Hydroid Rework 2.0?

[Ceadeus]

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That is kinda the definition of viable -_-

No.  Viable means handling the content in a reasonable timeframe.  In a mass mob shooter, that is a fairly short amount of time.  Hydroid can't do that.

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

frames which are least popular (old Nyx, vauban, Wukong, new ember)

All had bad damage potential.  Hence why they were disliked.

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

(old chroma, older ember, old saryn) get reworked on higher priority. 

Nerfed.  The word you're looking for is nerfed.

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Frames like loki which have no damage potential intrinsically is still well liked and has not had a rework since... I can't even remember. 

Stealth modifiers are a massive potential damage source.

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Half the recently reworked frames don't even have CC potential. 

Like who?

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

As to the query of why, It is an unfortunate state caused by all the powercreep making starchart to sortie level enemies a joke, and DE has shown repeatedly they don't know how to balance it. Again something for a different discussion. 

Hence why any frame that can't at least compete at level 60 (the bottom of Sorties), is not good.

13 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That's an opinion, not a fact, poorly disguised by the way,

No.  Those are facts.  Supported by popular opinion, repeated analysis, and hard numbers.  There are objective standards we can set based on the expectations of the game loop and the time spent to achieve those expectations.  Hydroid can meet those expectations very slowly with the expense of two ability casts + ramp up time + energy drain over time, all of which needs to be repeated for every enemy or cluster of enemies that Hydroid takes on at a time, thus he falls short of the qualifications, making him "bad".
 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ceadeus

[Frenotx]

I'd like to be able to damage all enemies on a tentacle by shooting the tentacle, kind of like Zephyr's funnel clouds. It can be aggravating trying to shoot grabbed enemies with any sort of more precise weapon.

[0_The_F00l]

11 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

 

No.  Viable means handling the content in a reasonable timeframe.  In a mass mob shooter, that is a fairly short amount of time.  Hydroid can't do that.

Viable :

adjective, 

capable of working successfully; feasible.

Hmm, guess you refer a different dictionary. 

11 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

All had bad damage potential.  Hence why they were disliked.

True. 

11 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Nerfed.  The word you're looking for is nerfed.

Are you under the assumption that reworks exist only to buff things? Nerfs are also part of the equation. 

And Saryn would disagree with you. 

11 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Stealth modifiers are a massive potential damage source."

Indeed they are, as long as you have a melee weapon to take advantage of it. But none of his abilities directly do damage. 

If you were making the suggestion" all enemies under influence of tentacles take stealth damage " that would be a mechanical change to his ability, which is what I have been saying.

15 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Like who?

The last one, Wukong, is a good example I suppose 

17 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

 

Hence why any frame that can't at least compete at level 60 (the bottom of Sorties), is not good.

 

I already said I can finish the sorties and kuva floods as well as arbitrations, not sure if you are willfully ignoring those facts.

21 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

No.  Those are facts.  

So you say, 

22 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Supported by popular opinion,

Bandwagon fallacy. 

22 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

, repeated analysis, and hard numbers.  

Please share. 

"you can see it for yourself by all the posts" is not analysis or hard numbers.

23 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

.  There are objective standards we can set based on the expectations of the game loop and the time spent to achieve those expectations.  Hydroid can meet those expectations very slowly with the expense of two ability casts + ramp up time + energy drain over time, all of which needs to be repeated for every enemy or cluster of enemies that Hydroid takes on at a time, thus he falls short of the qualifications, making him "bad".

These are all mechanical and statistic parameters that you are complaining about, which I believe can make him better if tweaked suitably. 

The puddle does 2% of max enemy health per second and stacks, too bad its impact, which sucks against most enemies and effectively becomes very weak, an elemental effect + impact like cold perhaps (makes absolute sense to be cold underwater and be under presuure), this is a stat suggestion. 

It also is sad that it makes you immobile, would have been nice if you could cast it, pull in enemies and after jumping out it stays for a few seconds so you can push out all the weapon damage and then jump back in by rolling inside again. (imagine a shark jumping out blasting lasers and them jumping back in the water again), this is a mechanical suggestion .

The puddle remains the same ability but gets more aspects to it and allows you to play actively if you want. 

The tentacle on the other hand, could just make the enemies open to stealth damage as already suggested any damage recieved by tentacle is passed to enemies as stealth damage, that is enough of a mechanical boost to make it significant more effective while keeping the ability the same. 

[kapn655321]

55 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

 

 

10 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

 

Since you fellas seem to be on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to sentiments regarding Hydroid,
curious if you have any thoughts on the proposed changes I had mention.
Would they help to resolve concerns while staying true to his functions and kit?
Any suggestions or issues?

[0_The_F00l]

4 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

 

Since you fellas seem to be on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes to sentiments regarding Hydroid,
curious if you have any thoughts on the proposed changes I had mention.
Would they help to resolve concerns while staying true to his functions and kit?
Any suggestions or issues?

Seems more like a completely new frame to me, some sort of storm based one than hydroid honestly. 

Could be interesting, but is far too different from the current hydroid abilities for his 1 and 4.

Would suggest to put it as a new frame suggestion in the suggestion and feedback forum once you make something for the 2 and 3.

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Seems more like a completely new frame to me, some sort of storm based one than hydroid honestly. 

Could be interesting, but is far too different from the current hydroid abilities for his 1 and 4.

Would suggest to put it as a new frame suggestion in the suggestion and feedback forum once you make something for the 2 and 3.

More based on the water than the half cocked pirate theme. Thanks for the feedback.

[Ceadeus]

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Viable :

adjective, 

capable of working successfully; feasible.

Hmm, guess you refer a different dictionary. 

You really gonna sit here and be that kid that completely ignores all social norms to go "Uh technically it means this!"  Like obviously nobody's going around using textbook definitions for everything.  In videogames viable is not "usable".

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Are you under the assumption that reworks exist only to buff things? Nerfs are also part of the equation. 

And Saryn would disagree with you. 

They only received "reworks" because DE wanted to nerf their glaring outlier abilities but knew that the rest of their kit was not up to snuff to nerf them without some kind of compensation.  Chroma got a harsh nerf to his Vex Armor potential so he got some tweaks elsewhere.  Saryn was a 1-trick pony pressing a single button to nuke a room so they split her power up and made her more engaging for that power.  Ember walked through low level missions never seeing an enemy before it burnt to a crisp and DE said "But what about the new players' experience!" and nerfed her, they tried to compensate her but failed to do that so here we are at round 2.  (I have no idea why they have no problem with all the other frames that can do the same thing though...)

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Indeed they are, as long as you have a melee weapon to take advantage of it. But none of his abilities directly do damage. 

If you were making the suggestion" all enemies under influence of tentacles take stealth damage " that would be a mechanical change to his ability, which is what I have been saying.

No.  You've been saying to make statistical changes.  I proposed plenty of mechanical changes, you didn't propose tweaks or counters or whatever to those, you proposed "He only needs stat changes."

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The last one, Wukong, is a good example I suppose 

Wukong had CC with Iron Jab, Cloudwalker, and combos in Primal Fury.

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I already said I can finish the sorties and kuva floods as well as arbitrations, not sure if you are willfully ignoring those facts.

Compete not complete.  Competing as in competing with other frames and the expectations of the game.  Hydroid doesn't compete with other frames and takes too long and too much work to meet the expectations.

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Please share. 

"you can see it for yourself by all the posts" is not analysis or hard numbers.

If you want analysis take a look at any content creator, take a look at posts looking for ways to get a meta build for Hydroid that isn't "sit in the puddle", take a look at pretty much any source that has bothered to take the time to look over his kit as an actual contender against the rest of the warframe lineup and see that he just doesn't stack up for anything but being part of a loot squad.

For hard numbers I can't be bothered to sit here and do the math myself, but if you'd like them just take a look at the time it takes to kill a high level enemy with a Hydroid puddle setup vs the time it takes someone like say Gauss to do it with his armor stripping that doesn't even require any augment AND has good damage.  Take a look at the average number of shots that hit the enemies under Hydroid's CC's vs a frame like Limbo.  He's not "good" at anything.  He has one augment that very few frames can match with Pilfering Swarm, and he "can eventually" reach decent damage on high level enemies, not nearly as fast or efficiently as other frames mind you.

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

These are all mechanical and statistic parameters that you are complaining about, which I believe can make him better if tweaked suitably. 

The only statistical change I see making Hydroid competitive with other higher tier frames is if they vastly increase the damage ramp-up for Undertow so that it kills enemies quick enough that you can be almost constantly repositioning which still leaves glaring problems with his 1 and 4 and an effectively vestigial function for his 2.

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The puddle does 2% of max enemy health per second and stacks, too bad its impact, which sucks against most enemies and effectively becomes very weak, an elemental effect + impact like cold perhaps (makes absolute sense to be cold underwater and be under presuure), this is a stat suggestion. 

Even if they changed the damage type it would still be ridiculously slow no matter what without increasing other aspects that would only further enforce the "one-trick pony" puddle meta and still not allowing him to compete with other frames.

28 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It also is sad that it makes you immobile, would have been nice if you could cast it, pull in enemies and after jumping out it stays for a few seconds so you can push out all the weapon damage and then jump back in by rolling inside again. (imagine a shark jumping out blasting lasers and them jumping back in the water again), this is a mechanical suggestion .

Which would be fine to suggest, so why did you start this whole thing with "He only needs stat changes"????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ceadeus

[kapn655321]

39 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Seems more like a completely new frame to me

Now that you say that, I think I can shift some of those ideas around a bit,
and keep his old kit intact.

Hold 4 to cast tentacles within a tidal pool for duration instead of activating channel.
Hold 1 for tempest barrage, secondary functions originally proposed could be during 4 channel or with multiple stacks.

Same exact function, shooting base of 4 deals damage to all within it.

One thing I would change to improve on tentacles if they're staying is that holding 4 could paint a trail of where the tentacles should spawn.
Swiping the mouse across an area would make that where they spawn, rather than who-knows where currently.

I'll get back to it with your suggestion in mind.

Edited October 30, 2019 by kapn655321

[kapn655321]

Something just ocurred to me..

How badly is Hydroid's passive going to jack up Lifted enemies? =/
Tentacles might just Nope us out of combos. Could be a problem.

[0_The_F00l]

29 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

You really gonna sit here and be that kid that completely ignores all social norms to go "Uh technically it means this!"  Like obviously nobody's going around using textbook definitions for everything.  In videogames viable is not "usable".

Definitions do not change that drastically, you could have said he isn't great which I would have agreed with, 

But viable he is, try to maintain the scope of the situation if you are making genuine observations, exaggeration only makes your arguments less assertive. 

I already gave you the definition of viable, you are free to keep using the term incorrectly just know that people will call you out for being wrong accordingly. 

Enough about the English aspect, I believe we understand each other better now. 

29 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

 

They only received "reworks" because DE wanted to nerf their glaring outlier abilities but knew that the rest of their kit was not up to snuff to nerf them without some kind of compensation.  Chroma got a harsh nerf to his Vex Armor potential so he got some tweaks elsewhere.  Saryn was a 1-trick pony pressing a single button to nuke a room so they split her power up and made her more engaging for that power.  Ember walked through low level missions never seeing an enemy before it burnt to a crisp and DE said "But what about the new players' experience!" and nerfed her, they tried to compensate her but failed to do that so here we are at round 2.  (I have no idea why they have no problem with all the other frames that can do the same thing though...)

 

I will not comment on DEs behalf but they have a great dislike of set and forget playstyles as well as ones with potential of automation. 

Chroma of course was greatly overpowered, and still remains strong despite the changes. 

I expect Equinox to be next in line for a change. 

36 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

No.  You've been saying to make statistical changes.  I proposed plenty of mechanical changes, you didn't propose tweaks or counters or whatever to those, you proposed "He only needs stat changes."

Incorrect, I have mentioned stat or mechanic changes, you may want to read my original comment again. 

37 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

Wukong had CC with Iron Jab, Cloudwalker, and combos in Primal Fury.

 

Compete not complete.  Competing as in competing with other frames and the expectations of the game.  Hydroid doesn't compete with other frames and takes too long and too much work to meet the expectations.

I don't think anyone considered any of wukong abilities as CC, and competition is a two way street, you compare with the atrongest aspect of the other frame and he may be at the bottom. Not everyone can be the best at everything. 

40 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

If you want analysis take a look at any content creator, take a look at posts looking for ways to get a meta build for Hydroid that isn't "sit in the puddle", take a look at pretty much any source that has bothered to take the time to look over his kit as an actual contender against the rest of the warframe lineup and see that he just doesn't stack up for anything but being part of a loot squad.

For hard numbers I can't be bothered to sit here and do the math myself, but if you'd like them just take a look at the time it takes to kill a high level enemy with a Hydroid puddle setup vs the time it takes someone like say Gauss to do it with his armor stripping that doesn't even require any augment AND has good damage.  Take a look at the average number of shots that hit the enemies under Hydroid's CC's vs a frame like Limbo.  He's not "good" at anything.  He has one augment that very few frames can match with Pilfering Swarm, and he "can eventually" reach decent damage on high level enemies, not nearly as fast or efficiently as other frames mind you.

Despite me saying that "look at other posts" is not a statistical value or fact you still went there, you have nothing. 

Just proves my point, you are only having opinions (which is fine) , no facts to back it though. 

43 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

.The only statistical change I see making Hydroid competitive with other higher tier frames is if they vastly increase the damage ramp-up for Undertow so that it kills enemies quick enough that you can be almost constantly repositioning which still leaves glaring problems with his 1 and 4 and an effectively vestigial function for his 2.

Even if they changed the damage type it would still be ridiculously slow no matter what without increasing other aspects that would only further enforce the "one-trick pony" puddle meta and still not allowing him to compete with other frames.

Which would be fine to suggest, so why did you start this whole thing with "He only needs stat changes"????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

I already did mention it needs stats or mechanical changes, you probably did not read it, seems you only read parts which suit you. 

[0_The_F00l]

22 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Now that you say that, I think I can shift some of those ideas around a bit,
and keep his old kit intact.

Hold 4 to cast tentacles within a tidal pool for duration instead of activating channel.
Hold 1 for tempest barrage, secondary functions originally proposed could be during 4 channel or with multiple stacks.

Same exact function, shooting base of 4 deals damage to all within it.

One thing I would change to improve on tentacles if they're staying is that holding 4 could paint a trail of where the tentacles should spawn.
Swiping the mouse across an area would make that where they spawn, rather than who-knows where currently.

I'll get back to it with your suggestion in mind.

Just the top of my head, it could still mark an area as is, but it doesn't spawn tentacles if there are no enemies in the area. 

When an enemy enters an area they first get knocked down (cause slippery?) and then a new tentacle grabs them before they can get up. If they already get snagged by another tentacle while they are down a new tentacle doesn't spawn. 

Would be a significantly better area denial, currently it either spawns randomly or just under the nearest enemy. 

If there are no enemies on a tentacle it will go back under and can spawn elsewhere. 

Since there are limited paths that AI take, even fewer tentacle could make it work. 

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

it could still mark an area as is, but it doesn't spawn tentacles if there are no enemies in the area.

I'm all for some slippery mechanics and more knock down.
Thinking if it's all homing tentacles, it cements the aspects that require the least attention from the player.
Currently there's too much of, "Hydroid standing behind a doorway and just spamming 4."
If it's more rewarding to keep doing that, that's what we'll get for sure.

Granted, it could be easier for that purpose, and it was just an off the cuff idea.
He's got a tricky kit to mess with thematically. 😃

[Ceadeus]

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That's why I am saying a stats boost to his abilities would be just as good for making him viable past that point. 

 

[0_The_F00l]

10 minutes ago, Ceadeus said:

 

Seems you really only read parts that suit your rhetoric, and I am the kid here? 

6 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Hydroid is acceptably OK at the moment, 

Only issue is he is heavily dependent on his augments, if he has no augments he is mediocre at best. 

I believe he needs either mechanical or statical changes that make him useable without augments, not both. 

My very first comment. Emphasis on the bold statement. I see I have a typo in statistics, should probably correct that. But I am gonna leave it unedited to avoid you claiming I changed it later. 

Also, you are just showing more and more how you don't really care about the discussion and care about just proving others wrong. Not a healthy way to keep a discussion going. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by 0_The_F00l

[Tatann]

 

A thing I'd really like on him would be the ability to cast his 1 on himself (maybe with a hold key) and have the "tempest" following him, knocking down enemies around him (and applying corrosive proc if the augment is equipped)

It could make him a better melee killer (lots of finishers). I don't mind it being a channeled ability, or with an increased duration

PS: I know it sounds like a water version of Ember's World On Fire (Waterworld ?) but with a smaller range and barely no damage, it couldn't be used to nuke through low level maps and ruin the fun for new players

Edited October 30, 2019 by Tatann

[Jhura]

With Hydroid I don't think we need sweeping changes, just ones that put his abilities in line with other frames.

 

Passive: Should always proc, end of story.

 

1st Ability: This one only does max damage at full charge, which is pretty sad since other frames have similar abilities that do more damage and are insta-cast. Proposed change: let it always do max damage but holding it locks on to X targets and hits them with an initial blast when the barrage starts.

 

2nd Ability: This just needs the change: hold skill to continue to move forward at the expense of x energy per y meters. That way, you can quick tap for that quick wave to group and knock over enemies, or long hold to gather enemies and cover more ground.

 

3rd Ability: Really is fine but I do like the idea of it growing in size when it kills enemies, size reverts when you use your 2 or leave the puddle.

 

4th Ability: This one is fun too, as it does what it is supposed to, but it would be neat to see the kraken head do something rather than just sit there. Like maybe have a final burst of damage when the ability ends or something.

 

All of Hydroid's skills are ok, just need some tweaks to makes them more on par with other frames and he will be in a much better place.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Jhura

[xxswatelitexx]

15 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

Nerfed.  The word you're looking for is nerfed.

Chroma actually had a Massive OP buff - then it got nerfed which was reasonable

Saryn got buffed only people who complain about nerf is she can no longer Afk place spores on her Clone

You know the people who complain - "Oh my god I can't stand still and do nothing!" - Why bother playing the game?  Just watch a Streamer play warframe

Ember 2.0 was Probably best described as a nerf

Ember 3.0 is a buff. 

 

[punipunichen]

Hydroid does need a rework, but not as needy as ash and loki...

[Fenr3r]

Have to agree honestly, even with being a fan of Hydroid, Though I knew he was lacking compared to other frames, I still found his kit quite a bit of fun when I first picked him up. Thus I was really looking forward to his rework, especially with limbos rework having come before, and I was a fan. Alas after playing with it extensively, cracks started forming. Seeming like they where wary of making him too strong, and took a far too safe approach. It ended up a massive nerf to the feel of his game play, with the reduction in the range of his abilities, and the terribly long charge times added just to get full performance of his abilities. Charging can be kept, but must be sped up to similar speed of Nezha's halo

The changes I'd make would be:

Replace his passive with: percent chance to remove statuses, along with becoming intangible to attacks for 10s~. Becoming intangible like water. His current passive has always been unreliable, and even when it triggered it was of little value.

Barrage - Buff the duration, it as it is excruciatingly low at current, even a 10s base would be fine. Boost the instances he can have to up to maybe 4, having the effect range finally affected by mods. If they're so hesitant extra instances may require charging, but with reduced to charge time.

and while this is a minor change. I'd prefer to make the effect be that of water spouts that spring up from the ground. As having missiles raining down is very baffling with the majority of the game taking place indoors. Also a minor buff to it's augment, having it leave corrosive puddles at the end of the ability's duration for some additional zone control.

His 2-3 could go with no notable change, though a reverse to the nerf of his 3's range would help it immensely. Would make it more impactful, and also improve the usability of it's augment as well.

Tentacle Swarm finally, the constant problem with this has always been it's inconsistent and uncontrollable nature, sharing this with zephyr and her tornadoes. Similarly it and tornadoes could benefit from having a constant effect within the ability's range, while having the tentacles/ tornadoes as additional feature. Something akin to a whirlpool providing constant cc/dmg in the center while tentacles are scattered throughout. Un-nerfing it's range, no longer needing to charge for it, as you feel forced to charge up for it at current. Charge time reduced, while charging now solely increases the number of tentacles created.

Have had these ideas for a long time, and while you could go further. Something like this shouldn't be too hard to implement.