Other players not engaging their lichs blocking other lich spawns

[SordidDreams]

8 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

you also don't need anything from the kuva lich missions since it's the same you get from normal missions

Except the lich does steal from normal missions also. I did say that already, try to keep up, please.

8 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

you do realise that it's only one planet you get stolen from when you don't engage with the kuva lich

But you keep demanding that people do engage with the kuva lich. Like that's your whole thing, demanding that people stab it.

9 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

it's also one tenth of recources. what you need are mods and most mods can be farmed everywhere. not to mention next to no mods get actually stolen. 

It's more than one tenth if people follow your advice and stab the lich. Oh, and anything can get stolen, even rivens from sorties. Sure, it's not impossible to power through that, but it's asking a lot.

16 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

you also make it sound that level 100 enemies are the hardest thing ever. it's warframe. it's not really hard.

If you can handle them, sure, they're not hard. If you've only just arrived at Sedna, they're going to kick your a**. Sounds to me like you've forgotten what it's like to be a newb. Almost like you're out of touch. If only someone had told you.

17 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

why would anyone in ANY game do something that is way above their level?

Because they followed your bad advice and selfish demands and leveled up their lich too high for them to handle? We've been though this already, you're just repeating yourself again.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Hiirios said:

and while your lich is there no other can spawn and people probably loose a chance to kill the lich in the mission and some after that if they get in the same group with you again. look at the exsample above.

The same argument goes both ways. Someone may actually need the murmurs more than someone killing their lich, one isnt more important than the other, both are also hidnered by RNG in the same exact way. If you want a specific thing done, dont jump into a pug that has several variables to it that may hinder you.

What is so hard to understand with that concept?

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

I agree that it is a poorly designed system, I also think DE didn't put much thought behind many aspects of this update, not just lich difficulty, but again if you aren't dealing with your lich, you are preventing other liches from spawning which means you are disrupting the gameplay of other players, which you have no right to do so.

I'll say it one last time, there is no justifiable excuse to being selfish, period. It is not like the game isn't giving you any options. You can always play the content solo if you don't want to level up your lich.

As I said above, it goes both ways.

One single approach isnt the correct approach, everyone needs different things to get to the point of beating their lich. If you expect something specific, go solo. In pugs everything goes since everyone needs and benefits the most from something different than another player. You are just as selfish for wanting your lich dead as the guy not touching his because he still needs murmurs. You killing or dying to your lich in such a case is just as much a drawback for that guy as him leaving his lich alone so you cant get yours to spawn.

And until the system changes, everyone that wants it done a specific way should just go solo or accept the RNG nature of pugs.

 

Edited November 11, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[Hiirios]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb SordidDreams:

Except the lich does steal from normal missions also. I did say that already, try to keep up, please.

But you keep demanding that people do engage with the kuva lich. Like that's your whole thing, demanding that people stab it.

It's more than one tenth if people follow your advice and stab the lich. Oh, and anything can get stolen, even rivens from sorties. Sure, it's not impossible to power through that, but it's asking a lot.

If you can handle them, sure, they're not hard. If you've only just arrived at Sedna, they're going to kick your a**. Sounds to me like you've forgotten what it's like to be a newb. Almost like you're out of touch. If only someone had told you.

Because they followed your bad advice and selfish demands and leveled up their lich too high for them to handle? We've been though this already, you're just repeating yourself again.

your whole argument is that it's too difficult. ofcourse for anyone who just got to sedna it's hard. but why would anybody jump from a sedna mission to a 60+ mission? that's just dumb. not to mention that the public setting makes it pretty easy and there are enough ways to make it extremely easy. 

the whole stealing thing is annoying but i have never seen that liches steal anything big like rivens. 

i ask of people to fight their lich because they decided to engage with the system and actively hinder people to do so too if they do not.

if you can't handle the kuva lich system don't engage with it. the same could be said about something like sorties or endurance run. if you can't make it through them don't do them. and what i mean is they should not even start kuva lich missions if you can't handle them. just so you get it too.

[chaotea]

20 hours ago, KosmicKerman said:

And those same players are likely to need the help of a squad to kill their Lich. The problem is they want the help of a squad to kill the Lich, when they are ready, but otherwise don’t care about what the squad wants/needs. See the problem here?  My advice for these players is to go get the mods/gear you need to handle these missions. They are really not that hard. a good melee is all you need. And with the change to melee there are so many viable options now. 

Oh i agree in general, but I can also understand what they're thinking. It would be cool if you could do something to the lich to level them that was optional. Raising there level, and perhaps adding stats to thier levels. Also, making Lichs de-spawn after getting downed more than 5 times or something.

[chaotea]

On 2019-11-10 at 3:07 PM, White_Matter said:

Then they shouldn't have a lich in the first place.

Think thats unfair for people. Especially as they start at around level 50-70.

[chaotea]

On 2019-11-10 at 3:57 PM, Saber-142 said:

Uh just because I'm mr 10 does not mean I should not have a level 50-60 lich and avoid getting it to 100+ or not be able to try and get a cool *new* kuva weapon and iirc you can actually get more murmurs by keeping the lich alive..

Murmur collection is faster and easier with other people 🙂 while killing your lich or at least trying to is easier solo.

Realistically either option will be considered 'selfish' at the end of the day and is bound to "get on someone's nerves"

This does need to be changed.

Yea, im high level and all, but I see this as an issue more with the system than the players.

They should tweak it so that higher levels give more murmur points, giving more risk / reward.

Also, give all players murmur for someone interacting with a lich, to try to prevent people forcing extraction while your fighting yours (just as bad as people not killing liches as i see it).

Finally, maybe only have your lich level after clearing a planet. But make the liches weapon gain bonus stat % each level (doesnt have to be much, maybe just 2%, making a bonus 10% for getting to level 5)

[SordidDreams]

52 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

your whole argument is that it's too difficult. ofcourse for anyone who just got to sedna it's hard. but why would anybody jump from a sedna mission to a 60+ mission?

Because, as I said, they need to get rid of a lich that they inadvertently activated and that's being a PITA. We've been through that, keep up!

52 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

i have never seen that liches steal anything big like rivens.

I've seen screenshots. For someone giving me lip about not knowing much about the lich system due to having only done one lich, you don't seem to know much yourself.

53 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

i ask of people to fight their lich because they decided to engage with the system and actively hinder people to do so too if they do not.

Yes, but that hindrance is very minor compared to how much they would hinder themselves by stabbing the lich, which is why it's selfish to ask them to do so. How many times am I going to have to explain that?

54 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

if you can't handle the kuva lich system don't engage with it. the same could be said about something like sorties or endurance run. if you can't make it through them don't do them. and what i mean is they should not even start kuva lich missions if you can't handle them. just so you get it too.

That argument will become valid when undone sorties start stealing your resources.

[JackHargreav]

6 hours ago, Hiirios said:

tbh. yes.

the death not really a problem as the only thing that actually happens is that the lich levels up, which it will do anyway since you don't know the order of the 3 mods and you have to guess it. not to mention that it's not a bit problem when you runin a squad since you are most likely to breese through missions as a group.

AND it allows other people to spawn their lich which they could fight so you gain murmurs from it.

No.

If I die the lich levels up takes an other planet and the thralls that could give me more progress will not spawn as much as they would with the lich around.

And I should get all these negatives just because there is a chance that your lich will spawn in. And if you kill that lich you get no negatives at all.

So I should #*!% over my own progress for nothing.

Edited November 11, 2019 by JackHargreav

[Hiirios]

Gerade eben schrieb JackHargreav:

No.

If I die the lich levels up takes an other planet and the thralls that could we more progress will not spawn as mich as they would with the lich around.

And I should get all these negatives just because there is a chance that your lich will spawn in. And if you kill that lich you get no negatives at all.

So I should #*!% over my own progress for nothing.

i gotta say it is far more efficient to leave the lich low and let him convert nearby enemies. just tried it and it's damn amazing.

that said i still don't see why i should screw over other people in public when i can do this way better and faster solo. 

if anything i'd look for a group that yould do it like that but wouldn't do it in public because i know others would like to at least know there is a chance that their lich spawns

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-11-03 at 11:21 AM, Ralyks said:

Players ignoring their lichs and blocking spawns for the rest of the squad is a REALLY BAD PROBLEM RIGHT NOW. Its faster to farm murmurs in a squad so playing solo cripples your farm. Its now taking almost twice as long to complete a lich encounter because inconsiderate players ignore their lich preventing mine from spawning.

There needs to be a despawn timer, a vote to kick, a something. Because players are A******s.

Sorry, not gonna waste a revive or level up mine, the only reason I will allow myself on that is because I have the mods and all the requiems needed, BTW, for some reason there was a mission I was doing and people wanted me to kill my Lich to spawn theirs but somehow theirs spawned anyway so maybe more than one can be around at the same time, need confirmation.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2019-11-03 at 1:17 PM, Askorti said:

They're not difficult, but they're a huge pain in the keister to down. At level 5 they have stupid levels of DR and it takes a long time to kill them. It's not challenging, just a nuisance. Also, my particular Kuva Lich had the ability to teleport and swap places with me, which made him bug out several times and teleport to places I couldn't hit it, like behind a wall.

The whole issue with the Kuva lich and the whole gameplay surrounding it is that it involves no difficulty whatsoever, just layer upon layer of nuisance and annoyance. And I'm not even some sort of veteran with pimped out kits that can do ungodly amounts of damage. And even I don't find it challenging. Just annoying.

Finally someone who understands, some of us just don't feel like bringing our immortal frame with meta gear to every single mission, so much for that guy saying "it removes choice" when discussing a nerf, I like to play Nova, she can be amazing but she dies in one hit to certain enemies, Lv50+ are stupid enough as it is.

[White_Matter]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The same argument goes both ways. Someone may actually need the murmurs more than someone killing their lich, one isnt more important than the other, both are also hidnered by RNG in the same exact way. If you want a specific thing done, dont jump into a pug that has several variables to it that may hinder you.

What is so hard to understand with that concept?

As I said above, it goes both ways.

One single approach isnt the correct approach, everyone needs different things to get to the point of beating their lich. If you expect something specific, go solo. In pugs everything goes since everyone needs and benefits the most from something different than another player. You are just as selfish for wanting your lich dead as the guy not touching his because he still needs murmurs. You killing or dying to your lich in such a case is just as much a drawback for that guy as him leaving his lich alone so you cant get yours to spawn.

And until the system changes, everyone that wants it done a specific way should just go solo or accept the RNG nature of pugs.

 

Only that it doesn't. You are equating solo play to squad play, there lies the fallacy.

If you are playing in a squad, you have to think of your squadmates. So if your lich spawns first, and you not confronting it will result in rest of your squadmates Lches not appearing, then you are simply being selfish. You have to "Take one for the team."

And yes, like you said, if you simply don't care about your squad mates, playing solo is always an option. 

[SordidDreams]

12 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

You have to "Take one for the team."

You definitely don't have to, and it's been argued quite convincingly that you shouldn't.

13 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

if you simply don't care about your squad mates, playing solo is always an option. 

So is playing in a pub squad, because guess what, if your squaddies don't care about you and want you to screw yourself over for their benefit, you don't have to care about them either.

[White_Matter]

1 minute ago, SordidDreams said:

You definitely don't have to, and it's been argued quite convincingly that you shouldn't.

So is playing in a pub squad, because guess what, if your squaddies don't care about you and want you to screw yourself over for their benefit, you don't have to care about them either.

The point seems to miss you.

If you decide not to confront the lich, you are disrupting gameplay of other people who want to fight their lich. It may be that the person next in line has the right combination and just wants to finish their Lich, and you are simply preventing them from doing so, basically wasting their time which obviously you have no right to do so.

On the other hand, those who decide to confront  their lich don't disrupt anything. If I fight my lich and die or finish him, there are no consequences for you. 

So there is a one way wrong doing here. People who don't want to fight their lich are disrupting the game play, not the other way around.

And if you are too weak or lazy to fight lvl 70-100 enemies, or a Lich, then definitely this game mode is not for you. 

Pretty sure DE is going to do something about this, likely a timer where if the owner of the Lich doesn't engage in 1 minute it will dissapear, or a mechanic where it will force people to engage their lich(even better) but until then, I'd really appreaciate if people who don't like team play could just go through the content solo.

[SordidDreams]

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

If you decide not to confront the lich, you are disrupting gameplay of other people who want to fight their lich.

If you demand that someone who doesn't want to confront their lich do so, you're disrupting their gameplay, far more than they are disrupting yours. It's selfish to ask that, and arrogant to demand it as if it's your right.

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

It may be that the person next in line has the right combination and just wants to finish their Lich, and you are simply preventing them from doing so

Easily solved by playing solo.

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

wasting their time which obviously you have no right to do so

Lol, no. You have the right to do whatever you damn well please in the game as long as it's not against the terms and conditions. Let me know when "you must kill kuva liches" is added there.

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

there is a one way wrong doing here

I agree, and that wrong is demanding that people screw themselves over and make their future lich missions an order of magnitude harder. Which is what leveling up the lich and causing the missions to go from level 50 to level 100 does.

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

And if you are too weak or lazy to fight lvl 70-100 enemies, or a Lich, then definitely this game mode is not for you. 

If that were true, then it wouldn't be unlocked when entering Sedna and wouldn't start at level 50.

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

Pretty sure DE is going to do something about this, likely a timer where if the owner of the Lich doesn't engage in 1 minute it will dissapear

Most likely, yes, thereby confirming that, contrary to what you said, fighting the lich is not supposed to be mandatory.

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

or a mechanic where it will force people to engage their lich

Lol, no. I will give you 5K plat if that happens.

38 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

I'd really appreaciate if people who don't like team play could just go through the content solo.

I'd really appreciate if people who want a guaranteed shot at their lich just went through the content solo, but oh well, here we are.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[White_Matter]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

If you demand that someone who doesn't want to confront their lich do so, you're disrupting their gameplay, far more than they are disrupting yours. It's selfish to ask that, and arrogant to demand it as if it's your right.

Easily solved by playing solo.

Lol, no. You have the right to do whatever you damn well please in the game as long as it's not against the terms and conditions. Let me know when "you must kill kuva liches" is added there.

I agree, and that wrong is demanding that people screw themselves over and make their future lich missions an order of magnitude harder. Which is what leveling up the lich and causing the missions to go from level 50 to level 100 does.

If that were true, then it wouldn't be unlocked when entering Sedna and wouldn't start at level 50.

Most likely, yes, thereby confirming that, contrary to what you said, fighting the lich is not supposed to be mandatory.

Lol, no. I will give you 5K plat if that happens.

I'd really appreciate if people who want a guaranteed shot at their lich just wen through the content solo, but oh well, here we are.

The game doesn't necessarily have to force you into doing something for you to realize that doing so is morally right. Like I said, making others suffer because you are lazy or weak is completely unwarranted and contradictory to team play. Obviously dealing with a Lich is alot easier with 4 players, thus it is natural for people who want to kill their liches to team up.

On the other hand, ignoring the Lich can be done with just 1 and you don't harm other players in the process if you play solo.

You are grasping at straws here.

 

[Hiirios]

the thing is that the majority would like their lich to spawn and to figure out what mods they need to use. 

meanwhile a minority of players wants to ignore them.

not to mention that the game (if you host a game) is easier when the lich is lower level.

it all just points that those who would like to ignore the lich until a later point should do so while playing either solo or with a group which likes to play like that

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

This has been discussed alot.  Ample aolutions have been proposed.

Players are under no obligation to blow themselves up for nothing if loss is garunteed.

Until de makes the system less needlessly punishing people will continue to ignore the lich.

[SordidDreams]

10 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

making others suffer because you are lazy or weak is completely unwarranted and contradictory to team play

I agree, and that is exactly why you shouldn't demand that people stab their liches when they don't want to, because doing that makes that person suffer a lot more than not doing it makes you suffer.

10 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

ignoring the Lich can be done with just 1 and you don't harm other players in the process if you play solo

Same goes for getting a guaranteed shot at it. If you want to make sure your lich will spawn, simply play solo. Then you don't have to rudely and selfishly demand that someone else screw themselves over for your benefit.

10 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

a minority of players wants to ignore them.

Sure doesn't sound like that from all the whining.

10 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

it all just points that those who would like to ignore the lich until a later point should do so while playing either solo or with a group which likes to play like that

No, what it points to is that those who want to stab the lich should play either solo or in a group that likes to play like that.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Hiirios]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb SordidDreams:

No, what it points to is that those who want to stab the lich should play either solo or in a group that likes to play like that.

why should the people who actually want harder content while not hindering the rest with their progress play solo and not the smaler part who don't want to engage in part of the lich system?

[SordidDreams]

4 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

why should the people who actually want harder content while not hindering the rest with their progress play solo

They shouldn't. Those who demand that others screw themselves over for their own benefit should play solo. I've explained that like twelve times now, do you seriously still not get it? QUIT. BEING. SELFISH. AND. DEMANDING. THAT. PEOPLE. SCREW. THEMSELVES. OVER. FOR. YOUR. BENEFIT.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Hiirios]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb SordidDreams:

They shouldn't. Those who demand that others screw themselves over for their own benefit should play solo. I've explained that like twelve times now, do you seriously still not get it? QUIT. BEING. SELFISH. AND. DEMANDING. THAT. PEOPLE. SCREW. THEMSELVES. OVER. FOR. YOUR. BENEFIT.

yes quit being selfish and let other spawn their lich too because they want to fight them too

[SordidDreams]

1 minute ago, Hiirios said:

yes quit being selfish and let other spawn their lich too because they want to fight them too

Avoiding a lich does nobody any harm. If they want a guaranteed shot at theirs, tthey can easily do that by playing solo.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Hiirios]

Gerade eben schrieb SordidDreams:

They can easily do that by playing solo.

the thing is that ignoring it is easier while it's screwing others. so why should the majority of the players suffer just because a part of the players don't emedeatly want to engage in the system? 

why should people face harder content in a solo mission when people can just go through the easy in a solo mission?

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Hiirios said:

the thing is that ignoring it is easier while it's screwing others. so why should the majority of the players suffer just because a part of the players don't emedeatly want to engage in the system? 

why should people face harder content in a solo mission when people can just go through the easy in a solo mission?

It's funny how you go from "the content's easy, just play solo" to "I can't handle this alone, I need a squad to carry me" depending on what's convenient for you.