CC's place in Warframe

[Ceadeus]

I see a lot of people saying "Crowd control matters when the enemies are harder" but I really don't agree with that. The idea that crowd control is needed when enemies are harder is subverted by 2 things; 1. If the enemies are harder, that typically just means you turn to scaling damage instead of raw damage (IE: armor stripping), crowd control still doesn't fix anything since the enemy is still alive and well and blocking your progress in most mission types that people regularly play. 2. There really isn't any value in a CC'd enemy except as a window to damage them, which obviously means that it'd be better if you could just do the damage outright in the first place and remove the extra step from the equation. In an objective based context CC is helpful as long as it removes things that block you from your objective, but Warframe is only loosely objective based, about 95% of the game is just frantic slaughtering of everything in sight and that 5% objective time is basically just there as a filler plot to tell you WHY you're slaughtering them. When you factor in that loot and grind is the lifeblood of the larger gameloop, a CC'd enemy becomes even less valuable than his dead counterpart because you get no loot and no experience to help your grind, so even in objective based game modes, it's still better overall to kill than to CC.

I really don't think that a "CC king" will ever have any value in Warframe unless they radically revalue the way their game is set up, which honestly Warframe is one of few games primed to do that (even if it would be a potentially large undertaking). Warframe is a game about space NINJAS, yet it constantly forgets the "ninja" part in favor of just throwing in a shock & awe cannon room clearer. There's very little value in Warframe for any kind of actual "ninja" like playstyle that doesn't just loop back to extra damage potential. In my opinion, for CC to be valuable in Warframe, Digital Extremes would have to revamp CC gameplay at its core from less of a "This is just giving you an opening to kill them." into a "CC is your alternative choice to killing them". CC would have to become a much more potent option to even begin to scratch the benefits that nuke frames bring.

For example, in my envisionment of this, CC for Vauban might mean that instead of tesla's that try to damage and kill, they maybe just lock an enemy to a surface and prevent them from fighting or moving at all. Now, "you still wouldn't get any loot," you might say, and to that I expand that there would be an additional change to the endscreen of the mission where you gain either the same or maybe even more rewards than you would have for killing them for every enemy you incapacitated (in that much more "ninja" style than just mass murder); a system similar to this one would both value CC as opposed to killing, as well as prevent any "exploits" of just not killing anything in the mission as you wouldn't get credit for anything not properly CC'd.

Now there are 2 issues that would come with this implementation; 1. Hardlocked enemies are obviously also much easier for damage frames to kill and you could argue that any combination of a CC and a damage frame would be "OP", but to this I simply say that when the alternative is that both frames need to be strong enough to simply outright kill the enemy anyway to be viable, is it really any more OP? 2. CC could obviously need a complete revisit of how it functions in many cases so that it still has value against things like bosses or nullifiers without completely opening them up to cheese as well. So far this is the only big fault that I've been able to come up with for this kind of revamp, but I assume that like everything else it would eventually settle into its own kind of balance over time.

tl;dr CC probably won't ever be good.

[VentiGlondi]

Do you know why CC used to be meta back in like Update 8 or so?

It's not because enemies were harder. In fact they used to be weaker back then.

It was because the players dealt way less damage giving enemies more time to fight back. So since they had enough time to kill you, the best way to counter that was disabling them.

So let's fix this quote

25 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Crowd control matters when the enemies are harder survive long enough to fight back.

Your idea is basically "Let's make CC another damage type"

[Voltage]

DPS is a form of CC. At this point anything that does not kill is weak and impractical (hi Nyx and Vauban!). You control a crowd by completely obliterating them. See the comment from @VentiGlondi. CC only mattered when enemies had time to react and fight back, or the objective was completely irrelevant to damage (Trials/Interception/etc). The best form of CC will always be DPS in these times until mission dynamics, objectives, and enemy behavior is completely changed. The CC meta is long gone, and giving players more rewards for not killing will promote perma CC and sitting around with less engaging gameplay. This was a common complaint of Trials. 

We have scaling melee damage, scaling sniper rifle damage, scaling Warframe powers, and more at our disposal in the arsenal. Operation: Hostile Mergers, a Corpus event, proved that you can take setups to deal with billions of health.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Voltage

[NekroArts]

1 hour ago, Ceadeus said:

In my opinion, for CC to be valuable in Warframe, Digital Extremes would have to revamp CC gameplay at its core from less of a "This is just giving you an opening to kill them." into a "CC is your alternative choice to killing them". CC would have to become a much more potent option to even begin to scratch the benefits that nuke frames bring.

That means turn all CC into killing abilities, no openings, no disablings, just kill. And this is not me putting my words in your mouth, it's me telling you what will really happen if it goes through.

As of right now, all of our content/gameplay are within realm of getting killed really fast; for CC to be consider as alternative they must do damage close to what our nukes/guns can do if not equal. In the perspective of our typical gameplay, it'll be seen as unbalanced as the frame has both good CC and reliable damage. Basically a version of Saryn/Equiniox but have CC of that of Vauban's 3 and 4. The only place for this to not be seen as unbalanced is if we have content that exist outside of our typical gameplay i.e. where enemy scaling gets out of hand. 

But then this will lead into the problem that those nuke will be left behind because we would have frames that can do that with reliable CC. For pure/ mostly CC abilities to be reliable now, we need situations where having CC is ideal. DE tried to this with Noxs and Juggernaut and it kinda worked. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by NekroArts

[Ceadeus]

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

Do you know why CC used to be meta back in like Update 8 or so?

It's not because enemies were harder. In fact they used to be weaker back then.

It was because the players dealt way less damage giving enemies more time to fight back. So since they had enough time to kill you, the best way to counter that was disabling them.

So let's fix this quote

Your idea is basically "Let's make CC another damage type"

No.  Because we can break what you're saying down back into "CC is important when enemies are harder".

"Surviving longer" in Warframe is just equivalent to "being harder" they have more health or more armor, or something to that effect.  That's all it is.  So no, we're still back to scaling damage outclassing CC in all cases simply because of the way Warframe's gameplay loop is designed.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Voltage said:

DPS is a form of CC. At this point anything that does not kill is weak and impractical (hi Nyx and Vauban!). You control a crowd by completely obliterating them. See the comment from @VentiGlondi. CC only mattered when enemies had time to react and fight back, or the objective was completely irrelevant to damage (Trials/Interception/etc). The best form of CC will always be DPS in these times until mission dynamics, objectives, and enemy behavior is completely changed. The CC meta is long gone, and giving players more rewards for not killing will promote perma CC and sitting around with less engaging gameplay. This was a common complaint of Trials. 

We have scaling melee damage, scaling sniper rifle damage, scaling Warframe powers, and more at our disposal in the arsenal. Operation: Hostile Mergers, a Corpus event, proved that you can take setups to deal with billions of health.

This is exactly my point.  I acknowledge that CC would likely need to be reworked and not simply have the duration of every CC in the game be extended and call it good.  And yes, DPS is technically a form of CC, but if we're talking in the distinct separations of pure CC and DPS abilities, then CC will continue to never see any value as anything other than extra steps to get to the DPS.  Like I already told Venti, CC doesn't suddenly gain a place when enemies are weaker or stronger and it never will with the game's current design, CC will always be a flashy way to present or set up DPS.

The one part of this comment I disagree with is...

19 minutes ago, Voltage said:

giving players more rewards for not killing will promote perma CC and sitting around with less engaging gameplay.

I addressed this in the original post that yes, just tacking on rewards for not killing enemies would be broken, but if the system were revamped to check "Was this enemy CC'd and properly neutralized?" then you can begin to add rewards for THAT instead of killing because that still requires the player to be engaged and interacting with the enemy just like they would if they were using damage abilities.  The trick of the matter is figuring out how to gauge when an enemy is "completely" CC'd.  Obviously players shouldn't be able to just 1-tap immobilize the entire mission if a revamp of this scale were to take place, but at the same time the CC shouldn't be so tedious and weak that it has almost no use rather than just killing them sort of like what we have right now.

Some abilities might need to be completely reworked or replaced, some might just need a "threshold" of either enough damage done to the enemy or enough consecutive CC's applied before they're fully "neutralized".  But you can definitely have engaging gameplay with CC if it's actually done correctly.

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Ceadeus

[stormy505]

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

Do you know why CC used to be meta back in like Update 8 or so?

Because raids were a thing, map blind mirage basically made the raid a joke because unlike almost everything in Warframe, killing wasn't the objective.

[Ceadeus]

2 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

That means turn all CC into killing abilities, no openings, no disablings, just kill. And this is not me putting my words in your mouth, it's me telling you what will really happen if it goes through.

Not true.  You can still have smaller CC's like we have now that DO just provide openings for things like finishers or at least finisher damage and you can also have more large-scale permanent type CC's if that's supposed to be the frame's focus.  So yes you are quite literally putting words in my mouth, I never suggested EVERY CC in the game should be made to be a complete neutralizer.  And while you could technically consider it a "kill", I think that's just picking at pointless semantics for the sake of it, obviously CC can't have any real value over DPS if you ALWAYS need to use a DPS ability to actually finish the fight, so it would be asinine to think that in attempting to create world where CC actually has real value on its own that you should STILL need to use a DPS ability afterwards.

5 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

As of right now, all of our content/gameplay are within realm of getting killed really fast; for CC to be consider as alternative they must do damage close to what our nukes/guns can do if not equal. In the perspective of our typical gameplay, it'll be seen as unbalanced as the frame has both good CC and reliable damage. Basically a version of Saryn/Equiniox but have CC of that of Vauban's 3 and 4. The only place for this to not be seen as unbalanced is if we have content that exist outside of our typical gameplay i.e. where enemy scaling gets out of hand. 

Except again you've taken it to the complete extreme.  Not once did I say that all frames should have room nuking capabilities AND amazing CC or anything even reminiscent of that idea (not that it would matter in this case being as you're effectively making CC and killing two alternative paths to the same end).  CC doesn't have to deal any damage at all to be considered alternative to DPS, it simply has to neutralize the enemy and receive value for neutralization instead of elimination, which is what Warframe is currently missing.  Warframe currently offers you absolutely nothing for CC'ing an enemy and not killing them.  If you were to CC an entire mission so expertly that any enemy in sight never even got to move, you'd still only receive rewards as if there were never even enemies in the mission to begin with, and THAT is the problem with trying to find value in CC based Warframes/abilities (the ones that don't then just set up DPS combos obviously).

9 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

But then this will lead into the problem that those nuke will be left behind because we would have frames that can do that with reliable CC. For pure/ mostly CC abilities to be reliable now, we need situations where having CC is ideal. DE tried to this with Noxs and Juggernaut and it kinda worked. 

This just returns to the "CC is valuable when the enemies are harder" argument which we've already established isn't true.  I have multiple setups that can tear both a Nox and a Juggernaut to shreds in seconds and they have absolutely nothing to do with CC, just like how CC'ing them alone won't actually bring any value since they'll still be alive and you won't get any rewards from it, at best you get a chance to run away and hope they don't follow you, so again returning to the "they might as well have never existed" comment.

[HugintheCrow]

Just now, Ceadeus said:

This just returns to the "CC is valuable when the enemies are harder" argument which we've already established isn't true.

Just now, Ceadeus said:

isn't true

On the contrary, we established it's 100% true. In the first comment of this thread, lol.

1 hour ago, VentiGlondi said:

Do you know why CC used to be meta back in like Update 8 or so?

It's not because enemies were harder. In fact they used to be weaker back then.

It was because the players dealt way less damage giving enemies more time to fight back. So since they had enough time to kill you, the best way to counter that was disabling them.

We had a CC meta.

It was a CC meta SPECIFICALLY because enemies were harder (relative to our power back then).

This literally proves that if enemies were harder we would need CC, in turn disproving you.

[stormy505]

1 hour ago, Ceadeus said:

Crowd control matters when the enemies are harder"

Kinda. You have to reach a point where enemies can damage you before you kill them. Then you ether mix cc and damage to not die or you use invisibility.

The solution to extremely high levels isn't "lol, just get more damage" it's mixing ways to stay alive with damage.

[Ceadeus]

4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

On the contrary, we established it's 100% true. In the first comment of this thread, lol.

If you would actually read any of it you would see it isn't.  CC is not more or less valuable based on the difficulty of the enemy if the requirement is still just to deal damage anyway.  Obviously the better choice will still just be to take frames with better damage outputs even if they have little to no CC capability and cut out the middleman.

4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

We had a CC meta.

It was a CC meta SPECIFICALLY because enemies were harder (relative to our power back then).

This literally proves that if enemies were harder we would need CC, in turn disproving you.

No, we had a CC meta because Trials had their own set of rewards unrelated to killing the NPCs that people actually wanted, so rather than beat their heads against mind-numbingly overtuned enemies they didn't need to fight, people just CC locked them because it didn't matter.  On the other side of this, normal missions typically have very mediocre rewards and are only supplemented by the rewards you get from killing the enemies.  Again, if all the CC is, is a setup into DPS, then the value is not in the CC itself.

So no, you've proved nothing except the fact that you haven't been following along.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Ceadeus

[Marine027]

The best thing i see we could do is use what Guild Wars 2 has as example i say, a resistance bar you can break with CC, that stuns them after wards or apply the CC, if it breaks the enemy gets a damage resitance debuff and takes more damage, so CC is still useful on stronger enemys, bosses should have such as example and minor mini bosses.

Normal enemies still normaly affected of course, jsut special enemies to maek CC frames not feel useless like against abiltiy immune enemies. This way makign them more useful and maybe even more useful if combined since the CC Debuff could do more damage then raw damage could ever do.

Just a mere example of my side.

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, Ceadeus said:

Obviously the better choice will still just be to take frames with better damage outputs even if they have little to no CC capability and cut out the middleman.

Except literally everyone going for super long survivals takes at least some form of cc or defense, making you completely wrong.

2 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

No, we had a CC meta because Trials

Lmao, I'm talking way before trials, I'm talking old void.

3 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Again, if all the CC is, is a setup into DPS, then the value is not in the CC itself.

Ok, so you literally have no idea what you're talking about, good you clarified that. CC is specifically a way for DPS to be safe, that's what it exists for.

Next time you try discussing game design, try actually learning about it.

[Ceadeus]

On 2019-10-12 at 8:29 PM, HugintheCrow said:

Except literally everyone going for super long survivals takes at least some form of cc or defense, making you completely wrong.

Because they take massive damage if left unchecked.  And we return to the fact that a CC'd enemy still isn't valuable to you.  They only gain any value once they're dead, either for the sake of progressing the objective or for actually getting not garbage rewards for your mission completion.  Yes, you could take a full CC squad into a survival and lock down the entire map and never have to kill anything, but the rewards you get once the mission are over would be utterly abysmal and not at all worth the time, devaluing any idea that CC alone is useful.  CC in the current gamestate is always just a stepping stone to DPS.

On 2019-10-12 at 8:29 PM, HugintheCrow said:

Lmao, I'm talking way before trials, I'm talking old void.

Even in old void we really didn't have a CC meta?

On 2019-10-12 at 8:29 PM, HugintheCrow said:

Ok, so you literally have no idea what you're talking about, good you clarified that. CC is specifically a way for DPS to be safe, that's what it exists for.

Next time you try discussing game design, try actually learning about it.

That's exactly the problem you can't seem to get through your thick skull.  We know CC is a way for DPS to be safe, that's PRECISELY WHY people are talking about it and frames like Vauban being "CC king", because the CC itself would not be important if you instead just took the proportional power of the CC and dumped more damage into the frame instead.  Imagine if instead of Ember's fire proc's immobilizing enemies, she did % health damage because fire.  Immediately vastly more useful than what the CC offered.

[Ceadeus]

11 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

The best thing i see we could do is use what Guild Wars 2 has as example i say, a resistance bar you can break with CC, that stuns them after wards or apply the CC, if it breaks the enemy gets a damage resitance debuff and takes more damage, so CC is still useful on stronger enemys, bosses should have such as example and minor mini bosses.

Normal enemies still normaly affected of course, jsut special enemies to maek CC frames not feel useless like against abiltiy immune enemies. This way makign them more useful and maybe even more useful if combined since the CC Debuff could do more damage then raw damage could ever do.

Just a mere example of my side.

That is what most people value CC for is just as an opening to damage, which is fine.  My proposition here was trying to find a way to make CC itself more valuable without the need to follow it up with damage and/or a kill.  So while I like your resistance bar idea, I'd probably have a different end for it than just more damage.  Thanks for sharing though!

[Zekkii]

There's no better CC effect than dead.  This is less of an issue with CC itself, and more of an issue with DPS abilities giving insane value with nothing to punish them.  So for CC to be relevant, you'd need to either threaten the lives of DPS frames or significantly reduce the value of DPS abilities.

[HugintheCrow]

2 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

snipped

CC IS a stepping stone for DPS. That ISN'T bad. You think it is, and that's where your arguments fall, because you're wrong.

Your problem is that you seem to have forgotten we're playing a shooter.

We shoot people dead to win. CC makes shooting people easier, that's what it is for.

There is no need nor reason for CC to be some sort of "alternative to DPS".

And if you really think "moar damage" is always better even in a game based around killing stuff, you have NO idea about game design, and you have no qualifications to be trying to come up with "fixes" for any game whatsoever.

Come back after you do your homework.

[Madway7]

 

7 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Even in old void we really didn't have a CC meta?

The only one I can think of was using Mirage to blind and stunlock the map in void interception

[Ceadeus]

Just now, HugintheCrow said:

CC IS a stepping stone for DPS. That ISN'T bad. You think it is, and that's where your arguments fall, because you're wrong.

I never said that was "bad".  Nice job making stuff up to try and save your completely empty argument though.

1 minute ago, HugintheCrow said:

Your problem is that you seem to have forgotten we're playing a shooter.

The game is also marketed as "space ninjas" so tell me what is "ninja" about running in with a machine gun and spraying down everything that moves without a hint of stealth?  Clearly we aren't fitting all the stereotypes here.  More worthless BS'ing.

2 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

We shoot people dead to win. CC makes shooting people easier, that's what it is for.

Which is fine, except if that CC doesn't make shooting people as easy as just pressing a button to kill them, then it's not that good, and if you have a CC based frame that doesn't do that, it tends to spark discussion about how you can make CC more valuable on its own, crazy how that works, it's almost like if you'd actually put even one nanosecond of rational thought into it you could see that you're arguing a point that absolutely nobody here is even talking about because you refuse to actually read and understand a post before making some asinine comment thinking you know anything about anything.

4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

There is no need nor reason for CC to be some sort of "alternative to DPS".

To better fit the "ninja" narrative?  To make CC focused frames more valuable without needing someone else to follow up?  For diversity and interesting gameplay mechanics and choices?  For funsies?  There was no "need or reason" for the game to ever switch from Melee 1.0, but we did.  Why?  Because it's more fun and more interesting.  That's it.

6 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

And if you really think "moar damage" is always better even in a game based around killing stuff, you have NO idea about game design, and you have no qualifications to be trying to come up with "fixes" for any game whatsoever.

 

6 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

a game based around killing stuff

Don't even need a comment to show why this was stupid and wrong.

6 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Come back after you do your homework.

??? You say that like you cited something but all you did was reiterate that you quite literally don't know what anybody here is talking about.

[NekroArts]

2 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Not true.  You can still have smaller CC's like we have now that DO just provide openings for things like finishers or at least finisher damage and you can also have more large-scale permanent type CC's if that's supposed to be the frame's focus.  So yes you are quite literally putting words in my mouth, I never suggested EVERY CC in the game should be made to be a complete neutralizer.  And while you could technically consider it a "kill", I think that's just picking at pointless semantics for the sake of it, obviously CC can't have any real value over DPS if you ALWAYS need to use a DPS ability to actually finish the fight, so it would be asinine to think that in attempting to create world where CC actually has real value on its own that you should STILL need to use a DPS ability afterwards.

Why would anyone would use a small CC with DO even with an opening of some sort when they could just *snap* and they're just gone? This is literally the reason why CC is so dead. I agree you never suggested every cc to be a complete neutralizer, but my concern is that  your idea doesn't actually help or it goes into a different direction from what you want it.

It's like Dog Days. Everyone could afk with no points and the missions defaults to the players winning. DE implemented bonus pearls via kills to encourage being active; however, it didn't go the way they had hope. You still had people afking and players that would kill had to compete with others for kills, resulting in those players to go solo. So not only did it not fix the issue, but it created another. Whatever your "CC is your alternative choice to killing them" is, it either still remains behind or it gets onto nukes level.

25 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Except again you've taken it to the complete extreme.  Not once did I say that all frames should have room nuking capabilities AND amazing CC or anything even reminiscent of that idea (not that it would matter in this case being as you're effectively making CC and killing two alternative paths to the same end).  CC doesn't have to deal any damage at all to be considered alternative to DPS, it simply has to neutralize the enemy and receive value for neutralization instead of elimination, which is what Warframe is currently missing.  Warframe currently offers you absolutely nothing for CC'ing an enemy and not killing them.  If you were to CC an entire mission so expertly that any enemy in sight never even got to move, you'd still only receive rewards as if there were never even enemies in the mission to begin with, and THAT is the problem with trying to find value in CC based Warframes/abilities (the ones that don't then just set up DPS combos obviously).

.I take it to the extreme because we exist in the extreme. You have to create a situations where the damage can't do well without CC to help. Either we get crippled or we get enemies that can resist the extreme; and that's assuming no matter how extreme we can get it won't result in the way we have it now.

33 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

This just returns to the "CC is valuable when the enemies are harder" argument which we've already established isn't true.  I have multiple setups that can tear both a Nox and a Juggernaut to shreds in seconds and they have absolutely nothing to do with CC, just like how CC'ing them alone won't actually bring any value since they'll still be alive and you won't get any rewards from it, at best you get a chance to run away and hope they don't follow you, so again returning to the "they might as well have never existed" comment.

Exactly, we don't actually have something that is remotely harder than what we can handle. It's always been us finding extreme ways that brush offs DE attempt for harder enemies. For something to be hard that we can't kill without CC, yet will still be a problem because it has reduced CC duration and is a threat, it would have to exist beyond what's current. And my fear of that is that it gets into new higher-meta territory or we get content that is unreasonable.

[Ceadeus]

Just now, NekroArts said:

Why would anyone would use a small CC with DO even with an opening of some sort when they could just *snap* and they're just gone? This is literally the reason why CC is so dead. I agree you never suggested every cc to be a complete neutralizer, but my concern is that  your idea doesn't actually help or it goes into a different direction from what you want it.

Small CCs generally WOULD be more just for setting up some kind of DPS abilities, similar to some of the smaller CC abilities we have now like blinds and ragdolls and stuff of that nature.  My idea (with a little explanation help from @Marine027) is more along the lines of CC abilities that are intended as a kill alternative being able to "weather" an enemy down until they can be fully CC'd or outright fully CC them if they're weak enough, same way that damage abilities work now.  So while yes, it would still effectively be the same as taking a damage frame just with a different "healthbar" to fight so to speak, it would also mean that CC focused frames like Vauban could actually compete and get comparable rewards to damage frames without needing them to follow up on his abilities.

That's really all the intent of this is, is 'How can we make playing a CC frame solo still just as engaging and rewarding as playing a room clearing frame?'

4 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

It's like Dog Days. Everyone could afk with no points and the missions defaults to the players winning. DE implemented bonus pearls via kills to encourage being active; however, it didn't go the way they had hope. You still had people afking and players that would kill had to compete with others for kills, resulting in those players to go solo. So not only did it not fix the issue, but it created another. Whatever your "CC is your alternative choice to killing them" is, it either still remains behind or it gets onto nukes level.

There will always be AFK leechers who try to get rewards for doing nothing.  There's nothing you can do about that that will ever fully solve that problem because what is considered "AFK" is ambiguous; is it being completely immobile and unresponsive?  Is it just not getting kills?  Is it pressing 1 button over and over?  The list goes on.  There's nothing I can really do to prevent that, but hopefully the accompanying "rework" of certain abilities that would follow with this revamp would eliminate any ability for people to just 1-tap an entire mission, at least in any capacity that you couldn't already do with a damage frame.

However, I do think my option would "solve" the problem of players having to compete for kills, as I envision the rewards for "neutralized" enemies being totaled at the end of a mission and thus being granted to the whole squad.

8 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

Exactly, we don't actually have something that is remotely harder than what we can handle. It's always been us finding extreme ways that brush offs DE attempt for harder enemies. For something to be hard that we can't kill without CC, yet will still be a problem because it has reduced CC duration and is a threat, it would have to exist beyond what's current. And my fear of that is that it gets into new higher-meta territory or we get content that is unreasonable.

Precisely.  That's why I'm not proposing to simply make CC stronger or weaker until it can compete with whatever piece of content, and instead make it both scale and end in a similar result to what damaging abilities do now.  Enemies may not suffer the "full effects" of an ability off of one cast from a CC ability just like they might not die from one cast of a damage ability, but if you stack enough of them, they should eventually both be "taken care of" without you then needing to switch from your CC to a DPS alternative.

[3rdpig]

I like CC as an option. When the enemy is blind, stunned or, even better, laying flat on their back they're not attacking me, which opens up more options than just killing them. I can perform a finisher, take out minions, perform a warframe ability, reload, or just leave them for another teammate to kill while I unass the area. Your method of "just doing more damage faster" offers none of those things.

Don't waste your time replying to this post. I'm right, you're wrong and you know it.  😉

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, 3rdpig said:

I like CC as an option. When the enemy is blind, stunned or, even better, laying flat on their back they're not attacking me, which opens up more options than just killing them. I can perform a finisher, take out minions, perform a warframe ability, reload, or just leave them for another teammate to kill while I unass the area. Your method of "just doing more damage faster" offers none of those things.

Don't waste your time replying to this post. I'm right, you're wrong and you know it.  😉

Literally everything about this post was wrong from the implied effect of CC to what my stance on the subject was but okay, go ahead and think that buddy
👌

  Ignorance is bliss I guess

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

There's a reason you don't see endurance runs going into the thousands with just DPS frames.  CC is a way to increase your DPS in some situations because remember you can't deal damage effectively if you're dead outside saryn's spore ability still spreading and ember WoF still continuing.  People also like to have their own playstyles, because if everyone was just in it for the best dps it would be quite tiresome seeing 4 saryn squads everywhere.  

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

There's a reason you don't see endurance runs going into the thousands with just DPS frames.  CC is a way to increase your DPS in some situations because remember you can't deal damage effectively if you're dead outside saryn's spore ability still spreading and ember WoF still continuing.  People also like to have their own playstyles, because if everyone was just in it for the best dps it would be quite tiresome seeing 4 saryn squads everywhere.  

This is true.  However this is more a problem with ridiculous scaling than an actual indicator that CC alone has good value (another problem with the game).  That's what I'd like to fix is making CC itself a better game mechanic and playstyle rather than CC just being the bandaid fix to poor scaling or the stepping stone to a DPS alternative.

[Diavoros]

CC used to matter since if you think about it, most of the mission modes in Warframe involve defending an objective, defense, mobile defense, rescue, hijack, excavation, some sabotages and arguably interception as well, you don't want the enemy to take back those towers. But then came a shift on how to deal with defending objectives and that is "if enemy is dead there is no need to defend anything, duh!" which makes some missions faster. CC still holds merit but dead enemies just seem more comfortable for most players.