Nightwave Grind Breakdown

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

am I the only one that logs on a hour a day and finish most of the nightwave by the end of the week without really trying? Heck I skipped a lot of the missions that were annoying too and Im rank 37 atm.

Edited May 1, 2019 by (XB1)Dex Xean

[XRosenkreuz]

Yes, in a truly shocking disconnect from how literally every other game is designed, you have to participate to get rewards.

It's wild, I know.

[stormy505]

It's amazing in its own way how repulsive warframes grind can be. Like instead of a feeling of accomplishment after grinding something and completing a goal. It just gives me the feeling of wasting my time on a slot machine that pukes on me over the course of days. Case and point. 20 minutes to reach rotation c for a 1% drop chance on an extremely boring mode, whoever thought this was ok should be fired.

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, SteelOverseer666 said:

Thinking about it more though that could be really difficult to implement and maintain.

Yeah, but I think it'd be worth it. It's easier to maintain than to rebuild. In the recent interview with Mogamu, Steve said they would like to bring back the old one-time events in playable form, but they're too busy to do it. They have the intention, they just can't spare anyone to work on that. By making Nightwave a one-time thing, they're just making even more work for themselves in the future, because it's yet another thing players are going to complain about missing out on.

It just seems so silly to throw perfectly good content away like that. Imagine if any other entertainment provider did that, especially when the bits that are thrown away and made unavailable are important for understanding the bits that are coming up in the future. Imagine if a youtuber deleted each of his vidoes as soon as it was a month old. They wouldn't be very successful, would they. Imagine if all copies of A Game of Thrones disappeared from existence as soon as A Clash of Kings came out, and then that vanished as soon as the next one came out. It's lunacy!

[AXCrusnik]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Kuljack said:

A solution maybe, to satisfy your angst for a more reliable grind for rep would have been for DE to install a rep reward when you kill the Wolf. Maybe he could give 1000-5000 rep a kill.

That would certainly be a better consolation prize than just getting a mod we've probably gotten thousands of times by now when he doesn't drop a weapon part. Current implementation of the Wolf is just a recipe for 3 kinds of disappointment, depending on which nasty ingredient RNGesus throws into the bowl.

[Zeoran]

The problem here is not the grind, nor is it that we have to work to get rewards as some ignorant person tried to state.  The PROBLEM is that we're forced to do tons of missions to get ranking in a new syndicate and level up in tiers getting rewards we may not care about or need to FINALLY get the thing we DO want/need.  Things that used to be: Do this - Get reward, are now: Do a bunch of these and EVENTUALLY, you'll earn enough cred to BUY the reward.   That is where and how this system is failing. Everything in there used to be on a single mission - single reward system.  I had to do over a WEEK'S worth of Nightwave missions before I finally made it to Tier 3 and got my FIRST amount of cred to buy the Nitain Extract I could have gotten 4 times EVERY DAY doing a single mission for each one. Same goes for Vauban parts, aura mods, weapon skins, etc.   And a simple solution to the problem would be to grant cred for EVERY "Activity" that you do: Daily - 5 cred, Weekly - 10 cred, Elite Weekly - 20 cred.  That way we're EARNING something valuable with each mission, versus earning nothing more than standing in a new syndicate. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I have 2 jobs (only had 1 job for the first 7 months playing). (now going on 450+ days from login counts)

I'm glad I played in the days of Alerts. My first year, I got all the Nitain I needed for everything (except the new aura formas, but I doubt I'll ever get any of that anyway), I got nearly all the Aura mods, I got all the weapon blueprints and nearly all the alt helmets... tons of resources (especially Oxium) and credits (YES, they were useful for credits when I was a newbie)... and between the Gifts of the Lotus, Invasions, and Alerts, I have a stockpile of over 30 Orokin catalysts and over 30 Reactors. Oh yeah, and Vauban, got him without trying, actually 3 copies, but I can't trade the non-prime stuff.

I never set alarms for alerts... I skipped Interception and Excavation alerts... I never stressed over missing alerts because they kept popping up. Maybe my schedule just synched up well with the Alert schedule? I was working 7:45am to 4:15ish pm most days... not much different than most people with full time jobs. Plus I had other commitments that kept me from the game at other times during the week.

What have I gotten from Nightwave, compared to Alerts? The most notable things: I picked up a few aura mods to gift to friends I'm trying to invite to play Warframe and a helmet for completionist's sake, not that I liked it (Titania's Mab). I've got enough Wolfcred left over for 1 potato or some Nitain, Prestige 2. That's in 2 MONTHS of playing stuff that I didn't want to be doing, or already did the previous week without it being "worthy" of reward (more times than I'd like to count - farming grove spectres the week before... and using up all my keys, and had to go hunt down all the plants for new keys the very next week... fun? no, infuriating.)

That's the whole ("cred shop" = Alerts) comparison of these events.

Alerts need to be "Revamped" not "Removed".

Very simple: Make them last a lot longer (like 6-12hrs for credits and resources, keeping GotL at 24hrs as well as reactors/catalysts/blueprints/nitain), and have larger rewards (when they're credits and resource bundles)
This way, it wouldn't matter WHEN the Alert popped up, so much, as long as it did. (Also, I'd let people accept the contracts and complete them any time they wanted, even letting them "accept" them from a phone app, the website, or within the game. Maybe even allowing people to "auto-accept" a certain number of contracts so they're not even tied to watching the alerts at all - though you could maybe only keep one of each type of alert kept in reserve.)

They could even be tied into the Nightwave system, rewarding Nightwave standing and whatever "wolfcred" becomes the new currency.

~~~~~

Nightwave is like previously 2-week-events stretched out over 10+ weeks (as will future Nightwave series events - at least similar timespans as far as we know). The main rewards of the "Event" are the syndicate rank-up rewards. They intentionally time-gated these ranks via standing caps by way of a limited number of acts that could be fulfilled each week, and the very low bonus provided by fugitives. Normal events of this sort let you grind out everything you want in a few days and then get back into your normal routine and fulfilling your own goals. Nightwave has taken over weekly goals for the foreseeable future, until the point in each series when you have everything you need from its ranks and cred shop. THEN you get to take a break and do your own thing.

The primary failure of Nightwave is the lack of a catch-up mechanic for those who start late, or cannot complete enough acts weekly - for any number of reasons. I say this is a failure because Nightwave is replacing Alerts, which did not punish you by restricting future rewards if you miss any of the alerts. If you miss an alert, you miss a single reward that will cycle around and pop up again in much less than 10+ weeks.

The fact that you can get cash shop items and cosmetics from Nightwave makes it even more enticing to do what it asks, but does not make it successful or "better" than Alerts, as it perpetuates the same "Snooze, you lose" problem they explicitly stated they were resolving with the system. (Progressively working toward purchases in the shop, rather than hoping you're around for a random alert.)

This is compounded by the rotating Cred Shop offerings. If you don't have enough creds when the item you want is actually available in the shop, you lose. If you spend all your credits on something else that pops up, because you have no idea what future offerings will be, you then miss out on that when you don't have enough creds in the future.

BOTH reward systems presented by Nightwave are "Snooze, you lose" mechanics. The design of the system has been contradicted by the other goals they had for Nightwave: namely, to get people to play more regularly (this is at least one stated reason the creds expire after a series, so you have a reason to play the next series - leading to a whole new level of anxiety over missing out.)

Alerts may have been skippable, even ignorable entirely, but that was the beauty of them. If I WANTED to do an Alert, I did... if not, I didn't, and I didn't feel I missed out in a big way. With Nightwave, all the uncertainty and deadlines and the deletion of progress if you don't reach a certain point by an unknown time, pushes people to do more than the system may require of them, but it's not their fault, it's the system's ambiguity and failures of design.

There's a lot more that could be said, but those are the main things I like to point out in different threads, just to give a voice in more articulated form of the reasons for the frustration that leads to less articulated forum posts by those who are just fed up and left out and burned out.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

10 hours ago, Facadedestroyer said:

the issue here is how much time and effort that ''participation'' is asking from us and in nightwave case its a lot and not only that, we have to fellow a stupid chore list that force us to play the game a certain way that not anybody enjoy or have a time for, also the rewards are very bad

If you think the rewards suck and the challenges aren't fun there's a simple solution.  Don't participate.

 

[SastusBulbas]

My younger son is MR4, we played a bit together, he got Vauban from alerts, wanted Vauban Prime, and did occasional alerts for Nitain.

 

Since Nightwave, my daughter has played once, my older son seems to have quit Xbox and pc, and younger son only played 45 waves of defence cause I asked him to for my Nightwave mission.

 

I liked the old alerts, as a casual player between two three games with 12h a day work and a family it suited me.

 

 

But now it seems to have divided players and brought others to grind more while pushing others away.

 

 

And all we get is toxic remarks if you complain. 

 

 

 

[Zeoran]

I think something is getting constantly misconstrued.  Those of us who are complaining are NOT against the "grind".  We fully accept that, it's a core part of the game.  But we have a problem when DE replaces a (mostly) working Alert system where you had 'Do x mission, get x reward' and it's been replaced with 'Do multiple x missions until you gain enough standing, then go through 3 Tiers of standing until you finally reach the tier where we reward you with a new currency you need to purchase what you used to gain directly'.  

Was the Alert system perfect?  No, by no means.  But the simple FACT remains that it was better for most people, especially those with limited time, to get what they needed simply and quickly.  There were many ways they could have simply improved the Alert system.  They could have made the Alerts static and posted the release schedule online somewhere, alternating the schedule.  But they took a simple grind=reward system and replaced it with a PAYWALL with its own currency.  

Honestly, I would much rather have the Alert system back with some improvements.  But I don't think DE is going to do that, so I was trying to propose a way to make the existing Nightwave system work better and the easiest solution for that is to give players cred for each 'Challenge' they complete.  Again, 5 cred for Daily, 10 for Weekly, 20 for Elite Weekly.  In that scenario, I would only have to do 5 Daily challenges to earn enough cred to get 5 Nitain Extract, which balances out.  1 Weekly and 1 Elite weekly and I have enough cred for an Aura mod.  The biggest problem with the system now is the lack of reward for the grind.  We're forced to gain standing in a faction in order to get currency to spend on what used to be gained as a reward for a SINGLE mission.  

Players who spend 20+ hours/week playing need to be mindful of those who can only play an hour or two per day, if that.  And we need a system that works for both.  

[Marine027]

Gerade eben schrieb Zeoran:

I think something is getting constantly misconstrued.  Those of us who are complaining are NOT against the "grind".  We fully accept that, it's a core part of the game.  But we have a problem when DE replaces a (mostly) working Alert system where you had 'Do x mission, get x reward' and it's been replaced with 'Do multiple x missions until you gain enough standing, then go through 3 Tiers of standing until you finally reach the tier where we reward you with a new currency you need to purchase what you used to gain directly'.  

Was the Alert system perfect?  No, by no means.  But the simple FACT remains that it was better for most people, especially those with limited time, to get what they needed simply and quickly.  There were many ways they could have simply improved the Alert system.  They could have made the Alerts static and posted the release schedule online somewhere, alternating the schedule.  But they took a simple grind=reward system and replaced it with a PAYWALL with its own currency.  

Honestly, I would much rather have the Alert system back with some improvements.  But I don't think DE is going to do that, so I was trying to propose a way to make the existing Nightwave system work better and the easiest solution for that is to give players cred for each 'Challenge' they complete.  Again, 5 cred for Daily, 10 for Weekly, 20 for Elite Weekly.  In that scenario, I would only have to do 5 Daily challenges to earn enough cred to get 5 Nitain Extract, which balances out.  1 Weekly and 1 Elite weekly and I have enough cred for an Aura mod.  The biggest problem with the system now is the lack of reward for the grind.  We're forced to gain standing in a faction in order to get currency to spend on what used to be gained as a reward for a SINGLE mission.  

Players who spend 20+ hours/week playing need to be mindful of those who can only play an hour or two per day, if that.  And we need a system that works for both.  

This.

I can only agree i mean technically it is a normal event still, with unique rewards which sitll can stay at the ranks, but the wolf creds for the shop should not be that limited, the main problem is not people gettign the unique stuff but rather that the normal stuff we sued ot get quick now is locked behind some shop system which in its own is worse as alert ever could had been in my eyes, Auras will be much less in the market as example and more expensive due the beeing that rarer due people have to choose between them, nitain, vauban, etc instead.

It should act and work like any normal syndicat, i am fine with it workign for it but the main problem is also simply the wolf creds will be worthless after this session, and THAT is the main problem, new players can't safe up for any if joined late, veterans don't have much use also for them which is debatable, catalysts are the best i guess in my eyes but you can buy auras instead and sell those and buy catalysts from the market instead due the price increase, just as mere example here.

And AGAIN i can't repeat this often enough, it is not about Alerts OR Nightwave, AGAIN why not both? Alerts honestly maked the universe atleast sort of more lifely it made people unlock the starchart, now you just do eather low challanges like sabotage and do the same low levle one maybe, or the high stuff you taxi to and be done also, Alertssure you could do the same but with the map you were safe having the nods.

Main point stays, why did Nightwave had to replace Alerts. I love DE but there decisions seem lazy, it not works, lets remove it, like trials. And as far i heard they want to remove elevators, becasue they could bug, meaning less map variety in my eyes due tilesets with elevators probably get removed instead of reworked. And with news like this i loose my trust in DE slowly with the recent "updates", i also have no hope in Railjack simply due it will be another gimmick like K-Drive or Archwign which got forgotten fast.

[toafarmer]

I personally quit GW2 when they decided to add temporary content every 2 weeks (back then when GW2 was a thing). Well, GW2 was (is?) a crappy game overall, but the temporary content was what made me quit it for good, specially considering it was every 2 weeks and the content pretty much sucked.

I am a completionist - as the OP probably is/wants to be - and I know casuals fail to understand that, for completionists, completing things is a thing. That said. I am totally against "content" like nightwash, unless the same rewards come back every once in a while for the ones who couldn't get it. They could be added for an expensive price to the cred store of the upcoming episodes or something like that. I personaly got to lvl 30 (I'm currently lvl 16 on the "post 30" tiers), so I have everything available, but I feel for the people who came late to the party. Could be me.

[ThumpumGood]

30 waves.... LOL that's cute