CC's place in Warframe

[Loza03]

CC and nuking do the same thing. They prevent anything from touching you.

 

CC is only irrelevant because nuking cuts out the middleman of players having to kill. Either way, nobody's playing when everything's a corpse or effectively a statue.

[Ceadeus]

Just now, Diavoros said:

CC used to matter since if you think about it, most of the mission modes in Warframe involve defending an objective, defense, mobile defense, rescue, hijack, excavation, some sabotages and arguably interception as well, you don't want the enemy to take back those towers. But then came a shift on how to deal with defending objectives and that is "if enemy is dead there is no need to defend anything, duh!" which makes some missions faster. CC still holds merit but dead enemies just seem more comfortable for most players.

Exactly.  This is a prime example of what I was talking about with the game being 95% kill and 5% filler plot.  The actual objectives aren't very important in pretty much every gamemode except maybe spy, other than that, you will need a way to deal with enemies, and being as killing is often both faster and rewards loot and XP whereas just CC'ing does not, CC quickly loses value.

[birdobash]

Let's face it, the only reason damage is so much more relevant than CC nowadays is because more potent damage has been added to the game in recent years, while CC has stayed almost relatively the same. Even just 3 years ago, the strongest form of reliable AOE damage in the game was a resonating quake Banshee which nowadays barely does anything in comparison to meta damage dealers like Saryn or equinox. Even equinox was not as strong back then, not because she had any significant changes, but because with so many other damage dealers on the team and better aoe weapons/mods it is a lot easier to stack damage onto equinox's maim.

Does this entail nerfing of damage overall? Perhaps, but I feel like there are better solutions than just "nerf it". Currently the only reason damage is so relevant is because every single game mode incentivizes killing enemies rapidly and dis incentivizes stopping enemies, such as defense for time, survival for life support, disruption for keys, etc. It also does not help that all the things that stop damage like nullifiers or ability immune enemies normally are also immune to CC, think of the demolysts in particular where CC straight up doesn't work at all on them yet damage does.

That then begs the question, if damage steals the role of CC, then CC should fill the gap where damage does not work, this might be a stretch, but I think CC should be able to effect enemies such as nullifiers or demolysts, maybe even bosses, as damage straight up gets ignored by these units that are so dangerous, CC should fill the role to lock down these more dangerous units to give you time to do your "lesser" damage to them.

Edited October 12, 2019 by birdobash

[Ceadeus]

3 minutes ago, birdobash said:

Let's face it, the only reason damage is so much more relevant than CC nowadays is because more potent damage has been added to the game in recent years, while CC has stayed almost relatively the same. Even just 3 years ago, the strongest form of reliable AOE damage in the game was a resonating quake Banshee which nowadays barely does anything in comparison to meta damage dealers like Saryn or equinox. Even equinox was not as strong back then, not because she had any significant changes, but because with so many other damage dealers on the team and better aoe weapons/mods it is a lot easier to stack damage onto equinox's maim.

Does this entail nerfing of damage overall? Perhaps, but I feel like there are better solutions than just "nerf it". Currently the only reason damage is so relevant is because every single game mode incentivizes killing enemies rapidly and dis incentivizes stopping enemies, such as defense for time, survival for life support, disruption for keys, etc. It also does not help is that all the things that stop damage like nullifiers or ability immune enemies normally are also immune to CC, think of the demolysts in particular where CC straight up doesn't work at all on them yet damage does.

That then begs the question, if damage steals the role of CC, then CC should fill the gap where damage does not work, this might be a stretch, but I think CC should be able to effect enemies such as nullifiers or demolysts, maybe even bosses, as damage straight up gets ignored by these units that are so dangerous, CC should fill the role to lock down these more dangerous units to give you time to do your "lesser" damage to them.

I agree with a lot of this.  While we both have different avenues we'd like to go with it, it's pretty easy to see that the game has problems and it definitely suffers from a lack of "creative difficulty" in favor of just bigger numbers and invincibility stages.

[nslay]

4 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

It was because the players dealt way less damage giving enemies more time to fight back. So since they had enough time to kill you, the best way to counter that was disabling them.

Enemies that take longer to kill is considered harder. It doesn't matter if players did less damage or if enemies have more HP/Armor and players do more damage. It is the same situation!

Now, how do we know this is what is meant by harder? DE implicitly defines (through its own game!) "difficulty" by increasing armor and HP. This is "harder".

Yes, it would be ideal if AI was improved (and I think they should do this!) and we had a more complicated definition of difficulty but under the current simplistic difficulty system in Warframe (and many other games, like Diablo 3), "harder" is more enemy EHP and higher enemy damage.

We are saying the same thing here. Enemies that take a long time to kill and can fight back are rendered easier with CC. This is what is meant by "harder." Where I disagree with you is that it doesn't matter if it's Update 8 and players did less damage or if its the current iteration of the game and you're in a 3 hour survival. Completely irrelevant. DE implicitly says either of these is "harder" because enemies have relatively (key word!) more EHP than your weapons/frame can manage.

[VentiGlondi]

45 minutes ago, nslay said:

Enemies that take longer to kill is considered harder. It doesn't matter if players did less damage or if enemies have more HP/Armor and players do more damage. It is the same situation!

lotsoftext

If the enemies can actually kill you, then it is actually harder, because the player ends up being in danger for an extended period of time, resulting in more opportunities to fail.

The problem is that if it takes too long to dispatch an enemy, it becomes frustrating. An enemy needs to stay alive long enough to be a threat to the player, but if it's too long then even if it's a challenge it's not an enjoyable one.

 

If the enemies pose no threat while being alive then it's just a slog. That's what it was like fighting level 1000 enemies with Vauban and Trinity back in the old days.

[Cubewano]

This would be such a thoughtless afk'able solution to the balance problems in this game, we don't need more alternate methods of nukes, we need to disperse the overwhelming power factor the current ones have and bring them down to a manageable level that allows for a range of playstyle options, especially within a group setting since this game still seems to believe itself co-op oriented.

[clxrffdman]

Personally the only way I think most of the game could be kept the same while incentivizing CC is this.

1. More enemies have specific "weak points" preferably on the back or side of enemies. (Ex: Ambulas armor plates, etc) that must be broken to prevent high levels of damage resistance. (To avoid nuking)

2. Specific forms of CC apply specific damage buffs to different weapon types. (Kind of like Vauban's passive but in an alternate way)

3. Enemies with more energized animations, and AI, such as faster movement, rolling, etc. (But nothing too crazy to avoid it being too much dev work)

4. The removal of mass range AOE melee, nerfing of the stealth multiplier, rework of certain status types. (Current changes to heat proc, melee 3.0 changes potentially)

5. Simply higher level content. I wish they didn't change the initial Arbitration starting level from 80 to 60. We need enemies with high enough level (start around level 100-150). Create endless nodes of this level that reward players with randomly generated kitgun/zaw parts (riven rng levels) with unique attributes (not just elemental types).

That *might* work?

[Proslackernifty]

11 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

tl;dr CC probably won't ever be good.

I grouped with a limbo that had about 10 second duration on his 4th, and because he couldn't cc, we had to revive him 3 times (arbitration).  He got right back up, and started spinning to win every time.  Finally we just left him for dead and extracted.

I think the moral of the story is that crowd control makes a lot of frames viable and can contribute to the squad.  It's also useful for protecting stuff like excavators, or defense buddies.  I don't always play crowd control frames, however.  There are times when it isn't necessary.  I honestly prefer a more diverse squad makeup, and I don't want to be in a squad of four people all playing inaros with an atterax.  I guess that's the meta if you really want it, but I'll pass.

 

[ShortCat]

13 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

CC will continue to never see any value as anything other than extra steps to get to the DPS. 

But that is the whole purpose of CC. Crowd Controll is ment to prepare and ease an encounter, by stopping opposition from killing your before you kill them - CC will protect your team and set up the enemies for an easy dispatch. This is no rocket science.

1. One reason why CC is suboptimal today, is because our damage is soo high (thanks power creep), that in most situation enemies do not live long enough to threatem us. If enemies can survive longer -> they get a chance of killing us -> we need CC as protection and set up. If you stay long enough, you will reach a point where CC becomes relevant.
2. The other reason is increased amount of ability immune or dispelling enemies. Direct damage is often dealt in an instant, so that dispell feature is ignored; self buffinging ignores immunity entirely. CC ont he other hand is crippled and limited.
3. The last reason is a shift in Frame desing: today every new Frome or even reworks introduce a cheap DR skill, so that in combination with other mods like Arbitration Frames become durable and can easely manage otherwise dangerous situations. Inaros or Gara do not need CC to survive in a Sortie and can be played half asleep without being punished for sloppy mistakes, lack of movement or slow reaction time.

There is no need to reinvent CC, DE just designed its purpuse out of the game. Scale back our damage; revise ability immunity; make Frames less self-efficient and CC will become relvant again.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Why do some people always treat everything in a black and white manner?

 

You have all these things to use on the fly if needed. If you dont need it at that particular instance, dont use it and just kill and move on with your day.

 

If a particular group of friends or something wants to try out a "traditional" MMO team that consists of a healer, CC, tank and dps then that's their friggin right to use all these frames, abilities, and weapons as they see fit.

 

Why else is all this stuff in the game.....???

 

 

[Ceadeus]

12 hours ago, Cubewano said:

This would be such a thoughtless afk'able solution to the balance problems in this game, we don't need more alternate methods of nukes, we need to disperse the overwhelming power factor the current ones have and bring them down to a manageable level that allows for a range of playstyle options, especially within a group setting since this game still seems to believe itself co-op oriented.

AKA you haven't actually read or understood any of the comments in this thread.  Thanks for your benevolent input oh all knowing great one, now please leave so people who can actually read can talk.
 

 

9 hours ago, clxrffdman said:

Personally the only way I think most of the game could be kept the same while incentivizing CC is this.

1. More enemies have specific "weak points" preferably on the back or side of enemies. (Ex: Ambulas armor plates, etc) that must be broken to prevent high levels of damage resistance. (To avoid nuking)

2. Specific forms of CC apply specific damage buffs to different weapon types. (Kind of like Vauban's passive but in an alternate way)

3. Enemies with more energized animations, and AI, such as faster movement, rolling, etc. (But nothing too crazy to avoid it being too much dev work)

4. The removal of mass range AOE melee, nerfing of the stealth multiplier, rework of certain status types. (Current changes to heat proc, melee 3.0 changes potentially)

5. Simply higher level content. I wish they didn't change the initial Arbitration starting level from 80 to 60. We need enemies with high enough level (start around level 100-150). Create endless nodes of this level that reward players with randomly generated kitgun/zaw parts (riven rng levels) with unique attributes (not just elemental types).

That *might* work?

None of this incentivizes CC.  The goal here is not "Make the content so obnoxious people are forced to use CC all the time" and that's all these suggestions do.  Not only that, but you're still ignoring the fact that all of this is just a lead-up to DPS, you're not making CC more valuable you're just making the game more tedious and grindy than it already is.

5 hours ago, ShortCat said:

But that is the whole purpose of CC. Crowd Controll is ment to prepare and ease an encounter, by stopping opposition from killing your before you kill them - CC will protect your team and set up the enemies for an easy dispatch. This is no rocket science.

No that's only one use of CC.  Thanks for not reading any of the posts.

5 hours ago, ShortCat said:

1. One reason why CC is suboptimal today, is because our damage is soo high (thanks power creep), that in most situation enemies do not live long enough to threatem us. If enemies can survive longer -> they get a chance of killing us -> we need CC as protection and set up. If you stay long enough, you will reach a point where CC becomes relevant.
2. The other reason is increased amount of ability immune or dispelling enemies. Direct damage is often dealt in an instant, so that dispell feature is ignored; self buffinging ignores immunity entirely. CC ont he other hand is crippled and limited.
3. The last reason is a shift in Frame desing: today every new Frome or even reworks introduce a cheap DR skill, so that in combination with other mods like Arbitration Frames become durable and can easely manage otherwise dangerous situations. Inaros or Gara do not need CC to survive in a Sortie and can be played half asleep without being punished for sloppy mistakes, lack of movement or slow reaction time.

There is no need to reinvent CC, DE just designed its purpuse out of the game. Scale back our damage; revise ability immunity; make Frames less self-efficient and CC will become relvant again.

All of this again just amounts to "CC is useful when enemies are harder" which still isn't true.  Nerfing the crap out of damage will not make for interesting gameplay and will in fact only annoy a MASSIVE chunk of the playerbase.  You would need such an overarching rebalance of not only the difficulty of the game but all of the rewards and gametypes in it too for these kinds of solutions to ever be even close to enjoyable.
 

[chairogom]

tbh. game was more fun in the old days when cc was important.
Because teamwork was necessary.

[Goodwill]

The reason why CC is irrelevant in Warframe is because enemies can no longer overwhelm you in any sense of the word. As people have mentioned, CC is a way to prevent enemies from getting to the player or objective. But with parkour 2.0, you can outrun every enemy making the need to slow them down non-existent and of course killing them. It's easier to get a breather in Warframe because you can jump up to a place where most enemies cannot reach you or just simply high-tail it out of there.

CC is relevant in other horde games because you cannot always outrun the horde. They will catch up to you and you have to deal with horde advances with whatever tools the game provides. Certain items/weapons or environmental hazards. Contrary to Warframe as mentioned above.

CC also works in fighting games as a way to ensure you can keep assaulting the opponent without giving them the footing to counter. Look at fighting games that have aerial, ground, or stagger combos. Again, this means nothing in Warframe because enemies are either dead, or the game lacks the mechanical environment for those reactive opponent states.

CC works in certain shooters due to ammo being scarce. Forcing the player to make every shot count. The benefit for CC is to ensure less ammo is wasted. In Resident Evil 4, sometimes it was more beneficial to simply shoot the legs of the enemy rather than trying to kill them. Moot in Warframe because even without Ammo Mutation, a lot of guns have an absurd ammo pool contrary to what could be physically acceptable for that gun or player to hold.

Simply put, Warframe and DE have simply not developed the game with CC in mind. Every update makes CC more irrelevant than before.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Goodwill

[ShortCat]

2 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

No that's only one use of CC.  Thanks for not reading any of the posts.

I will repeat myself, goal of CC is to support your wellbeing or offense, give you more time or easy execution. What you suggest with the "incapacity" mechanic is nothing more than deleting enemies with a fancy animation, which is the same goal as killing. You suggest to transform CC into damage. On top of that, you admit that you cannot fully imagine how it should work. Your expectations of CC are misguided.

2 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

All of this again just amounts to "CC is useful when enemies are harder" which still isn't true...

Well, points 1-3 describe why CC is not trandy atm, precisely because the game does not require CC due to low difficulty; or that there is no incentive "not to kill" in any of the game modes. Thus, I said and explained how DE designed CC out of the game. CC is dead, because there is no ground for it, not because the base idea is lacking.
Should this "isn't true" relate to your suggestion - read above.
Furthermore, all the complaints towards nerfs exist, because people focus too much on numbers in the UI, but not their meaning. It gets especially dangerous, when one and the same person asks for "more difficulty" but dismisses any and all nerfs.

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by ShortCat

[Cubewano]

8 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

AKA you haven't actually read or understood any of the comments in this thread.  Thanks for your benevolent input oh all knowing great one, now please leave so people who can actually read can talk.
 

I think you're the only one not doing any actual reading/understanding, but if you want to speak otherwise please do feel free explain what I've missed or failed to understand to get such a judgmental response, which is the proper way to move forward such a conversation, not this dramatic how dare thy have a different opinion drivel. 

[Cubewano]

7 hours ago, chairogom said:

tbh. game was more fun in the old days when cc was important.
Because teamwork was an option.

ftfy (everything in this game is a be the carry of be carried design nowadays)

[FireSegment]

On 2019-10-13 at 12:34 AM, Ceadeus said:

1. If the enemies are harder, that typically just means you turn to scaling damage instead of raw damage (IE: armor stripping), crowd control still doesn't fix anything since the enemy is still alive and well and blocking your progress in most mission types that people regularly play

Buddy ... you wasn't around back when Torid is king, and Vauban+Nova is a must have in any T4 Survival, or any endurance runs that encounter lvl 60+ enemies. Scaling damage wasn't always an option (also a melee strike that deal 1k damage for melee used to be consider imba)

 

I think you would be benefit from distinguish these two: 

1 - Crowd Control (CC) - aka stop enemies from killing you.

2 - Debuff - make enemy easier to kill.

To make it a bit easier to imagine, think of Viral prod effect on enemy as debuff  and Radiation, Blast/Heat/Electric prod effect as CC. Viral prod make enemy much easier to kill but they are completely free to kill you, Blast prod stop them from doing anything, while radiation and cold prod make it less likely that they would target you, or effectively land a shot. (toxin and slash prod is just bonus damage, and Conditional Overload add a layer of debuff to every status effect)

Typically, most waframe's skills have both aspects and usually emphasis one over the other, exclude the raw damage output type of skill. All the decoys skill are CC in nature, Mesa's Shooting Gallery is CC with damage buff, Saryn's skin ... thing skill is also CC, and Khora's dome is basically a CC skill with an big AoE. almost all the skill that you think of as outright killing enemies have some aspect of CC in it.

Now, back to the topic, if you can just outright kill the enemy, may be with some debuff to make it faster like viral prod, then sure, do that, no argument here. But when the mission got harder, much much harder, being one-shot without any chance to react is a common thing with frames don't have option to tank it. So

On 2019-10-13 at 12:34 AM, Ceadeus said:

crowd control still doesn't fix anything since the enemy is still alive and well

 

On 2019-10-13 at 12:34 AM, Ceadeus said:

a CC'd enemy becomes even less valuable than his dead counterpart because you get no loot and no experience to help your grind

 

On 2019-10-13 at 12:34 AM, Ceadeus said:

tl;dr CC probably won't ever be good.

duh ... it fix you not dying in the process of killing them. In any context that enemy can kill you before your damage output is enough to kill everything , CC will always have it use. (and you better kill everything before they even noticed you without CC, oh wait ... that call steath...)

 (also, off topic but the main point of Vauban rework is that DE adding scaling damage to his kits while smooth out his existed CC, they are not trying to CC meta again)

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-10-12 at 12:17 PM, stormy505 said:

Because raids were a thing, map blind mirage basically made the raid a joke because unlike almost everything in Warframe, killing wasn't the objective.

Raids were way later. In the missions he was talking about (before Raids) a Max Blind Range Mirage would have been kicked out of the squad for stalling everything and making the mission take twice as long

In old endless defense you wanted Vauban or Nyx or Loki, those are the ancient CC Kings

[Ceadeus]

8 hours ago, ShortCat said:

I will repeat myself, goal of CC is to support your wellbeing or offense, give you more time or easy execution. What you suggest with the "incapacity" mechanic is nothing more than deleting enemies with a fancy animation, which is the same goal as killing. You suggest to transform CC into damage. On top of that, you admit that you cannot fully imagine how it should work. Your expectations of CC are misguided.

No, you're speaking strictly in the terms of CC as we know it in Warframe's current state, which entirely defeats the point of the whole discussion.  Yes, it is an alternate way to deal with enemies, yes it is effectively like killing them without the need to actually kill them.  I don't know if you've ever played a videogame but a lot of times there are choices simply for the sake of choices.  Also, I never said I "couldn't" imagine it, I simply didn't make any presumptions about the specifics of what the best way to completely overhaul a mechanic of the game would be.

8 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Well, points 1-3 describe why CC is not trandy atm, precisely because the game does not require CC due to low difficulty; or that there is no incentive "not to kill" in any of the game modes. Thus, I said and explained how DE designed CC out of the game. CC is dead, because there is no ground for it, not because the base idea is lacking.
Should this "isn't true" relate to your suggestion - read above.
Furthermore, all the complaints towards nerfs exist, because people focus too much on numbers in the UI, but not their meaning. It gets especially dangerous, when one and the same person asks for "more difficulty" but dismisses any and all nerfs.

CC is designed out of the game, precisely why I'm here proposing this hypothetical way to bring it back into the game and yet you keep trying to throw back what we already have in the game as if that's some definitive proof of anything.

2 hours ago, Cubewano said:

I think you're the only one not doing any actual reading/understanding, but if you want to speak otherwise please do feel free explain what I've missed or failed to understand to get such a judgmental response, which is the proper way to move forward such a conversation, not this dramatic how dare thy have a different opinion drivel. 

Well let's firstly point out that absolutely nowhere in any single letter of any of my posts did I suggest that this idea would amount to "more nukes" and that was entirely just something you made up out of thin air, then let's go to how your first priority was to insult the idea as a whole before you start with the "I'm so rational, you're the one getting mad at other peoples' opinions!" BS.

 

1 hour ago, FireSegment said:

Buddy ... you wasn't around back when Torid is king, and Vauban+Nova is a must have in any T4 Survival, or any endurance runs that encounter lvl 60+ enemies. Scaling damage wasn't always an option (also a melee strike that deal 1k damage for melee used to be consider imba)

... Literally been playing the game longer than you have on this account alone.  (2nd account btw)  So let's relax with the "You weren't around!" talk.  I was, I saw it all.  CC still wasn't "king".  CC did the same thing it did now; bandaid fix the garbage scaling, that's it.
 

 

1 hour ago, FireSegment said:

I think you would be benefit from distinguish these two: 

1 - Crowd Control (CC) - aka stop enemies from killing you.

2 - Debuff - make enemy easier to kill.

To make it a bit easier to imagine, think of Viral prod effect on enemy as debuff  and Radiation, Blast/Heat/Electric prod effect as CC. Viral prod make enemy much easier to kill but they are completely free to kill you, Blast prod stop them from doing anything, while radiation and cold prod make it less likely that they would target you, or effectively land a shot. (toxin and slash prod is just bonus damage, and Conditional Overload add a layer of debuff to every status effect)

Typically, most waframe's skills have both aspects and usually emphasis one over the other, exclude the raw damage output type of skill. All the decoys skill are CC in nature, Mesa's Shooting Gallery is CC with damage buff, Saryn's skin ... thing skill is also CC, and Khora's dome is basically a CC skill with an big AoE. almost all the skill that you think of as outright killing enemies have some aspect of CC in it.

Now, back to the topic, if you can just outright kill the enemy, may be with some debuff to make it faster like viral prod, then sure, do that, no argument here. But when the mission got harder, much much harder, being one-shot without any chance to react is a common thing with frames don't have option to tank it. So

On 2019-10-12 at 12:34 PM, Ceadeus said:

crowd control still doesn't fix anything since the enemy is still alive and well

 

On 2019-10-12 at 12:34 PM, Ceadeus said:

a CC'd enemy becomes even less valuable than his dead counterpart because you get no loot and no experience to help your grind

 

On 2019-10-12 at 12:34 PM, Ceadeus said:

tl;dr CC probably won't ever be good.

duh ... it fix you not dying in the process of killing them. In any context that enemy can kill you before your damage output is enough to kill everything , CC will always have it use. (and you better kill everything before they even noticed you without CC, oh wait ... that call steath...)

 (also, off topic but the main point of Vauban rework is that DE adding scaling damage to his kits while smooth out his existed CC, they are not trying to CC meta again)

You're completely missing the point here.  CC is not "valuable" if it still requires damage to follow it up.  If you replace the proportional value of any CC ability in the game with damage potential, it immediately becomes an objectively better ability.  And also, this post has absolutely nothing to do with what DE is "trying" to do with Vauban, this post is just here as part of the "CC king" discussion as a whole.
 

[FireSegment]

53 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

And also, this post has absolutely nothing to do with what DE is "trying" to do with Vauban, this post is just here as part of the "CC king" discussion as a whole.

that's why i said "off topic" at the beginning of the sentence ...

53 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

CC is not "valuable" if it still requires damage to follow it up.  If you replace the proportional value of any CC ability in the game with damage potential,

One simple counter argument is the difference between this current version of Ember's World on Fire and the previous version - the one that don't scale in damage and doesn't shrink over time. The previous version deal less damage but have consistent AoE of CC. Many players prefer CC effect of the old version over the higher damage potential (rightfully so, because the damage still shet), albeit DE intention with the change was simply make ppl work more for the CC.

When the damage aspect of a skill can no longer effective at killing the enemy at a pace you rely on them to be, the CC aspect of it is the grave saving point. I still stand that the "fix you not dying" to enemies which can easily oneshot you will always have value.

53 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

You're completely missing the point here

And what exactly is your point for crying out loud...

I read your original post for like 5 times before concluded that either your concept of CC or the context you using the word CC in is just non sense, which is why i suggested the distinction between debuff and CC in my reply. Go read u post again dude.

Edited October 14, 2019 by FireSegment

[Ceadeus]

8 hours ago, FireSegment said:

One simple counter argument is the difference between this current version of Ember's World on Fire and the previous version - the one that don't scale in damage and doesn't shrink over time. The previous version deal less damage but have consistent AoE of CC. Many players prefer CC effect of the old version over the higher damage potential (rightfully so, because the damage still shet), albeit DE intention with the change was simply make ppl work more for the CC.

When the damage aspect of a skill can no longer effective at killing the enemy at a pace you rely on them to be, the CC aspect of it is the grave saving point. I still stand that the "fix you not dying" to enemies which can easily oneshot you will always have value.

The problem with this is that the "scaling damage" that Ember received both wasn't actual scaling damage (It scaled up to a set % not based on enemy difficulty) and it also was so small that it was just a flat out nerf compared to her previous version because the damage she received wasn't proportional to the effect that the CC provided.  I'm not sitting here saying CC is always garbage and can never be used for any purpose, but if all it is is a setup for a DPS ability then the CC becomes pointless and you might as well just throw on better DPS like most of the "nuke frames" that are popular right now have.

9 hours ago, FireSegment said:

And what exactly is your point for crying out loud...

I read your original post for like 5 times before concluded that either your concept of CC or the context you using the word CC in is just non sense, which is why i suggested the distinction between debuff and CC in my reply. Go read u post again dude.

My point here is to find a way to make CC ALONE  viable.  Not using CC to keep yourself alive or using CC to make damaging enemies easier or whatever other garbage.  I'm not proposing some tweaking of the numbers of the existing CC to make them all as strong as nuke frames, I'm trying to expose a concept of a redesign of how CC is used and valued by the game.  The idea of this whole thing is that, if you want to, you should be able to take a full CC only build or "pacifist build" into a mission and not only complete it but receive similar rewards and benefits to if you had played the mission by killing everything and getting all the kill loot.  A decent example (of the concept not necessarily of CC) might be something like Ivara's Prowl, where she doesn't kill the enemy, she doesn't even engage it, but she still gets loot for her efforts, that's what I want to make CC do, make it a beneficial alternative to killing for no greater reason than it would make CC gameplay in general more interesting and return us to a bit of that "ninja" narrative that the game has all but lost.

[xxswatelitexx]

You seem to be missing one obivious point.
All you are thinking about is you damaging the enemies.

You forget the opposite is true, enemies can damage you.
Crowd Control essentially either prevents enemies from damaging you or decreases drastically the number of enemies shooting you. 
This will drastically decrease the damage done to you - giving you much higher survivability. 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

"CC is not "valuable" if it still requires damage to follow it up"

 

This guy really doesn't know what he's talking about lol.

[Takanuva0510]

Disclaimer: These are just my opinions and sugestions based on the experiences I have had playing the game. I am certainly not a veteran, but after playing for around 1.5 to 2 years this is where I stand.

The issues:

The main issue currently in the way warframe has advanced, at least as far as CC is concerened, is that the amount of damage that a player can dish out isn't comparable to the enemies survivability any longer. For instance, my mesa, which is nowhere near a finalized endgame build, can still one shot enemies in arbitrations up to round 35 or 40. these are supposed to be some of the hardest enemies in the game, but if they don't have time to shoot at me before they are dead, then it doesn't matter if we CC them.

The time I found CC the most useful actually was when I was in the earlier parts of the game, when the enemies were an actual threat. When an enemy could kill me faster than I could kill them, immobilizing them was the best option to make sure I didn't die. Now that I have weapons that can deal anywhere from 10K-15K damage a hit, most of the base enemies just crumple and never have a chance to put up a fight. 

The reason CC is important in other MMOs is that the enemies are assumed to be on average stronger than the players. In most cases with these games, when you walk into a room full of enemies above or even with an equivalent level, if it was just a pure damage game, the players would lose almost every time because the longer the fight goes on, the more likely the players are to loose. This is why they have tanks to soak the damage, a healer to keep everyone alive, and normally some form of CC to make the enemies easier to kill or are locking down the biggest bad guy in the room. In Warframe, we are rarely dealing with long fights where CC would actually matter.

How many times have you found yourself fighting the same group of grunt enemies (not the same type) for more than a minute. This doesn't happen that often, as most frames can deal more than enough damage over the course of that minute. None of the bosses really require CC either, because it either doesn't affect them or they just die to quickly to straight damage. 

Changing the game so that CC is more viable is not an easy task if I am being realistic. Toning down the damage players do isn't really in line with where the game seems to be headed, and just giving the enemies straight damage resistance would likely invalidate some frames who don't have CC but aren't just damage dealers.

My Idea:

My personal idea for the fix is actually based on how the first Division game created challenging encounters for its hardest difficulty, make enemies who can combat the players progress in the fight in ways that aren't just damage. In the normal versions of the missions, most of the enemies were just grunts with guns who were easily killed. When you get to the hardest difficulty however, the enemies are reduced in number, but their ability to engage the player is made much better. There are healer enemies who could undo the damage done by the players, there were the tank enemies who focused on protecting the enemy team, there were DPS type enemies, and there were enemies who would practice area denial. This change allowed the enemies to actively combat the players in ways that weren't just shooting the gun and hoping that they hit.

Warframe wouldn't just be able to do a direct copy and paste of course, since Division has a much slower paced and tactical combat. We already know that an enemy of this type can provide more of a challenge because of nullifiers and arbitration drones. Even though they are relatively easy to deal with and are more often then not much more than an annoying road bump, they show that when the enemy can interact in ways that aren't direct damage it can create a greater challenge for the players. 

My idea for what could be implemented in Warframe are commander type enemies who could either exist alongside or replace eximus enemies (or eximus could just become the name for the commanders it doesn't really matter). These enemies would be more powerful than the average grunt, and can have a range of abilities from creating an aura of damage resistance for the units allies, stunning or disabling the players, or enemies who can just boost the damage their allies can do. The things these commanders would have in common is being more mobile than the usual grunts, actively attempting to dodge shots and move away from players attempting to melee them, and a device that makes them immune from being targeted or damaged by Warframe abilities. This way they can still be dealt with by players with a good weapon setup and good aim, but making it so that warframes who have CC can lock them down and make it significantly easier for the team to focus them down and stop the commander from supporting the other enemies.

Afterthoughts:

I hope this idea can serve as a basis or even inspiration for a way DE can make it so that CC is more viable. I really like playing frames who aren't just "press button, kill enemy", but unfortunately the way the game has developed these types of frames are just not as viable in the high level activities. 

All this said, my view of what CC is isn't necessarily going to be what others see as CC. Grendel's ability to eat people and hold them in his stomach isn't the first thing that comes to mind, but it achieves the main thing that most good CC wants to do, take the enemy temporarily out of the fight. 

TL;DR Enemies don't live long enough to be CC'ed and maybe they should.