Banshee Survivability needs overhaul

[HAYABU5A]

in the current environment most frames esp the newer generation or reworked ones all have some sort of damage reduction or mitigation

banshee is a glaring exception to this

propose an acoustically themed damage mitigation or deflection be reworked or added to her kit

eg; sonar also disrupting enemy accuracy while active or harmonic deflection of damage (on banshee only)

or even a augment

Quote

 

Harmonic Shield Modulation - Sound Quake Augment (damage reduction)

Banshee focuses and channels her Sound Quake ultrasonic reverberations inwards, no longer able
to inflict outward damage in order to enhance her shields protective barrier and constantly
remodulating her shield frequencies to best resist enemy fire.

Drains 1 point of energy per second when active. 3 Energy per adaption. Affected by Ability Efficiency, and the minimum and maximum energy drain are affected by Ability Efficiency and Ability Duration.

-Shield can not be bypassed by any damage types while skill is active. Shield recharge rate amplified to x3.0. Shield is unaffected by Cold and
Magnetic. Passive (while activated only)

-Innate Adaption - stacks up to 90% resistance of last damage type received from 10% for
30secs. Refresh instantly when new damage type exceeds previous highest. Affected by Duration.

-15% chance whenever the player receives damage to regenerate Shields at +120 shield/sec for
20secs with corresponding additional energy drain at 10 energy per activation. 10% chance to instantly restore all shields at 5 energy per activation. Cannot Stack. Affected by Efficiency, Powerstrength, and Duration.

 

 

[taiiat]

Banshee does have 3 CC Abilities, however. 

besides, you're basically asking for Adaptation, Aegis, and Barrier to be made innate. or, yno, just Equip them.

Edited August 18, 2019 by taiiat

[kgabor]

No thanks, we have enough frames with dr..

I would rather go with giving Banshee a skill based option for survivability by replacing Sound Quake with an ability that gives invisibility on headshots, similarly to Arcane Trickery but with headshots as a trigger.

This would go well with Banshee as a ghost and would make the frame stand out from the easy options and would justify Banshee being a strong frame.

I would also make Sonar weakspots slowly float up to head hitboxes to create a kit synergy.

[ShortCat]

I would say the overabundance of silly and low effort 95% DR mechanics is the problem.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

Nty, Banshee should stay as a glass cannon with one of the best damage buffer cast abilities in the game. She should stay as a technical-CC frame to survive.

The one and only few points that I agree with Rob from AGGP is that if you can play as a Banshee solo, you can survive just fine in the game. A lot of abilities and passives in Warframe creates bad habits for the playerbase, Banshee is the antithesis of this methodology and her kit is one of the few things that helps to improve players to overcome those habits.

[Tiltskillet]

I'd like it if Silence left a lingering debuff  to help with survivability--like a moderate slow, for instance--after its short stun ended.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Tiltskillet

[HAYABU5A]

20 hours ago, kgabor said:

No thanks, we have enough frames with dr..

I would rather go with giving Banshee a skill based option for survivability by replacing Sound Quake with an ability that gives invisibility on headshots, similarly to Arcane Trickery but with headshots as a trigger.

This would go well with Banshee as a ghost and would make the frame stand out from the easy options and would justify Banshee being a strong frame.

I would also make Sonar weakspots slowly float up to head hitboxes to create a kit synergy.

this sounds pretty awesome tbh lol

and very thematic too like u said as a ghost/wraith 

[kgabor]

9 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'd like it if Silence left a lingering debuff  to help with survivability--like a moderate slow, for instance--after its short stun ended.

I was thinking about giving Banshee a slider for modifying Silence's range (though that still wouldn't be necessarily a bad thing either, switching Silence's range during missions, like Khora can switch Venari's stances), but this would actually make high range build Silence also more viable.

But i hope the slow effect wouldn't be too strong, really just a minor debuff would do, like 30-40% max, since it would be a continous mobile debuff, it would already become an alternative to Nova's MP or Equinox's augmented Pacify&Provoke and while the latter has better numbers, the buildup makes form switching detrimental.

Imo. if both this and the slider would be added to Silence, along with building the Savage Silence augment into the main ability(finishers could be toggled with a slider too), the ability wouldn't even need any more changes.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

Not every warframe has to be a tank, and i like it.

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, kgabor said:

But i hope the slow effect wouldn't be too strong, really just a minor debuff would do, like 30-40% max, since it would be a continous mobile debuff, it would already become an alternative to Nova's MP or Equinox's augmented Pacify&Provoke and while the latter has better numbers, the buildup makes form switching detrimental.

That's about the maximum percentage I was imagining if it lasted for the full Silence duration.  Alternately, it could be a shorter, fixed duration, and re-applicable the same way the stun is currently.

Really I'd rather Silence was  reworked and made recastable though.   When we only have four abilities per frame, I'm not fond of any of them being long timer "background" effects.  Silence is hardly the most egregious of these, but it's bad enough to irk me.

[Peter]

On 2019-08-18 at 4:29 AM, taiiat said:

Banshee does have 3 CC Abilities, however. 

2 bad CC abilities and 1 that only works 1x.
 

12 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Not every warframe has to be a tank, and i like it.

It's not about being a Tank, it's about using 2 ~ 3 defensive mods and continuing to die in 1 shot.

@Topic:

I would love for Banshee to have some kind of invisibility, even better in place of 4 which is useless today.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Peter

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

28 minutes ago, Peter said:

It's not about being a Tank, it's about using 2 ~ 3 defensive mods and continuing to die in 1 shot.

Sorry but still, no. Tanks in warframe are already very mediocre to be honest, because most of them have to do a lot of tricks to tank, or abuse abilities not even related to them (like Arcanes). Just ask for any D&D veteran how a classic tank looks like. 

The only exception i can think of is Inaros. 

Unless they change all tank frames to work mostly passively, I won't ever accept anything having durability rather than them.

Edited August 19, 2019 by (XB1)XG1anBl4derX

[George_PPS]

Banshee is a great frame with very interesting abilities and great/beautiful design except she is way to squishy so she is out of my most played list. Please DE buff her survival ability!

Edited August 19, 2019 by George_PPS

[Peter]

58 minutes ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Sorry but still, no. Tanks in warframe are already very mediocre to be honest, because most of them have to do a lot of tricks to tank, or abuse abilities not even related to them (like Arcanes). Just ask for any D&D veteran how a classic tank looks like. 

Honestly I don't know what you're talking about, all recent Warframes are excellent at DPS and can survive well.

Banshee deserves better defense mechanics, remove this horrible 4 and put something really useful in place, we have enough nukers already.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

51 minutes ago, Peter said:

Honestly I don't know what you're talking about, all recent Warframes are excellent at DPS and can survive well.

It's not about what they do, it's about how. Also, i really wanna know what are those frames that can tank and have huge DPS, Chroma is the only one that comes to my mind. But even then, Chroma only has single target DPS, he doesn't have AoE DPS like Saryn for example, so he is FAR from being "excellent at DPS" unless you're fighting bosses (like Eidolons).  

You're expecting her to have survivability with 1 skill. You have to invest on tanking to make even the most OP tanking skills worth, like Parasitic Link, Iron Skin, Vex Armor, etc. 

Rhino for example is the most complicated tank, because for him to work at full power you have to not only him, but the damn companion too. 

I will still defend against your idea, no character deserves durability except the ones designed to tank. Because tanking is way too active in this game, and you have to invest a lot on it, most times sacrificing QoL like efficiency/Damage in the process. 

Again: unless they change all tanks to work almost in the same way as Inaros, being mostly a natural/passive tank. Your suggestion is not balanced.

[Peter]

3 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

It's not about what they do, it's about how. Also, i really wanna know what are those frames that can tank and have huge DPS, Chroma is the only one that comes to my mind. 

Wisp, Hildryn, Baruuk, Garuda, Revenant, Khora, Gara, Harrow, Nidus, Inaros, Nezha, Wukong, Atlas, Volt (capacitance), Mesa, Oberon, Valkyr, Saryn and Excalibur, pick one.

3 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

You're expecting her to have survivability with 1 skill. You have to invest on tanking to make even the most OP tanking skills worth, like Parasitic Link, Iron Skin, Vex Armor, etc.

I think you got it wrong, we don't want an Inaros Banshee, we want her to have consistent survival mechanics.

3 hours ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

I will still defend against your idea, no character deserves durability except the ones designed to tank. Because tanking is way too active in this game, and you have to invest a lot on it, most times sacrificing QoL like efficiency/Damage in the process. 

I believe your builds are bad, I can turn any tank (except Inaros) into an good DPS, not everything need 99 offensive mods to work.

[Xzorn]

Banshee's only problem is the way DE are designing enemies. She's very reliant on her CC and massive glass cannon damage.

When they make enemies that dispell or are immune to debuffs and CC it essentially removes her ability to survive. CC has been attacked over and over to the point it's no longer reliable for most frames and Banshee very much requires it to be. She also has the highest team damage multiplier in the game but it's pointless if the enemy is immune.

The end of every Banshee Solo story is a Nullifier shooting her in the face. She's still a primary pick of any long run group though.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

31 minutes ago, Peter said:

Wisp, Hildryn, Baruuk, Garuda, Revenant, Khora, Gara, Harrow, Nidus, Inaros, Nezha, Wukong, Atlas, Volt (capacitance), Mesa, Oberon, Valkyr, Saryn and Excalibur, pick one.

Most of them are not even tanks, and even the ones that are have mediocre AoE DPS. Congratulations.

32 minutes ago, Peter said:

I think you got it wrong, we don't want an Inaros Banshee, we want her to have consistent survival mechanics.

3 CC skills are not enough, lol...

32 minutes ago, Peter said:

I believe your builds are bad, I can turn any tank (except Inaros) into an good DPS, not everything need 99 offensive mods to work.

-> Can't survive with a frame that literally has 3 CC skills. 

-> "Your builds are bad". 

Yeah yeah, say what you want kid. "I can turn any tank into a DPS", and that's including their skills or you're only counting weapons? 

Also, single target DPS is useless outside of bossfights, weapons (specially meelees) can cover that pretty well with no interference from Warframe skills. So, tell me again, where are those Warframes with DPS you talked about...? 

Apart from Nidus, the only exception because that frame is straight up broken, nothing else fits your claims. To fit into the DPS class they would have to play similar as Saryn. Because outside of Nukes, DPS skills for single target are useless because your weapons alone can do the work. Your weapons however, don't have a lot of range or cover enough area.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

8 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Banshee's only problem is the way DE are designing enemies. She's very reliant on her CC and massive glass cannon damage.

When they make enemies that dispell or are immune to debuffs and CC it essentially removes her ability to survive. CC has been attacked over and over to the point it's no longer reliable for most frames and Banshee very much requires it to be. She also has the highest team damage multiplier in the game but it's pointless if the enemy is immune.

The end of every Banshee Solo story is a Nullifier shooting her in the face. She's still a primary pick of any long run group though.

Nobody would want Nullifiers removed anyways. 

That's what i find funny. You can't have skills that exploit some gameplay aspects by ignoring them (like the previous Defy from Wukong), but enemies can. 

A problem that probably would have been solved before with the players focused on complaining about the right stuff.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

Wisp, Khora, Atlas, Volt, Oberon, Saryn and Excalibur

i can give you the rest, but none of these constitute as 'Tanks'.
adding Adaptation, Armor, and EHP Mods to them doesn't make them 'Tanks', as other Warframes can add these things too but have more features or more effective features for durability.

adding a few of these things onto any Warframe can certainly achieve 'durable enough to do the job', but that doesn't make it a 'Tank'. 

in particular, Volt, Saryn, and Excalibur have zero features to them that can fulfill this purpose. generating Overshields or regenning Health are just EHP Mods in another form. Radial Blind is obviously not a Tanking Ability.
Atlas just has above average basic Stats, which like Saryn and Excalibur - make not does a 'Tank'.

there's some others i did leave into the group of 'Tanks' you suggested that are only there by technicality:
Harrow is only there because technically Covenant can fullfill that role. sort of.
Valkyr only there because of Hysteria, which is another form of technicality.
Wukong.... is there because of being able to avoid Damage and Heal, and only because of that. it's an important distinction, as no, it's not Defy that makes Wukong pass as a 'Tank'. not by itself.
 

30 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Banshee's only problem is the way DE are designing enemies.

When they make enemies that dispell or are immune to debuffs and CC it essentially removes her ability to survive. CC has been attacked over and over to the point it's no longer reliable for most frames and Banshee very much requires it to be. She also has the highest team damage multiplier in the game but it's pointless if the enemy is immune.

game causing its own problems as always, yeah. sigh.
i wanna be creative and do cool things, but the game always wants to tell us that we're not allowed to be creative because that's """too meta""". idunno what the game is smoking but i don't want any of it and it should be a felony *cackling*

Edited August 20, 2019 by taiiat

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

12 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i can give you the rest, but none of these constitute as 'Tanks'.
adding Adaptation, Armor, and EHP Mods to them doesn't make them 'Tanks', as other Warframes can add these things too but have more features or more effective features for durability.

adding a few of these things onto any Warframe can certainly achieve 'durable enough to do the job', but that doesn't make it a 'Tank'. 

in particular, Volt, Saryn, and Excalibur have zero features to them that can fulfill this purpose. generating Overshields or regenning Health are just EHP Mods in another form. Radial Blind is obviously not a Tanking Ability.
Atlas just has above average basic Stats, which like Saryn and Excalibur - make not does a 'Tank'.

there's some others i did leave into the group of 'Tanks' you suggested that are only there by technicality:
Harrow is only there because technically Covenant can fullfill that role. sort of.
Valkyr only there because of Hysteria, which is another form of technicality.
Wukong.... is there because of being able to avoid Damage and Heal, and only because of that. it's an important distinction, as no, it's not Defy that makes Wukong pass as a 'Tank'. not by itself.
 

game causing its own problems as always, yeah. sigh.
i wanna be creative and do cool things, but the game always wants to tell us that we're not allowed to be creative because that's """too meta""". idunno what the game is smoking but i don't want any of it and it should be a felony *cackling*

The problem is that, it seems OP doesn't really know what he wants.  

Banshee has 3 CC skills, enough for survivability. We have to understand that survivability =/= tanking (people tend to mix both). 

A lot of frames have tools to survive and all of them should have, tanking on the other way, is something that should be exclusive to frames designed with this in mind.

[yles9056]

1 hour ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Banshee has 3 CC skills, enough for survivability.

I don't think Sound Quake is useful for Banshee's survivability. It has long casting animation and locks Banshee in place.

Banshee needs better survivability IMO, but not the kind of survivability OP proposed.

How about giving Banshee the ability to create sound distraction? Imagine Banshee removes all sound with Silence, but also creates sound sources to distract and manipulate enemies. It's like Ivara's noise arrow, but more powerful.

Edited August 20, 2019 by yles9056

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, (XB1)XG1anBl4derX said:

Nobody would want Nullifiers removed anyways.

Oh, they're notorious for bringing up heated debate.

In the past "Tanky" frames could get by with making mistakes but not achieve the level of power "Caster" frames like Banshee could. This was for the most part a fair trade. It wasn't always fun but it worked. Make no mistakes and you could do some crazy stuff. No harm in that. Lately though these frames just get countered too often so mistakes are likely and they have nothing to fall back on. The games new weight on spamming missions doesn't help either by putting way too much value in speed over tactic.

 

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

game causing its own problems as always, yeah. sigh.

i wanna be creative and do cool things, but the game always wants to tell us that we're not allowed to be creative because that's """too meta""". idunno what the game is smoking but i don't want any of it and it should be a felony *cackling*

They really need to just step back and work from the foundation up so things in the game fit and scale properly.

CC got out of control because enemy damage scaling was absurd at the time. You could root a lot of problems to enemy damage scaling. The massive eHP gap between frames we have now is another. The core mechanics just didn't work right in the first place but they kept building on top. Now it's a massive pile to sort through.

Until then I guess they're just going to keep making these module mini-games and pretend it's not there or something.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2019‎-‎08‎-‎18 at 10:59 AM, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

The one and only few points that I agree with Rob from AGGP is that if you can play as a Banshee solo, you can survive just fine in the game. A lot of abilities and passives in Warframe creates bad habits for the playerbase, Banshee is the antithesis of this methodology and her kit is one of the few things that helps to improve players to overcome those habits.

This very thing has been my gauge since he first mentioned it.  I realized that Banshee Solo teaches great tactics that would benefit a player later regardless of frame chosen later.  Because of this my Banshee Prime uses a build with this in mind to test various game mechanics and enemy tactics.  

Then again I've always said the game is much different when playing solo than with a team.  😀 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, yles9056 said:

 

Banshee needs better survivability IMO, but not the kind of survivability OP proposed.

How about giving Banshee the ability to create sound distraction? Imagine Banshee removes all sound with Silence, but also creates sound sources to distract and manipulate enemies. It's like Ivara's noise arrow, but more powerful.

Very, very cool idea. 👍  I've often wished she had a little more stealth ability (not invisibility).  And if, unlike Noise Arrow, it had some reliable effect on alerted enemies too, that'd be awesome.