Hydroid Rework 2.0?

[Ceadeus]

So we've seen that there's a new Hydroid deluxe coming, but Hydroid is still in a pretty bad spot after his last rework flop.  I'm wondering if we're going to see another rework and/or expanding on the changes that we've already gotten as an accurate description of Hydroid's old rework was "Wide as the ocean, but deep as a puddle".  What this description is trying to say is that, just because Hydroid got a lot of really small tweaks pretty much all across his kit, doesn't make it good.  Hydroid is obviously better than he was with the scaling damage for his puddle and his tentacles being a touch less spastic, but overall he's still the same Pilfering Swarm Bot that he was before the rework, only now he can sit in a puddle all match to maybe kill a couple things that happen by too.  I think we can all agree that being forced into a small, slow paced, restrictive ability to get any kind of real damage is a pretty bad way to be, especially when that damage only really keeps up if you run an augment for a DIFFERENT ability.

Since this is the second time Hydroid's come up for potential changes, I'm just gonna revitalize an old post I'd already made since it's still relevant.
 

Quote

Hydroid - Yes, wett boi is back again, hopefully for a proper rework this time.  That is not to say that Hydroid's last touch up wasn't a good step in the right direction, but rather just that it didn't really address any of the actual PROBLEMS with Hydroid. (Speaking as someone who played Hydroid constantly after his release, I know.)

Deep Tendril:  Just let this be 100%.  The tentacles already struggle to actually grab anything meaningful, why force Hydroid players to sit there hopping around over and over hoping to proc this passive?

Tempest Barrage:  This ability was marketed to us as a simulation of Hydroid "calling his ship and firing the cannons on his enemies", so simply teach whatever crewmen are firing those cannons to aim.  Rather than having the ability just randomly cover the shown area the whole time, make it so that it fires randomly until an enemy enters that zone and then all shots are focused on them.  This will greatly improve its damage, CC, and the utility of his augment without the need for the puddle meta first.

Tidal Surge:  First and foremost I'd like to see a function for this ability where it changes size based on elevation.  A surge on the ground will just be the normal bump of a wave that knocks people over, a surge from high up in the air will make a tsunami that sweeps up the room.  Secondly, I'd like to see some more synergy with the following puddle changes, which I'll outline under that ability to avoid making people read back and forth.

Undertow:  Undertow saw some really great improvements to its viability in the last batch of changes, but it still remains one of the most polarizing abilities in the game.  Personally I would like to see it get the "stack" treatment that we've been seeing a lot of successful frames/reworks use lately.  For every enemy damaged/killed in Undertow, Hydroid gains a stack.  With every stack Hydroid gains, Undertow grows larger (also increasing the grab radius).  This allows Hydroid to truly become a terror of the deep oceans, rather than a kinda dangerous puddle.  As for the synergy with Tidal Surge I mentioned, the movement in Undertow would stay, but would now consume half of your stacks when you do it so that you can't simply maintain this massive puddle and move it all across the map without any drawback.  Stacks would also decay when not in the puddle.

Tentacle Swarm:  Tentacle Swarm used to be a perfectly viable damage dealer back when Hydroid first came out, but over the years it's fallen off into being pretty weak as far as DPS goes.  A nice addition that would also make use of that Kraken head we got would be to make it so that the tentacles periodically would bring an enemy over to the head and pull it under the map to simulate them being eaten, doing massive damage to that enemy.  Beyond that all I think this ability really needs is a simple rework of the tentacle animations so that rather than swinging the enemies around, they simply coil around them and "crush" them for their damage, making them easier to hit for players as well.

 

[0_The_F00l]

Hydroid is acceptably OK at the moment, 

Only issue is he is heavily dependent on his augments, if he has no augments he is mediocre at best. 

I believe he needs either mechanical or statical changes that make him useable without augments, not both. 

[Ceadeus]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Hydroid is acceptably OK at the moment, 

Only issue is he is heavily dependent on his augments, if he has no augments he is mediocre at best. 

I believe he needs either mechanical or statical changes that make him useable without augments, not both. 

Hydroid is far from ok.  That's not to say he's 100% helpless but he's basically like pre-rework Saryn where all of his power really only comes from one ability, only he's even worse because not only does he need an augment for that ability to keep up, but it also affects a smaller area and is significantly slower and more energy costly.  The only other thing he's semi-good for is his Pilfering Swarm augment, which is obviously more of a farming tool than an actual helpful combat tool.

The raw stat increases he would need to make him "good" would be pretty crazy when stacked up against the new era of "scaling" damage Warframes we've been getting that can do the exact same stuff Hydroid does but quicker, more efficiently, and with more mobility and flexibility.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

For the record. Hydroid was in a really good spot after his rework. But then ESO came in and completely shifted the meta to a DPS focus.

[Ceadeus]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

For the record. Hydroid was in a really good spot after his rework. But then ESO came in and completely shifted the meta to a DPS focus.

No he wasn't?  He was better than he was and people were going nuts about his puddle damage potential, but that's about it.  His 1 is still a gamble on whether it'll even hit and does next to no damage itself, his 2 is just a bullet jump on steroids (Super Jump 2.0), the puddle even with its crazy damage potential still takes a long time relative to other frames to even get that high not to mention it's a smaller potential range than basically every other "DPS" focused frame's goto ability, and his 4 has both the same problems as his 1 as well as still being annoyingly spastic with how it moves enemies around.

Even content creators with great clickbait titles like "INFINITE DAMAGE PUDDLE!?" still agreed that he was ultimately lackluster and that the rework definitely could've had a lot more to it.  Basically all Hydroid received in his rework was the puddle meta and QoL tweaks.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ceadeus

[0_The_F00l]

4 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Hydroid is far from ok.  That's not to say he's 100% helpless but he's basically like pre-rework Saryn where all of his power really only comes from one ability, only he's even worse because not only does he need an augment for that ability to keep up, but it also affects a smaller area and is significantly slower and more energy costly.  The only other thing he's semi-good for is his Pilfering Swarm augment, which is obviously more of a farming tool than an actual helpful combat tool.

The raw stat increases he would need to make him "good" would be pretty crazy when stacked up against the new era of "scaling" damage Warframes we've been getting that can do the exact same stuff Hydroid does but quicker, more efficiently, and with more mobility and flexibility.

You do know that the tentacle damage is true damage that bypasses all resistance of armor and shields. 

His undertow also does scaling damage based on enemies maximum health (the type is impact so its kinda meh) , 

It is already scalable, enough , just that the damage itself is very minor in the beginning. 

He will not be able to manage enemies above lvl 60 cause the base damage values are barely going to scratch them and the rate of scaling is also small. 

And as I mentioned, heavily dependent on augments and very mediocre without it. 

[TheGrimCorsair]

He's fine as is.

[Ceadeus]

9 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You do know that the tentacle damage is true damage that bypasses all resistance of armor and shields. 

His undertow also does scaling damage based on enemies maximum health (the type is impact so its kinda meh) , 

It is already scalable, enough , just that the damage itself is very minor in the beginning. 

He will not be able to manage enemies above lvl 60 cause the base damage values are barely going to scratch them and the rate of scaling is also small. 

And as I mentioned, heavily dependent on augments and very mediocre without it. 

You just said yourself that he can't compete with stuff past level 60.  That's REALLY bad.  That's like trash tier kind of bad.

1 minute ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

He's fine as is.

How?  What does he do well besides Pilfering Swarm?

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ceadeus

[kapn655321]

Some ideas shopped from a thread I made months back.

Rain Storm: (One hand, all upper body fast cast. Very spammable, stacks into duration similar to recasting Amesha's 2. Does not alert enemies. No dmg.)
       Cast a rain storm causing enemies random knockdowns. Enemies killed within it's effect have a 15% improved chance to drop energy orbs.
   If charged:
       Increase duration and range of storm.
       Reduce detection of ally gunfire within range by 75% and visibility by 50%.
   If cast from Undertow:
       Add Chance to jam enemy guns.
       Reduce enemy damage and speed by 20%. This effect is removed on leaving Undertow.

Tidal Surge: (Improve directional mobility, cast time, and associated delays. Ground based Cloud walker style.)
      Give function of Tidal Impunity augment to wash off status/put out fires.
   If cast from Undertow:
      Remain in place, and wash enemies away with up to 15m from outside of puddle.
      This allows you to keep eximus out of your puddle.

Undertow: As Is.
      Curative Undertow augment changes to 30% health gained over 3 seconds.
      stack adds every 1.5 seconds, only applies/drains energy when ally health is missing.

Rip Current: (Channel)
     Creates a swirling pool of water where cast, that traps enemies, and negates enemy AoE status/Ancient Healer links.
     Attacks by party members into the rip current now divides the damage among all trapped enemies.
   If active in Undertow:
     Increases range of pool by 30%, as you become the vortex.
     Rain storm will now deal damage.
Abilities improved during this state.
   1 leaves puddles for enemies to slip on.
   2's wave now houses the Kraken which Pulls enemies in with tentacles. (Become ground based 'Nidus Larva' you control.)

Pilfering Tentacles augment: Tentacles spring from the Rip Current to drag enemies in.
All enemies within the Rip Current will drop additional loot. (same rate)


No more aiming at tentacles. Better stealth kit. Situational combo synergies.

Edited October 30, 2019 by kapn655321

[0_The_F00l]

38 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

You just said yourself that he can't compete with stuff past level 60.  That's REALLY bad.  That's like trash tier kind of bad.

Nope, I said he can't damage em. 

Taking an enemy out of the picture for a few seconds (or entire rounds) is still a viable option, 

That's why I am saying a stats boost to his abilities would be just as good for making him viable past that point. 

[(XBOX)ShadowBlood89]

hydriod had abit of a rework to have synergy with all of his abiliies

[-BA-NeoNexus5]

my problem on use hydriod is his default casting speed... his casting speed is soooooo slow... it take too much time to charge his ability on use even i install natural talent i still feel clunky when use him.. if de boost his stat and make him cast ability faster it will ok for me.

[kapn655321]

Just now, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

hydriod had abit of a rework to have synergy with all of his abiliies

He did, and they were an improvement.
The game has been adding new enemy types, and increasing the scope of it's combat.
He's falling behind when it comes to likability, and long term staying power in later game.

Don't get me wrong, he's still my main.
I hate to admit there's a reason people only use him to spam tentacles..

His whole kit is like a random chance to CC.
His 4 is janky, his 2 clumsy.. He could use some tweaking.

[Ceadeus]

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Nope, I said he can't damage em. 

Taking an enemy out of the picture for a few seconds (or entire rounds) is still a viable option, 

That's why I am saying a stats boost to his abilities would be just as good for making him viable past that point. 

It's not though.  That's precisely why Vauban is getting his rework was that's ALL he did was "take enemies out of the picture" but nobody cares about a permanently CC'd enemy blocking their progress, in every scenario it would be better to take one of the infinitely better scaling frames and just kill them.

6 minutes ago, (XB1)ShadowBlood89 said:

hydriod had abit of a rework to have synergy with all of his abiliies

He did.  And he "technically" does, though most of those synergies are pretty useless due to other limitations that hold them back from doing what you'd expect them to do.  So you're not wrong, but that doesn't make him "good".
 

[0_The_F00l]

23 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

. .. infinitely better.... just kill them.

Just reducing you statement to the crux of what you want to say. 

You just want everything to be like Saryn I suppose,

I personally enjoy playing with vauban, slow night Equinox, range and Nyx, it's a personal preference where everyone else 

Not everything needs to be a one hit killing machine, the fact that that's how the game has become is something for a different discussion to consider. 

[Ceadeus]

Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

Just reducing you statement to the crux of what you want to say. 

You just want everything to be like Saryn I suppose,

I personally enjoy playing with vauban, slow night Equinox, range and Nyx, it's a personal preference where everyone else 

Not everything needs to be a one hit killing machine, the fact that that's how the game has become is something for a different discussion to consider. 

No.  Not everything needs to be a one-hit kill and not everything needs to be Saryn, but if we're talking about effectiveness, then everything DOES need to be able to reliably defeat at minimum level 60 content in a timely manner to be considered even "viable".

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, Ceadeus said:

No.  Not everything needs to be a one-hit kill and not everything needs to be Saryn, but if we're talking about effectiveness, then everything DOES need to be able to reliably defeat at minimum level 60 content in a timely manner to be considered even "viable".

And he is perfectly viable for that. He is just not good in any specific role without his augments. 

Besides defeating enemies is best left to weapons unless you are asking for a dps frame. 

Which you say you aren't? I am not sure. 

[Ceadeus]

Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

And he is perfectly viable for that. He is just not good in any specific role without his augments. 

Besides defeating enemies is best left to weapons unless you are asking for a dps frame. 

Which you say you aren't? I am not sure. 

He isn't though.  You said yourself he can't compete with level 60+ enemies.  He doesn't have the damage for it, and all of his CC is more tedious than actually helpful due to bad design choices.

And as we've seen with Vauban, there's no such thing as a non-DPS frame.  If your frame doesn't have some kind of way to deal big damage relatively easily, it's bad.  That's just how it is anymore.  Sitting around in a puddle for 20 minutes being unable to affect anything outside a 15m radius on top of needing extra time to ramp up your damage on every single new enemy you try to attack isn't "relatively easy".

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Ceadeus said:

If your frame doesn't

Trinity. Her kit makes up for it in other ways.
Hydroid has some stealth in his kit, decent CC, but that does limit him in missions that are all about quick kills people can control.
That is a surprising amount of missions, so we see his balance cause him to fall a bit flat in those common instances.
...unless he's tentacle spamming for his augment. The loot makes up for the lack of other functions there.
That's why we only ever see him doing that.

I agree his not quite in the best spot. Not to say he's not enjoyable or Super useful for Many other mission types.
For exterminate and survival style, he has a very narrow scope of function.

I can see where both of you guys are coming from on this one.
 

[Ceadeus]

1 minute ago, kapn655321 said:

Trinity. Her kit makes up for it in other ways.
Hydroid has some stealth in his kit, decent CC, but that does limit him in missions that are all about quick kills people can control.
That is a surprising amount of missions, so we see his balance cause him to fall a bit flat in those common instances.
...unless he's tentacle spamming for his augment. The loot makes up for the lack of other functions there.
That's why we only ever see him doing that.

I agree his not quite in the best spot. Not to say he's not enjoyable or Super useful for Many other mission types.
For exterminate and survival style, he has a very narrow scope of function.

I can see where both of you guys are coming from on this one.
 

You were saying?

[0_The_F00l]

1 minute ago, Ceadeus said:

He isn't though.  You said yourself he can't compete with level 60+ enemies.

I will reiterate with clarity, as you seem to keep misrepresenting my statement  "he cannot do much damage above lvl 60 using his tentacles or puddle alone but can still finish the mission fine" 

I have managed my sorties, arbitrations and floods with him just fine (solo, pre made squad as well as public) with a decent strength and moderate duration build employing either the healing or corrosive augment depe ding on the mission. 

5 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

.  He doesn't have the damage for it, and all of his CC is more tedious than actually helpful due to bad design choices.

In agreement, tedious and lacking in certain aspects which loses its charm after the 5th cast. Hence would need either mechanical or stat based changes. 

6 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

.And as we've seen with Vauban, there's no such thing as a non-DPS frame.  If your frame doesn't have some kind of way to deal big damage relatively easily, it's bad.  

Your opinion, I don't agree with it. 

7 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

.  That's just how it is anymore.  Sitting around in a puddle for 20 minutes being unable to affect anything outside a 15m radius on top of needing extra time to ramp up your damage on every single new enemy you try to attack isn't "relatively easy".

Boring, not how I play, but you do you, and play the lazy way if you want nothing inherently wrong with it. 

[Ceadeus]

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I will reiterate with clarity, as you seem to keep misrepresenting my statement  "he cannot do much damage above lvl 60 using his tentacles or puddle alone but can still finish the mission fine" 

I have managed my sorties, arbitrations and floods with him just fine (solo, pre made squad as well as public) with a decent strength and moderate duration build employing either the healing or corrosive augment depe ding on the mission. 

And I could get through an Eris Akkad mission with Vauban and be the primary damage dealer and take the least damage, doesn't mean the kit is good or can't be made better.  Literally Vauban even has better potential scaling even pre-rework than Hydroid does now.  You can pick any random piece of gear in the game and "get through" the mission, but that's not the same as being viable.
 

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

In agreement, tedious and lacking in certain aspects which loses its charm after the 5th cast. Hence would need either mechanical or stat based changes. 

Hence why I made a post detailing changes because raw stats aren't a very flexible thing to play with for balance.

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Your opinion, I don't agree with it. 

Then why does every single frame with poor damage potential get reworked or buffed even if they had arguably great CC or other aspects?

8 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Boring, not how I play, but you do you, and play the lazy way if you want nothing inherently wrong with it. 

This isn't a discussion of preferences, obviously not many (if any) people WANT to sit in the puddle all match, but that's the only part of his kit that's actually viable to do anything with.  So if we're going to talk about his potential as a frame, then we throw preference out the window and talk about the hard facts, and the hard facts are that his kit is overall bad and/or underpowered, and his synergies are fragmented, awkward, and only in play as another DE Bandaid Fix^TM

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ceadeus

[Teridax68]

I think a major issue with Hydroid that's being overlooked right now is that a ton of his kit doesn't mesh with Parkour 2.0, because it forces him into either a really wooden animation (Tidal Surge), or pushes him to become completely immobile (Undertow). Simply being able to throw out tidal waves and cast pools from a distance, with perhaps the option to teleport to the wave or dive into the pool, would allow Hydroid to remain mobile while using his kit, which I think could significantly benefit his gameplay.

Beyond this, I particularly like the rework proposal for Tentacle Swarm: the ability itself is thematically cool, but sucks because of its haphazard CC. If the tentacles were to merely suspend enemies and line them up for headshots/finishers (and perhaps also offer some damage bonus when doing so), they'd be a much better setup ability. On the flipside, I don't think Deep Tendril by itself is really a salvageable effect, because our ground slams already provide CC, and will usually throw enemies out of the tentacle's reach. 

[Crousere]

Hydroid definitely could use some work. For starters: every augment should be part of his base skills

[0_The_F00l]

14 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

 

And I could get through an Eris Akkad mission with Vauban and be the primary damage dealer and take the least damage, doesn't mean the kit is good or can't be made better.  Literally Vauban even has better potential scaling even pre-rework than Hydroid does now.  You can pick any random piece of gear in the game and "get through" the mission, but that's not the same as being viable.

That is kinda the definition of viable -_-

18 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

.Then why does every single frame with poor damage potential get reworked or buffed even if they had arguably great CC or other aspects?

Not factually accurate or atleast not the full picture,

frames which are least popular (old Nyx, vauban, Wukong, new ember) or most disruptive (old chroma, older ember, old saryn) get reworked on higher priority. 

Frames like loki which have no damage potential intrinsically is still well liked and has not had a rework since... I can't even remember. 

Half the recently reworked frames don't even have CC potential. 

As to the query of why, It is an unfortunate state caused by all the powercreep making starchart to sortie level enemies a joke, and DE has shown repeatedly they don't know how to balance it. Again something for a different discussion. 

40 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

.  So if we're going to talk about his potential as a frame, then we throw preference out the window and talk about the hard facts, and the hard facts are that his kit is overall bad and/or underpowered, and his synergies are fragmented, awkward, and only in play as another DE Bandaid Fix^TM

That's an opinion, not a fact, poorly disguised by the way,

facts would need to be backed by statistics and values of usage and overall comparison with something of reference. 

I do agree that the synergies are fragmented and awkward though.