New Garuda augment mod is meh at best.

[Ramflax]

The 5 secs of being unkillable sounds nice for capitalizing on her instant kills, but I dont think that is enough to warrant a mod slot being used. Because quick thinking basically does the same but better with less work.

Its a true unkillable status not invulnerable, the augments prevents you from going less than 2 health while active. If you have quick thinking you lose no energy during this time. The augment seems like a safety net for bad play instead of rewarding good play, a good example is the new nidus one, which rewards you for proper use of your abilities. While the 5 secs of unkillable sounds like a reward in most instances that you use dread mirror, this will have no effect since its not invulnerability.

Now you could activate this then create some blood alters to start to heal yourself but since you are still able to take damage during this time if you're under enough fire that your blood alters are not good enough to sustain you than all the augment did was delay your death 5 secs.

Since the effect of the augment only comes into play when you are about to die, its application is limited. It either saves you from death, gives you a buffer before you get energy drain through quick thinking or stops energy drain during quick thinking.  It could be used in the place of something like flow, while still using quick thinking. It gives about the same-ish survival time in high level of play but requires you to take an active action instead of just a passive occurrence.

Overall I like the idea but I feel it would do better as part of the actual ability instead of as an augment.

(Also could function as a psudo-quick thinking if you dont have the mod yet, in which case it is a lot better but still not great.)

 

[-QUILL_PETER-]

13 minutes ago, Ramflax said:

Since the effect of the augment only comes into play when you are about to die

Um...no? And I have zero idea how you convinced yourself of this...
Garuda's 1 instant kills any enemy at 40% or less health, so it's pretty easy to keep the invulnerability period up, especially since it scales with Duration mods.
 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by -QUILL_PETER-

[Elyi]

5 hours ago, -QUILL_PETER- said:

Um...no? And I have zero idea how you convinced yourself of this...
Garuda's 1 instant kills any enemy at 40% or less health, so it's pretty easy to keep the invulnerability period up, especially since it scales with Duration mods.

Alright after trying out the new augment i agree with OP, it's a worse quick thinking you need to have 300% duration for it to last a mere 15 seconds, might as well use quick thinking in that case it's not worth disregarding everything else just for the sake of this augment in any build at all. If DE can tweak its duration to last maybe 20 seconds at base it would put it on par with quick thinking but i'd probably still use quick thinking honestly.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Ely.I

[Asdryu]

I mean, it scales with duration mods at least... Won't beat the uselessness of Soundquake's augment and Wukong ones

[Xaxma]

... Did people like ... forget what Garuda's passive does?

It's not meant to be a replacement for Natural Talent, it's high risk, high reward.

Build high duration, dude.

[AndouRaiton]

With max duration the time of being unkillable is 15.3s. I haven't gotten the augment myself yet, but if you can refresh it by killing something with dread mirror, you can, theoretically, NEVER die, REGARDLESS of enemy level (and thus the damage they produce) so long as you can get them to at least 40% HP to insta-kill them.

Also, as mentioned by Xaxma, taking damage during this also allows use for her passive to be active all the time at 99%.

[Karonuva]

Quick thinking is overrated. It requires you to actually be taking damage to "save" you, if you don't die from the permastagger. This mod gives you proactive invulnerability so you don't have to be taking damage to benefit from the mod. If you play Garuda properly you'll be getting kills with her 1 often enough to keep this up for most if not all of the time.

[AKTKWNG]

Does getting another dread mirror kill during the undying period extend or refresh the duration at all? I think that will be a very big make-or-break factor for me. If it does, then I can see this mod potentially being an alternative build path to quick thinking. Most Garuda builds are pretty flexible after hitting 200% strength, so I can see a high-duration build potentially being viable. It will also allow her to fully utilise her passive, which iirc works like rhino roar so is actually pretty significant

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, AndouRaiton said:

With max duration the time of being unkillable is 15.3s. I haven't gotten the augment myself yet, but if you can refresh it by killing something with dread mirror, you can, theoretically, NEVER die, REGARDLESS of enemy level (and thus the damage they produce) so long as you can get them to at least 40% HP to insta-kill them.

15.3 Seconds would most likely make me use more Duration in Garuda with her Augment. I haven't got it yet but i can see that being nice for my Playstyle.

[Ramflax]

13 hours ago, Xaxma said:

... Did people like ... forget what Garuda's passive does?

It's not meant to be a replacement for Natural Talent, it's high risk, high reward.

Build high duration, dude.

Though not directly stated its one of my points in it being an active action vs a passive. With quick thinking you can just stay at 2 health to always keep the passive up while safely having the buffer health that is your energy. A high duration build would allow you to keep the unkillable for 15 secs sure but its quite a short time and if u want to stay unkillable you will be spending most of your unkillable state setting up the next target for dread mirror.

Since you have factors like teammates killing the target, you being to strong and just out right killing the target and finding a suitable target to put to 40%. Its just not great how much you need to work to keep the state up, to stay at 2 health while u can do it much safer and with less thought with quick thinking.

13 hours ago, CephKaron said:

Quick thinking is overrated. It requires you to actually be taking damage to "save" you, if you don't die from the permastagger. This mod gives you proactive invulnerability so you don't have to be taking damage to benefit from the mod. If you play Garuda properly you'll be getting kills with her 1 often enough to keep this up for most if not all of the time.

The mod does require you to be taking damage to see its effect, it is a proactive mod but its not invulnerability its just being unkillable its quite different, if it was invulnerability this thread would of been different. This mod prevents you from going less than 2 health. Even with high duration half to most of your unkillable state would be finding a new target to jump on if you want to stay floating at 2 health for max usage of her passive. While quick thinking is a safe alternative since she can easily get energy and health.

14 hours ago, Ely.I said:

Alright after trying out the new augment i agree with OP, it's a worse quick thinking you need to have 300% duration for it to last a mere 15 seconds, might as well use quick thinking in that case it's not worth disregarding everything else just for the sake of this augment in any build at all. If DE can tweak its duration to last maybe 20 seconds at base it would put it on par with quick thinking but i'd probably still use quick thinking honestly.

Yea, as long as its just being unkillable it either would need a higher base duration to make good use of it or it needs to be retooled.

[Prof_Blocks_007]

The augment is pretty good in theory, but it wants duration, which is Garuda's lowest priority stat.

Strength and range are much more useful for Garuda, giving her stronger damage output and healing, that covers a larger area. The base duration of her abilities is long enough that losing some duration in favor of strength is worthwhile.

If the energy gain from Bloodletting scaled with strength (in addition to efficiency), there might be room to play around with more duration using Blind Rage and Overextended with Narrow Minded, instead of Transient Fortitude, Stretch and Primed Continuity.

Alternatively, the Augment could be changed to an HP value instead of a timer, like a Quick Thinking form of Iron Skin. This would probably work quite well as a percentage of max enemy HP absorb (likely up to a cap), which then decays by a percentage of the current value (e.g. 30%) each second (unaffected by mods). So if you ripped a level 100 Gunner for 50k, it'd give you a 50k hp Quick Thinking buff effect, which would then decay by 30% each second (50,000 -> 35,000 -> 24,500 -> 17,150 -> 12,005 -> 8,403.5, and so on). The damage capture multiplier is affected by strength, so this would be too.

As it stands currently, building for enough duration for the augment to see proper use, just results in a weaker build for the rest of her kit.

I'm gonna play around with it some more, but I'm unsure if I'll keep it fitted.

For reference, here are my regular and Dread Ward builds:

Spoiler

 

 

[Xaxma]

4 hours ago, Ramflax said:

Though not directly stated its one of my points in it being an active action vs a passive. With quick thinking you can just stay at 2 health to always keep the passive up while safely having the buffer health that is your energy. A high duration build would allow you to keep the unkillable for 15 secs sure but its quite a short time and if u want to stay unkillable you will be spending most of your unkillable state setting up the next target for dread mirror.

Since you have factors like teammates killing the target, you being to strong and just out right killing the target and finding a suitable target to put to 40%. Its just not great how much you need to work to keep the state up, to stay at 2 health while u can do it much safer and with less thought with quick thinking.

The mod does require you to be taking damage to see its effect, it is a proactive mod but its not invulnerability its just being unkillable its quite different, if it was invulnerability this thread would of been different. This mod prevents you from going less than 2 health. Even with high duration half to most of your unkillable state would be finding a new target to jump on if you want to stay floating at 2 health for max usage of her passive. While quick thinking is a safe alternative since she can easily get energy and health.

Yea, as long as its just being unkillable it either would need a higher base duration to make good use of it or it needs to be retooled.

The problem with quick thinking is that you stagger a lot. 

You don't stagger upon taking additional damage with this. 

You don't waste energy on an inefficient, obsolete defense feature. 

This is the better choice. 

/thread

Edited April 11, 2019 by Xaxma

[Elyi]

11 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

The problem with quick thinking is that you stagger a lot. 

You don't stagger upon taking additional damage with this. 

You don't waste energy on an inefficient, obsolete defense feature. 

This is the better choice. 

/thread

I used to have stagger problems but learned that as long as you play properly and move a lot the stagger doesn't really has any effect, even less so when your shield is up. The stagger from quick thinking in this case is a minor inconvenience that is not worth sacrificing range and/or strength on garuda just for the sake of a worst version. Quick thinking is far from obsolete and you stating your opinion that can be easily disregarded by improving your game doesn't really make it a fact. 

For the record I dislike the stagger too, that's why I improved my game to avoid it, someone pointed out to me that it's there to balance an otherwise broken mod, but I still think it should be removed, that's however my personal opinion and preference.

[Xzorn]

I wouldn't claim Nidus' new augment is for properly using his abilities. In fact it's kinda for using his abilities less.

Nidus is very 1 spam and that augment gives an alternative. Not a great one in terms of scaling since his 1st ability can do 180k AoE but it's an option. Seems like they wana help him be more mobile but it's rather pointless when he has a literal leash. They wana make him mobile let him drag the enemy around with him or something.

It looks mostly like a band-aid to fix the fact a ton of enemies Ignore her Mirror as a Barrier and just hit her directly. If her Mirror worked correctly, moved quicker and she could move it up and down. She'd effectively be immortal anyways with smart play much like Volt. .... and Garuda is supposed to play at 2HP.

[CodeUltimate]

Garuda's augment needs a 10s duration at base and a different requirement of activation. I think it might be good if the requirement is to use her 1 on an enemy affected by slash status.

[Basalto]

21 hours ago, Ely.I said:

you need to have 300% duration for it to last a mere 15 seconds

Wait, people actually complain about being unkillable for "a mere" 15 seconds in a build dedicated for it? I know everyone got used to Chroma, Inaros and who knows what else, but let's be real, being unkillable is pretty much endlessly scaling, as opposed to something like getting more armor and more health with a limited amount of maxed mods. I'd love being unkillable for 15 seconds.

[CodeUltimate]

4 minutes ago, Basalto said:

Wait, people actually complain about being unkillable for "a mere" 15 seconds in a build dedicated for it? I know everyone got used to Chroma, Inaros and who knows what else, but let's be real, being unkillable is pretty much endlessly scaling, as opposed to something like getting more armor and more health with a limited amount of maxed mods. I'd love being unkillable for 15 seconds.

The problem is the requirement of activation not the duration on the mod so if you try the mod outside of the simulacron you will find out how useless it is.

[(XBOX)E Da Richard]

14 minutes ago, Basalto said:

Wait, people actually complain about being unkillable for "a mere" 15 seconds in a build dedicated for it? I know everyone got used to Chroma, Inaros and who knows what else, but let's be real, being unkillable is pretty much endlessly scaling, as opposed to something like getting more armor and more health with a limited amount of maxed mods. I'd love being unkillable for 15 seconds.

Kinda like the 1st part of Harrows 4th Ability. I

Honestly that Aug was a waste of Standing, I regret it. On the flip side Gara’s Spectrosiphon Augment was well worth it.  The ability itself is lack luster in appearance, but once you get it to 250%+ range, mobs barely notice you.

Edited April 12, 2019 by (XB1)YouBitePi11ows

[Elyi]

48 minutes ago, Basalto said:

Wait, people actually complain about being unkillable for "a mere" 15 seconds in a build dedicated for it? I know everyone got used to Chroma, Inaros and who knows what else, but let's be real, being unkillable is pretty much endlessly scaling, as opposed to something like getting more armor and more health with a limited amount of maxed mods. I'd love being unkillable for 15 seconds.

Read the rest of the post, I'll address your doubts.

First; committing to 300% duration means sacrificing range/efficiency/strength, all those 3 stats are more important on garuda than duration given that all her abilities have good base duration, the mod only last 5 seconds and 15 seconds with maxed duration this means that you have to constantly look out for targets then make sure they're left with less than 40% HP without killing them (if you're solo), when quick thinking does the same without sacrificing anything. TL;DR 300% duration investment is not worth when something else can do the same better without sacrificing anything.

Second; while invincibility is pretty good, it's not a guaranteed endless scaling, what makes the difference on endless scaling is your damage and/or KPS (kills per second) not your EHP alone. It does help however. 
 

Third; you need to stop selectively reading, complain is not about mere 15 seconds of invulnerability, the complain is the required investment of 300% duration that gimps the rest of your kit and the condition for the activation and refreshing makes it simply a worse Quick Thinking.

People on this forum really like to skip or project their opinions on what others say, instead of attempting to understand what the posts are about, this is a bad habit.

[CodeUltimate]

10 minutes ago, Ely.I said:

-snip-

they just want to white knight DE and defend their bad decisions lol

[Xaxma]

3 hours ago, Ely.I said:

I used to have stagger problems but learned that as long as you play properly and move a lot the stagger doesn't really has any effect, even less so when your shield is up. The stagger from quick thinking in this case is a minor inconvenience that is not worth sacrificing range and/or strength on garuda just for the sake of a worst version. Quick thinking is far from obsolete and you stating your opinion that can be easily disregarded by improving your game doesn't really make it a fact. 

For the record I dislike the stagger too, that's why I improved my game to avoid it, someone pointed out to me that it's there to balance an otherwise broken mod, but I still think it should be removed, that's however my personal opinion and preference.

You don't need the 300 duration investment like you've been implying if you can make due with just 10 seconds or less. Like you said, you could "improve your game" and not have to worry about the stagger from Quick Thinking, which is actually a flat out lie on your end because movement while getting hit will still put you into a stagger AND make you lose out on energy you could have otherwise had. If you are sitting at 2 HP with no energy, how are you going to heal yourself with just her abilities alone?! This mod only requires some small investment in duration to get better.

You can try to attack my rhetoric all you like, but the fact of the matter is that this mod is effectively much better than Quick Thinking for Garuda as long as you're competent, which is its entire point: High Risk, High Reward.

Furthermore, I cannot imagine realistically a situation in any moderately challenging content where you can sit for a whole 10 seconds soaking damage with just QT on. You can with this. It just scales better too.

[Elyi]

17 hours ago, Xaxma said:

You don't need the 300 duration investment like you've been implying if you can make due with just 10 seconds or less. Like you said, you could "improve your game" and not have to worry about the stagger from Quick Thinking, which is actually a flat out lie on your end because movement while getting hit will still put you into a stagger AND make you lose out on energy you could have otherwise had. If you are sitting at 2 HP with no energy, how are you going to heal yourself with just her abilities alone?! This mod only requires some small investment in duration to get better.

You can try to attack my rhetoric all you like, but the fact of the matter is that this mod is effectively much better than Quick Thinking for Garuda as long as you're competent, which is its entire point: High Risk, High Reward.

Furthermore, I cannot imagine realistically a situation in any moderately challenging content where you can sit for a whole 10 seconds soaking damage with just QT on. You can with this. It just scales better too.

I'll address each point, make sure you read carefully this and my other posts before replying as I don't like repeating myself forever.

You need 300 duration because 10 seconds is not enough you would know if you put it in practice, it becomes a constant chase the duck game refreshing your augment, as I said if it were 20 seconds base It would be acceptable. I'm not lying read again what I said carefully I don't like repeating myself over and over every comment it's easier if you just read carefully the comment. And you can recover HP using Vazarin, Magus Elevate, or my personal choice Magus repair, it's quite easy, this is of course if you don't like using gear items like health packs or specters like me. 300% duration is no small investment

Not sure what you meant with stack rhetoric... Mod is not better than quick thinking because the stagger is irrelevant, quick thinking doesn't sacrifice any stats while being active 100% of the time allowing you to perform at your best capacity for all your abilities, the mod sacrifices range/efficiency/strength all of those are important for Garuda while duration isn't for reasons i already explained. If you're competent with quick thinking you stay alive forever playing as you feel like without gimping your other abillities, if you're competent with ward you stay alive forever playing a game of chase to constantly keep it up and sacrificing your performance.
TL;DR
Dead ward pros - makes you unkillable without taking energy
Dead ward cons - sacrifices stats gimping garuda's abillities overall performance (no way around this); changes your game into a duck chase making you have to constantly think about refreshing it instead of playing how you want to play (no way around this)

Quick thinking pros - makes you unkillable as long as you have energy
Quick thinking cons - takes energy (garuda can recover energy as long as she has HP); stagger on threshold (avoidable with smart gameplay)

You see you can't say something's a fact just because you think it is, you need to put it in a balance and compare it adequately in this case both have cons and pros, but one of them has a way around cons the other doesn't.

Lastly the situation would be endless, I don't see how that's hard to imagine, but not going as far QT still performs better on basic stuff like orb vallis, arbitrations and sorties, Garuda has good base armor, paired with fiber and 2 guardians she has really high amounts of EHP without even using vitality, quick thinking makes that much higher.

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Ely.I

[5H4DE]

People want a 20 seconds base invincibility buff... you know there's a reason Iron Skin got changed from that exact model right?

[Basalto]

2 hours ago, CodeUltimate said:

they just want to white knight DE and defend their bad decisions lol

Considering how my post history is filled with what can be summarized as "DE makes bad decisions for breakfast", I'd hardly say I'm white knighting for DE.

 

2 hours ago, Ely.I said:

Read the rest of the post, I'll address your doubts.

First; committing to 300% duration means sacrificing range/efficiency/strength, all those 3 stats are more important on garuda than duration given that all her abilities have good base duration, the mod only last 5 seconds and 15 seconds with maxed duration this means that you have to constantly look out for targets then make sure they're left with less than 40% HP without killing them (if you're solo), when quick thinking does the same without sacrificing anything. TL;DR 300% duration investment is not worth when something else can do the same better without sacrificing anything.

Second; while invincibility is pretty good, it's not a guaranteed endless scaling, what makes the difference on endless scaling is your damage and/or KPS (kills per second) not your EHP alone. It does help however. 
 

Third; you need to stop selectively reading, complain is not about mere 15 seconds of invulnerability, the complain is the required investment of 300% duration that gimps the rest of your kit and the condition for the activation and refreshing makes it simply a worse Quick Thinking.

People on this forum really like to skip or project their opinions on what others say, instead of attempting to understand what the posts are about, this is a bad habit.

First: I just can't really understand how 15 seconds in a game where you can easily down an enemy in less than 2 is somehow bad. People constantly defend this game as a power fantasy, yet when they're allowed to spend 15 seconds without dying, they just toss it away because it requires some effort making a build around it? If people want a perfect build with 200% on everything or something similar, they're gonna have to look somewhere else, because I'm pretty sure such levels of absurdity still haven't reached DE's heads. Sacrificing a stat to boost another is nothing groundbreaking or new in Warframe, and I myself have to stand 46% range on my Mesa so I can have over 200% duration for my peacemakers, bullet dance and shattershield, otherwise I'll just keep recasting and recasting and recasting more often than necessary. Wukong can reach such levels of invincibility with a duration build, but not once I saw anyone complaining that it was too little time for too much investment. If anything, what people criticize in Wukong are his other abilities.

Second: If you're invincible, you can't die. Even if the game doesn't specify invincibility, but "unkillable", either way you just can't die unless DE messed up something yet again. If you can't die, damage has no effect on you, be it from a level 1 enemy or a level 150. Not dying literally is something that scales endlessly and with brutal efficiency. You can do so much more in a lot less time if you don't have to dodge hitscan enemies and automatic weapons with over 1000 damage per shot. It's an immense help, and I already say that with my Wukong's invincibility lasting me a mere 7 seconds. Those 7 seconds just work like a damn charm to me.

Third: Sacrifice is part of balance. If you don't want to die for 15 seconds, dedicate your build to not dying for 15 seconds. You sound like the kind of person that would build pure strength and range on Mesa and complain that peacemaker drains energy too quickly.

Honestly, I'm not really confident you're qualified to say that it's other people who "like to skip or project their opinions" when the only other interaction I had with you was you defending Itzal spam against new players and insulting the intelligence of people who disagreed with such a wonderful idea. I'm actually reading it right now, you called it "natural progress". Yeah, it was totally natural to feel like a complete hindrance because you didn't have one very specific item in a game where you're supposed to have a more than decent level of freedom. Being a self-righteous hypocrite doesn't do you any good, and you'd do better by just not acting high and mighty when trying to get your point across. Even land missions don't have things like Volt and Nova selfishly blinking across the entire map and leaving the team behind; their squirrel on crack abilities still benefit the team somehow. Itzal does not do such a thing and you were hellbent on defending that selfish playstyle in a coop game.

[CodeUltimate]

Just now, Basalto said:

-snip-

the problem is not the duration the problem is the requirement.