The (Possible) Long Road Away from a Damage Meta

[CodeUltimate]

29 minutes ago, Uhkretor said:

And no one cares so~...

... To each, their own and everyone goes on with their lives. 

The same can be said about your meta hating opinion lol.

[CodeUltimate]

34 minutes ago, Formous said:

I just prefer to set myself a standard to live by.  If i examine my life as just a big failure and never try, then life isn't worth living to me.  

Don't even waste your time with "meta" hating people. If someone hates meta in an irrational manner  is very likely they can't brain.exe good enough.

Edited October 24, 2019 by CodeUltimate
8v

[Uhkretor]

6 minutes ago, CodeUltimate said:

The same can be said about your meta hating opinion lol.

Of course, I've never said otherwise.

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

10 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

And nothing will change , we all will still cater to damage , damage will always be meta and what we will do next ? remove next set of mods wich provide us best and when agian and agian untill we left with out mods at all ?

Cant people see this is a pointless argument .

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

You ever had an idea that sounded really good to you but the moment you tell someone else they immediately can tell how your idea is bad in every conceivable way possible?

That's about what this thread feels like.

Pointless or bad as it may be, I'd rather at least attempt to change things than just blatantly accept our Serration & Heavy Caliber overlords.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Derio23 said:

So basically what you are asking for is a huge nerf to damage across the board which would also require a complete rework of content as well due to the lower damage output. Also several warframes/weapons that depend on those mods will also suffer tremendously unless a content rework is done.

By "several", you mean "every" ? Damage mods always go in before status or critical mods. That's how it has always been, regardless of the build.
 

4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

This examples are 100% true, in case there are direct DPS boosts available. The model presented in this topic revolves around (almost) no direct DPS boosts, so that recoil reduction would be a valid way to improve weapon's performace. You argue from the standpoint of the current mod system, not from the standpoint suggested by OP. Your arguments show exactly why utility mods are valued so little in presence of plenty direct damage options.

Yea, I already mentioned it with an example and presented one reason why those mods do not work, right here...

 

It is obvious, that you cannot remove mandatory mods entirely. However, if each piece of gear has its own set of mandatory mods, which vary from each other, as a result total number of used and valued mods should rise. Build diversity should rise.

Thanks for your input. Great to see at least some players willing to get in on the discussion. While build diversity is "different ways to kill your opponents", at least it's more interesting than just slapping flat damage increase mods on weapons. For example, Motus and Aero Mods are rather situational. They require some effort in getting their bonuses to trigger, and that's the idea.

[makaloff95]

11 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... I think you're mixing "mandatory" with "meta"...

"Mandatory" is self-explanatory, its what allows a player to push forward, without breaking a weapon's and/or Warframe's nature.

"Meta" is a disease that a small minority always finds a way to infect a game with.

Meta is a natural occurance in our strive to become as good and effficent as we can. However most content dont need meta builds to complete but it definetly makes things way more easier and efficent. Its like with WoW, in order to push high M+ keys you want a META setup since it will increase the chances of a sucessfull key run.  But in warframe you arent forced to run with meta builds unless you dive deep into index, arbies or other similar endless missions

[Uhkretor]

2 minutes ago, makaloff95 said:

you arent forced to run with meta builds unless you dive deep into index, arbies or other similar endless missions

... you mean... things I already do without Meta? interesting...

 

Still...

3 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... To each, their own and everyone goes on with their lives.

[makaloff95]

2 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

... you mean... things I already do without Meta? interesting...

 

Still...

Good for you that you have found a non meta build (i mean this in a friendly way). But then i have to ask: why claiming meta builds being toxic when people only wants to be efficent as possible and it doesnt affect you in any way or form?

[Zebiko]

I don't like the idea of unmodded and unranked weapons being able to output high DPS. That's what would happen if you take out all the direct damage increasing mods. 

[Marvelous_A]

I like the idea of element mods converting damage instead of straight adding damage to your weapons. It's one of the reasons why elemental builds are preferred over IPS builds.

[AzureTerra]

"meta" is a player generated construct. 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

21 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

tage 1: Removing Must-pick Parameters

1. Remove the following parameters from the mod system and Riven dispositions:

- Damage (Serration, Hornet Strike, Augur Pact, Heavy Caliber, etc).

- Ability Strength (Intensity, Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude, Overextended etc).

- Multishot mods (Hell's Chamber, Vigilante Armaments).

so remove all damage moddablity an only have elemental status utility moddablity
as that is what your asking
more so your requesting to remove speed nova, radial disarm loki an many other CC an buffing builds cause of removing overextended

 

21 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Stage 2: Tweaking Elemental Mods

1. Instead of adding elemental damage to a weapon, elemental mods will convert a portion of the weapon's damage into that element.

- For physical weapons, a 20% Heat mod will mean the weapon deals 20% Heat damage and 80% physical damage (a combination of Slash/Impact/Puncture).

- For elemental weapons, let's say, a Cold weapon, a 20% Heat mod will mean the weapon deals 20% Blast Damage, and 80% Cold damage. This can follow the existing Load Order, but you get the idea. They change the percentages, but don't add damage.

2. Instead of adding physical damage to a weapon, physical damage mods will convert a portion of the weapon's physical damage into more of that type (Slash/Impact/Proc). This will allow physical status mods to shift a weapon's predominant physical type in a certain direction.

At this point, weapon damage is still at 100%, but can possibly proc multiple status effects.

ok o_O by this your saying you want elemental mods to change portion of physical damage on a weapon to that elemental, while having physical damage mods turn a portion of the elemental damage into physical damage.
Cause what this does is make modding more complex an weaken a weapon very much so with your stage 1 idea.
Along with making general gameplay harder cause we cant deal more damage cause your wanting to nerf damage 

 

 

21 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Stage 3: Scaling Enemies or Weapons accordingly

1. DE probably has historical data or they can crunch numbers on nerfing enemies accordingly to the new changes. The reverse can also be done, i.e bump up all weapon damage as if they have an innate Serration buff to them.

Notes

1. Status Chance, Critical Chance, and Critical Damage mods will be left as is.

2. Ability Range, Duration, and Efficiency mods will also be left as is.

ya its called make every planet have the same level cap cause of stage 1 an 2 already nerfed everything an so now there is no real progression in the game at all.
as at this rate why not nerf health, shield an armor too as with these changes your shifting the entire games builds to kill it before it kills you to make every frame into a tanky bullet sponge so we dont die.

 

 

21 hours ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Will these changes make certain weapons obsolete?

Probably, which will warrant reworks. We may see more weapons getting additional gimmicks outside of the mod system (such as the Ocucor's energy tendril, or the Quatz's electrical discharge on reload).

These suggestions can be a start. While the removal of certain things from the game after so long may be a radical thing, it's necessary, especially the must-picks. Once the gist of it is set in motion, other changes can come into play gradually.

Did you have similar sentiments as me? Got a suggestion to polish up these points? Let me know in the replies. Cheers.

how can your ideas make any weapon obsolete as like i said before your idea is to nerf everything not into the ground but 10 thousand feet under ground.

the modding system of the game is all about CHOICE an learning from trail an error what is good an what is bad.
game metas are there cause alot of people go towards that after while but not everyone will build a frame or weapon the same cause they want to focus on certain aspects of a frame.
all of your ideas are about shifting the meta from what it is now to who can play the game the safest

[Teridax68]

I very much agree with both the sentiment in the OP and the proposed method of achieving a healthier state of affairs. Our weapon modding is currently dominated by mandatory, boring damage mods that have done nothing but mess up balance and constrain our customization options, to the point where DE have had to add another dedicated utility-only slot to our guns. Warframe customization has some more options, which is why I'd perhaps be more reluctant to tamper with Power Strength so much as our base damage (PS affects a whole lot of other factors as well, and often presents a legitimate point of choice), but in either case our frame damage should be balanced along a similar baseline.

Beyond that, I personally would like to go further in some respects: I think both crit and status deserve reworks, as they currently don't really add choice to build customization, and ultimately don't even add that much gameplay due to their RNG reliance. I also think enemies would probably not even need to scale that much in EHP, if at all, if we're being kept at a consistent level of damage output (though there's also a problem with enemy damage scaling and our EHP that needs to be resolved). However, simply removing the most basic mandatory mods to our builds would already help significantly in deflating the gap between base and veteran-level weapon DPS, and therefore allow for much better balance and customization.

[Uhkretor]

9 hours ago, makaloff95 said:

why claiming meta builds being toxic

Your words here, not mine... I said that its a "disease", not toxic... If you misunderstood what I said as "toxic", then that just shows a lot from you and you have no one else to blame but you, and you alone, for it.

 

But to answer that particular part, its simply because I can... Its a very important reason, really, since I don't like to lie... But then again, its very subjective... One person's truth is the next one's lie, or so its usually said...

I'm not saying people shouldn't do it if they want to, everyone's free to choose...

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

16 hours ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

so remove all damage moddablity an only have elemental status utility moddablity
as that is what your asking
more so your requesting to remove speed nova, radial disarm loki an many other CC an buffing builds cause of removing overextended

 

ok o_O by this your saying you want elemental mods to change portion of physical damage on a weapon to that elemental, while having physical damage mods turn a portion of the elemental damage into physical damage.
Cause what this does is make modding more complex an weaken a weapon very much so with your stage 1 idea.
Along with making general gameplay harder cause we cant deal more damage cause your wanting to nerf damage 

 

 

ya its called make every planet have the same level cap cause of stage 1 an 2 already nerfed everything an so now there is no real progression in the game at all.
as at this rate why not nerf health, shield an armor too as with these changes your shifting the entire games builds to kill it before it kills you to make every frame into a tanky bullet sponge so we dont die.

 

 

how can your ideas make any weapon obsolete as like i said before your idea is to nerf everything not into the ground but 10 thousand feet under ground.

the modding system of the game is all about CHOICE an learning from trail an error what is good an what is bad.
game metas are there cause alot of people go towards that after while but not everyone will build a frame or weapon the same cause they want to focus on certain aspects of a frame.
all of your ideas are about shifting the meta from what it is now to who can play the game the safest

Actually, on the note of Overextended, you're right. I forgot its use on Speed Novas and Loki's Radia Disarm. We can leave that in as it helps with CC.

If by "making modding more complex" you mean "I can't proc every single element in the Origin system with my one weapon", then probably. Pick and choose what types of status effects you'd like to inflict with your set of weapons. Existing elemental weapons (Cyanex, Battactor, Glaxion, etc) can be built to proc more elements while the physical weapons can be built to inflict more Slash/take down shields/etc. That way, it takes a combination of weapons to prepare for a variety of situations or enemy types, not just one.

Well, Stage 3 is pretty much just scaling back the game around the lower damage output. Health and armour can be adjusted where needed, but it doesn't have to be so drastic. Some players want challenge, right? This could be the challenge they're looking for. Maybe they can't run and gun or do a million damage like they used to do. On the bullet sponge note, traditional shooter stuff like taking cover or exposing yourself as little as possible may become more relevant (and by extension, defensive frames like Frost, or support-oriented builds may also become more relevant).

You mentioned CHOICE, right? Removing damage and multishot mods would free up quite a bit of space for other mods to take their place, and this is where the trial and error takes
place. Some prefer reload speed to increase DPS. I use less of Reload Speed because I have Synth mods. While they are not as efficient as faster-reloading weapons, I like the idea of running empty on my gun, then taking out my melee weapon to slash a few enemies, then switch back to my reloaded gun. The fluidity of it goes well with the quick swap between melee and primary/secondary weapons. It's not efficient DPS, but I care not for efficiency. It's just how I play the game.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Hammerhead_FireCaste

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

1 hour ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

If by "making modding more complex" you mean "I can't proc every single element in the Origin system with my one weapon", then probably. Pick and choose what types of status effects you'd like to inflict with your set of weapons. Existing elemental weapons (Cyanex, Battactor, Glaxion, etc) can be built to proc more elements while the physical weapons can be built to inflict more Slash/take down shields/etc. That way, it takes a combination of weapons to prepare for a variety of situations or enemy types, not just one.

more complex as your wanting to have a system that shifts the damage values of a weapon
if weapon has no elemental on it an you put a physical damage mod on its a waste cause of what your system takes one damage type an shifts it to another.
so your saying people only build for one weapon to kill with but thats not everyone. I run differnt damages on each of my weapons as that way i able to make my equipement better suited for what im am fighting.
 

1 hour ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Well, Stage 3 is pretty much just scaling back the game around the lower damage output. Health and armour can be adjusted where needed, but it doesn't have to be so drastic. Some players want challenge, right? This could be the challenge they're looking for. Maybe they can't run and gun or do a million damage like they used to do. On the bullet sponge note, traditional shooter stuff like taking cover or exposing yourself as little as possible may become more relevant (and by extension, defensive frames like Frost, or support-oriented builds may also become more relevant).

scaling back an pretty much have no scalling at all.
we already have bullet spongy enemies an your idea is to make enemies an players bullet sponges....... where the fun in that. We better off turning every weapon into nerf guns.

how are the support an tank frames suppose to be of any use when we have no power strength mods
frost snowglobe is based on power strength an armor. thus now in your idea change makes the frost have to stack on more armor mods to make the bubble make up for the loss in modding
same goes for gara an her glass walls
same with nezha, rhino, inaros
trinity EV build is dead cause you always get base amount of energy out of a enemy
volt an wisp speed buffs are base value
volt an valkry no longer useful in making you able to melee faster
oberon an wisp no longer as as useful in passive healing
saryrn, frost, an mag are no longer viable ways of taking out enemy armor with ease.
Nidus an equinox who have abilities that boost power strength.
 

1 hour ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

You mentioned CHOICE, right? Removing damage and multishot mods would free up quite a bit of space for other mods to take their place, and this is where the trial and error takes
place. Some prefer reload speed to increase DPS. I use less of Reload Speed because I have Synth mods. While they are not as efficient as faster-reloading weapons, I like the idea of running empty on my gun, then taking out my melee weapon to slash a few enemies, then switch back to my reloaded gun. The fluidity of it goes well with the quick swap between melee and primary/secondary weapons. It's not efficient DPS, but I care not for efficiency. It's just how I play the game.

players are already able to do this but your wanting to force every player to play like you.
while guess what 😮 your idea removes synth charge as guess what its a damage mod.
an yet again your wanting to change the meta of the game as its build tanky frames but also makes players HAVE to use ulitity mods.

your honestly not thinking of the gams future as all this is doing would remove challenge from the game. but how about you go ahead an run without any power strength mods or damage mods on your weapons an run a sortie solo an see how your play style fits into that.
you will be having to non stop duck behind objects an use tons of plates to keep alive
then go an play any mission on earth, cause now your making every enemy on the entire game the level of earth

[SolarDwagon]

While the entire idea of progression does put a spanner in your idea, I don't think you have no point. The overall build diversity of most weapons is low (and even lower with Rivens in play)-For instance crit secondaries (which almost every good secondary is) have 5 invariate mods (Hornet, BD, LT, primed crit, primed crit) and then are going to normally have 2 elementals, the only choice being which elementals, and then either a riven or some actual mod choice. That's not really build choice. Neither is "Weapon X has Y mod set", if I'm being honest. That's no more choice than we currently have, which is picking which weapon to use.
So some of those mods could certainly stand to go. The problem is doing so in a way that respects players effort, still allows for progression, and still gives that satisfying feeling of making your weapon scary. The problem is of course, in the details. DE have made it clear they're aware of the problem, and have made suggestions such as removing the damage mods and tying damage to level in some way. This has its own problems, and normally gets widely criticised (formaing would become much more of a chore, for a start).

[Hammerhead_FireCaste]

On 2019-10-25 at 2:36 PM, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

players are already able to do this but your wanting to force every player to play like you.
while guess what 😮 your idea removes synth charge as guess what its a damage mod.
an yet again your wanting to change the meta of the game as its build tanky frames but also makes players HAVE to use ulitity mods.

your honestly not thinking of the gams future as all this is doing would remove challenge from the game. but how about you go ahead an run without any power strength mods or damage mods on your weapons an run a sortie solo an see how your play style fits into that.
you will be having to non stop duck behind objects an use tons of plates to keep alive
then go an play any mission on earth, cause now your making every enemy on the entire game the level of earth

Don't you tell me that I'm forcing people to play a certain way when the game itself forces players to build towards damage in modes like Sanctuary Onslaught and Sorties. Also, if I didn't think about the game's future(which has been uncertain for a while), I wouldn't even bother setting up this thread to talk about the subject.

Exposing yourself less via cover is the norm in shooter games, even games without a sticky cover system. Back in the day, players had to actually be careful when fighting infested, because toxin damage could kill them quickly, making Trinity players important, to quote one example. Trinity herself also requires some cover as she's not infallible. That kind of gameplay is certainly more fun compared to walking into a room and pressing a button to nuke everything in sight like the carefree near-immortal fourth-ability-spam space ninjas that we are. No cover needed, no caution needed, outside of certain prompts such as Eidolon energy spikes and ROFLyst beams.

~~~

It's pretty obvious that the damage meta has been running for so long that the thought of removing damage mods would cause the entire system to crumble inwards, hence merely trying to have a discussion on the subject is difficult. While some of the responses here are sensible and useful (which I am grateful for), it's obvious that the game is not ready for either just yet.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Hammerhead_FireCaste

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

2 minutes ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Exposing yourself less via cover is the norm in shooter games, even games without a sticky cover system. Back in the day, players had to actually be careful when fighting infested, because toxin damage could kill them quickly, making Trinity players important, to quote one example. Trinity herself also requires some cover as she's not infallible. That kind of gameplay is certainly more fun compared to walking into a room and pressing a button to nuke everything in sight like the carefree near-immortal space ninjas that we are. No cover needed, no caution needed, outside of certain prompts such as Eidolon energy spikes and ROFLyst beams.

yet in those days trinity blessing was able to heal allies no matter where they were on the map, so making her able to hide away from enemies an watch allies health an bless when they needed health.
Yet warframe isnt like most shooter games an why it's not going the same routes as other games.

4 minutes ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

Don't you tell me that I'm forcing people to play a certain way when the game itself forces players to build towards damage in modes like Sanctuary Onslaught and Sorties. Also, if I didn't think about the game's future(which has been uncertain for a while), I wouldn't even bother setting up this thread to talk about the subject.

But yet your wanting to swap the meta from damage to defense. 
I tried to get you to see that what your wanting isnt a simple swap but a extreme overhaul of the entire games system.
You don't want to see that your wanting to Nerf so much of the game that it wouldn't be warframe.
You want to remove variety from the game to make it fit YOUR desired playstyle.
Your wanting to set the bar of overall difficulty lower but refuse to see that.

10 minutes ago, Hammerhead_FireCaste said:

It's pretty obvious that the damage meta has been running for so long that the thought of removing damage mods would cause the entire system to crumble inwards, hence merely trying to have a discussion on the subject is difficult. While some of the responses here are sensible and useful (which I am grateful for), it's obvious that the game is not ready for either just yet.

Yet you don't see how removing damage an power strength mods would destroy the play style of the game.
Certain frames require the power strength mods for buffing abilities an for defensive abilities, which would require more reworks to work in your desired game setting.
I pointed out various frames that would have there uses removed by having the power strength mods removed.
You want a total progression stop gap that would kill the games lifetime an make any player a veteran player in matter of 2 to 3 months.
 

[George_PPS]

On 2019-10-23 at 8:31 AM, Uhkretor said:

 

"Meta" is a disease that a small minority always finds a way to infect a game with.

Metas are the best weapons and the best builds. They exist in every game and every weapon category. It’s normal, not a disease. 

[Uhkretor]

4 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Metas are the best weapons and the best builds. They exist in every game and every weapon category. It’s normal, not a disease. 

On 2019-10-24 at 3:33 PM, Uhkretor said:

One person's truth is the next one's lie

 

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

We already use weapons for damage to make 

we have dps support and tank frames who have all varying dps levels and some rely on weapons for killing power

let the weapons focus on dps and the warframes on whatever they are good at