Other players not engaging their lichs blocking other lich spawns

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

you could try to run solo instead.

Or you could take your own advice.

And dying to his lich is screwing over the mission more, since you get less thralls, so less chances at relics aswell. There is very little reason to use your mods before you unlock the order, even if you do own them all it is barely worth it due to the lich not appearing in future missions etc.

[Hiirios]

Gerade eben schrieb SneakyErvin:

Or you could take your own advice.

And dying to his lich is screwing over the mission more, since you get less thralls, so less chances at relics aswell. There is very little reason to use your mods before you unlock the order, even if you do own them all it is barely worth it due to the lich not appearing in future missions etc.

it's totally ok to wait till the lich converts the enemies around it but it's a hinderance if you ignore it even afterwards, especially if others would like to spawn their lich

[SordidDreams]

1 minute ago, Yamazuki said:

Just because you ignore it, doesn't change anything. If you didn't want to play against high level Grineer, you would just solo instead of risking joining an in progress mission with level 100+ enemies. I don't play solo, so I always just level up the Lich since more often than not I end up joining missions already at level 100 even if my Lich is 1.

No, because when you join a high-level mission, the host can presumably handle it and carry you. But leveling up your lich when you're not ready to run high-level content means you have to get people to carry you, you can no longer do it solo even if you wanted to.

1 minute ago, Hiirios said:

you actually only can be sure that the mission will be 60-80 if you solo since you are not always the host of the missions so the whole "easier/difficult" thing is just dumb. will you also leave the mission when you join and see that it's around level 100?

I guess that depends on whether the host can handle it and carry the newb. If the host has stupidly leveled the lich beyond a point where they can do that, then yeah, I guess the only option for the newb would be to leave again. Yet another flaw in the system, I guess.

[GrimSinner]

This Lich problem is 100% DE's fault for implementing the game mechanic creating such a huge division of the Warframe community.

Neither side is right or wrong; both camps have their pros and cons.  No amount of psychobabble and finger pointing between players is not going fix anything whatsoever.  

I would suggest everyone stop this nonsensical infighting and turn your sights on the real monster hiding in the shadows -- DE.  It's time they cleaned up their mess.

Edited November 12, 2019 by GrimSinner

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

it's totally ok to wait till the lich converts the enemies around it but it's a hinderance if you ignore it even afterwards, especially if others would like to spawn their lich

he'll convert enemies practically indefinitely, so i don't have to kill liches with that logic i suppose.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Test-995 said:

he'll convert enemies practically indefinitely, so i don't have to kill liches with that logic i suppose.

I thought there was a cap to the conversions, like ten or something?

[Yamazuki]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

No, because when you join a high-level mission, the host can presumably handle it and carry you. But leveling up your lich when you're not ready to run high-level content means you have to get people to carry you, you can no longer do it solo even if you wanted to.

So, what you're saying is you pug Lich missions knowing full well you can't handle high level thralls and let others do the work for you, rather than sticking to solo, and then you'll proceed to intentionally prevent other Lich's from spawning?

Hmm, I wonder what word can be used to describe that.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Hiirios said:

it's totally ok to wait till the lich converts the enemies around it but it's a hinderance if you ignore it even afterwards, especially if others would like to spawn their lich

No, no, it really isnt ok to wait. You keep the lich to kill whatever spawns before you hit the exit, just in order to get a few more murmers squeezed out of the mission.

You simply dont go into pugs to get the liches to spawn since it will take too much damn time from everybody while also forcing the rest to give up their possible extra thralls in future missions for a while. If you wanna play the waiting and dating game, do it in a premade where everyone is hunting their lich. In a pugs, you, the guy waiting for your lich, is the one that actually impacts the team most negatively since you dont know if he will spawn as second, thirds, fourth or at all. This at the same time as you actually gimp the murmur gain for everyone else by having them waste their liches.

[Test-995]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

I thought there was a cap to the conversions, like ten or something?

But if it hitting that point, it's almost always after the completion of mission objective, thus killing that lich doesn't really help spawn for others.

This is why i said practically, not actually.

[Hiirios]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb SordidDreams:

I guess that depends on whether the host can handle it and carry the newb. If the host has stupidly leveled the lich beyond a point where they can do that, then yeah, I guess the only option for the newb would be to leave again. Yet another flaw in the system, I guess.

you do realise that the lich system is actually meant to be dificult right? if you're not able to run it then don't. you expect that others carry you through the mission and can't even consider fighting your lich and let them get more murmurs? talk about being selfish. also this game is warframe level 100 enemies are not as hard as many say.

btw have you considered that people also join your team and can help you with it? that is why it's public so people can help eachother.

[Hiirios]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Test-995:

But if it hitting that point, it's almost always after the completion of mission objective, thus killing that lich doesn't really help spawn for others.

This is why i said practically, not actually.

there is a chance to spawn another one even when the mission is completed. and yes fighting him gives extra murmurs so it's always good to fight him though it is ok to wait and let him convert enemies.

and yes there is a cap to it. i do not have the number but i know there is.

[SordidDreams]

10 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

So, what you're saying is you pug Lich missions knowing full well you can't handle high level thralls and let others do the work for you, rather than sticking to solo, and then you'll proceed to intentionally prevent other Lich's from spawning?

Hmm, I wonder what word can be used to describe that.

Oh, I see you've run out of arguments, so you're making this personal. FYI I don't run any lich missions at all after getting rid of my first and so far only lich, since I refuse to engage with this BS system.

8 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

But if it hitting that point, it's almost always after the completion of mission objective, thus killing that lich doesn't really help spawn for others.

This is why i said practically, not actually.

Fair point, the missions are generally pretty short.

8 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

you do realise that the lich system is actually meant to be dificult right? if you're not able to run it then don't. you expect that others carry you through the mission and can't even consider fighting your lich and let them get more murmurs? talk about being selfish. also this game is warframe level 100 enemies are not as hard as many say.

btw have you considered that people also join your team and can help you with it? that is why it's public so people can help eachother.

Of course it's meant to be difficult, but the whole point of difficult games is for players to find ways of beating them as easily as possible. Leveling up the lich gives zero benefit and only slows you down in the future, so it's just plain stupid to do it, and selfish to demand that others do it. If there was some upside to it, like for instance if murmur gain was multiplied by lich level (so a level 5 lich = 5 murmurs per thrall), it would be a different story. But it isn't.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Kyronz]

literally no point in fighting a lich till you are ready,  is poorly designed system.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Hiirios said:

you do realise that the lich system is actually meant to be dificult right? if you're not able to run it then don't. you expect that others carry you through the mission and can't even consider fighting your lich and let them get more murmurs? talk about being selfish. also this game is warframe level 100 enemies are not as hard as many say.

btw have you considered that people also join your team and can help you with it? that is why it's public so people can help eachother.

What are you even talking about? Keeping your lich alive is the only thing that your lich can do to benefit the team in getting more murmurs. Dying to him or killing him will bring nothing extra to the group. The owner of the lich will get the value of 10x thralls, that is it. But those 10x thralls are obtained just as easily by keeping him there, so he spawns more regularly in future missions.

Killing the lich itself isnt the actual problem, they arent hard. Trying to end him or getting ended yourself if the problem, until you have all 3 mods unlocked. That is because he will disappear for while after getting interacted with.

[Test-995]

Just now, Hiirios said:

there is a chance to spawn another one even when the mission is completed. and yes fighting him gives extra murmurs so it's always good to fight him though it is ok to wait and let him convert enemies.

and yes there is a cap to it. i do not have the number but i know there is.

There is no point in wasting your time without doing extraction, because by doing so everyone can get to next mission just fine and that lich converts even more thralls in next missions

And i know conversion cap exists, that is quite a lot.

[Yamazuki]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Oh, I see you've run out of arguments, so you're making this personal. FYI I don't run any lich missions at all after getting rid of my first and so far only lich, since I refuse to engage with this BS system.

It's not personal. If someone can't handle level 100-150 thralls, the solution is to solo and stick to level 50, not pug and proceed to whine about other people whining.

Thanks for admitting you're just lying though.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Yamazuki said:

It's not personal. If someone can't handle level 100-150 thralls, the solution is to solo and stick to level 50, not pug and proceed to whine about other people whining.

Thanks for admitting you're just lying though.

If jumping to conclusions was an olympic sport, you'd have gold in the bag.

[Hiirios]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SneakyErvin:

What are you even talking about? Keeping your lich alive is the only thing that your lich can do to benefit the team in getting more murmurs. Dying to him or killing him will bring nothing extra to the group. The owner of the lich will get the value of 10x thralls, that is it. But those 10x thralls are obtained just as easily by keeping him there, so he spawns more regularly in future missions.

Killing the lich itself isnt the actual problem, they arent hard. Trying to end him or getting ended yourself if the problem, until you have all 3 mods unlocked. That is because he will disappear for while after getting interacted with.

you realise that there is a cap to how many thralls the lich can make when he spawns right? so it would be the best to wait until this point is reached and do the same with the next lich.

vor 4 Minuten schrieb SordidDreams:

Oh, I see you've run out of arguments, so you're making this personal. FYI I don't run any lich missions at all after getting rid of my first and so far only lich, since I refuse to engage with this BS system.

Of course it's meant to be difficult, but the whole point of difficult games is for players to find ways of beating them as easily as possible. Leveling up the lich gives zero benefit and only slows you down in the future, so it's just plain stupid to do it, and selfish to demand that others do it. If there was some upside to it, like for instance if murmur gain was dependent on lich level (so a level 5 lich = 5 murmurs per thrall), it would be a different story. But it isn't.

then why would you argue the whole time when you don't engage with the system?

and again if people don't want to run the level 100 lich missions then public missions is not really something where they should be since it's unclear what level the mission will be until you join. not to mention that it's pretty easy to get through as a team even with that level.

but it's a really good idea to increase the murmur gain per lich level.

[Hiirios]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb SordidDreams:

If jumping to conclusions was an olympic sport, you'd have gold in the bag.

talking about being out of arguements, huh?

it's actually a good solution that people who can not handle the high level mission to stay out of them. and then once they want to get rid of the lich they can go join the rest and can get rid of them with the help of other people.

[SordidDreams]

Just now, Hiirios said:

then why would you argue the whole time when you don't engage with the system?

and again if people don't want to run the level 100 lich missions then public missions is not really something where they should be since it's unclear what level the mission will be until you join. not to mention that it's pretty easy to get through as a team even with that level.

but it's a really good idea to increase the murmur gain per lich level.

Because I want to see the system improved so that I can engage with it, and misidentifying its issues as you are doing actively hinders that.

Again, public missions are fine because the host can presumably handle whatever level they've made their missions. But by leveling up the lich beyond what a player is able to handle, that player will make it impossible for themselves to go solo even if they wanted to, leaving them completely dependent on others for progress. Demanding that other people do that to themselves just so you can maybe get your measly ten murmurs from your lich is extremely selfish.

[Yamazuki]

2 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

If jumping to conclusions was an olympic sport, you'd have gold in the bag.

I didn't jump to conclusions, you're assuming the topic revolves around exclusively you. You hating the system is largely irrelevant, because guess what? I don't like it either. However, our feelings on the subject are irrelevant to the fact not killing your Lich when pugging for the sake of Grineer levels is meaningless. All that is accomplished is annoying other people.

There are people who legitimately don't kill the Lich to not level up Grineer/Thralls, this was even your own (and only) argument why people shouldn't. Not everyone is ready to kill a level 150 Thrall, there's nothing wrong with that, so many mods are a pain to get; but people not geared to kill level 100+ Grineer either should be soloing, grouping with others in their range, or progressing further before even bothering with the Lich system.

It simply never made sense to me on any game to pug when you only care about yourself, because what's the point in being around others when only you matter? I don't like having to die to my Lich, but I do it unless I'm alone because I know not attempting it would annoy the rest of the group.

[Hiirios]

Gerade eben schrieb SordidDreams:

Again, public missions are fine because the host can presumably handle whatever level they've made their missions. But by leveling up the lich beyond what a player is able to handle, that player will make it impossible for themselves to go solo even if they wanted to, leaving them completely dependent on others for progress. Demanding that other people do that to themselves just so you can maybe get your measly ten murmurs from your lich is extremely selfish.

this does not make sence because the lich will level up anyway even if you know all 3 mods since you don't know the order of them so sooner or later the lich will be higher even if they don't want it. so what will happen if the people host a mission at that point?

and if you don't host you can not be sure wether the people already in the mission can handle it.

it's also not only about the murmurs. what if i'm already able to kill my lich and he would've spawned since his bar is full just to see that someone is ignoring his and the mission too was for nothing. even if i'm not able to kill it i would like to figure out in which order i have to place my mods so it doesn't take forever.

[SordidDreams]

2 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

this does not make sence because the lich will level up anyway even if you know all 3 mods since you don't know the order of them so sooner or later the lich will be higher even if they don't want it. so what will happen if the people host a mission at that point?

and if you don't host you can not be sure wether the people already in the mission can handle it.

it's also not only about the murmurs. what if i'm already able to kill my lich and he would've spawned since his bar is full just to see that someone is ignoring his and the mission too was for nothing. even if i'm not able to kill it i would like to figure out in which order i have to place my mods so it doesn't take forever.

Yes, but as I said, there's no reason to make it hard for yourself earlier than necessary.

Yes, but as I said, the host can presumably handle whatever level they've made their lich missions.

Yes, but as I said, if you want a guaranteed chance to kill your lich, that is easily accomplished by playing solo.

4 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

not killing your Lich when pugging for the sake of Grineer levels is meaningless. All that is accomplished is annoying other people.

I already explained why that's not the case several times, I'm not going to repeat myself any more.

4 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

people not geared to kill level 100+ Grineer either should be soloing, grouping with others in their range, or progressing further before even bothering with the Lich system

Or they could just avoid killing their lich.

4 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

It simply never made sense to me on any game to pug when you only care about yourself, because what's the point in being around others when only you matter?

Yeah, I don't get that either, that's why I object to all this selfishness people are flaunting so brazenly here.

Edited November 11, 2019 by SordidDreams

[SneakyErvin]

16 minutes ago, Hiirios said:

you realise that there is a cap to how many thralls the lich can make when he spawns right? so it would be the best to wait until this point is reached and do the same with the next lich.

No, that simply isnt efficient. You keep the lich for aslong as you are in the mission, then you run out. Waiting for liches on end is a waste of efficiency and time in more than one way since you rob yourself of the chance for extra spawns in the coming missions and you slow down the current one aswell.

Running missions as fast as possible for regular thralls and whatever extras spawn is the efficient way of doing it and it works even in pugs.

[Hiirios]

vor 1 Minute schrieb SordidDreams:

Yes, but as I said, there's no reason to make it hard for yourself earlier than necessary.

Yes, but as I said, the host can presumably handle whatever level they've made their lich missions.

Yes, but as I said, if you want a guaranteed chance to kill your lich, that is easily accomplished by playing solo.

but it will get hard anyway andif you play public you can never be sure that the level will not be over 100.

i just gave you an exsample of a host probably not being able to handle it. what would you do then? leave them alone or at least try to help?

so when the level gets higher because you figured out the mods but not the order THEN you should go solo. this is complete backwards.

this whole avoid level 100+ is a complete non-arguement because it's never guaranteed that a publich mission will not reach that level. if you play public you are most likely to join a mission anyway so leveling the lich doesn't do much apart from making the fight a bit easier. all of this is also a loss for others who would like their lich to spawn and figure out the order of the mods. here andexsample for you: you lich is level 3 since you tried the 3 mods before and now figured out the order and it's about to spawn in the next mission. but you are unsure wether you can kill it or not so you go into a public mission and another lich spawns but the person who it belongs to doesn't kill it. so you join another mission for thesame thing to happen again. your lich was guaranteed to spawn and now you've run mission just to get more or less nothing. the same thing will hapen over and over while you know the 2 or 3 mods but still need to figure out the order but you can't because your lich never spawn thanks to that on person in the group.

vor 14 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

No, that simply isnt efficient. You keep the lich for aslong as you are in the mission, then you run out. Waiting for liches on end is a waste of efficiency and time in more than one way since you rob yourself of the chance for extra spawns in the coming missions and you slow down the current one aswell.

Running missions as fast as possible for regular thralls and whatever extras spawn is the efficient way of doing it and it works even in pugs.

and while your lich is there no other can spawn and people probably loose a chance to kill the lich in the mission and some after that if they get in the same group with you again. look at the exsample above.