Time to BALANCE Warframe! (May Trigger Players)

[peterc3]

Just now, ShinTechG said:

Do a bit of research it for yourself. Not trying to get deep into another game's discussion on here. A lot of YouTube videos and answers from the developers are up on long-term replay-ability. 

Sorry, you said that Anthem was something to look at for something you'd want in Warframe. You need to outline what it is that Anthem, or any game, does that you'd want in this game.

Have we swung back to taking EA/Bioware at their word?

[ShinTechG]

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Sorry, you said that Anthem was something to look at for something you'd want in Warframe. You need to outline what it is that Anthem, or any game, does that you'd want in this game.

But I stated in my original post what those other games had that I was comparing to Warframe.

[RedDirtTrooper]

13 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

What's the point of going back to a game that made a poor first impression? With so many great games out there just waiting to be played, the fact that Destiny 2 failed to make a good impression is no ones fault but their own. And if I'm not mistaken, getting it to "be good now" still costs about the same as a brand new game, and you know what, I'd rather get a brand new game (or more) if that's the cost of getting a shi*ty game in a decent state.

1

The same as any game I imagine, having fun. I didn't get the poor first impression because I didn't get the game until I received it in my humble bundle monthly subscription, and I bought the expansion with a big discount, so I'm not probably feeling as preyed upon as the folks who coughed up full price for everything. The only thing I'll disagree with you on is that a great deal of the QoL changes and updates apply to the core game regardless of purchasing the new expansion, and that by definition, if it's a good game now it's not just a "shi*ty game in a decent state" no matter how shi*ty if might have been at launch.

[RX-3DR]

Generally, the core problem is that Abilities are too effective, too efficient and too easy. Weapons and enemy scaling can come later when you've established a more sensible baseline as compared to the current, "Boss takes 3 minutes with X and 5 seconds with Y" gap between the middle and the meta.

My take on the solution is quite simple. 

• Disallow people from stacking Ability mods of the same type. No Blind Rage + Intensify + Auger Secret.
• Adjust Ability costs, low cost skills down to 10, easy panic buttons up to 120 ~ 150 and those in between accordingly.

If you cut down on this massive gap, you will at least cut down the gap between Chroma's Vex Armor and every other frame, allowing for better fine tuning. The game already disallows you from having more than 1 Bullet Jump mod so it's not like that's impossible to implement.

This is a problem I've observed from Phantasy Star Online 2 where you had a skill that marks a target and damage dealt to it is multiplied by 2.5x. There was a massive disparity in combat times when you had someone marking things and without, boss fights going from 10 minutes to less than 5. They eventually cut down the multiplier to 1.2x and you no longer feel that pressure when there is no one with that ability in the group since it no longer feel like you were being penalized.

[Gabbynaru]

1 minute ago, RedDirtTrooper said:

The same as any game I imagine, having fun. I didn't get the poor first impression because I didn't get the game until I received it in my humble bundle monthly subscription, and I bought the expansion with a big discount, so I'm not probably feeling as preyed upon as the folks who coughed up full price for everything. The only thing I'll disagree with you on is that a great deal of the QoL changes and updates apply to the core game regardless of purchasing the new expansion, and that by definition, if it's a good game now it's not just a "shi*ty game in a decent state" no matter how shi*ty if might have been at launch.

I dunno what to say to that one. I also got it through the Humble Monthly (and if they'd have just told me American Truck Simulator was part of the offerings for that month, I would have been far less reluctant to pay for that months sub), but I found the game so boring and tedious, I didn't even finish the campaign before dropping it. I don't see a reason to pay for the expansions that make it good if the base game bored me senseless. I've not gone back since, I dunno what QoL improvements they have made, but I doubt that alone will make me reconsider the fact that Destiny 2 is just a boring game to me.

[RedDirtTrooper]

2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

I dunno what to say to that one. I also got it through the Humble Monthly (and if they'd have just told me American Truck Simulator was part of the offerings for that month, I would have been far less reluctant to pay for that months sub), but I found the game so boring and tedious, I didn't even finish the campaign before dropping it. I don't see a reason to pay for the expansions that make it good if the base game bored me senseless. I've not gone back since, I dunno what QoL improvements they have made, but I doubt that alone will make me reconsider the fact that Destiny 2 is just a boring game to me.

Fair enough. 🙂 Not all games are for all people, your opinion of Destiny 2, for example, is almost exactly my opinion of American Truck Simulator. In fact, my whole point in this thread, to begin with, was that folks asking for Warframe to be more like Destiny 2 or Anthem are asking for it to be turned into an entirely different kind of game than what it is, and that's going to upset a lot of the folks who LIKE what it is now.

[Mr.Fluffins]

You are talking about a problem than only affects a fraction of the player base, that has the right corrupted mods, formaed and potatoed weapons and frames, and min-maxed builds... The game was never meant to be balanced around that in the first place, which is a GOOD thing. 99% of players shouldn't experience an inferior and more tedious gameplay just because it's too easy for the 0,01%. You can say "well after a couple hundreds of hours the game is easy", well, it should be easy at this point.

Like others mentioned before, I don't come to video games like Warframe to be challenged. I get enough challenges in real life, video games are for me to chill, especially after I have spent quite a bit of time getting all the good stuff to rightfully feel powerful. If I do feel like being challenged, I generally play a different game, not a horde shooter.

I understand that after you spend so much time in the game, you want it to cater to you personally and a fraction of players who are at this stage, but that is incredibly selfish. If you want to make it hard for yourself, you always can. Developers have already established the difficulty celling, with an option to scale it indefinitely for those who want it.

On the topic of Chroma in particular - like many other warframes, he is good in some cases, worse in others. Profit taker and eidolon fights aren't the only content to do in this game - there are also arbitrations, sorties, ESO, Kuva etc, where Chroma isn't all that amazing.

I also disagree with the "worthless" rewards part - while that may be true for profit taker (which is a new content, probably will be adjusted), eidolon fights are rewarding enough, as well as other endgame missions.

[ShinTechG]

21 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Sorry but there's no actual solution? Especially not detailed? What's the point then.. nice wall though..

Try taking time to read the suggested solution. Still missed it? Try reading again.

Edited January 13, 2019 by ShinTechG
Grammatical error

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

Why would Warframe want to be like the worst version of CSI?

^{(Criminal Minds better than all CSI)}

Come at me bro 😂

[Lakais]

In my opinion, the greatest mistake DE made with this game is having leveling enemies. Second to that is the insane power leap caused by bloated values in mods. 

By having fixed enemy stats, they would have clear baselines around which to design their powers, weapons and mods. With the difficulty being provided not by a magical stat increase to enemy damage and health, but by variations and population numbers. Where an Elite Lancer really, truly is a more formidable enemy then a base lancer. And a heavy gunner even more so. 

[MasterBurik]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)TONI__RIBEIRO said:

Come at me bro 😂

 

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel OP, but Warframe can't sustain itself solely on that premise.

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

12 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

 

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel OP, but Warframe can't sustain itself solely on that premise.

this is how you snap your fingers in warframe 

i totally agree with you by the way. 

Edited January 13, 2019 by (PS4)TONI__RIBEIRO

[Loza03]

42 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

 

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting to feel OP, but Warframe can't sustain itself solely on that premise.

Indeed.

I mean, even Dynasty Warriors throws challenges at you sometimes.

DYNASTY WARRIORS.

Often in the form of having your godly OPness be needed in more places than it can be. You can't kill something if you're not there. And whilst most enemies are unable to stand against you, there is the occasional captain. EDIT: Oh, yeah. And a little someone called 'Lu Bu'.

50 minutes ago, Lakais said:

In my opinion, the greatest mistake DE made with this game is having leveling enemies. Second to that is the insane power leap caused by bloated values in mods. 

By having fixed enemy stats, they would have clear baselines around which to design their powers, weapons and mods. With the difficulty being provided not by a magical stat increase to enemy damage and health, but by variations and population numbers. Where an Elite Lancer really, truly is a more formidable enemy then a base lancer. And a heavy gunner even more so. 

I can't lie, I agree with you as well.

I mean, hell, the power leap in mod power is BECAUSE of them. The devs are in an impossible place to balance around.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Loza03
Someone you should not pursue

[Soulden]

4 hours ago, ShinTechG said:

I strongly believe this is why we get a lot of rewards that are worthless to a lot of players, especially veteran players. The developers themselves know how easy it is for players to cheese content so they hold back on putting really good rewards. The amount of cheesing that can be done within just 12-24 hours of content releasing should not be a thing! 

The real question I have is. Was this their intend from start?

I mean, it is not like they are broken mechanics, they are in place to allow anyone to achieve what it looks to us like an unbalanced system.

I always watch back and listen to devstreams and not too often they seem concern, although they show awareness.

[TinFoilMkIV]

To those saying we should only buff and never nerf, that's an objectively bad way to attempt to balance a game. For one, you can essentially nerf things by just buffing everything else, which just makes things more convoluted and may in fact be more work. ex: 50% of the weapons and all the enemies get a 1,000x stat increase. The other 50% of the weapons in the game just got effectively nerfed into oblivion even though their stats weren't touched. However, the far more important part is that certain effects cannot be overcome by other numbers. How much damage does a stunned enemy need to do to be a threat to a player? How much health can survive an instant kill effect?

If all we do is increase numbers and make enemies resistant to effects that completely negate their threats, then we just a system where everything you see on paper is wrong and unnecessarily hard to interpret. If every enemy has 99% damage reduction and 75% status resistance, then your 1 billion DPS gun with guaranteed statuses doesn't actually do either of those things. Simpler is often better when you want people to actually be able to understand what's happening in a game. Sometimes that means you need to nerf things to keep them in line.

For example. I imagine most people can easily enough tell the difference between a gun that does 9 damage per shot and one that does 10. But what about a gun that does 137827498432.54 and one that does 1171533736676.63? Big numbers can be fun to look at when they fly out of an enemy and the enemy completely disintegrates, but they don't actually make the game better, and can in fact make it harder to understand.

Also if we only buff/powercreep things to the new gold standard, it is possible to reach a breaking point where things start to fall apart and aren't fun anymore. It might be amusing to cause any enemy that looks at you to explode, and have a gun that literally nukes the entire mission leaving nothing but rooms full of loot, but that will only entertain for so long, and ultimately will invalidate almost any other way to play. Not to mention the enemies required to pose any kind of threat to an uber godly player would have to be equally ungodly, unfair, and unfun to play against.

Ultimately the problem is, in it's current state it's almost impossible to make challenging content that's any fun when taken on with the highest end gear and setups. This isn't a problem for everyone, or even most players I imagine. While I'm in favor of reigning in some of the more ridiculous things we players can pull off, I don't actually expect it to happen any time soon, if ever. For those of you who don't have an issue with the current state of things, then carry on and please enjoy. I still find plenty ways to have fun myself but I can still dream.

Edited January 13, 2019 by TinFoilMkIV

[Karaphael]

No change and balancing and you know why? Because more than 50% of player base and this game needs player base plays the game exactly because we are op. I also play it because it is pve and i feel powerfull and i Want to feel that way. the moment you take it away there is no reason for me to play. And i am not alone.

[MasterBurik]

7 minutes ago, rafiki4000 said:

No change and balancing and you know why? Because more than 50% of player base and this game needs player base plays the game exactly because we are op. I also play it because it is pve and i feel powerfull and i Want to feel that way. the moment you take it away there is no reason for me to play. And i am not alone.

Where are you going to lose that ability to feel OP if, say, DE reformatted things to have enemy level 100 be the start of challenging content? Enemy levels 1-99 would still have you feeling differing levels of OP to match how you wish to feel.

Edited January 13, 2019 by MasterBurik

[Merrowen]

What @ShintechG and most others are discussing here is, in fact, personal taste. The thought process goes usually like this: 1. I like the game in general. 2. I wish there were changes in the game to make it more to my liking. 3. Here's what I think should be done to achieve it.

One's personal taste is, in vast majority of cases, reference point one uses to measure other things against. That's natural.

The problem here is that people's tastes vary. Sharing your opinion on difficulty level of warframe is good. Maybe devs will use some ideas here. The real question is how beneficial these changes would be to the game, in terms of numbers of people playing it.

It seems that original poster prefers games that offer different challenge curve than warframe does. That's perfectly fine. Myself, I like warframe just as it is now. That's also perfectly fine. Solution? Don't try to homogenize gaming spectrum so every game offers the same things. Cupcakes and beet soup shouldn't be mixed. If you are tired of warframe, take a break. Play destiny, or anthem. When you get bored of these, come back and be overpowered space ninja.

 

[TARINunit9]

Nerf the Maiming Body Rush Overload

You know you want to

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

Many want a game mode that starts at lvl 100,  DE makes 1 ,players complaint, we want exclusive rewards on it or else why play it? , DE realizes that players that can't handle those lvls are denied those rewards and because of that half the player base isn't happy. 

It's a lose lose situation, so they don't do it, balancing the game means different things according to the lvls you can manage .

[MasterBurik]

Just now, (PS4)TONI__RIBEIRO said:

Many want a game mode that starts at lvl 100,  DE makes 1 ,players complaint, we want exclusive rewards on it or else why play it? , DE realizes that players that can't handle those lvls are denied those rewards and because of that half the player base isn't happy. 

It's a lose lose situation, so they don't do it, balancing the game means different things according to the lvls you can manage .

So long as the items can be traded, they aren't exclusive. I despise Eidolon mechanics, so have traded for arcanes I wish to obtain.

 

The main pitfall they need to avoid, is making such content the sole method of gaining reputation/materials for faction gear.

[deothor]

7 hours ago, CorpusCrewman said:

If they nerf insta-kill player equipment, there still be a insta-kill  enemies.

Perfect opportunity to introduce new mob scalling, that actually makes sense for longer missions rather this crap we have.

[Makunogo]

a damage cap could mitigate the problem with eidolons - if one considers it a problem? 

i do agree that unless there is content where we pretty much can't use mods. we will end up being overpowered for any content that shows up. 

and i dont think anyone wants a boss were anything u hit it with does the same amount of damage (in which case High fire rate weapons would be automatically meta... oh wait....plauge star)

oh man... 

this is a hard problem to solve indeed lol

are we asking for something we simply cannot get in warframe?

Edited January 14, 2019 by Makunogo

[Legion-Shields]

I think it's time for DE to make PVP the main focus of Warframe. This will make it easier to balance for both pvp and pve.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Legion-Shields

[Makunogo]

3 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

I think it's time for DE to make PVP the main focus of Warframe

how often do you conclave and how often do you get people more invested into it? 

assuming DE only did some QoL changes to PvP do you think more people would be doing it?

i think one of the biggest hurdles for warframe as a pvp game is that PvP doesn't really make sense for warframe.

which is probably why they haven't updated it.

and locking some content behind PvP would be essentially pointless as not really any content would make sense to be PvP.

railjack could possibly work for this. and there is already a thread for that a few clicks down.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Makunogo