It use to be an Eidolon... But then it took an arrow to the knee.

[Lolacrayola]

If its a projectile based weapon it cant do water limbs which pretty much makes it an instant fail. Its hitscan or bust - ideally hitscan that doesn't suffer damage falloff.

I just don't see anything ever beating Rubico Prime for eidolon hunting. Even if its riven disposition goes down to 0.5 toilet tier, it still has innately high crit, innately high base damage, combo multiplier, crit damage scope bonus and no fall off. And you can shoot a synovia out as soon as you see a shoulder pixel above the lake surface.

Even with Ivara (who can do a bajillion damage with navigator castanas), you are still going to shoot out water limbs with Rubico. It is what it is, at least until DE gets around to fixing it.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Lolacrayola

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Midcall said:

if you re chroma and  using serration then you re doing it not the best way. vex armor already works like serration. use vigilante arnaments instead. source: 700j hydro caps as chroma.

Fair enough but why? I mean, being that sure an umbral chroma can do over 1000% extra damage........ but an extra 165%..... ah, i get it, it's because it guarantees two arrows and gives a chance for three....which means the per arrow damage is weaker than it would be if using serration, because it is guaranteed to land two the over all dps is improved. Fair enough. 

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Gotta ask you something. 

Is it that people really don't understand what a meta is? Or is it that they just think that it's funny to act like they don't? 

 

Have you ever heard of people using ants to find the most efficient routes in a model? I mean a colony of ants can rapidly solve "travelling salesman" type problems, not because the researchers say "here is the most effective path" but because of simple trial and error. 

I mean it should be obvious that players test, tweak and theorycraft until they find the most efficient tactics, and once a better way is found, we all move towards that solution which then becomes the "meta". That has nothing to do with DE deciding to enforce a meta. 

 

Meta, specifically M E T A, Most Effective Tactic Available. 

Almost all metas are assigned, intended gameplay mechanics. For a developer to release content without having put serious balancing thought into the method it should be engaged with would be unforgivably incompetent. The problem with eidolon hunts is not that there is a meta, the problem is that meta is boring and frankly because almost every encounter will be the same frames, the same weapons, the same abilities cast at the same times. 

If you want to pretend that developers just put out game modes and giddily wait to see how their ever so clever players find a way to release them.... You're wrong. It's that simple. You are wrong. They put significant planning in advance and usually with a release of a new type of game mode theres a few things that get hit hard with the nerf hammer because they didn't think of them beforehand. The meta isn't just this thing people stumble upon, it's a fundamental part of game planning and yes they absolutely will protect it. 

there are unintended metas such as the spin to win exploit, but most metas are absolutely a design choice, not something people just figure out by group think. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Meta, specifically M E T A, Most Effective Tactic Available. 

Almost all metas are assigned, intended gameplay mechanics. For a developer to release content without having put serious balancing thought into the method it should be engaged with would be unforgivably incompetent. The problem with eidolon hunts is not that there is a meta, the problem is that meta is boring and frankly because almost every encounter will be the same frames, the same weapons, the same abilities cast at the same times. 

If you want to pretend that developers just put out game modes and giddily wait to see how their ever so clever players find a way to release them.... You're wrong. It's that simple. You are wrong. They put significant planning in advance and usually with a release of a new type of game mode theres a few things that get hit hard with the nerf hammer because they didn't think of them beforehand. The meta isn't just this thing people stumble upon, it's a fundamental part of game planning and yes they absolutely will protect it. 

there are unintended metas such as the spin to win exploit, but most metas are absolutely a design choice, not something people just figure out by group think. 

So, the fact that Gara is the meta for tridolon-hunting was intended? Or Limbo? Or was it the Chroma Trin Volt that was intended? 

I mean if what you are claiming is that DE said "hey let's make it so that they need x damage type, during x phase" then yeah they obviously intended that. If you mean that they theorycrafted the exact team-player-warframe-mods, and then told us to only play that, then no. That's not sensible. 

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

5 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So, the fact that Gara is the meta for tridolon-hunting was intended? Or Limbo? Or was it the Chroma Trin Volt that was intended? 

I mean if what you are claiming is that DE said "hey let's make it so that they need x damage type, during x phase" then yeah they obviously intended that. If you mean that they theorycrafted the exact team-player-warframe-mods, and then told us to only play that, then no. That's not sensible. 

Okay. You tell me, waht do you think is their process for creating content?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Okay. You tell me, waht do you think is their process for creating content?

Kinda just did, didn't I? 

[Lolacrayola]

You can play anything you want. This does not mean other people will understand what your role is or how to play with you, nor does it mean other people will want to play with you.

Eidolon meta is what it is because its the most well documented strategy for 4 random people to successfully capture multiple hydrolysts in one night without saying a single word to each other and with minimal prep time. I can join any meta group 10 minutes before the start of night and I reasonably know what everyone else is going to do and when they are going to do it without having to ask.

You can break limbs on Gaurda if you want but you need to explain how it works. If you have a trinity in your group you need to tell them when to bless, because if they bless at the wrong time, you don't get the damage bonus from your passive. Garuda playstyle isn't something many people are familiar with because its not as common or well documented as Chroma playstyle.

For shield breaking, you can literally use anything you want because only operator void damage can hurt shields. Void strike + unairu wisp are meta because they are damage multipliers. It is the fastest way to turn small numbers into big numbers.

Volt, Harrow and Trinity are meta because of the utility they provide. Volt shield doubles your operator's crit damage numbers. Covenant gives you immunity to damage and status effects so your void strike buddies don't have to slot rolling guard if they need frame time during energy spike (to place electric shields for example). When covenant expires it gives a crit buff to your limb breaker so they break limbs faster. Trinity has an instant cast, 100% full heal to guarantee the safety of the lures.

So if you want to run Limbo instead of Harrow, you need to explain how when and where to shoot and where to be to not get mag procced. If you don't run Trinity, you need to think of a way to keep the lures safe. If you don't run Volt, you need to math out how your group damage is going to work without 2x crit multiplier. I've seen 2x man 6x3s with no Volt, Trinity or Harrow so it can be done. The question is do you have the patience to recruit people who care to go off meta? Are you willing to join a clan of like minded people to play off meta comps? Do all of you have the patience to fail a bunch of times until everyone understands the strategy and how to execute it?

You can complain all you want about the design of eidolon hunts lending itself to a narrow range of viable strategies, but all you've done is express dissatisfaction with the way things are. You haven't proposed a better way of designing eidolon hunts or a different way for how to play them. You haven't said anything constructive or actionable at all. So what do you expect DE and the people who enjoy meta eidolon hunts to do about that?

Edited September 22, 2019 by Lolacrayola

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

23 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Kinda just did, didn't I? 

No you didn't. You assumed that somehow magically content goes through a creation process without any planning on how the player is supposed to engage with it, freeing the community to naturally find its own way...

So I'll ask again. What do you imagine is their creative process to produce content? How exactly do you imagine something goes from an idea to an in game event? Art is a process, you seem to feel like you know, so, let's here it? How do you get from an idea in your head to a stable, balanced, tested, final release candidate?

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

No you didn't. You assumed that somehow magically content goes through a creation process without any planning on how the player is supposed to engage with it, freeing the community to naturally find its own way...

🤔

8 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I mean if what you are claiming is that DE said "hey let's make it so that they need x damage type, during x phase" then yeah they obviously intended that. If you mean that they theorycrafted the exact team-player-warframe-mods, and then told us to only play that, then no. That's not sensible. 

☝️

Might help if you actually read what you quote and respond to. 

 

[Autongnosis]

Le 20/09/2019 à 05:16, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx a dit :

Actually I'm being told this build is better for Rhino's raaar... But chroma is what I have.

Just remove Serration and put something else in and you're good 😉

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

🤔

☝️

Might help if you actually read what you quote and respond to. 

 

So what you're saying is you literally have no idea and you're just wasting my time. Thanks for clearing that up, moving on. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

So what you're saying is you literally have no idea and you're just wasting my time. Thanks for clearing that up, moving on. 

Nah. What I indicated is that you seem to lack the ability to read, comprehend and think logically. 

It's pretty easy nonsensical to think that they could or should theorycraft every possible scenario in advance of making an enemy like the Eidolons, orbs or even the Wolf to determine that some extremely specific set of gear needs to be used, and then continuously force us to adhere to that, despite many changes being implemented in the interim. 

If on the other hand you believe that it is a much more general approach, like "okay so well have one phase where you can only deal damage with void powers, and another where these specific types of damage will have the most effect, it will deal damage in these ways and you need to have these secondary conditions to ensure that you capture instead of kill", then that makes a lot more sense. 

Then we, the players start to test and find ways to maximize our efficiency. Someone notices that this specific amp does more damage and we all migrate to that option. And someone else figures that specific weapons give us the highest damage numbers, tests it and confirms. Someone else then tests different weapons in that class and sees that their damage is higher and says hey these 3 are pretty good, so everyone starts to use those. It's a small step to notice that crit is king, so we tweak for that until we find the best mods. And erg by erg we squeeze the very most out of it and share our observations, until everyone can just look up the "best" ways to get it done with a few keystrokes. 

That's where the meta comes from. In every single game. It's why we get speed runners, why we saw people finding ways to do their WOW raids with fewer than a full group. Disagree all you want, but you will just continue to be wrong. 

[nslay]

Wow, Leyzar even took it to Eidolons and did some crazy damage with it. But all those crazy red numbers and one shots may be due to the bug that was recently patched. It's nice that there is another option beyond snipers.

Spoiler

 

 

[belanya]

Le 20/09/2019 à 04:32, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx a dit :

A new meta is upon us. 

Far from a new meta, the meta ll always be in favor of hitscan weapons.

[HappyPlecostomus]

Fairly new to the game mechanics. I have a Daikyu riven with Heat and Multishot. How should I build with it? Or should I reroll it? 

[MPonder]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

Wow, Leyzar even took it to Eidolons and did some crazy damage with it. But all those crazy red numbers and one shots may be due to the bug that was recently patched. It's nice that there is another option beyond snipers.

  Hide contents

 

 

That's a RIVEN(cc+ms+neg) daikyu + harrow buff (+50% additive critical chance) dmg. OP said stuff about no riven Daikyu working, which was just because Gauss patch broke eidolons dmg resistence.

And again, if it is projectile, it is not good for eidolon right now. Unless you have something hitscan pretty strong.

EDIT: KKKKKK, he is even using 2x arcane avenger, maybe on those hunts that people take years to take out shield they actually proc. Such a meme. Also, really feel bad that there is no good weapon to proc heat on Mirage, so she could easily be a good pick as DPSer. Penta with its aug is ok, but then, you need to use secondaries weapons, which are worst in dmg than snipers.

Edited October 6, 2019 by MPonder

[(PSN)Dishinshoryuken]

On 2019-09-21 at 3:22 AM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Greeeeeat, because DE just can't have anything that upsets the meta.... Oh well, I suspect over all with Dragon Fursuiter prime doing what he does my bow will still get the job done. 

As to why use a bow I just like the lower zoom and also there just feels something.. Right... About hunting giants with a bow and a guy in dragon armor...

This is fundamentally why the weapon balancing is broken in this game.. Too much has to be worthless so that one or two things can shine. I have a rubico prime I can do the same thing with. The bow is mechanically harder to use than snipers, but are also weaker than snipers.... And have the same ammo economy as snipers. Which begs the question, if you are not going to make bows worth using, why have bows? This really isn't an issue of mitigating powercreep at this point, it's just deliberately choosing what weapons you want actually have a use in the game and letting everything else be mastery fodder. I've been working on my MR lately. Something I have discovered, while people swear anything in the game can be potentially great if you dedicate enough time to it... Almost nothing outside of the narrowly defined, and highly deliberately designed meta is worth bothering with. You can sink 8 forma on a weapon and have it be "good enough" for high level content.... Or you can sink two forma on something like the pox and it will destroy everything you throw it at. 

They need to think long and hard and figure out other ways to make every game mode have more than one way to approach it, having bows become a competitor to snipers would have been a great thing to do....provide options instead of everyone bringing lanka and rubico prime to every single fight....

Oh well, it's their game, if they want it to grow steadily more stale as interest slides that's certainly their right. Right now, at least on console, I will see the same names and faces over and over for weeks at a time......... That means that there's a tiny pool of people actually playing.... That's not good.Just about any other live game, running into the same random person 8 times in one week simply does not happen. I'm kinda worried for them. 

The thing about WARFRAME is that the players do not want to have variety as much as they say they do. This has been shown many a time over the years the game has been out. DE can make weapons that take using certain combos and style while they out in one powercreep weapon, and the players will take the powercreep weapon and call all the rest mastery fodder.

It happened with the Tonkor and Soma Prime, it happened with the Arca Plasmor and Kit guns. It happened with Zaws and Rivens.  Players want efficient AOE power more than customized to use a non META weapon. And most times, they have to go with the META to be able to do something in a mission. Not many players enjoy seeing the enemies get killed by others to get the game done as quickly as possible.

DE knows what it has to do to keep players playing...and giving them a power creeped weapon does the job more than balancing a cache of weapons over a few episodes. Because of either FOMO or wanting to feel like a god walking outweighs figuring out which weapons feel "right" in a players hands to them.

[DrakeWurrum]

People are getting mad about that? It's effective.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Sigh

Aight looks like i'm farming froma again

[HugintheCrow]

On 2019-09-22 at 1:40 AM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

For a developer to release content without having put serious balancing thought into the method it should be engaged with would be unforgivably incompetent.

You literally described DE.

[(XBOX)Kuljack]

This isn’t anything new. The daikyu outperformig snipers has been a discussion amongst people of culture for the past month. 

Get a riven and you will oneshot the head just fine.

[(XBOX)Kuljack]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Dishinshoryuken said:

The thing about WARFRAME is that the players do not want to have variety as much as they say they do. This has been shown many a time over the years the game has been out. DE can make weapons that take using certain combos and style while they out in one powercreep weapon, and the players will take the powercreep weapon and call all the rest mastery fodder.

It happened with the Tonkor and Soma Prime, it happened with the Arca Plasmor and Kit guns. It happened with Zaws and Rivens.  Players want efficient AOE power more than customized to use a non META weapon. And most times, they have to go with the META to be able to do something in a mission. Not many players enjoy seeing the enemies get killed by others to get the game done as quickly as possible.

DE knows what it has to do to keep players playing...and giving them a power creeped weapon does the job more than balancing a cache of weapons over a few episodes. Because of either FOMO or wanting to feel like a god walking outweighs figuring out which weapons feel "right" in a players hands to them.

Yeah, like the Mutalist Quanta. People always say it’s trash, but then you show them it’s mechanic how it’s good and then they’re like Ughh that’s a lot of work to be good.

Casting two bubbles and shooting through them, lots of work. I have faith in our future work force.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

9 hours ago, HappyFishxas said:

Fairly new to the game mechanics. I have a Daikyu riven with Heat and Multishot. How should I build with it? Or should I reroll it? 

I wouldn't reroll it without knowing more. To kill an eidolon your two top damage types will be radiation and cold, if you're going to build a chroma or chroma p, you'll skip the damage like serration and focus purely on multi shot and elements. With that riven I'd go pure radiation and leave off primed cryo. You might add a fire rate mod in but I don't. With a properly built chroma you shouldn't have to fire twice as long as your first shot hits. Just so you know, this bow will demand a solid 5 forma for chonk prime hunting. 

 

Does the riven do anything else? Have negative effects like slower fire rate? 

Edited October 6, 2019 by (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx

[Klaleara]

On 2019-09-21 at 10:45 PM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

So, the fact that Gara is the meta for tridolon-hunting was intended? Or Limbo? Or was it the Chroma Trin Volt that was intended? 

I mean if what you are claiming is that DE said "hey let's make it so that they need x damage type, during x phase" then yeah they obviously intended that. If you mean that they theorycrafted the exact team-player-warframe-mods, and then told us to only play that, then no. That's not sensible. 

Lots of developers do this with their game.

I wouldn't be surprised if DE did.  This isn't just a hobby, this is literally their job.  They are some of the foremost experts in the world when it comes to this stuff.  Sometimes its to force people to switch to new stuff to keep the grind going, sometimes its to have people try new things.  A lot of psychology is put into this stuff.

Granted, I'm sure there are times when they are surprised by what we find, but it is probably more rare than one would think.

[HappyPlecostomus]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

I wouldn't reroll it without knowing more. To kill an eidolon your two top damage types will be radiation and cold, if you're going to build a chroma or chroma p, you'll skip the damage like serration and focus purely on multi shot and elements. With that riven I'd go pure radiation and leave off primed cryo. You might add a fire rate mod in but I don't. With a properly built chroma you shouldn't have to fire twice as long as your first shot hits. Just so you know, this bow will demand a solid 5 forma for chonk prime hunting. 

 

Does the riven do anything else? Have negative effects like slower fire rate? 

I have seen people mentioning about leaving serration out when using a Chroma P, guess I have more homework to do. 

No, it's just pure Heat and Multishot.