AOE RUINING ALL THE GAME

[Guest]

8 hours ago, BlackFox66 said:

idk youre doing this by purpose or what, THE POINT IS "IF U CAN PRESS 1 BUTTON AND WIN THE GAME THATS NOT OK" and idk why you everytime giving me an examle other frames on some boss fights or SPY AND CAPTURE MISSION, LOL IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DMG EFFICIENCY, DAMAGE EFFICIENCY, which means you cannot deal more damage on other frames then saryn JUST PRESSING 1 BUTTON.

There is no press 4 to win. If you want to argue that Saryn is press 4 to win when you need to press 1 and 3 as well, then a lot of frames are press 4 to win. Saryn will never outdamage a lot of frames if you just press 4.

Even if you narrow to damage efficiency, damaging bosses and skipping phases is a form of damage efficiency, as is long ranged damage or getting the consistent kills needed in Arbitration. Get that stick out of your butt.

8 hours ago, BlackFox66 said:

and yours "Dont look at mission stats at the end" is stupid because if u can deal more damage by pressing 1 button then the guy using everything - its abuse and op. 

Again, this is hot air because the game has a lot of mission types which is not about dealing more damage, or even dealing damage at all. My argument here is simple - since damage itself is not king in a lot of the game's content, why are you even bringing it up?

9 hours ago, BlackFox66 said:

I want to enjoy the game and being efficient and this is impossible when nuke frames exist. 

I want to enjoy the game as well, as much as you do, and I like to use Saryn and other alternatives to massacre everything. Your enjoyment and mine are polar opposites, but your opinion is not more correct than mine. 

Basically, you have no right to say you are correct because you stance has no more worth than my stance. Just because I have no issues playing Nidus as a mobility and gun only military shooter frame doesn't mean the game should be like that.

9 hours ago, BlackFox66 said:

 Lets look from your point. When you overdamaging saryn as mesa or exscalibur or khora you actually have to pay attention to the game because if not you will die, and as saryn you can kill enemies throw the walls which is stupid

You mean Excalibur and Khora cannot kill enemies through walls when they perfectly can ... You must have never actually used them right? You pay as much attention to the game as when you play Saryn, because Saryn isn't a tank.

At this rate, I don't even know if you have played Mesa and Khora. Please tell me you at least tried Chromatic Blade Excal on Umbra and put forma into him...

I mean I didn't know pressing 1,3,4 while running around and jumping was less gameplay than pressing 1 and 2 or turning on 4 and using 1 to evade attacks. In fact all you have to do is run faster than the Saryn and keep up the damage, which is not hard at all.

9 hours ago, BlackFox66 said:

, and if u answer me 1 more time with examples like "capture, spy, terra" ill consider you as troll. Once more THE POINT IS  "IF YOU CAN PRESS 1 BUTTON AND DELETE THE MAP" ITS OP AND STUPID AND SHOULD BE REMOVED. Your "Facts" isnt explaining why "Press 4 to win" is enjoyable gameplay

I already consider you a troll that is farming forum rep and I am just humouring you at this point. This thread is well overdone and many people have spoken on why there is no press 1 button to delete the map on Saryn when you need to press multiple and keep moving.

Press 4 to win being enjoyable is a matter of personal taste, since I know vets who quit when press 4 to win was nerfed, all with MR >> 20. Even then, it is an imaginary monster you are creating. There is no press 4 to win on Saryn because building her 4 alone is so stupidly inefficient that it only works on starchart, not even Sortie. To damage the map using Saryn, 1 and 3 are far more important than 4. I am beginning to think you have not played Saryn either, or have a very poor understanding of her.

Enjoyable itself is a subjective term. You don't like it, someone else may like it. Vegetarians may not like meat but it doesn't mean we all hate meat. Again, you want to speak for everyone. No, you have no such right. Even an Emperor has no such right.

9 hours ago, BlackFox66 said:

P.S. Sorry for grammar not a native eng speaker

Fair enough.

Although as someone who can speak another language and is learning two more, I find this excuse weak at times.

[Loza03]

6 hours ago, Gawizard said:

OP, I already told you, AoE Frames arent the problem, its enemy variety, Tel me ONE Enemy that you encounter regularly that isnt affected by just pressing 4. Now, tell me how much are countered by pressing 4. See which outweighs which and you'll see why AoE nuke frames are in season.

This guy gets it.

I've been replaying through Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy lately (side note, high recommendation), which is a surprisingly similar game to Warframe in a lot of ways. Power trio of Melee, Guns and Force powers. There's obviously a lot of other differences (In particular, it puts a lot of emphasis on tight balance with many of your weapons sharing ammo pools. And whilst there's no shortage of enemies you can freely mess around with using your entire arsenal, especially your force powers which includes AoE damage and crowd control, there's also plenty who directly counter your abilities. Some enemies counter lightsabers, others guns, and most powerful enemies resist force powers to some degree, but only one is directly immune. And with this, there are ways you can work with this - force-using enemies can counter your force powers but are momentarily vulnerable. Do the right thing in those few moments in the right situation, and you can dominate even the strongest enemies.

Obviously, the kind of precise design Jedi Knight employs wouldn't work for Warframe, but the principle stands. Fighting enemies which can fight back makes it all the more satisfying. I suggest that certain enemies be able to resist certain abilities, on a case-by-case basis. Different enemies resist different powers, and some do to a very significant degree. For example - Limbo's AoE CC shutdown is incredibly oppressive. Some enemies, like Manics and maybe very lightly armoured enemies, should be capable of moving at a reduced speed, enough to catch a Limbo who's using it as a crutch, but not one who's using it as a tool. Flameblades in particular should also be fully immune to stasis - just to really keep players on their toes. For Mesa (not touching the Saryn debate as that's been talked about to death), Melee enemies should be her bane, her counter. They can bypass her DR, they should be unaffected by her CC as well. That way, Mesa is no longer unstoppable, despite still being very powerful - being unaware and relying on your AoE CC and damage to do the work for you gets you killed. Different frames have different strengths and weaknesses, which encourages teamwork for squads and clever builds for Solo - deciding whether or not to play to your strengths or cover your weaknesses.

[Madway7]

5 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Fair enough.

Although as someone who can speak another language and is learning two more, I find this excuse weak at times.

Yeah something I wonder is why they don't use the version of the forums that's closer to the language they speak.

Unless those don't get much attention.

[Gawizard]

11 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This guy gets it.

I've been replaying through Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy lately (side note, high recommendation), which is a surprisingly similar game to Warframe in a lot of ways. Power trio of Melee, Guns and Force powers. There's obviously a lot of other differences (In particular, it puts a lot of emphasis on tight balance with many of your weapons sharing ammo pools. And whilst there's no shortage of enemies you can freely mess around with using your entire arsenal, especially your force powers which includes AoE damage and crowd control, there's also plenty who directly counter your abilities. Some enemies counter lightsabers, others guns, and most powerful enemies resist force powers to some degree, but only one is directly immune. And with this, there are ways you can work with this - force-using enemies can counter your force powers but are momentarily vulnerable. Do the right thing in those few moments in the right situation, and you can dominate even the strongest enemies.

Obviously, the kind of precise design Jedi Knight employs wouldn't work for Warframe, but the principle stands. Fighting enemies which can fight back makes it all the more satisfying. I suggest that certain enemies be able to resist certain abilities, on a case-by-case basis. Different enemies resist different powers, and some do to a very significant degree. For example - Limbo's AoE CC shutdown is incredibly oppressive. Some enemies, like Manics and maybe very lightly armoured enemies, should be capable of moving at a reduced speed, enough to catch a Limbo who's using it as a crutch, but not one who's using it as a tool. Flameblades in particular should also be fully immune to stasis - just to really keep players on their toes. For Mesa (not touching the Saryn debate as that's been talked about to death), Melee enemies should be her bane, her counter. They can bypass her DR, they should be unaffected by her CC as well. That way, Mesa is no longer unstoppable, despite still being very powerful - being unaware and relying on your AoE CC and damage to do the work for you gets you killed. Different frames have different strengths and weaknesses, which encourages teamwork for squads and clever builds for Solo - deciding whether or not to play to your strengths or cover your weaknesses.

I can second this idea, making enemies actually varied and counter a frame by using its weakness (hell it was shown in the valkyr p trailer, to an extent) but otherwise, I like this suggestion.

[Solarsyphon]

6 minutes ago, Basalto said:

As well as you do condescending insulting, I guess. Banshee is unnecessary in this game because players already can shoot their damage to absurd numbers effortlessly. If there was a need for support, this game wouldn't have Saryn and Mesa spamming 4 as meta.

Nuke isn't really meta,counter play is. The counter to the high kill requirements in eso is nukers like saryn. The counter to the danger of arbitration and survivals is tanks.  The counter to the focus on the target in defences are frames the can change targeting like loki, limbo and frost. Bosses all have different counters leading to different meta squads but most often there is a wep damage booster like chroma. There are also specialist farming squads with frames like nekros and hydroid. If you like banshee she is actually part of the meta squad for game modes like index because she boosts damage and locates enemies but sonar builds are for team play not solo. In some game modes nukers like saryn will literally get you nothing including capture, assasination and sabotage. In others they arent much more effective than melee or shooting such as defence, survival and arbitration. The only thing nukers do is kill but killing isn't always the goal and it often gives you nothing but a different coloured number on the end screen, there are also a number of situations where nukes are hard countered like most bosses. 

Finally don't complain to me about condescension. I'm frankly appalled that when you found out the banshee also boosts team mate's abilities you thought that made her less useful.

[Basalto]

18 minutes ago, Solarsyphon said:

Nuke isn't really meta,counter play is. The counter to the high kill requirements in eso is nukers like saryn. The counter to the danger of arbitration and survivals is tanks.  The counter to the focus on the target in defences are frames the can change targeting like loki, limbo and frost. Bosses all have different counters leading to different meta squads but most often there is a wep damage booster like chroma. There are also specialist farming squads with frames like nekros and hydroid. If you like banshee she is actually part of the meta squad for game modes like index because she boosts damage and locates enemies but sonar builds are for team play not solo. In some game modes nukers like saryn will literally get you nothing including capture, assasination and sabotage. In others they arent much more effective than melee or shooting such as defence, survival and arbitration. The only thing nukers do is kill but killing isn't always the goal and it often gives you nothing but a different coloured number on the end screen, there are also a number of situations where nukes are hard countered like most bosses. 

Finally don't complain to me about condescension. I'm frankly appalled that when you found out the banshee also boosts team mate's abilities you thought that made her less useful.

The counter to everything in this game is "the enemy can't do anything with 0 health". Why do you think Nyx doesn't exist anymore, or Vauban got tossed in the trash? Even Wukong's amazing tanking ability is overshadowed because he doesn't need to do it when enemies aren't even alive to hurt him. Damage, damage, damage, it's all the game is about in the end and apparently all it'll ever be. Oh yeah, and then we have everyone's favorite "tank", Chroma, dealing absurd levels of damage while also eating it. Or Inaros being advised to play with a dagger and covert lethality to abuse the ability to one-hit any enemy, not because his health and armor make him an effective tank. Damage, damage, damage, but they all have a common denominator: they can do it alone. They don't need buffs, they don't need some magical godsent support to give them a boost in the form of energy or damage multipliers, all because their builds are made to be a one man army, which in the end is what the game design pushes for, with its absurd levels of minmaxing and bulletsponges. Sure, I can bring a Banshee to help my team get a damage multiplier against the absurd armor scaling, but who says I'll be lasting long enough against hitscan enemies in the first place? The game doesn't even push for a coherent coop party and support frames like Banshee and Nyx either spam their abilities every room to avoid getting shot at, or the player just does the logical thing and gets Mesa with her 95% damage reduction and insane peacemaker damage. As much as I don't really care about competing with people on kills, I don't like seeing only one person play the game, and if I wanted to watch people doing so, I'd go to Twitch or YouTube, where watching people is the actual purpose. Sure, if you like people making your life easy in the game, I won't judge you, we all have our lazy moments and I've had several times where I just didn't fire a single shot in a mission, but the absurdity of the game's design just gets more blatant as time goes on, and unfortunately DE can't pretend it's not a thing, and players will eventually have to stop hiding behind the "muh power fantasy" argument whenever someone brings up the poor balancing and awful scaling.

I'm actually not surprised that you decided to just go with a straw man at the end: I don't play Banshee for damage, I play her for support. However, once the player sees that she doesn't need to do either, it's just pointless to keep using her. She's squishy and unnecessary. As much as people like playing "who gets the 7 digit number first", that's about how important it is: you're not playing the game with Banshee, you're pretending you do. You'd do better to just ask people what they mean instead of jumping to stupid remarks that just push the situation downhill; this is not your bedroom for you to just behave like a $&*^ arbitrarily.

And lastly, Banshee's sonar always came across as a "shoot the glowing spot to deal more damage" ability. The idea that you can boost something that doesn't require aim just removes the idea that Banshee is a high skill and high reward warframe, because people can just tap 2 every room and let Saryn do the insane numbers instead, making the game even easier than it already is. It's pitiful and defeats the purpose of having a warframe that rewards aim. Hell, old Harrow's headshot multipliers for thurible were fine, but apparently I was the only one thinking that and DE just gave it a hardcore buff, making Harrow even more powerful than he already was.

[Solarsyphon]

4 minutes ago, Basalto said:

I'm actually not surprised that you decided to just go with a straw man at the end: I don't play Banshee for damage, I play her for support. However, once the player sees that she doesn't need to do either, it's just pointless to keep using her. She's squishy and unnecessary. As much as people like playing "who gets the 7 digit number first", that's about how important it is: you're not playing the game with Banshee, you're pretending you do. You'd do better to just ask people what they mean instead of jumping to stupid remarks that just push the situation downhill; this is not your bedroom for you to just behave like a $&*^ arbitrarily.                                                                                 

And lastly, Banshee's sonar always came across as a "shoot the glowing spot to deal more damage" ability. The idea that you can boost something that doesn't require aim just removes the idea that Banshee is a high skill and high reward warframe, because people can just tap 2 every room and let Saryn do the insane numbers instead, making the game even easier than it already is. It's pitiful and defeats the purpose of having a warframe that rewards aim. Hell, old Harrow's headshot multipliers for thurible were fine, but apparently I was the only one thinking that and DE just gave it a hardcore buff, making Harrow even more powerful than he already was.

 

Its not a straw man you are complaining about it buffing abilities and I didn't say you were worried about it buffing team mates in general. You have reiterated it here saying you didn't think it should buff abilities.  I  honestly don't care if you didn't like it because you want to try and force your allies to use guns or because you don't want it to help your team. Those are both petty team work failures on your behalf. 

[Basalto]

23 minutes ago, Solarsyphon said:

Its not a straw man you are complaining about it buffing abilities and I didn't say you were worried about it buffing team mates in general. You have reiterated it here saying you didn't think it should buff abilities.  I  honestly don't care if you didn't like it because you want to try and force your allies to use guns or because you don't want it to help your team. Those are both petty team work failures on your behalf. 

I'm complaining about it not requiring any degree of aim to work properly, which defeats the purpose of even showing glowing spots on the enemy. Sonar's description claims to "expose weak spots", and then right after you cast it, everyone starts glowing somewhere. How is that supposed to even make sense buffing ability damage itself? This is essentially day Equinox's 3 and vice versa. I'm not even trying to "force" my allies to use gu- actually, lemme just stop for a moment here and point out that you're genuinely whining a straw man about me wanting to force my teammates to use guns... in a shooter game. Guns. In a third person shooter. Somehow bad in your eye. Back to the topic, Banshee's sonar being a raw buff to literally everything that touches an enemy is bad, but what's even worse is that it's completely unnecessary due to the way the game already works to make each individual player as bullS#&$ powerful as possible; mixing oil with water and all that. It's hardly petty to point out flaws in something, and if anything, you have never seen me play the game with a team. I could brag endlessly about how I'm the first person to turn around when someone enters bleedout, or how I'm constantly keeping an eye on the health bars of my teammates when playing Trinity and night Equinox, or how I actively hunt people to share my Rhino's roar, or how I abuse rage Oberon to ensure I always have energy to heal people, but sure, I don't know what teamwork is because some self-righteous elitist said I don't want to help my team when I'm the one that plays support and tank on absolutely every single game that lets me, instead of selfishly rushing to DPS specs because I like seeing big numbers. Think before you speak.

[Pizzarugi]

A quick reminder that DE shared a warframe usage chart a few devstreams ago.


Percentages are found here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kjME1XFrC0JDqT4XE1kn5uiYENtCFDmy4w6X5AUhnLE/edit#gid=0

Among the MR25, the top frames are Equinox, Mesa (prime will probably take over in time), Rhino Prime, Volt Prime, Saryn Prime and Volt Prime. Four of those are press-4-to-win frames, one's primarily used for iron skin, and the other just disarms and goes invisible.

Hm, I wonder why 4 of the problematic frames are top pick. It can't be the fact they just need to press 1 button to clear entire rooms in almost any mission, can it? 🤔

Edited April 14, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[SenorClipClop]

15 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Nerfing nukes and aoe abilities while these systems are in place will only slow down the aquisition of items and progression of the game, in an already grindy game that has so many things already necessary to farm for, obtain, build, and level just to feel like you're progressing. 

Ignoring the player-perspective argument in a design-perspective discussion, this thread is not against big damage or killing many enemies quickly. That's fine. What isn't fine is how easy it is to do with a few certain setups. The actions with the biggest effects should require more skill and effort than the actions with smaller effects. Otherwise the big-effect actions feel less impactful over time and the smaller actions feel pointless.

Warframe has a lot of interesting gameplay features -- parkour, gunplay, melee, stealth, cc, etc -- but if the most efficient strategy is to stand in one spot and mash a button or two, a large number of players are going to use that method and ignore most or all of the interesting features the game has to offer. Furthermore, in many missions a single one-button nuker kills enemies too quickly/easily for the other players to do anything, which feels like a waste of time if you logged on to play an action game.

[Solarsyphon]

1 hour ago, Basalto said:

I'm complaining about it not requiring any degree of aim to work properly, which defeats the purpose of even showing glowing spots on the enemy. Sonar's description claims to "expose weak spots", and then right after you cast it, everyone starts glowing somewhere. How is that supposed to even make sense buffing ability damage itself? This is essentially day Equinox's 3 and vice versa. I'm not even trying to "force" my allies to use gu- actually, lemme just stop for a moment here and point out that you're genuinely whining a straw man about me wanting to force my teammates to use guns... in a shooter game. Guns. In a third person shooter. Somehow bad in your eye. Back to the topic, Banshee's sonar being a raw buff to literally everything that touches an enemy is bad, but what's even worse is that it's completely unnecessary due to the way the game already works to make each individual player as bullS#&$ powerful as possible; mixing oil with water and all that. It's hardly petty to point out flaws in something, and if anything, you have never seen me play the game with a team. I could brag endlessly about how I'm the first person to turn around when someone enters bleedout, or how I'm constantly keeping an eye on the health bars of my teammates when playing Trinity and night Equinox, or how I actively hunt people to share my Rhino's roar, or how I abuse rage Oberon to ensure I always have energy to heal people, but sure, I don't know what teamwork is because some self-righteous elitist said I don't want to help my team when I'm the one that plays support and tank on absolutely every single game that lets me, instead of selfishly rushing to DPS specs because I like seeing big numbers. Think before you speak.

Sonar literally coats the entire enemy in weak points. It only triggers damage bonus when sonar is on the area the ability targets because aoe abilities do in fact target specific areas on enemies.   The flaw in your team work isn't that you cannot work for the benefit of your team but that your petty and controlling. You have decided you don't like nukes and so you say " no wonder people don't use banshee" when you find out it boosts nukes.  I don't care if you help strategies that you like, you don't help ones you don't.

[SteelOverseer666]

I have recently finished setting up my ESO Saryn and I really enjoy the frame.

But I think she stands to gain a lot by loosing a little.

What I would do if I was the dev would be:

1. Drastically lower the range of her spores.
2. Change her 4 completely. I would change it so that when you press 4 instead of doing damage (her spores do plenty already) it causes all spores on enemies in a large radius to melt into slime that slows enemies and/or reduces their damage output.
3. I would than make that ability #3 instead of toxic lash and toxic lash would become #4 Their energy costs would need to be tweaked as well.

I imagine her game play loop would then look something like this:

Press 1 to hit an enemy in a group with a spore,
Run around trying to spread those spores as far as possible.
If you start getting overrun hit 2 to molt for your regen and/or 3 to CC enemies with the slime so you can retreat/regroup.
If you have energy to spare and are on the offensive hit 4 to boost damage of spores

This way she could still spread her spores and do pretty much the same kind of damage IF she is actively moving around from group to group to spread those spores.

You can kind of test how these changes would feel by building a saryn with really low range but normal strength/efficiency and just pretend she doesnt have her 4th ability.
I personally find it to be alot more fun.

Another change I was thinking about but am really not sure on was to make it so her spores cant completely kill enemies but instead leave them with 1 health. That way other people would still have a chance to partake by finishing them off. I feel that might slow her down too much though.

Edited April 14, 2019 by SteelOverseer666
Structure

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

1 minute ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

I have recently finished setting up my ESO Saryn and I really enjoy the frame.

But I think she stands to gain a lot by loosing a little.

What I would do if I was the dev would be:

1. Drastically lower the range of her spores.
2. Change her 4 completely. I would change it so that when you press 4 instead of doing damage (her spores do plenty already) it causes all spores on enemies in a large radius to melt into slime that slows enemies and/or reduces their damage output.
3. I would than make that ability #3 instead of toxic lash and toxic lash would become #4 Their energy costs would need to be tweaked as well.

I imagine her game play loop would look something like this:

Press 1 to hit an enemy in a group with a spore,
Run around trying to spread your spores as far as possible.
If you start getting overrun hit 2 to molt for your regen and then 3 to CC enemies with the slime so you can retreat/regroup.
If you have energy to spare and are on the offensive hit 4 to boost damage of spores

This way she could still spread her spores and do pretty much the same kind of damage IF she is actively moving around from group to group to spread those spores.

You can kind of test how these changes would feel by building a saryn with really low range but normal strength/efficiency and just pretend she doesnt have her 4th ability.
I personally find it to be alot more fun.

Another change I was thinking about but am really not sure on was to make it so her spores cant completely kill enemies but instead leave them with 1 health. That way other people would still have a chance to partake by finishing them off. I feel that might slow her down too much though.

I'm sorry but this is way to big of a nerf not a "little" one as you put it. a frame like Sayrn should be the benchmark for DPs frames not changed so much she is essentially a different frame. When you consider the fact you need to move around and use more then just her spores later on in survivals to keep spores spread she is more then active enough. Anyone saying she is press one button and win does not understand how she is played for real and want's nerfs that are not needed as such.

[Basalto]

5 minutes ago, Solarsyphon said:

Sonar literally coats the entire enemy in weak points. It only triggers damage bonus when sonar is on the area the ability targets because aoe abilities do in fact target specific areas on enemies.   The flaw in your team work isn't that you cannot work for the benefit of your team but that your petty and controlling. You have decided you don't like nukes and so you say " no wonder people don't use banshee" when you find out it boosts nukes.  I don't care if you help strategies that you like, you don't help ones you don't.

If you're going to blindly accuse me of random things just because you don't like what you firmly believe I am doing (which happens to not be what I'm actually doing, but you already made this personal and your ego won't let you just be a normal person in a discussion), this is just going to go nowhere. I already explained my points and all you can do is throw around insults, which is just shameful.

[SteelOverseer666]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

I'm sorry but this is way to big of a nerf not a "little" one as you put it. a frame like Sayrn should be the benchmark for DPs frames not changed so much she is essentially a different frame. When you consider the fact you need to move around and use more then just her spores later on in survivals to keep spores spread she is more then active enough. Anyone saying she is press one button and win does not understand how she is played for real and want's nerfs that are not needed as such.

You do not need her 4 to spread spores. Melee and/or shooting them work just fine. I very rarely ever use her 4 because the spores are already killing stuff so fast (yes even hours into survival) that it would just be a waste of energy.

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

7 minutes ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

You do not need her 4 to spread spores. Melee and/or shooting them work just fine. I very rarely ever use her 4 because the spores are already killing stuff so fast (yes even hours into survival) that it would just be a waste of energy.

The main point of contention for me was the range nerf to her spores honestly. That is her bread and butter and greatly reducing the range would make her not just less effective but way less effective. You already have to move around a bunch to keep her spores spread on some tile sets as is and it would make it even harder for her to keep her build up damage then it is on some tile sets already (Especially in ESO). Plus I like to Misama from time to time to kill heavier units from time to time if I have the spare energy and spread spores if no other enemies are around, But I digress. Opinions will be opinions after all.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, BlackFox66 said:

i im lazy to respond of all of this xDDD, but leaving the game bacause your 1 button get fixed is rediculous xD

You are not lazy to reply. You have no more valid arguments left based on hard in game evidence when I have presented things that are based on actually playing. You already resorted to Ad Hominem statements earlier and I didn't even bother to address them.

The whole thread is just because you dislike Playstyle X and only want people to play your way. Again, it is the same rehash of "my way or the highway" disguised in a rather tired manner.

This is why all you can do is dismiss the argument.

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

A quick reminder that DE shared a warframe usage chart a few devstreams ago.


Percentages are found here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kjME1XFrC0JDqT4XE1kn5uiYENtCFDmy4w6X5AUhnLE/edit#gid=0

Among the MR25, the top frames are Equinox, Mesa (prime will probably take over in time), Rhino Prime, Volt Prime, Saryn Prime and Volt Prime. Four of those are press-4-to-win frames, one's primarily used for iron skin, and the other just disarms and goes invisible.

Hm, I wonder why 4 of the problematic frames are top pick. It can't be the fact they just need to press 1 button to clear entire rooms in almost any mission, can it? 🤔

Nerfing anything is pretty dumb when the cause of those being the top picks is the nature of content that appeals to MR25++. You can present the statistics, but the facile interpretation of them made is quite shallow, in essence.

There is no point treating things symptomatically - the root cause is the gameplay loop and what people expect from the game. I am not saying that the root cause has to be treated in the first place, but since I have already showed all frames have a Niche, this is a reflection of Niche X being more popular than Niche Y.

And there is nothing wrong if people like Game mode X more than Game mode Y, and Frame X just happens to be good at Game mode X. Again, if people like to drive F1, nerfing F1 cars to make Drag Racing more popular will fail. People won't switch to Dragsters.

Should we nerf chocolate ice cream's flavour just to make strawberry ice cream taste better or vanilla ice cream more popular?

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Guest

[SteelOverseer666]

24 minutes ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

The main point of contention for me was the range nerf to her spores honestly. That is her bread and butter and greatly reducing the range would make her not just less effective but way less effective. You already have to move around a bunch to keep her spores spread on some tile sets as is and it would make it even harder for her to keep her build up damage then it is on some tile sets already (Especially in ESO). Plus I like to Misama from time to time to kill heavier units from time to time if I have the spare energy and spread spores if no other enemies are around, But I digress. Opinions will be opinions after all.

The range I was envisioning was still large enough to reach the next group over.

I just think its currently too large. I can have the spawning area of most tile sets covered in spores in just two casts and two gun shots/melee swings. It feels too easy to me.

With a lower range I would still be able to have the whole map covered in spores I would just need to hit more spores along the way.

And yeah there are some tilesets that the enemies would be too far apart so you wouldn't be able to spread your spores effectively but I think that's more an issue with those tilesets and their enemy spawning/density. I think most frames are going to perform worse there.

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by SteelOverseer666
Structure

[LuckyCharm]

1 hour ago, SenorClipClop said:

Ignoring the player-perspective argument in a design-perspective discussion, this thread is not against big damage or killing many enemies quickly. That's fine. What isn't fine is how easy it is to do with a few certain setups. The actions with the biggest effects should require more skill and effort than the actions with smaller effects. Otherwise the big-effect actions feel less impactful over time and the smaller actions feel pointless.

Warframe has a lot of interesting gameplay features -- parkour, gunplay, melee, stealth, cc, etc -- but if the most efficient strategy is to stand in one spot and mash a button or two, a large number of players are going to use that method and ignore most or all of the interesting features the game has to offer. Furthermore, in many missions a single one-button nuker kills enemies too quickly/easily for the other players to do anything, which feels like a waste of time if you logged on to play an action game.

I disagree. In warframe you're constantly fighting trash tier enemies. Enemies that don't matter and shouldnt matter. What's not okay with the game is the fact that the heavy units that should be big threats just ..arent. They die just as quickly as the trash units which makes single target frames less desirable than aoe ones. Nerfing Aoe's won't change that at all, and people will always migrate to the frame that can aoe the fastest to kill the trash, since heavies are included in the trash with this game currently. 

It's not fun killing trash enemies. It just isnt. You don't get any sort of gratification for killing them, they simply are in the way when you're running, and when you're in one place they're just pretty much sources of energy orbs and ammo for the most part. Imo simply making "heavy units" immune to aoe abilites (damage ones not buffs or debuffs, or things like frost bubbles etc)  would mean that you can still clear trash but enemies like bombards, napalms, heavy gunners, ancients, techs etc are still alive and able to fight you but your own buffs arent just nullified. This'd mean that an ideal team makeup would shift the meta. You'd still have an aoe frame, but single target killers are more in demand too, as well as defensive. 

Tldr: nukes arent bad for killing trash enemies. trash isnt fun to fight. heavies though shouldnt be effected by them and the game would be nuke friendly, but also single target friendly

[Solarsyphon]

27 minutes ago, Basalto said:

all you can do is throw around insults, which is just shameful.

2 hours ago, Basalto said:

this is not your bedroom for you to just behave like a $&*^ arbitrarily.

I didn't mean to offend you I think you should read over what was said again.  As for the issue at hand, Saying nuke = popularity is overly simplistic when rhino and loki clearly break that trend. I think  Vauban is unpopular not because he doesn't do damage but because he is a relic of corridor camping, sitting there and shooting helpless enemies.  While the popular frames are popular because they have depth and they are flashy, Equinox has the most abilities in the game, Saryn and volt has some of the most synergistic abilities in game. Rhino has some of the most synergistic augments in the game and loki has the greatest depth on control of AI in the game. These frames are not press 4 to win frames that was the old days when cc was popular there is a reason why people call molecular prime easy mode.  The popular thing at the moment is synergy and that is why these frames are popular. 

[Basalto]

12 minutes ago, Solarsyphon said:

I didn't mean to offend you I think you should read over what was said again.  As for the issue at hand, Saying nuke = popularity is overly simplistic when rhino and loki clearly break that trend. I think  Vauban is unpopular not because he doesn't do damage but because he is a relic of corridor camping, sitting there and shooting helpless enemies.  While the popular frames are popular because they have depth and they are flashy, Equinox has the most abilities in the game, Saryn and volt has some of the most synergistic abilities in game. Rhino has some of the most synergistic augments in the game and loki has the greatest depth on control of AI in the game. These frames are not press 4 to win frames that was the old days when cc was popular there is a reason why people call molecular prime easy mode.  The popular thing at the moment is synergy and that is why these frames are popular. 

Rhino and Loki are on my "you better do something" list, since their designs are pretty much unchanged across the years, while we got better frames being released time after time. Things like radial disarm spam and invisibility are pretty much dead, since slide attacks are overpowered enough to not need invisibility and radial disarm spam in lots of missions just makes ranged and melee enemies mingle together, and you're suddendly getting shot at from somewhere you believed you just disarmed, which gets combined with Loki's low defenses and you're basically dead. Then we have Rhino being that one noob tank that people use more to carry them through the star chart, than to actually do tanking, since Chroma, Mesa (even Mesa), Nezha, Inaros and many other warframes just offer better tanking, and Rhino's roar is unfortunately not enough to shift the favor back to him, considering the one man army builds. Sure, the damage boost is fun and cool, but it's not something build their equipment around, thinking "I don't need to put that much damage, since I'll have a Rhino to buff me" or something. Loki could be the king of the battlefield and Rhino could take people to Knockdown City, but that just doesn't really do too well in the end. It goes back to damage: Rhino doesn't need to tank if there's nothing to shoot at him; Loki doesn't need to disarm enemies if they don't exist in the realm of the living anymore.

If there's something I genuinely dislike, it is to have synergy locked behind augments, like Rhino's charge's augment being able to work in conjunction with iron skin for a bigger initial value, but the player needing to use a mod slot for it, which in turn means "make your ability into a different ability for it to not suck", at which point it just raises questions about the original ability and why it's even a thing.

[TheGreenFellow]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

The main point of contention for me was the range nerf to her spores honestly. That is her bread and butter and greatly reducing the range would make her not just less effective but way less effective. You already have to move around a bunch to keep her spores spread on some tile sets as is and it would make it even harder for her to keep her build up damage then it is on some tile sets already (Especially in ESO). Plus I like to Misama from time to time to kill heavier units from time to time if I have the spare energy and spread spores if no other enemies are around, But I digress. Opinions will be opinions after all.

Nerfing the range had to be done if they were going to keep in infinite damage scaling...and it inflicts Corrosive status...and she can also do Viral status AOE on demand...like, there's really no reason to be complaining about going from "definitely OP" to "still OP but you at least have to move around to keep the spores going now".

[TheGreenFellow]

1 hour ago, Basalto said:

If there's something I genuinely dislike, it is to have synergy locked behind augments, like Rhino's charge's augment being able to work in conjunction with iron skin for a bigger initial value, but the player needing to use a mod slot for it, which in turn means "make your ability into a different ability for it to not suck", at which point it just raises questions about the original ability and why it's even a thing.

I really agree. If it were up to me, I would simply remove augment mods from the game and instead add their effects to the weapons & abilities, baseline. (Perhaps picking and choosing in some cases, but I digress).

It feels like a band-aid to indecisive design on DE's part, that will only rarely stand up to other mods that could be put in those slots thanks to the overall modding power-spike problem.

Alternatively I might add "Augment slots" that can be attached to a Warframe, using a new Augment Adapter craftable item (who should sell the blueprint, I wonder?), that allows you to add up to 4 augment slots to a Warframe, dependent on how many Forma has been attached to it (1-4 forma depending on how many augments you want). That way, if you manage to squeeze the extra mod capacity to fit an Augment, you could do so that way without setting yourself at a severe disadvantage compared to a non-augmented build.

Hell, one could even just go back to older days of Warframe and grant all Warframes 10 mod slots again instead of the current 8.

There's several options and alternatives to pick from that I feel are superior to the status quo.

[XenMaster]

And when people suggest to add DPS mechanic on CC frames for some reason they get mad?

[(XBOX)Zweimander]

4 minutes ago, TheGreenFellow said:

 Nerfing the range had to be done if they were going to keep in infinite damage scaling...and it inflicts Corrosive status...and she can also do Viral status AOE on demand...like, there's really no reason to be complaining about going from "definitely OP" to "still OP but you at least have to move around to keep the spores going now".

Actually I am fine with where sayrn is at the moment but I was noting the fact that with the change OP suggested it would be reduced even more. To get her spores to be strong and have good range you have to sacrifice efficiency and can barely have positive duration so in my opinion Sayrn is right where she needs to be at the moment and the benchmark for damage frames with her excellent scaling. Every damage frame should have some form of scaling damage and that goes without saying because no one plays DPS frames with static damage or even frames like ember after DE took the nuclear route with her nerfs and made her a far worse warframe. Where as frames like Mesa, Equinox and Sayrn see the most use out of all DPS frames due to their mix of good scaling damage and utility/DR on top of everything else. You already have enough upkeep on Sayrn's spores depending on the Tile set as is and any nerfs would break her effeciency which is not free even now.