull badges but different depending of in what leaderboard the player got his place) plus something useful such as a forma cache and/or rivens for it.

Another option could be just make players who opt-out of the system be unable to face any kind of random encounter  (zanuka, G3, stalker) since their main flag of war is the hate towards their game being randomly disrupted even tough player stalker could end up being an even bigger joke than the AI one depending of the player using him.

I don't see anything wrong with an opt-in system as long as there's also some encouragement (or straight up bait) to make players opt-in under their own will.

[EmberStar]

6 hours ago, Toppien said:

hey i didnt said anything, you are the one calling yourself a coward XD

im just saying that what is the big deal with a human being doing the exact same thing the AI is currently doing?

maybe theres people out there that think that cuz a person is trying to kill them in a game they get PTSD for the bully in their school taking their lunch as kids?

idk i just fail to see why  some people are in total refusal of the idea without any valid arguments, and maybe not you but many of the people in this thread look like they are scared of player stalker XD, its not like the game will become unplayable or anything, its not like the game will become a battle royale or a moba XD

 

learn to live by the fact pvp is a thing that exist everywhere, even arguing in the forums is some kind of pvp XD

I don't know why some PVP "fans" are apparently incapable of understanding "I don't want to PVP."  It's like they literally can't comprehend that other people might NOT like it.

I do find it illuminating how often such a posts resorts to hinting that someone who doesn't like PVP is a coward or suffers from some kind of mental defect though.  (You really couldn't think of anything more original than PTSD?  Really?))  As a group, they also love to throw down "triggered" and "wah!" as counterpoints an awful lot.

[DatDarkOne]

5 hours ago, EmberStar said:

I don't know why some PVP "fans" are apparently incapable of understanding "I don't want to PVP."  It's like they literally can't comprehend that other people might NOT like it.

I think it might be the result of a generation of gamers that has only experienced gaming in the recent years of online gaming.  All they know is WoW, CoD, etc.  I could be wrong, but this is my guess. 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

29 minutes ago, Fireclaymore said:

I think I have some things in mind that you may disagree with.

I want players to be afraid of Stalker, no matter what level they are. I personally don't mind having new players meet Stalker when they're early into the game and struggle fighting him. This gives them more reason to play with squadmates and yet another obstacle to eventually overtake. It's something to say "I got this" when they're ready to take him down.

Now, as for addressing a "new player" issue, it does make sense to me to have it limited to certain levels of progression, and I see where you're coming from there. Maybe it's tied to people MR15+, and if we really need to, add the caveat of Arbitration accessible, so clearing the starchart.

For all players I would prefer it to be fairly inconsequential, but cool to engage in. I think there are plenty of ways to make it balanced and quick skirmish. Make the rare drops so rare that players feel as indifferent to it as went they get their 5th Broken War drop. Any drop is good for a newer player, and evergreen type drops make it decent for long-time players. All that players should feel they missed on is maybe another Dread. All that should be a consequence of a Squad's failure to down the Stalker should be someone getting downed.

I think there are ways to your grievances into account, but I am just a random nobody on the internet.

I'm taking things into mind as a 4-year player with probably more of an interest in testing and theorizing ideas on implementation while possibly not taking into account the PR backlash.

I do have time for this while at work. (I plan to address your big post when I have more time.)
I do not disagree actually. I liked when Stalker use to make me go: "Oh S#&$!" or "Seriously?! Now of all times?"

I'm honestly more interested in protecting New Players as Warframe (I'm not trying to derail but I have to mention it) is very daunting, overwhelming, & difficult to get into in the early game.
Due to both a lack of well made tutorials, not enough storyline to guide new players guidance in the early stages.
Stalker can for a New Player be just brutally punishing, confusing, & a big turn off.

Stalker as whole is really more of a New Player mechanic. So if Player Stalker becomes a thing then DE needs to change him period.
No longer should he be tied to Boss kills. Why?
Well who farms & kills bosses the most?

It's the New Players who are farming bosses. So they will meet Stalker two if not three times more often than any of us (veterans) will.
Also due to the new MR requirements, he is honestly a near impossible fight for them. As it's harder (than I expected) to get the MR needed to get guns that make Stalker feel somewhat combatable/doable. A Boar just doesn't hold up to a Hek vs Stalker for example.

So for some players (those who don't treat the "lives" they have as expendable) that is a hurdle that can kill the game.
(I myself have 6 lives in game but I always play as if I only have 1. Just my playstyle.)
As their thoughts become: "So when I kill bosses this guy shows up & kills me guaranteed."
Which then becomes: "Am I suppose to buy the frames instead of farming them so I don't die?"
Which will eventually turn into: "I don't like this game." or "So it's P2W?"

And this is only addressing AI Stalker. Put a player behind him...and well imagine how New Players would feel?
It wouldn't be "Fear" it'd be sheer frustration & anger.
And lets be honest, if DE plans to put Lore into it, & etc. It means it'll be deeper in the game & thus Stalker will have a veteran player at the helm & it's a nightmare.
I can only imagine what a new player would think if "I" were to be controlling Stalker. Let alone an entire squad of new players.

So yeah, player Stalker needs to be something that can only attack players who are at least intermediate in the game. But that's what? MR 10? Post Second Dream?

Edited December 8, 2018 by (PS4)Zero_029

[Toppien]

if you dont want to pvp, dont pvp, but why whining about it like youre going to be forced to pvp?

(lets follow a little your own game)

and what about the people who like pvp? we have no right to have our own fun in warframe? oh right the PvE purists dont want none of that, face it, this is an online game, some pvp is an inevitable consequence

and you still dont answer me why is that bad that a player takes the place of the stalker to do the exact same thing the actual stalker already does?

[EmberStar]

Because it is a player.  That I do not want to fight.  The AI stalker is just impersonal scripts.  He can't decide to be a jerkhole, he won't deliberately try to destroy the mission objective or fail a Spy mission.  (The script *might* do that, but if it happens it's an accident.)  It's the difference between dealing with a burst pipe (an impersonal act of nature) and someone deliberately undoing the joint with a wrench.  One is a completely random event.  The other is a deliberate choice by someone else.

According to DE Scott in the conversation in Tactical Potato's video, he doesn't see how this mode can exist players are given the choice to participate.  So for you to "have your own fun," you are *ruining* mine.  If the Stalker Mode is completely opt-in, and Player Stalker can NEVER attack a team with even one player who has opted out?  Then sure, whatever.  Go nuts.  The moment you try to force ME to become YOUR entertainment is where this becomes unacceptable.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Toppien said:

if you dont want to pvp, dont pvp, but why whining about it like youre going to be forced to pvp?

(lets follow a little your own game)

and what about the people who like pvp? we have no right to have our own fun in warframe? oh right the PvE purists dont want none of that, face it, this is an online game, some pvp is an inevitable consequence

and you still dont answer me why is that bad that a player takes the place of the stalker to do the exact same thing the actual stalker already does?

and keep calling me names, and point out patterns, thats a nice argument right there

The people who like PVP already have conclave and such. You have the choice of finding other conclave players. PVP is hardly an inevitable consequence - this is only if the Devs choose to put it in as an option. Warframe does have this option. It is called ... surprise surprise, Conclave. Conclave that was put it it specially for you people.

The actual stalker and a player behind stalker is a very different experience as a whole, because actual stalker doesn't whine like a baby if he gets destroyed in combat or asks for nerfs. Also, the actual stalker isn't hard coded to grief the game, which a player stalker can. Who says the stalker must kill a player to mess up the mission? Also, if the host uses lag switching to mess with a player stalker, we get whiny babies again.

Yes, player stalkers can act differently from an AI stalker and perform behaviours outside of the AI stalker towards objectives and such. Players have creativity and intelligence a script lacks. This is why the PVE purists do not want a player stalker - PVE is PVE. PVP is PVP. They balance separate from each other and have their own rules. They should never be allowed to mix.

So if you are going to keep repeating the same arguments all the other pro stalker mode players are using ad nauseum, there is no need for the other side to always come up with a new argument. The same words disguised only require the same counter.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Guest

[SilentMobius]

2 hours ago, Fireclaymore said:

I think the point that continually makes me wonder why people have issue with this the most is: all that happens is Stalker's target gets downed and then he leaves just like he would normally. That is the MAIN reason why I see no issue in this, so please address that first. The rest is supposed to be a constructive and nuanced reasoning of why I think it can be a fairly harmless addition to the game.

It's pretty simple, you are coming from the position that "PvP is ok if done 'right'" therefor...

That is not a universal position.

Please just accept that there are players for whom that is not true, where even the threat of random PvP is enough to destroy their enjoyment of the game. People who have been enjoying this game for, years, people who were founders. Who would not have founded the game if this were a forced part of it.

The details of the "game mode" are irrelevant the outcomes are irrelevant, there is no compromise save not forcing PvP on players that don't want to engage in it.

Which (we now know) is what's going to happen, this mode will be opt-in.

[SilentMobius]

22 minutes ago, Toppien said:

if you dont want to pvp, dont pvp, but why whining about it like youre going to be forced to pvp?

Because prior to certain recent non-public statements the only DE official statement was DE Scott stating that it would be forced on anyone playing the game normally.

[Fireclaymore]

5 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

Because it is a player.  That I do not want to fight.  The AI stalker is just impersonal scripts.  He can't decide to be a jerkhole, he won't deliberately try to destroy the mission objective or fail a Spy mission.  (The script *might* do that, but if it happens it's an accident.)  It's the difference between dealing with a burst pipe (an impersonal act of nature) and someone deliberately undoing the joint with a wrench.  One is a completely random event.  The other is a deliberate choice by someone else.

According to DE Scott in the conversation in Tactical Potato's video, he doesn't see how this mode can exist players are given the choice to participate.  So for you to "have your own fun," you are *ruining* mine.  If the Stalker Mode is completely opt-in, and Player Stalker can NEVER attack a team with even one player who has opted out?  Then sure, whatever.  Go nuts.  The moment you try to force ME to become YOUR entertainment is where this becomes unacceptable.

You know, I know that he does invade into spy missions, but I can't remember how that goes anymore since it's not happened in a long time. I think it's mostly because I don't engage in spy missions anymore outside of sorties. Anyway, I still feel like it's a good add into the game, and given an opt-in system where players are given incentives to do so is a fair middle ground imo. I already put way too much detail in my previous post and still think it's a decent implementation of the idea given the back n'forth I had with Zero.

If you're fine with the opt-out option and people are given more loot options or incentives for opting in, then I see no issues if encounters are quick yet still extremely rare. All you'd be missing out on is just more Dread drops anyway xD. I still think that Stalkers need to expect a loss going in and have the cards stacked against them though.

But yeah opt-out is fine as long as you're not really missing out on something that really effects your personal gameplay