Unintended Magus Revert Behavior - Exploit?

[Pyroserenus]

Magus revert currently makes infinite dash spam possible, resulting in this being possible with use of macros or flywheels. At the very least this is a case where macros are giving an inhuman advantage (Precedent set with the fix of the k-drive exploit fix, and the hidden semi-auto fire rate cap), and at the most an exploit (uses an unintended behavior to obtain a tangible benefit)

The run in the video was done by a player using just magus revert infinite spam, and no amp. The fact that Magus Revert as written doesnt imply that it should make the revert dash replenish energy, only be free, signifies that this is probably unintended.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Pyroserenus
Added text

[[DE]Saske]

Hey Tenno! Thank you for the report, we are looking into the interaction between Magus Revert and Magus Lockdown.

The more prominent issue with this exploit is the use/abuse of a macro enabling you to void dash unrealistic amount of times which otherwise wouldn't humanly be possible are not condoned.

[Urlan]

I would concur that this does look pretty annoying as an interaction for macros but would argue that any macro usage is trying to get an advantage over normal play. Whether trying to avoid the costs of key wear and tear, thumb strain, or trying to make moves that are normally near impossible more possible, its all for a real advantage over normal play. Hopefully, such an interaction can be fixed without making these upgrades worse for normal players.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

1 hour ago, [DE]Saske said:

Hey Tenno! Thank you for the report, we are looking into the interaction between Magus Revert and Magus Lockdown.

The more prominent issue with this exploit is the use/abuse of a macro enabling you to void dash unrealistic amount of times which otherwise wouldn't humanly be possible are not condoned.

Before Magus Revert was released, I've even seen some players utilizing such a macro combined with Madurai's Blazing / Meteoric Dash and Void Dash's innate energy regen on enemy hit to help dish extra damage to Eidolon shields during Amp recharge downtime.

That didn't seem like a big issue, but I know the whole usage of Macros and for what and where is it usable or acceptable to use is a bit smoky sometimes.
What was shown in the OP's video however, I can say is a bit overkill. Just hoping that it doesn't lead to Magus Revert or Lockdown being nerfed as some players actually have to use macros in order to play effectively.

Hard to draw a line in the sand especially in cases like this.
Just be sure to take all cases into account before decision making takes place. I'd hate to see any knee-jerk changes being made to solve this leading to either or both arcanes being thrown into the trash. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Drachnyn]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Pyroserenus:

The run in the video was done by a player using just magus revert infinite spam, and no amp. The fact that Magus Revert as written doesnt imply that it should make the revert dash replenish energy, only be free, signifies that this is probably unintended.

Magus Revert doesnt replenish energy, the energy pads the player uses does.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Drachnyn

[T2k5]

12 minutes ago, Drachnyn said:

Magus Revert doesnt replenish energy, the energy pads the player uses does.

There's a bit of a misunderstanding here: The Magus Revert dash is still a normal Void Dash, and Void Dash replenishes 10 energy when you hit an enemy with it. Since the Revert-dash costs 0 energy, you end up restoring more energy than you consume every two dashes. I assumed this was exactly the intended mechanics of Revert, since there's no use for it otherwise.

[Drachnyn]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb T2k5:

There's a bit of a misunderstanding here: The Magus Revert dash is still a normal Void Dash, and Void Dash replenishes 10 energy when you hit an enemy with it. Since the Revert-dash costs 0 energy, you end up restoring more energy than you consume every two dashes. I assumed this was exactly the intended mechanics of Revert, since there's no use for it otherwise.

Oh now I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Feltal]

2 hours ago, [DE]Saske said:

Hey Tenno! Thank you for the report, we are looking into the interaction between Magus Revert and Magus Lockdown.

The more prominent issue with this exploit is the use/abuse of a macro enabling you to void dash unrealistic amount of times which otherwise wouldn't humanly be possible are not condoned.

Are scroll wheels banned now?

[Ailyene]

I feel I need to voice that I would not like to see anything like a cooldown put on Void Dash because of issues with Magus Revert.  

I legitimately do multiple void dashes within a second at times (like during today's Sortie to quickly fly around obstacles between interception points) and enjoy that freedom.  I don't want another situation like the Bullet Jump change last year where I have to now awkwardly delay my movements and actions because a cooldown type mechanic got added whether by intention or glitch.

If you don't know what I am talking about with bullet jump, last year it got modified so we need to be moving for ~125ms in a constant direction before we can bullet jump from a sprint, otherwise the crouch button will give the speed/momentum boost but not actually crouch or slide so no bullet jump, which has ruined many jumps for me since then and is very noticeable despite only being ~125ms and has been the single most infuriating bug for myself in the game.

 

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, [DE]Saske said:

Hey Tenno! Thank you for the report, we are looking into the interaction between Magus Revert and Magus Lockdown.

The more prominent issue with this exploit is the use/abuse of a macro enabling you to void dash unrealistic amount of times which otherwise wouldn't humanly be possible are not condoned.

How about hardcapping the count of dashes per second to close of peak spam-ability or even average? Healthy adults get 12-13 clicks/around 40ms between press and release, so bit better (15-20ms/hardcap of around 25 dashes per second) should be fine without making dash movement feel bad, without nerfing the cool interaction but also not being absurd/office mouse or macro only.

[kyori]

Well, the exploiter has cleverly exploit what is in the game. This should serves as a warning for DE to thoroughly think through when designing game mechanics.

[(PSN)solartorch81]

This is not a exploit. But a clever use of game mechanics like the wukong nuke. DE should just remove the unintended effect and not ban anyone.

[-BigB0ss-]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)solartorch81 said:

This is not a exploit. But a clever use of game mechanics like the wukong nuke. DE should just remove the unintended effect and not ban anyone.

6 hours ago, [DE]Saske said:

The more prominent issue with this exploit is the use/abuse of a macro enabling you to void dash unrealistic amount of times which otherwise wouldn't humanly be possible are not condoned. 

 

[T2k5]

The problem with the "not humanly possible" part is defining what you may or may not use as your input device. Hyperscroll mousewheels can pull this off physically with ease, and since I use a Wooting One (and soon Two) keyboard, I can set it so that a keypress happens at the beginning, middle, and end of a key actuation. The game allows you to bind an alternate key to any action, so mashing two keys on your keyboard should be perfectly fine. Combined with the Wooting, I can reach ~60 keypresses per second without issues, which is enough for the void dash trick to work fine. This way, every event is done entirely by human interaction and no macros are used, so it is very much "humanly possible".

[Andele3025]

27 minutes ago, -BigB0ss- said:

 

Actually its not "not humanly possible" because multikeychain/nkro keyboards, office mice and mice with unlocked/hyperscroll scrollwheel exist which get close or do the same as a 0 delay macro. However like semi auto there should be a cap as to not make it a requirement for usage (and the cap also shouldnt be punishing people that are adept at clicking/have a better than average adult response time).

Edited February 22, 2019 by Andele3025

[-BigB0ss-]

1 hour ago, Andele3025 said:

Actually its not "not humanly possible" because multikeychain/nkro keyboards, office mice and mice with unlocked/hyperscroll scrollwheel exist which get close or do the same as a 0 delay macro. However like semi auto there should be a cap as to not make it a requirement for usage (and the cap also shouldnt be punishing people that are adept at clicking/have a better than average adult response time).

Dont tell me, tell that to DE saske, im just quoting what he say (and make senses) Actually its no... mmm dunno, Exploits are a grey area, can be harmless to the game or not. U have n00blshowtek as example. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by -BigB0ss-

[Feltal]

2 hours ago, -BigB0ss- said:

Dont tell me, tell that to DE saske, im just quoting what he say (and make senses) Actually its no... mmm dunno, Exploits are a grey area, can be harmless to the game or not. U have n00blshowtek as example. 

What n00b did far exceeded this as far as how "exploity" it was.

[-BigB0ss-]

1 minute ago, Feltal said:

What n00b did far exceeded this as far as how "exploity" it was.

Doesnt matter, like say is grey area, and is not my call, for me this is harmless, but maybe for DE is not, or other player have diferent opinion. Maybe DE didnt know about this until now, OP post video because he is concern about the method.

[Chaos.Blades]

You can get the same effect of a macro just by binding jump to an infinite scrolling mouse wheel. Even a regular mouse wheel is really really close to the same speed a macro could achieve. You can also exceed human capabilities by binding jump to more than one button and spamming them at the same time. Just pointing this out for people flying off the handle about macros in Warframe. Could also probably bind it to multiple directions on a thumb stick for the same effect.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Chaos.Blades

[Lorathbane]

I hope this won't get nerfed to ground, and stays at least somewhat viable, at least as an alternative to the existing methods

[Urlan]

Would perhaps making the duplicated Void rush not refund energy through enemy hits, combat the problem while allowing the two magus enhancements to continue being used in a relatively similar fashion?

[ValariusXT]

Well the question is will I be banned if I use this method without macro of course just taking advantage of the usability of those arcanes?

[Tarak]

Ooor maybe make operator arcanes one per ability and two for statistical boosts...

Then maybe make augments the same way rather than having them be mods...

[ValariusXT]

On 2019-02-22 at 2:35 AM, [DE]Saske said:

The more prominent issue with this exploit is the use/abuse of a macro enabling you to void dash unrealistic amount of times which otherwise wouldn't humanly be possible are not condoned.

Yeah but Warframe partners like Tavier Corsair have been doing this multiple void dashes in his tricap speed runs. IMO this is just another version of that tied to the new arcanes themselves. So the issue lies in the arcanes and not the macro coz imo that macro is being used by a large chunk of the community taking advantage of Madurai's Meteoric dash the only difference is it's more effective now with Magus Lockdown. You can even omit Magus Revert and just spam energy pads and you'll still have the same effect.