Nightwave concept is shafting new and casual players

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

I enjoy nw.  It's something to work towards over an extended period which imo is good.  Too much of WF is centred around 5-10 min in and out missions so having to go longer, try harder is good I think.  Even then, most the challenges and therefore the rep can still be completed/gained by doing the quick 5 min missions. 

I didn't do the hyrdolist last week, probs won't do the hunt 10 animals this week.  I'll still easily hit rank 30 within 10 weeks.  Am I crying about not being able to or want to do those missions?  No, not stressed at all.  I'm not being forced to do stuff I don't want to.   And nothing wrong having elite rewards that not everyone can get.  That's the point of elite rewards.  It rewards the players who do get them as it makes them feel special.  And if you don't get them it gives those players something to work on for next season.  And if you're capable of getting them but choose not to participate then that's on you I'm afraid.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

^ Another one who gets it. I salute you sir. All the best for your gaming.

[-Azumarill-]

3 hours ago, Nyx219 said:

Ergo, keep both. You get your shiny thing, we keep what works. Win/win.

NW is a huge failure, it pleases just a few bored veterans, is a massive chore for everybody else, and a big block for n00bs. 1 win out of 3 parts to consider is a still an unapologetic fail.

As a relatively new player who only has 30 minutes to play every day, I've been logging on every day since January hoping to get a Plastids alert. Really need them to finish my Boltor but it seems like there's no more. Game seems so difficult now, I really wonder if DE could add them as a drop somewhere so they'd be more accessible to noobs.

Edited March 5, 2019 by -Azumarill-

[marelooke]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tatakai no Kami said:

Exactly? Exactly what?

Exactly, that I proved you a liar?

You said all veterans, and when you denied this I pointed out again you said all veterans. As I said don't speak for veterans, speak for yourself.

And to be clear you are the loud minority. Why? Because if I wasn't at work I would not be browsing these forums and would be playing the game and doing other things. Most people who are happy about something do not come on the forums to praise it. They are too busy enjoying it. That is human nature. 

And you only need to earn 60% of the challenge rewards per week. If you do the basic challenges and the dailies that is 28K per week which is 65%, On top of that with the random Escapees it's easy to earn more than enough without worrying about the elite challenges.

You mustn't have been on the forums when then Ui changed. The number of people not liking this is a very tiny fraction compared to that.

Ok, shilling, spreading confirmed misinformation and purposefully misinterpreting what I wrote. I'm done replying to you.

[Skaleek]

On 2019-03-01 at 8:54 PM, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

To be fair DE could totally add in random alerts that reward a small amount of wolf credits. This makes the new store valuable and its rotating stock would not be a bad thing but something players look forward to each week. Also, gaining tiers isn't mandatory now for new players and they can focus on story quests and the star chart. Since wolf credit expire DE doesn't have to worry about players stockpiling them either. It would be a win-win for everyone.

They shoulda just replaced alert rewards with wolf creds. Aka token system. The thing i've seen asked for over the passed 5 years in regards to almost every aspect of RNG in the game. Then allowed you to buy what you want when you want, including the new items, umbral forma, armor cosmetics, etc. That way you get what you want, when you want, and can do it whenever you're online. Or am I just too crazy?

Edited March 5, 2019 by Skaleek

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

They shoulda just replaced alert rewards with wolf creds. Aka token system. The thing i've seen asked for over the passed 5 years in regards to almost every aspect of RNG in the game. Then allowed you to buy what you want when you want, including the new items, umbral forma, armor cosmetics, etc. That way you get what you want, when you want, and can do it whenever you're online. Or am I just too crazy?

They won't do that cos it'll mean it's too easy to get things and therefore people will buy less plat.

[(PSN)mcfar53]

As a MR19 player I totally understand where NewPlayer317 is coming from. I understand everyone's point of view. We all started out as a new player. And regardless of how easy it is to you there are many other people who share his point of view. And, he is correct.

My opinion on Nightwave is that it's Awesome. I want it forever in the game. What it shouldn't be is a replacement for the Alerts.

Grinding is a good part of Warframe and I totally love it. However no matter how you slice it the "End does not justify the means" in Nightwave.

Simply put, you can't expect a new player to welcome in a challenge that he will not be able to complete for all the reasons he stated.

It's endgame material. Imagine going straight into a game like Dark Souls or Bloodborne and be expected to be able to fight the Bosses straight away. Or imagine playing those games and and be expected to play the game and beat it with a time constraint. You have X amount of time to beat the game or get to the final boss and if you don't, well, too bad for you. Better luck next year.

Now imagine you have a job, wife or girlfriend, kids and/or events you have to attend. With limited play time, a few hours in the evening or some time on the weekends. Again, the good rewards will be out of reach and as hard as you want to get there it will not be possible. 

We don't live in our Grandma's basement.

If you're a new player that did, you didn't do it on your own. You were carried by the elite. Even a team of new players could not accomplish this.

For the most part players that start out are usually carried at some point. I don't see a problem with that. Heck, I hope you do. 

Even though I can hold all 4 points in an interception, solo, I still struggle in the game. Mostly the infested maps. And because I have essential tremors I love to hit door jambs and shoot in the air. Lol, don't love it, it just happens.

Warframe is great therapy for me.

It takes a while to get used to the game mechanics and the rewards. For new players, solo players and those that are good but not super players the goodies like the potatoes will simply be out of reach.

I am a solo player for many reasons. One is I like to take my time. Speed running is just not my thing.

And before you can say Warframe is a multiplayer game only there is a solo button. There's even videos from renowned YouTubers on playing solo. And Nightwave isn't solo player friendly. That was even addressed at the beginning of a twitch video by space mom.

I absolutely love Warframe and I think Nightwave is awesome. I hope it remains as a permanent part of Warframe.

But the Alerts serve a purpose and that purpose shouldn't be replaced by an unbalanced event. Keep both.

That's what Warframe needs.

Balance

[Auranim]

I honestly think it has less to do with what new players have to do, and more about what is presented to them. When I started playing, I remember feeling very overwhelmed with the sheer amount of stuff I could do. I first played Warframe for reals right after Plains of Eidolon went live, so I was very eager to experience the new content. So I jumped on my trusty level 8 Mag and went ahead to try and tackle an Eidolon. Solo, because I didn't even know there were clans at the time.

You can imagine how that went.

So I think Nightwaves are okay. There could be more dailies, but honestly, I never thought I'd even see Umbra Forma. That was very very bonus for me. If anything, I think a cosmetic reward such as the armour set should have been placed earlier in the ladder than the actual endgame, useful stuff, but I've always heard that Warframe Endgame is Fashionframe. 😄

What I think could be done has more to do with information architecture. That means limiting the amount of exposure new players have to everything the game has to offer. There really is little reason for an MR5 player to even know about sorties. Is it technically feasible? Yes. But that player must already know what they're doing in order to tackle a sortie at that rank, so either a smurf or someone with very good friends.

The accessibility difference between Nightwave and Alerts is artificial. Nightwave presents the information in a way that makes it feel like you can achieve the ranks and rewards, while Alerts showed very clear [LOCKED] messages in nodes you couldn't still access so you'd know before starting the grind that that one wasn't for you. Yet. So when you start putting in some effort for standing only to realise you won't be able to complete the quest, the whole system feels frustrating. Especially in a game that caters so much to completionists.

Perhaps dividing the whole standing grind in brackets and then assigning a message to that bracket would sort of diminish the issue. Something as simple as "Recommended for MR10+" would clearly indicate things to a newer player, conveying more of a "you'll get there" message than an "oh you poor thing, you thought you'd make it through? Oh, honey, this isn't for you".

That and more dailies. Seriously. Twice as more dailies for half the standing would have *felt* better while not changing the system, but more rewards for smaller tasks is awesome. Vets would complete it organically while new players would have had more to work towards. And if DE ever reads this, trust me: the more people who can complete the event 100%, the better. It feels good seeing this task complete, and it makes it more exciting for the next. And it ups the stakes of MISSING OUT because you don't really want that stain in your career, do you? 😄

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

39 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

They shoulda just replaced alert rewards with wolf creds. Aka token system. The thing i've seen asked for over the passed 5 years in regards to almost every aspect of RNG in the game. Then allowed you to buy what you want when you want, including the new items, umbral forma, armor cosmetics, etc. That way you get what you want, when you want, and can do it whenever you're online. Or am I just too crazy?

No, you're not crazy. The issue is that by making rewards more accessible the cost of the rewards needs to be higher or there needs to be a limit on the rewards availability to keep them rare.

[--LA--Vengeance]

U actually dunno how whiny wf player base is until u open the forums. And then u are like 'fk this, Im out'.
What IS casual for u people? U want awards, but to put 15 mins in it weekly? Like, are u for real?

Whoever I talked with, they legit finished all in 1-2 days. U often can finish 2-3 quests in a single mission.Capture targets literally spawn in every mission. Per week 4 tiers.

If u are not willing to put 3-4h per week in the game, why are u even bothered by rewards that u don't even need considering how often u play?

Edited March 5, 2019 by Vengeance_A

[Test-995]

they can remove elite weeklies completely and just add more dailies(multiplied like four times?)

newbie friendly, timesink for vets, ez long grind as usual warframe.

[Skaleek]

1 hour ago, Zilchy said:

They won't do that cos it'll mean it's too easy to get things and therefore people will buy less plat.

How does the current system encourage buying plat?

[Test-995]

guess current system actually discourage buying plat a bit, you can get free reactor/catalyst when you want and some free forma/slot periodically

[Oreades]

Personally I think it's overall more friendly to new players than the old Alert system. 

That said the one place I feel that the overall Wolf of Saturn Six event fell flat on it's face was that the weekly challenges expire. It just puts a capricious cap on them for no good reason and stands to cause some issues that need not be issues later down the line. 

They could easily fix that (maybe not in this event but at least in future long term events) by making the Weekly challenges never expire. That way people can complete them whenever instead of a very narrow time frame (with regard to the totality of the event). There is no down side to that as it resolves issues like someone being MR locked from a Challenge that they might be able to have done by the following week. Or an instance where someone has some IRL issues crop up and can't play for a few weeks. 

Both groups still need to complete the challenge so they "put the effort in" they just wouldn't have been needlessly locked out because they couldn't "put the effort in within this exact mini timeframe within the scope of the larger event timeframe". There simply is no reason for that and all it does is engender ill will from the players who find themselves further and further behind with no way to catch up. 

People are still going to be sitting there chomping at the bit to see what next weeks challenges are when they roll over. The only thing DE might need to address would be how the game stacked identical challenges from subsequent weeks. I know do a Sortie has been a challenge that's popped up a couple times now. So they would probably need to set things up in such a way that if you met the criteria for multiple challenges it would only fill in the completion from the earliest unfinished weekly challenge.

EG if you have a week 1 challenge "Do a Sortie" and a week 3 challenge "do a Sortie" and you did a sortie during week 5, it would count that as the week 1 Sortie and only the week 1 Sortie challenge, the next sortie you did would then count for Week 3. However dissimilar challenges or even similar challenges within a given week would still stack as per normal. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Oreades

[(PSN)mcfar53]

1 hour ago, Vengeance_A said:

U actually dunno how whiny wf player base is until u open the forums. And then u are like 'fk this, Im out'.
What IS casual for u people? U want awards, but to put 15 mins in it weekly? Like, are u for real?

Whoever I talked with, they legit finished all in 1-2 days. U often can finish 2-3 quests in a single mission.Capture targets literally spawn in every mission. Per week 4 tiers.

If u are not willing to put 3-4h per week in the game, why are u even bothered by rewards that u don't even need considering how often u play?

You can't group all players into one basket. We are all different. And they aren't whiny. You are projecting. They simply are voicing their concerns. And because someone doesn't agree with another doesn't mean they should be shut down or not consider their opinion.

I'm MR19 ready for the MR20 and many times I struggle and need help. I complained about a weapon and how much it sucked. Then one day a fellow player helped me understand it. It's my go-to weapon mow.

I absolutely love Warframe and I welcome Nightwave. It's pretty cool. We should be helping players understand the change not condemning them for their opinion.

Warframe is all about that and DE would want this. 

[--LA--Vengeance]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)mcfar53 said:

You can't group all players into one basket. We are all different. And they aren't whiny. You are projecting. They simply are voicing their concerns. And because someone doesn't agree with another doesn't mean they should be shut down or not consider their opinion.

I'm MR19 ready for the MR20 and many times I struggle and need help. I complained about a weapon and how much it sucked. Then one day a fellow player helped me understand it. It's my go-to weapon mow.

I absolutely love Warframe and I welcome Nightwave. It's pretty cool. We should be helping players understand the change not condemning them for their opinion.

Warframe is all about that and DE would want this. 

My lad, dunno did u notice how many topics 'nightwave succ me no like' are around. While majority sounds I DON'T WANNA PLAY LONGER THAN 1H WEEKLY BUT I WANT ALL THE REWARDS.
Honestly, if quests are like super hard or something, I would say openly it's an issue. But they are not. A lot of them u can speed run except obv 1h survival and similar to those. Again, as someone who had enough of ppl going in endless missions, mainly relics, then leave after 5-10 mins, this change for me was more than welcome. And only on forums I see ppl whining about nightwave not being perfect. Guess what, there is no system that will be perfect and that will work for every single player.

I see nothing wrong with having struggles or wanting help, thats pretty much normal and from what I could see, players often offer their help or don't mind helping whoever even with some 'annoying' stuff. Again repeating, what is wrong with users of this forum? I normally stay away, but holy f, atm is too much.

Edit: Also thats why I asked - what is casual play for ya all? Because I consider myself pretty casual, nowhere near hardcore every day 10h of Warframe player who works 7 out of 7 days in a week. Sometimes I play more, sometimes less. But this weekly looks to me more like a daily lol.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Vengeance_A

[(PSN)mcfar53]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Personally I think it's overall more friendly to new players than the old Alert system. 

That said the one place I feel that the overall Wolf of Saturn Six event fell flat on it's face was that the weekly challenges expire. It just puts a capricious cap on them for no good reason and stands to cause some issues that need not be issues later down the line. 

They could easily fix that (maybe not in this event but at least in future long term events) by making the Weekly challenges never expire. That way people can complete them whenever instead of a very narrow time frame (with regard to the totality of the event). There is no down side to that as it resolves issues like someone being MR locked from a Challenge that they might be able to have done by the following week. Or an instance where someone has some IRL issues crop up and can't play for a few weeks. 

Both groups still need to complete the challenge so they "put the effort in" they just wouldn't have been needlessly locked out because they couldn't "put the effort in within this exact mini timeframe within the scope of the larger event timeframe". There simply is no reason for that and all it does is engender ill will from the players who find themselves further and further behind with no way to catch up. 

People are still going to be sitting there chomping at the bit to see what next weeks challenges are when they roll over. The only thing DE might need to address would be how the game stacked identical challenges from subsequent weeks. I know do a Sortie has been a challenge that's popped up a couple times now. So they would probably need to set things up in such a way that if you met the criteria for multiple challenges it would only fill in the completion from the earliest unfinished weekly challenge.

EG if you have a week 1 challenge "Do a Sortie" and a week 3 challenge "do a Sortie" and you did a sortie during week 5, it would count that as the week 1 Sortie and only the week 1 Sortie challenge, the next sortie you did would then count for Week 3. However dissimilar challenges or even similar challenges within a given week would still stack as per normal. 

Actually new players are MR gated. I do think NW is somewhat friendly though but it needs to be balanced.

[(PSN)mcfar53]

4 minutes ago, Vengeance_A said:

My lad, dunno did u notice how many topics 'nightwave succ me no like' are around. While majority sounds I DON'T WANNA PLAY LONGER THAN 1H WEEKLY BUT I WANT ALL THE REWARDS.
Honestly, if quests are like super hard or something, I would say openly it's an issue. But they are not. A lot of them u can speed run except obv 1h survival and similar to those. Again, as someone who had enough of ppl going in endless missions, mainly relics, then leave after 5-10 mins, this change for me was more than welcome. And only on forums I see ppl whining about nightwave not being perfect. Guess what, there is no system that will be perfect and that will work for every single player.

I see nothing wrong with having struggles or wanting help, thats pretty much normal and from what I could see, players often offer their help or don't mind helping whoever even with some 'annoying' stuff. Again repeating, what is wrong with users of this forum? I normally stay away, but holy f, atm is too much.

I'm not you. You are projecting. Quests can be super hard. You're obviously a way better player than me and I'm MR19. I'd love to learn and run with you. Show me your skills and teach me to do them. But how about this? The Quests were easy for you but they're very difficult for us.

I love Warframe but it can be a real challenge for me. I'll never give up on it. I can't speed run. They're not saying they are entitled. They're just upset that it has become harder. We need to help them understand.

We forget about when we first started. Thank goodness I had someone to guide me.

[Oreades]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)mcfar53 said:

Actually new players are MR gated. I do think NW is somewhat friendly though but it needs to be balanced.

Which is part of the reason I don't think that weekly challenges should expire. Because someone who can't do a Sortie this week will probably have the capacity to do sorties by the end of the event. So it is extremely capricious to say just because you couldn't do a sortie within this 7 days/168hr window you just lose out on those points over this 70 day/1,680hr event. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Oreades

[D1sTrust]

Just posting to back up the OP.
Imo Nightwave is a nice addition, but removing alerts doesn`t feel good to a new-ish player like me.

Alerts were a good way to get some of the basic stuff new players need, down to simple credit rewards.
They also worked well for bringing random groups together. No matter the time, if I went to an alert I could count on finding a group instantly, and for any player level.
A friend of mine just started playing a few days ago, I guess he has to mostly solo through the starchart now.

I am MR8, played about 100+ hours, yet the rewards from Nightwave are still relatively meaningless to me.
Plus I am asked to dedicate so much time, it puts my progress through the starchart to a halt.

I hope Nightwave-like systems stay in the game, it is a good addition and can make players try things they would otherwise ignore.
But alerts should come back, or any other system that makes quick, random groups fun for new players and gives them rewards they care for.
 

 

[(PSN)mcfar53]

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

Which is part of the reason I don't think that weekly challenges should expire. Because someone who can't do a Sortie this week will probably have the capacity to do sorties by the end of the event. So it is extremely capricious to say just because you couldn't do a sortie within this 7 days/168hr window you just lose out on those points over this 70 day/1,680hr event. 

So true. I've been saying this a lot. Balance is the key.

[(PSN)mcfar53]

31 minutes ago, D1sTrust said:

Just posting to back up the OP.
Imo Nightwave is a nice addition, but removing alerts doesn`t feel good to a new-ish player like me.

Alerts were a good way to get some of the basic stuff new players need, down to simple credit rewards.
They also worked well for bringing random groups together. No matter the time, if I went to an alert I could count on finding a group instantly, and for any player level.
A friend of mine just started playing a few days ago, I guess he has to mostly solo through the starchart now.

I am MR8, played about 100+ hours, yet the rewards from Nightwave are still relatively meaningless to me.
Plus I am asked to dedicate so much time, it puts my progress through the starchart to a halt.

I hope Nightwave-like systems stay in the game, it is a good addition and can make players try things they would otherwise ignore.
But alerts should come back, or any other system that makes quick, random groups fun for new players and gives them rewards they care for.
 

 

Indeed. I think Nightwave is really cool and a nice addition but we need the Alerts back or at least balance this for new players. I got so many other things I want to do. Oh BTW Danielle is live right now on Twitch.

[MJ12]

Okay, as a veteran player who has played fairly extensively, let me tell you the number of potatoes I have gotten in the past year from non-Gift alerts.

0. Despite playing a lot more than you'd expect a casual player to do. I suspect that if you don't aggressively monitor what alerts are showing up and then chase the really valuable ones, it's very easy to be unlucky enough to have a similar experience. 

Nightwaves are a better system than Alerts for players who have fixed time commitments on their schedule IMO, and I don't think it's unreasonable that DE's system is more job-friendly even if it's somewhat less friendly to people who have higher time commitments but a much more flexible schedule. There are a lot of people who play Warframe who have 9-5 jobs, or families to take care of, or need to go to the doctor regularly for various reasons, or other things that mean that they can't just drop everything and hit up a Catalyst alert whenever it shows up. 

 

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, (PS4)mcfar53 said:

Indeed. I think Nightwave is really cool and a nice addition but we need the Alerts back or at least balance this for new players. I got so many other things I want to do. Oh BTW Danielle is live right now on Twitch.

Honestly as a new player, despite what many are saying, I actually liked the idea of following WF outside of the game. 

Personally, I didn't stress the missing an alert when I couldn't play nearly as much compared to the excitement of catching a good one.

It gave me that lucky freebie feel that helped keep me hooked on the game early on. 

I only saw them as extras, not events that I NEEDED to catch. 

[--LA--Vengeance]

2 hours ago, (PS4)mcfar53 said:

I'd love to learn and run with you.

I'm on PC tho.
 

3 hours ago, (PS4)mcfar53 said:

they're very difficult for us.

I would like u to point out on specific quests u find hard because as I said, they don't seem hard to me at all.
Sortie = can get carried easily there regardless of MR/exp as long as there is at least 1 player who knows what to do.
Syndicate runs = capture/exterminate can't be that hard and they are short (for ppl who don't have much time).
Kuva = eh go Limbo, sit in rift and press 2?
X type of damage = just switch to the frame or weapon with that damage type (like i did cold and blast with Redeemer p)
3 waves in ESO = same as sortie. Also Saryn press 4 can't be some 300IQ play
Perfect capture for floofs = sit invisible as Loki, pick animal that is bigger target (so, not owl or pobbers)
Assassination = u probably did already multiple of those, pick some fast ones like The Sergent
Invasion = same as assassination, just pick fast ones

Idk did I missed something from this and past week, the only one I could say 'screw this' was for Ayatan (and that u could do in Arb. missions in case u didn't have any or didn't want to waste plat on it)