Amalgam Serration for shotguns

[thurmack]

Please consider an equivalent mod for shotguns. Using a non-rifle primary means losing out on up to 25% movement speed!

I imagine your usage stats will show that almost everyone is switching to rifles.

[Avienas]

3 minutes ago, thurmack said:

Please consider an equivalent mod for shotguns. Using a non-rifle primary means losing out on up to 25% movement speed!

I imagine your usage stats will show that almost everyone is switching to rifles.

Try to remember that amalgam mods were pretty much part of one of D.E.`s attempts to change the formula up, crying for a copy of a variation mod on a different weapon type is the same as crying on why D.E. has not given a primed pistol gambit, primed target cracker for primaries and a primed ravage for rifles.

If you do not like rifles that much, then slap a sprint mod on your exilus slot, despite the fact most people use bullet jump for `mobility`. Plus if i want a shotgun like rifle, i use a opticor or if i want something just as destructive but has some dakka, i use a acceltra.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Not me, I’m not even using the Amalgam mod outside of a build for Gauss because Warframes are fast enough for me without it.

I’m fairly sure that usage stats will show that an incredibly low percentage of people have even switched to the Amalgam mod, let alone that people are changing off their favourite primaries specifically because it exists.

But then again, my assumption has no more basis than your own. They’re both opinions.

[thurmack]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But then again, my assumption has no more basis than your own. They’re both opinions.

Good thing I posted in the Feedback section then, I guess. 😉

To be sure, the usage stats will provide DE with the data they need to make the decision. I'm simply noting that one of the likely consequences of this mod is a significant reduction in non-serration-viable primaries,  unrelated to their individual specs or mechanics. Maybe that was WAD - I'm pretty new, so maybe there was already an issue with too many people using shotguns.

[Educated_Beast]

With bullet jumps and void dash, I cannot say I notice the Sprint speed and just keep the extra damage.  

Now if the shotgun equivalent boosted jump speed, then I'd seriously consider using.  But running, do people still run?

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 minutes ago, thurmack said:

Good thing I posted in the Feedback section then, I guess.

In a public Forum of our peers so we can disagree with equal weight until one of us has actual facts to back up our opinions, like rational people, with no assumption that the Devs are who we’re talking to.

And what we do know about the amalgam mods is what DE said when they were released, namely that they’re trying to get around the current corner they’ve backed into with the modding system, where mods like Serration are just mandatory and there’s no variety in the builds.

Shotguns don’t get the same thing as the rifles because of how shotguns behave and deal damage. It’s why there is a Primed damage mod for shotguns that is only equal to the basic Serration, while the original is far less.

It’s the same with Rifles versus Bows and Snipers, there are some mods that only the others use, while everything that can be put on a Rifle fits on those as well.

Shotguns do get to benefit from any mod marked Primary, though, which does give them access to some of the most powerful in the game, such as the unfortunately powerful Hunter Munitions and Vigilante Armaments.

Plus, consider the magic equation with Shotguns; if you have one that can reach 100% Status Chance before adding Multishot mods... they are genuinely better than Rifles because of that magic equation that makes every single pellet fired have a guaranteed Status... it’s genuinely terrifying what some shotguns can do...

In short, a tiny amount of Sprint Boost, in what is de-facto the most mobile and high speed movement capable shooter currently playable, is not a reason for people to abandon shotguns. In fact, from another point of view, a tiny amount of sprint boost isn’t even much of a reason to abandon the regular Serration.

So I’ll stick to my view on your feedback being a bit of a non-issue.

[(XBOX)Erudite Prime]

I kinda like the idea that rifles give more movement speed. Then again, I wish Amalgam Shotgun Spazz wasn't worthless.

I mean, Revive Speed? Really?

[Yuri_Doujinshi]

Personally I would never use Amalgam Serration outside of max sprint Gauss meme builds, but to each their own I guess.

[Xzorn]

Probably won't happen just because the Shotgun base damage mod is a Primed version.

Would be nice to have more interesting ones though. Serration is the only one worth using and mostly for a stat stick.

DE knows so little about their game they think +%Dodge Speed is a good thing.+%Dodge Distance sure but not speed.

Only "Rifles"  I use are beam weapons and explosive / AoE weapons so not sure about that usage claim.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I'd go after an Amalgamod that boosted over all speed for shotguns like the serration one for rifles...in a flat minute...

[(XBOX)l Saminator l]

If anything I think the Shotgun Amalgam mod should have gotten the sprint speed boost instead of the Rifle Amalgam mod. Since shotguns it's mostly all about close range shooting, you want to run up to enemies and blast them with a shotgun. So I always felt it was a missed opportunity that the sprint speed went to the rifle Amalgam mod instead. 

[Skaleek]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

I kinda like the idea that rifles give more movement speed. Then again, I wish Amalgam Shotgun Spazz wasn't worthless.

I mean, Revive Speed? Really?

I use it when i have the capacity and i would otherwise have regular shotgun spazz equipped. I do find i rez quite a few people daily.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Skaleek

[Cloudyvisage]

I really enjoy the dodge speed amalgam, it really smooths out a lot of parkour interactions and quickens recovery time from a roll. Rolling is already amazing as a maneuver so improving it is wonderful. Bullet Jump may be king but the roll is Queen. Guess the slide is probably prince or something.

[Renegade343]

12 hours ago, Xzorn said:

DE knows so little about their game they think +%Dodge Speed is a good thing.+%Dodge Distance sure but not speed.

No, that +%Dodge Speed's a perfect fit for people who enjoys dancing around enemies while killing. Makes rolling much less clunky.

[Xzorn]

47 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

No, that +%Dodge Speed's a perfect fit for people who enjoys dancing around enemies while killing. Makes rolling much less clunky.

 

No, it makes Dodging less Dodging.

Dodge speed only increases the animation speed of the action which shortens the distance traveled and the window of CC immunity / 75% DR leaving more room for taking full damage from attacks and a higher chance of not even dodging the intended attack.

What makes Dodge better for dancing around enemies is Sprint Speed since increasing Sprint Speed increases momentum between all actions. You simply move faster in every way long as you're holding the Sprint key which is especially noticeable past 1.5 speed. +%Dodge Speed has no positive mobility or Defensive qualities.

+%Dodge Distance on the other hand increases the distance of dodge within the same animation speed making it a superior mobility action. You can easily compare the difference using Mirage and Titania. One has speed the other has distance. If they made it correctly which is asking a lot these days then +%Dodge Speed should cover the same distance in a shorter period but it doesn't and since that day will never come if you want less clunky maneuvers use Rush and Amalgam Serration.

[Renegade343]

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

No, it makes Dodging less Dodging.

Dodge speed only increases the animation speed of the action which shortens the distance traveled and the window of CC immunity / 75% DR leaving more room for taking full damage from attacks and a higher chance of not even dodging the intended attack.

The distance difference is negligible when you take into account all the movement chains, and you don't need a relatively long CC immunity, just enough to trigger it when the CC hits. And higher chance of not dodging the intended attack isn't true with a bit of practice. I used the normal roll and the Amalgam roll long enough to know.

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

What makes Dodge better for dancing around enemies is Sprint Speed since increasing Sprint Speed increases momentum between all actions. You simply move faster in every way long as you're holding the Sprint key which is especially noticeable past 1.5 speed. +%Dodge Speed has no positive mobility or Defensive qualities.

Both normal rolling and Amalgam rolling don't exactly halt momentum (both still benefit from Sprint Speed), and with Amalgam rolling, it lets you get out of the animation faster to resume moving in any direction faster, which is nice for reacting towards more sudden conditions.

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

+%Dodge Distance on the other hand increases the distance of dodge within the same animation speed making it a superior mobility action. You can easily compare the difference using Mirage and Titania. One has speed the other has distance. If they made it correctly which is asking a lot these days then +%Dodge Speed should cover the same distance in a shorter period but it doesn't and since that day will never come if you want less clunky maneuvers use Rush and Amalgam Serration.

+%Dodge Distance can actually be detrimental since you may not want to overshoot while killing enemies, leading to misses. And based on what you wrote, you appear to prioritize distance traveled over combat with your rolls. I prioritize using rolls in combat.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Renegade343

[Xzorn]

26 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

The distance difference is negligible when you take into account all the movement chains, and you don't need a relatively long CC immunity, just enough to trigger it when the CC hits. And higher chance of not dodging the intended attack isn't true with a bit of practice. I used the normal roll and the Amalgam roll long enough to know.

Both normal rolling and Amalgam rolling don't exactly halt momentum (both still benefit from Sprint Speed), and with Amalgam rolling, it lets you get out of the animation faster to resume moving in any direction faster, which is nice for reacting towards more sudden conditions.

+%Dodge Distance can actually be detrimental since you may not want to overshoot while killing enemies, leading to misses. And based on what you wrote, you appear to prioritize distance traveled over combat with your rolls. I prioritize using rolls in combat.

 

I find the reduction quite notable well as the increase in repetitive use needed. I've even gone far as to parse the differences. Mirage only has 50% instead of 60% and it still sucks bad compared to pushing 2.0 Sprint Speed with normal Dodge.

We don't "Need" to dodge at all in this game anymore so either way a longer window is always better. A higher chance of not dodging the intended attack is real because you're not covering the same distance. A Hyeka Master throws a Firebomb one normal dodge might get out of the way while it may take two with increase speed either way the second option leaves a window with no 75%DR between rolls. Dodge speed doesn't increase the speed you gain DR; only how fast you lose it. Why would you want that?

Yes you can overshoot with +%Dodge Distance which is why I don't suggest it but I would personally rather roll into a wall knowing I have 75% DR than not roll into a wall and take full damage. I prioritize Mobility and Defense because it's Dodge. It's not used for killing; It's to avoid taking damage. A misplaced dodge is the player's fault regardless of Dodge speed but making it faster in animation speed is counter productive since when all is said and done a more dependable 75% DR wins every time.

Dodge is easily my most used maneuver in this game well over bullet jumping. It's why I use Rush on most my builds and it's essential for Endurance runs which are nothing but combat. I would never trade survival for kill speed. Perhaps instead you undervalue that DR window dodge gives.

[Renegade343]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

We don't "Need" to dodge at all in this game anymore so either way a longer window is always better. A higher chance of not dodging the intended attack is real because you're not covering the same distance. A Hyeka Master throws a Firebomb one normal dodge might get out of the way while it may take two with increase speed either way the second option leaves a window with no 75%DR between rolls. Dodge speed doesn't increase the speed you gain DR; only how fast you lose it. Why would you want that?

You can just roll into the firebomb, get the 75% DR, then kill. Or backflip, which is enough to get out of the firebomb's radius even with Amalgam roll. I prioritize roll for CC immunity, then DR against spike damage.

16 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I prioritize Mobility and Defense because it's Dodge. It's not used for killing; It's to avoid taking damage.

You can use rolling to give yourself windows for counter-attacks, such as getting up close to get the enemies to get them to melee, roll, shoot. Or take control of the situation in PVP against players by forcing them to miss while you know where to aim for a quick kill.

5 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Dodge is easily my most used maneuver in this game well over bullet jumping. It's why I use Rush on most my builds and it's essential for Endurance runs which are nothing but combat. I would never trade survival for kill speed. Perhaps instead you undervalue that DR window dodge gives.

Yeah, at high Endurance levels, you're not going to be relying on dodge rolls for DR against general damage (I doubt you actually decide to roll around a lot while going for deep endurance runs, given you actually need to, you know, kill as well). You use it against incoming spike damage to augment other DR mechanics that are protecting you against general damage, in which Amalgam's still gives out a comfortable window against said spike damage.

[thurmack]

On 2019-10-28 at 10:25 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

In a public Forum of our peers so we can disagree with equal weight until one of us has actual facts to back up our opinions, like rational people, with no assumption that the Devs are who we’re talking to

So I’ll stick to my view on your feedback being a bit of a non-issue.

We seem to have a different definition of the term "feedback", but otherwise your post was very interesting and you made some good counterpoints.

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, thurmack said:

We seem to have a different definition of the term "feedback"

Oh, no, you misunderstand me. We have the same definition of it, just a vastly different definition of what happens to it when you post it here ^^

[Drachnyn]

I really hope we get more of the generic amalgam mods like the first 4. Amalgam serration found its way on every of my rifles and DE could really make weird mods with that. IMO that would be an easy way to break up our problem with mandatory mods, atleast a bit. They also dont need to restrict themselves to a single amalgam version of a mod. There could very easily be another amalgam serration but with a different effect than sprint speed.

[Xzorn]

9 hours ago, Renegade343 said:

Yeah, at high Endurance levels, you're not going to be relying on dodge rolls for DR against general damage (I doubt you actually decide to roll around a lot while going for deep endurance runs, given you actually need to, you know, kill as well). You use it against incoming spike damage to augment other DR mechanics that are protecting you against general damage, in which Amalgam's still gives out a comfortable window against said spike damage.

 

You're mistaken. It's quite habitual in fact.

So much in fact that I do it even when there's no benefit from the DR or CC Immunity on the frame I'm playing. Years of using Roll as both a safer method of travel compared to bullet jumping and damage avoidance leads me to do it constantly for gap closing, simple travel, passive DR windows and actually avoiding hits.

In the past this was esp true for melee and still pretty much is since there was no auto parry, dodge is a quicker gap closer than running and the 75% DR is more than many weapon give you in addition to being from all directions not just a frontal cone. Need I mention that idiotic parry stun from CC attacks.

Spoiler

 

I almost forgot. +%Dodge speed also reduces the window on dodge roll landings to prevent hard landings and the distance covered with an aim-glide roll.

Spoiler

 

I probably use Dodge 100 times between these runs and a 60% reduction in DR window adds up regardless if you're purposefully dodging specific attacks.

+%Dodge speed just adds more room for error in multiple aspects of combat to reduce and prevent damage and the only thing you get out of it is the ability to change directions more quickly which you don't really need to do if you dodge correctly in the first place. You can claim it's preference but it would just cause me to make more mistakes and take more damage just like when I play Mirage and end up using dodge twice as much and still get beaned at random anyways.

[Renegade343]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

You're mistaken. It's quite habitual in fact.

So much in fact that I do it even when there's no benefit from the DR or CC Immunity on the frame I'm playing. Years of using Roll as both a safer method of travel compared to bullet jumping and damage avoidance leads me to do it constantly for gap closing, simple travel, passive DR windows and actually avoiding hits.

So yeah, you don't exactly rely on DR from rolls. From what I seen in the videos, you tend to use rolls for gap closing and traveling, rather than DR.

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I almost forgot. +%Dodge speed also reduces the window on dodge roll landings to prevent hard landings and the distance covered with an aim-glide roll.

Again, with a bit of practice, avoiding hard landings is not an issue. As for aim-glide rolling, distance difference is basically less than a meter. It's not going to be noticeable in missions.

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I probably use Dodge 100 times between these runs and a 60% reduction in DR window adds up regardless if you're purposefully dodging specific attacks.

I watched the videos, and you're using it more for movement than actually reducing damage in general. I mean, that's still fine (I do it as well), but to claim that the majority of yours rolls are for damage reduction is a bit of a stretch (with your Trinity video, Blessing and Link's practically doing all that general DR work for you). I don't go around saying that I use rolls because I always want that 75% DR, I use rolls because I need it for CC immunity, movement, and DR against incoming spike damage.

And for the Rhino Kuva Survival, there was barely any rolling at all, which is... ok, maybe you don't need it or whatever, but it's definitely not helping your case there.

4 hours ago, Xzorn said:

+%Dodge speed just adds more room for error in multiple aspects of combat to reduce and prevent damage and the only thing you get out of it is the ability to change directions more quickly which you don't really need to do if you dodge correctly in the first place. You can claim it's preference but it would just cause me to make more mistakes and take more damage just like when I play Mirage and end up using dodge twice as much and still get beaned at random anyways.

It's basically practice with Amalgam rolls. I never said it'll be a seamless transition.

[Xzorn]

51 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

I watched the videos, and you're using it more for movement than actually reducing damage in general. I mean, that's still fine (I do it as well), but to claim that the majority of yours rolls are for damage reduction is a bit of a stretch (with your Trinity video, Blessing and Link's practically doing all that general DR work for you). I don't go around saying that I use rolls because I always want that 75% DR, I use rolls because I need it for CC immunity, movement, and DR against incoming spike damage.

And for the Rhino Kuva Survival, there was barely any rolling at all, which is... ok, maybe you don't need it or whatever, but it's definitely not helping your case there.

It's basically practice with Amalgam rolls. I never said it'll be a seamless transition.

 

You're right I use it a lot for mobility. I mentioned it was for Mobility and Defense. The DR is just an ambient bonus if you do it much as I tend to. The window of DR and distance being shorter just makes +%Dodge Speed unappealing because I use it for both. If I'm going through a room of 5 Ancients I'm not going to try to time their hook attacks I'm just going to spam Dodge through the room in which case the slower animation and increased distance is more ideal.

I think the main difference here is you like the more spunky vector changes in movement while I prefer the extra security in a longer animation. I believe my method is better for scaling but there's really no way to prove that unless we did something silly like a Banshee + Bow run and I haven't legit played in a year now.

The Rhino run is me kinda showing habitual use. Rhino gets nothing from Dodge over a bullet jump, he also gets nothing from blocking though most often I'm picking a slide attack over a dodge long as there's some good momentum going; I'm still blocking while moving and Rolling. The fact I bother to do either at all was mostly the point in showing that video. I just do it. Always, every frame. Constantly. I probably couldn't stop doing it if I wanted after so long.

[Renegade343]

8 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

If I'm going through a room of 5 Ancients I'm not going to try to time their hook attacks I'm just going to spam Dodge through the room in which case the slower animation and increased distance is more ideal.

I just roll to a piece of cover by instinct, and then imagine I hear their little hooks tink against said cover. Rolling through them is not always the best case, even with normal roll, as they could stagger their hook shots.

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I think the main difference here is you like the more spunky vector changes in movement while I prefer the extra security in a longer animation. I believe my method is better for scaling but there's really no way to prove that unless we did something silly like a Banshee + Bow run and I haven't legit played in a year now.

I mean, if you end up using Rolling Guard with Banshee, then Amalgam roll does kind of edge out to give you a bit more mileage for your invulnerability.