Why is there a need for an operator when the warframe is alive?

[Cephalon_Saryndipity]

3 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

Because using a skinny teenager as operator makes the game more appealing to... skinny teens!? Something like that #marketingcrap

p.s.

Before anyone starts and gets offended by "skinny" teens, they now have Hyldryn #fattiescount

Hilly isn't fat, though. She's built like a sterotype of a Russian or Slavic farmer's wife. Works hard, plays hard, can crack your skull with her thighs. 

[Crasharr]

Muscular? How many muscles you need around the abdomen? Hyldryn is surely muscular, but also fat in places that are noticed...

 

[Loza03]

Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

Such a thing is yet to happen (kinda borderline with Umbra) maybe in the future , you never know.

Perhaps a FPS mode where you dont use mods just pure instinct and unmodded weapons as all your powers are coming from the void..

Umbra demonstrates Warframes have no innate void association. He's been disconnected from Tenno for Millenia - possibly never had a transference partner. Yet he can use his powers just fine.

 

 

In answer to the main question, it's theming. Simply put Warframe explores themes of transhumanism and dualism. Warframes and Operators help in both departments.

Warframes are, and always have been, explicitly inhuman. Even with their human roots, they have no real 'faces', no expression. Even Umbra, the most human, is still not much more than a beast. Despite their fancy shiny shell, underneath they're at best zombies, at worst literal robots made of meat. Tenno, meanwhile, are explicitly 'more than human' - they're empaths, ascendant humans, spiritually enlightened. Despite all that, they lack a lot of the physical elements of human strength - in the Second Dream they can barely walk. Even once they gain a degree of independence, they still are mostly focused on their spiritual strength made manifest in void energy. Alone, one is a monster, the other a demon. Together, however, they are very human - beyond human in a way that's more tangible than the Operators are. Quite literally, a good Operator/Frame combo is practically unstoppable, and ultimately, very human.

 

In terms of dualism, that can be seen once the Sentients are thrown in the mix and by taking the above transhumanism into account as 'one being'. Consider what Warframes are: Warframes. Tenno are born from the void, and their 'more than human' spirituality does tend to cause a lot of death and misery. Warframes are, like I said, machines and tools of war. Both are forged in destruction, built for conquest and pain. The Sentients, meanwhile, are creators, terraformers. They exist to bring new life and to foster and grow old life. Whereas the Tenno release destructive energy, the Sentients absorb destructive forces and change themselves to endure it. The Tenno are ultimate destroyers able to rip apart anything with enough time, the Sentients ultimate creators able to weather any storm and build anew. The Tenno and Sentients form a dualistic pair representing these two equal and opposite forces.

However, creation and destruction are, ultimately, the same force. To acquire the materials to create, you must destroy - to paint on a blank canvas is to effectively destroy that blank canvas and replace it with a painted one. The Sentients cannot reconcile that dualism, and become consumed by hatred and rage. Realising that their creation will bring the destructive Orokin, they lash out, ironically becoming destroyers themselves. Meanwhile, the Tenno can reconcile this. The empathic Operators and the physical Warframes (themselves forming a dualistic pair of mind and body) are able to reconcile themselves in that destruction can preserve creation, as the Operators were shown familial love through their parents and Margulis, and pass this on to the Warframes, and ultimately, serve to protect others. The Sentients start good and become evil, whereas Operators and Warframes both start evil, and through empathy and care, ultimately manage to become a force for good.

 

Removing the Operator removes a lot of the transhuman themes, since you'd need to remove much of the 'less than human' elements of the Warframes. They'd need to be made human enough to understand what the Operators do. You'd lose a lot of that nice theming of the mind and body reconciling, and from there a lot of the dualism aspects - the Operators foster their power through empathy and kindness, which enables their power in the Warframes. That in turn works in service to the dualistic themes, and the idea that, just as it is possible to 'live long enough to see yourself become the villain', that it is possible to "overcome your evil nature with great effort"? If the Warframes don't have that evil nature, that the Operators help them overcome after overcoming it themselves, that loses a lot of impact.

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

Muscular? How many muscles you need around the abdomen? Hyldryn is surely muscular, but also fat in places that are noticed...

 

Weightlifting champions often have a lot of fat. It's a naturally strong body shape, because it's got both a lot of energy reserves and a lot of muscle to use that energy. One without the other wont work as well. The idea of the super well-defined muscles being super-strength is somewhat of a recent concept.

[Crasharr]

Players also have no funny bones, what-the-wall-of-text was that!?

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, Crasharr said:

Players also have no funny bones, what-the-wall-of-text was that!?

My one?

That's in response to the OP, and an examination of why the Operators are needed for the game's story, not a response to you.

Edit: Well, that other reply was productive.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Loza03

[NocheLuz]

Although, the Operator are capable of controling the Warframe when they are in close range. The Transference Bolt is still needed for Operator to control the Warframe from a much longer range (maybe, infinity?).

Also, your question had already been answered by the Orokin, who first build the Warframe (Golem, not the Warframe with Armor like we have now). They just take them to the Warzone and just let's them do their things. The Orokin think they can control them, but they cannot. The Golem just went berserk and killed everything. The more they try to control them the more they go uncontrollable. Until one Golem stumbleupon the Tenno... Somehow, they can clam them and even instruct them to do things.

[--DSP--Jetstream]

the true answer is to sell cosmetics

[(PSN)Dishinshoryuken]

The reason is it is a two way profit for DE.

 If they give the Frames some semblance of self, people will get upsett that they have been piloting people with no say, will be upset that all the time they out into their Void Demon meant they were grooming a slave master, and all the trees and outfits and time spend using different Amps would be wasted materials and progress. Even though all the proof that the Frames are people who have been wiped clean (for the most part) is there in-game, most have accepted that we are the operator and our Warframes are just Infested Flesh. In this day and age of Cancel Culture, changing that up would more than anything lose a large player base and DE needs players.

If we go along with the idea that there is no one in the Frames, players that enjoy the Void Demons can now be free to play as a void being that is them. This sits better in the minds of all who have played the game quest up til this as it means they are using toys to fight battles instead of people chosen for something that they may have volunteered for or been forced into. We want to be seen as good in managing our dates, even though we know what Cephalons are, what we see in the Derelict are just Infested meat in Warframe Cryopods, after witnessing the Sword out of the Frame, seeing Frames land flat even though the players complained about the Frames looking around when teleported by Commanders, the Voice of Chroma, the Ghost of Revenant, the bed in the I Room, and anything else that suggests the Frames are anything beyond flesh puppets.

I would enjoy playing the game as the Awakens Frames tossingnoff the yokes of being enslaved by the Orokin using Void Demons. I would like to walk like an Acolyte with no Void Demon sitting in a chair never having to feel the sting of combat as they can teleport to safety at 2 points. I would thrive in a game where I am Simon Belmont or Alucard running around instead of knowing there is some child sitting at a table using me to find weapons and hidden areas.

But sadly, without losing most players, that ain't this type of game sir

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

59 minutes ago, VoidGhost said:

Thanks for your reply WhiteMarker.What if the monsters became aware of their state and chose to control the mutation.Monsters do have a mind too.

 

ECHOS OF THE UMBRA

^ this was a method proposed by de , but did not get good community feedback so its on hold for now 

 

 

[VoidGhost]

Loza03 thanks for the time you spent contributing to this discussion.Do you believe the fusion of the warframe and the operator would be more interesting than discovering the way to control the powers of the warframe from the role of the mutated human?

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

27 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Actually...

 

I'm aware of it. I actually named my Helminth after it. Ophiocordyceps. Not enough spaces for the full name. Lol

But it still requires something else to move. 🙂

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

It's not alive like that. False premise. Next.

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

we are the operator...

[VoidGhost]

Dishinshoryuken thanks for the time you have spent contributing to this topic.What do you suggest in case the DE awaken the warframes and the operator is not needed?

I believe that the evolution of controlling the tecnocyte virus is the way Operators would have a reason to remain in the game

[Loza03]

15 minutes ago, VoidGhost said:

Loza03 thanks for the time you spent contributing to this discussion.Do you believe the fusion of the warframe and the operator would be more interesting than discovering the way to control the powers of the warframe from the role of the mutated human?

The latter I've already stated that I don't believe is as interesting.

Neither is fusing the two. Like I said: Dualism. Dualism requires two entities. Just as the Tenno as a whole have a dualistic relationship with the Sentients, the Operator and Frame hold a dualistic relationship with themselves - the mind and spirit in the Tenno, and the body of the Warframe.

Simply put, getting rid of the Operator in any way damages the theming of the game.

[(PSN)Dishinshoryuken]

25 minutes ago, VoidGhost said:

Dishinshoryuken thanks for the time you have spent contributing to this topic.What do you suggest in case the DE awaken the warframes and the operator is not needed?

I believe that the evolution of controlling the tecnocyte virus is the way Operators would have a reason to remain in the game

Instead of having 4 powers, we would have access to 8, have an Exalted mode where our powers and durability would be hightened to another level, and our new enemies would be the Void Demons that finally become the Man in the Walls agents to tear open then Void and place it as the center of our universe.

We would then finally meet the Ice Pirates which would be the characters from that other game DE was working on. This would give players the choice of either using Warframes and the 3rd person view or using the Ice Pirates and a First Person view.

We would finally get to the real origins of the Orokin and learn that they were helped by the original Helminth virus owner to create the Frames and that is who our ships Infested room has been talking to all this time. We would eventually fight all the Deluxe skins that are under the Orokin command as the Orokin attempt to make a move to work with the Man in the Wall. Sentinels will join with the Frames and a war like nothing else would be seen as the Infested in the Derelict and Eris have a Civil War as well. The female that is the Reaper head would be freed to become the Queen Mind and we would learn that she was once Nekros wife. Phorid would be revealed to be the Infested that has been amassing Infested versions of the bosses and launches them against the system while the Eris mass can no longer stand all these different versions and sends out more Zealots to cleanse the unpure Infested and bring new flesh into the congregation.

......

Or maybe we find all the Kubrows and Kavats that were given to Lotus on a planetoid being watched over by Margilus?

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Warframes are at least sapient, if not sentient, and all that's needed is a power source for them to act on their own. No, this isn't just restricted to Umbra type frames, as the climax of the Second Dream quest had your frame act on their own after having been impaled and gotten in contact with sentient energy. This is a big moment that the dev intentionally designed like that to make you ask questions about whether your frame is truly capable of life. Earlier drafts of the story board for the quest that were shown solidify that theory.

Spoiler

 

On a related note, the devs had also planned for frames to be able to do combo movies with Operators leading up to the PoE release, and even if nothing like that has made it into the game yet, the fact that it was talked about speaks volumes about how the devs see the frames narratively.

Spoiler

 

To answer your question. From a practical point of view, Tenno cannot be infested, which is how warframes are initially created. From a philosophical PoV, Operators were introduced to the game to explore themes of mind-body dualism, embodied cognition and similar concepts. Game mechanically, they act as a narrative device to tie all those different warframes a player owns together.

Edited October 9, 2019 by AuroraSonicBoom

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 hours ago, VoidGhost said:

why is there a need for an operator when the mutated person which we call the warframe is alive.

Because that's the direction they chose to take the story and I don't think any other direction was ever in the cards in hindsight.

While I don't disagree with your stance, I can also understand why DE has the story going in the direction they do and respect the decision even though I detest the Operator.

3 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

If you sad my cat was capable to using logic, I would have doubts in my previous statement. But "most animals"? You lost the argument there. Dogs are not sapient. Dont put those ugly mutts on the same level of cats.

I think most cat people know that cats are sapient.

• They tear your furniture up when you are too far away to do something about it.
• They speak in a pitch designed to mimic that of a baby.
• They bond with the strongest personality in the house.
• They don't eat poo.

Dogs are awesome too... But they don't see much wrong with eating poop though.

[MagPrime]

4 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

You are confusing Sapience with Sentience.

Sapience is the ability to make decisions using logic, knowledge and experience.

Sentience is the ability to feel emotions, experience them.

If you sad my cat was capable to using logic, I would have doubts in my previous statement. But "most animals"? You lost the argument there. Dogs are not sapient. Dont put those ugly mutts on the same level of cats.

Then Crows and Dolphins are sentient

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

If you sad my cat was capable to using logic, I would have doubts in my previous statement. But "most animals"? You lost the argument there. Dogs are not sapient. Dont put those ugly mutts on the same level of cats.

Um... dogs on average have almost twice as many neurons as cats. More neurons means more memories and more processing power, for lack of a better term. For comparison, that's about as many as Racoons, which are famously pretty bright.

Source (and generally speaking much more detail):

Spoiler

Jardim-Messeder, D., Lambert, K., Noctor, S., Pestana, F. M., de Castro Leal, M. E., Bertelsen, M. F., ... & Herculano-Houzel, S. (2017). Dogs have the most neurons, though not the largest brain: trade-off between body mass and number of neurons in the cerebral cortex of large carnivoran species. Frontiers in neuroanatomy, 11, 118.

So, uh... in general, dogs are smarter than cats, or certainly have the potential to be overall. Also consider how well dogs can learn things compared to cats.  I love my cats dearly, but they just behave like they're superior. Moving the litter tray made my kitten forget it ever existed.

[Daliena06]

1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Warframes are at least sapient, if not sentient, and all that's needed is a power source for them to act on their own. No, this isn't just restricted to Umbra type frames, as the climax of the Second Dream quest had your frame act on their own after having been impaled and gotten in contact with sentient energy. This is a big moment that the dev intentionally designed like that to make you ask questions about whether your frame is truly capable of life. Earlier drafts of the story board for the quest that were shown solidify that theory.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

On a related note, the devs had also planned for frames to be able to do combo movies with Operators leading up to the PoE release, and even if nothing like that has made it into the game yet, the fact that it was talked about speaks volumes about how the devs see the frames narratively.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

To answer your question. From a practical point of view, Tenno cannot be infested, which is how warframes are initially created. From a philosophical PoV, Operators were introduced to the game to explore themes of mind-body dualism, embodied cognition and similar concepts. Game mechanically, they act as a narrative device to tie all those different warframes a player owns together.

This, right here. There's also Rhino Prime's codex which implies that ol' Golden Codpiece was rip and tearing his way through the laboratory (and every scientist and Dax soldier that got in his way) but stopped when the narrators hid in the room where the Zariman children were kept. At that point, that the Tenno could keep the Warframes more-or-less in check was just a theory held by one researcher who, in their own words, wouldn't have been believed by anyone unless he proved it in action.

And at this point, the Tenno still needed their fancy transference apparatus (we don't get the ability to make do without until much, -much- later down the road after all), so unless that guy also built one of those in secret to plug one of the Zariman survivors into.. Sure sounds like Rhino Prime was capable of acting on it's own, as well as capable of thought to the point that it didn't want to endanger the Zariman children as it stopped at the doorway despite being fully capable of turning the two researchers into a fine red mist if it wanted to.

[Kaotyke]

36 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

So, uh... in general, dogs are smarter than cats, or certainly have the potential to be overall.

 

[Loza03]

7 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

[Kaotyke]

5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

 

Spoiler