Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

I think there's quite a fundamental issue going on with trying to mix PvP into Warframe's system. Lets start first by breaking down what warframe is, which is a highly mobile, RPG-lite, third person shooter. So now that we got that out of the way, lets address why these things may or may not be a problem.

So the thing that sticks warframe out from most pvp shooters is it being third person. Why is this a problem? Well, it means that targets are going to appear quite small on the screen compared to other games. This wouldnt be much of a problem if the player models or hitboxes where bigger, but it's not. So every shot becomes trying to hit tiny targets across your screen. This problem is exacerbated by the high mobility given to all players, so now not only are you trying to hit what seems to be a flying set of 10x10 pixels across the whole entire screen. Lets not forget the third person view means that part of the time, the enemy your trying to shoot at is covered by the model of your warframe blocking them, so at times you lose track of the enemy cause of the view. Also, youre jumping around sporadically also trying to not get shot, so you moving around also becomes a problem when youre trying to aim.

I also think the maps given to you are the worst for this type of game. There is so much hallways and boxes obstructing sight lines, so everything feels extremely claustrophobic as you bounce around. Large fast paced movements need space to breathe, but sometimes youre just left to bounce around walls all the time. It also feels like the enemies blend in far too much into the background most of the time, that or i need a better monitor. Its quite hard to make out everything when things rush at you at 80 mph bluring all into one motion.

The other parts of warframe, being the modding system and warframe powers, lack any influence on the game whatsoever. Its missed potential with the modding system, as it can be used as an assistance to target acquisition or reward higher skill play. Powers feel like nothing as you die quite frequently to garner enough power to reach anywhere for your power to be used, and wastes precious time from actually doing damage to someone.

At this point, i think DE needs to go back to the drawing board if they want to make PvP any fun to a casual audience. Right now, it feels like only lvl99 osu! players can reach a skill where they can aim while jumping around, causing quite a skill gap as well as a very high skill floor that seems unapproachable now.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

On 2020-02-10 at 7:41 AM, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Call of duty advance warfare is basically conclave but has that thing that you will never experience, a playerbase

You didn't play cod advanced warfare did you?

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

This is one of the few communities that will shut out another sides plea for just simple representation at least on the forums. Quite sad I can't say warframe is the "nice community" we all claim to be we others ask me about the game. People aren't asking DE to focus solely on pvp but asking for more attention towards the game mode so they don't feel left out. Nobody is saying stop working on pve content but alot of people would like pvp content as well. Saying "leave the game mode out to die wah HAHAHAH" makes no true sense being that it's still in the game and there are no plans to remove it soon advocacy  to improve it like advocacy to improve pve aspects of the game should be the same. A better pvp system is more players. A more active community and on top of that more possible revenue being honest. Just because you don't want it dosent mean it's not a sound idea. But hey I'm preaching on the same forums that get upset when people don't play exactly how they want them to do it dosent really matter to me

[DeccanTraps]

The thing is, many of us were lured here because there was no PvP.

And then people begged, and got Dueling, and that wasnt enough.

So we got Dark Sectors, and not only were they awfull, but it still wasnt enough.

So we got Lunareo, and that too was dire and also not enough.

So we got Conclave, and this too, is not enough.

At each step, for a vanishingly small sliver of player base finite development time and development resorces are taken from the games main focus (Chalenge for you, in a new brouwesr, google or bing 'warframe' and see how long it takes to get to any meantion of PvP) to appease a minority who will not be happy till pvp is requred for progression in order to fill their lobbies with reluctant targets for their prefferd play style.

Meanwhile there are huge balance issues, bugs that have been around for years, systems that requre a second look, the New war, the next Night wave Season, all crying out for completion.

And balance is another issue, becase with PvP around either the developers have to maintain 2 sets of stats for pvp and pve, which is twice the work and as a result three times as much bug stomping. Or they start balancing for both and things which are fun and usefull in PvE get ruined because they make things awkward in PvP. Just look at Stellaris which has reduced seeral interesting options because, despite it being a mainly single player game, they over performed in multiplayer games.

Edit: For a historical example of the insidious damage PvP can do, look at Firefall, a long dead cautionary tale that begain as essentually an open world, excavation focused kinsgameto Warframe, and whose develpers blew throuhg a lot of other peoples money on convention busses and cosplayers while trying to turn the game into a mandatory pvp competitave e-sports game, leading to it dying in ignomity.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by DeccanTraps

[Mithrah]

Yes, yes I do think it can be popular if executed in a way that pleases both PVE and PVP playerbases. My suggestion was for this: 

but, the TL;DR version is, no matter what you do. The only way it would make sense to make PVP a popular mode for this game, is to make PVP content that utilizes the development cycle of PVE content to its advantage. Conclave is rarely updated in the game, and that is because PVE content is on a constant churn out. In order to make PVP sustainable for the game and essentially update itself, DE would need to repurpose PVE content in a competitive way, which is one of the things I suggested above in the linked forum thread.

[DeMonkey]

4 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

~snip~

On the other hand I just see it as being realistic. No matter how much DE work on the PvP, they'll never be able to make it enjoyable for the masses without touching the very things that all the main PvP'ers like.

DE would be devoting resources to making PvP better just for a small minority of players, and if they dare try and slow it down a bit and lower the skill ceiling to make it a little fairer for all, the same PvP players will complain again.

There is no winning here, so I personally am of the opinion that yes, if you want PvP (like I do) then find a game that's actually made for PvP instead of asking the impossible.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

On 2020-02-09 at 6:51 PM, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

I still have have a point cause no one plays warframe for pvp. If i want to play pvp I'll play halo not empty lobby simulator. I hope conclave keeps getting neglected like it deserves.

Why does it deserve to be neglected?

[DeccanTraps]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

Why does it deserve to be neglected?

Because not neglecting it means taking limited dev time away from more pressing matters that help more of the player base.

There are only so many devs, who can work so many hours. Every hour of dev time spent on PvP to try (and fail) to please a small but vocial minority of players is an hour away from bug fixes balance changes and new content for the people actually playing the point of the game.

At some point you need to accept you cannot be all things to all people and focus on one thing and doing it well.

Warframe is not selling itself on awesome Pvp, but on its bg events (based on what sees column inches in gaming periodicals and websites) and its coop PvE content.

It should then focus its efforts fully on that instead of competing in an already over crouded arena of actuall PvP games.

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

36 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

Because not neglecting it means taking limited dev time away from more pressing matters that help more of the player base.

There are only so many devs, who can work so many hours. Every hour of dev time spent on PvP to try (and fail) to please a small but vocial minority of players is an hour away from bug fixes balance changes and new content for the people actually playing the point of the game.

At some point you need to accept you cannot be all things to all people and focus on one thing and doing it well.

Warframe is not selling itself on awesome Pvp, but on its bg events (based on what sees column inches in gaming periodicals and websites) and its coop PvE content.

It should then focus its efforts fully on that instead of competing in an already over crouded arena of actuall PvP games.

Nobody is asking for DE to fully focus on PvP. We just want some more polish on the mode.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

On the other hand I just see it as being realistic. No matter how much DE work on the PvP, they'll never be able to make it enjoyable for the masses without touching the very things that all the main PvP'ers like.

DE would be devoting resources to making PvP better just for a small minority of players, and if they dare try and slow it down a bit and lower the skill ceiling to make it a little fairer for all, the same PvP players will complain again.

There is no winning here, so I personally am of the opinion that yes, if you want PvP (like I do) then find a game that's actually made for PvP instead of asking the impossible.

As someone who is a frequent in conclave alot of people are open for changes to core values in pvp is usually again just the forms and reddit that are upset with it. Yes not everyone will be happy realistically but with it still being in game i see it as a feature that needs as much love as the rest of the game 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

45 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

Because not neglecting it means taking limited dev time away from more pressing matters that help more of the player base.

 

Not true proper management of time could yield success for both parties but people like to excuse DE for this 

[DeccanTraps]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Not true proper management of time could yield success for both parties but people like to excuse DE for this 

Sorry but there are only so many developers, only so many hours in the day. These are facts. The only way to add development time to one thing, is take it from another, or add hours worked decreasing cevelopers quality of life.

In this case, the situaion is exatly zero sum. You cannot manage more hours into the day.

[(XBOX)TheLastDax]

3 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

Sorry but there are only so many developers, only so many hours in the day. These are facts. The only way to add development time to one thing, is take it from another, or add hours worked decreasing cevelopers quality of life.

In this case, the situaion is exatly zero sum. You cannot manage more hours into the day.

The changes that Conclave needs are not big. Like Repo Man said earlier in the posts, the stuff that needs to be changed are just some flags that enable things in PvP. Changing some 1s into 0s is all Conclave needs. Probably won't take more than 5 minutes.

Edited February 11, 2020 by (XB1)WuhanMeat SP

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

48 minutes ago, DeccanTraps said:

Sorry but there are only so many developers, only so many hours in the day. These are facts. The only way to add development time to one thing, is take it from another, or add hours worked decreasing cevelopers quality of life.

In this case, the situaion is exatly zero sum. You cannot manage more hours into the day.

Proper time management fixes alot of de's issues. Nontheless the excuse that there are but so many developers is true it still dosent excuse  the improper management of alot of projects and then leaving them out to rot. Eso open worlds lunario and conclave are examples of these. With proper management these things shouldn't be in the state they are in. It's still not an excuse that part of your game has been abandoned from any dev I don't cut anyone the slack that warframe for some reason gets 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 hour ago, (XB1)WuhanMeat SP said:

The changes that Conclave needs are not big. Like Repo Man said earlier in the posts, the stuff that needs to be changed are just some flags that enable things in PvP. Changing some 1s into 0s is all Conclave needs. Probably won't take more than 5 minutes.

As the problems of the game become increasingly complex, the solutions remain embarrassingly simple.

[MystMan]

On 2020-02-10 at 10:46 PM, (XB1)CFE Vulari said:

    Dark Sectors DID have a balancing system, restricted mods and weapons. And since you started at lvl 0 and had to kill your way to level up, and with most matches over by lvl 10-15, you can see why I'm a bit confused about your facts and numbers. 

Even unmodded, some weapons were already too OP with their PVE stats.  Once you figured out which ones they were, it was really easy to steamroll others who didn't have them. For example:

Acrid - innate toxin damage even when unmodded. Ignored shields, and our Warframe's ferrite armor is also weak against it, making TTK a lot shorter.
Glaxion - high status% even when unmodded. Swing that ice beam around like nobody's business and spam cold procs all over the place, slowing everybody down for easier kills (with above Acrid or melee for example).
Amprex - able to hit multiple grouped targets .  
Ignis - still hated to this day in current conclave 2.0 for obvious reasons.
Notice how these are all clan research weapons, so if your clan didn't have them you would be at a severe disadvantage against players who did have them.

And these OP weapons gave quicker kills -> quicker unlocking of mods -> making your frame and your weapons more powerful -> you kill much quicker AND you are much harder to kill yourself. This created an exponentially widening power gap between players who died a lot (reset back to 0 mods) and those who barely died at all since they kept getting more powerful. Once that gap reached a certain distance, the losing team couldn't catch up anymore. The outcome was already decided.

I saw a Mirage lock down a long corridor all by themselves using Hall of Mirrors by spraying it with machine gun fire non-stop. It was practically a kill-zone you couldn't pass through unless you were an iron-skinned Rhino or such. (back then all 4 copies of Hall of Mirrors did damage, as opposed to today's only front 2 copies).  And several press-4-to-win abilities were instant death-bringers. Rhino's Stomp, Ash Bladestorm 1.0,  Saryn's Miasma 1.0, Mesa's Peacemaker 1.0,etc etc. There was zero defense against these skills. Whoever their team had a frame with such OP abilities unlocked pretty much ended it all by themselves, a one-person maelstrom of destruction. It was no longer competition, it was a massacre.
And I have experienced these flaws from both winner & loser perspectives. Unless everybody from both teams are packing equally OP (or equally weak) frames/weapons , gear mattered more than skill.

Hence why today's conclave 2.0 had to gimp all that down. pvp is this game with pve stats was always impossibly unbalanced. Funny thing, the new Kuva Bramma bow was accidentally allowed in Conclave with its pve stats for a few days before today's hotfix removed it. You can guess the absurdity that caused where skill didn't matter, OP gear did.

Edited February 12, 2020 by MystMan

[(XBOX)Chroma Prime]

No, pvp absolutely cannot be successful in warframe for various reasons. DE doesn’t have the time, or resources to appropriately balance PvP. Warframe should focus on what it’s been for it’s entire lifespan, a PVE game. The present PvP system in this game is horrible, it’s not fun or enjoyable. I have over 30k kills in conclave and can tell you, although I excel at pvp in this game, that it doesn’t belong 

[DeMonkey]

9 hours ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Yes not everyone will be happy realistically but with it still being in game i see it as a feature that needs as much love as the rest of the game 

Remove it from the game then, problem solved. 

(Also, as much love as the rest game? It's getting exactly the same amount of love as the rest of the game already.)

I'm sure some in game are willing to accept changes, but think about it.

Either it's dumbed down for the masses, causing the same elitist players you see regularly on the forums to kick up a fuss about how the changes weren't the right changes, before inevitably declaring that they quit.

Or it's tweaked but left in the same exact niche it's currently in, and remains nothing more than dead lobbies and a general feeling on anti-fun for most players, which PvP players still won't be happy with.

There is no winning solution to this, it's simply not the game for it.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

22 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Remove it from the game then, problem solved. 

(Also, as much love as the rest game? It's getting exactly the same amount of love as the rest of the game already.)

I'm sure some in game are willing to accept changes, but think about it.

Either it's dumbed down for the masses, causing the same elitist players you see regularly on the forums to kick up a fuss about how the changes weren't the right changes, before inevitably declaring that they quit.

Or it's tweaked but left in the same exact niche it's currently in, and remains nothing more than dead lobbies and a general feeling on anti-fun for most players, which PvP players still won't be happy with.

There is no winning solution to this, it's simply not the game for it.

Idk. I think you could easily keep how conclave is right now with a few game mode adjustments, add the right rewards (Like a certain somebody's dual nikanas as a sought out reward) and get a large majority back to conclave. 

Only reason nobody plays conclave, is that there is no reason to. 

No reward, no incentive. No content is coming out for it. Add riven fragments as rewards, kuva for every kill and make fairness adjustments and I can see people getting back into it. 

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Only reason nobody plays conclave

You had a great post up until these words. Thousands of people play Conclave, we just aren't very active on the forums.

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Only reason nobody plays conclave, is that there is no reason to. 

Genuinely disagree, I think a large part of it is that the speed of the combat and the differences in skill level is more frustrating than enjoyable for a lot of people. Like trying to swat a fly on cocaine.

And I'm referring to the both the fly and the swatter being on cocaine, not just the fly.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

You had a great post up until these words. Thousands of people play Conclave, we just aren't very active on the forums.

Not on ps4 they don't. 

I have the pvp syndana, and certain days I just sit in the lobby by myself for long periods of time. 

I really hope they change the requirements for that syndana, or even just add bots so I can complete challenges to make my syndana glow. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Genuinely disagree, I think a large part of it is that the speed of the combat and the differences in skill level is more frustrating than enjoyable for a lot of people. Like trying to swat a fly on cocaine.

And I'm referring to the both the fly and the swatter being on cocaine, not just the fly.

Oh, I understand. I use frames for the purpose of slowing enemies. (Valkyr, Nova etc.) I use precision weapons in conclave. (Latron prime/vectis etc) 

But to me, a person who enjoys PvP in warframe? I have no reason to play conclave anymore, or wait in a lobby when it doesn't benefit me or my character. At least index gives me credits. 

Conclave is just a waste of time when I have frames to forma, mods to get, or rail jack to hate. SO much to hate, so little time to hate it. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

33 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Remove it from the game then, problem solved. 

(Also, as much love as the rest game? It's getting exactly the same amount of love as the rest of the game already.)

I'm sure some in game are willing to accept changes, but think about it.

Either it's dumbed down for the masses, causing the same elitist players you see regularly on the forums to kick up a fuss about how the changes weren't the right changes, before inevitably declaring that they quit.

Or it's tweaked but left in the same exact niche it's currently in, and remains nothing more than dead lobbies and a general feeling on anti-fun for most players, which PvP players still won't be happy with.

There is no winning solution to this, it's simply not the game for it.

Playing a ton of games that shift through the meta drastically pve and pvp wise it will always be someone and by someone alot of players claiming they'll quit. But being realistic many of us don't or won't. May I also add that the forum and reddit is a very vocal minority so while I do believe some will leave not in a large enough capacity for it to be worrisome.  A simplified pvp would mean more then Likley a more active pvp which in turn means more players playing and alot of those vets have more time to play pvp. 

May I also add being around alot of former and current conclave players and active in a few groups discords the toxicity of many is very very nonexistent and mostly hearsay or exaggerated by a few bad apples. Most people would prefer a change to pvp to make it more accessible and I am for that being someone who enjoys Conclave. 

I'm not an advocate of removing longstanding things from any game but that's just my personal stance. Alot of people played just for pvp removing vs reworking losses what I may admit is a small margin of players but more then reworking the current system. Far far more. The same way alot of players left when lor was removed. There is a positive to it. 

Also I do agree that conclave is getting about as much love as the rest of the game which is nonexistent. Me and you both know how I feel about this in general however and I don't feel like typing it over and over and over like.im arguing with 84

[DeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Oh, I understand. I use frames for the purpose of slowing enemies. (Valkyr, Nova etc.) I use precision weapons in conclave. (Latron prime/vectis etc) 

But to me, a person who enjoys PvP in warframe? I have no reason to play conclave anymore, or wait in a lobby when it doesn't benefit me or my character. At least index gives me credits. 

Conclave is just a waste of time when I have frames to forma, mods to get, or rail jack to hate. SO much to hate, so little time to hate it. 

That's fair. I however played my fair share of it, accrued a very reasonable playtime in it and found it... lacking. I have many other PvP games, if I want to scratch that itch I'll play something that doesn't annoy me. I just don't share the same idea that giving it better rewards will do anything for it's playerbase.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

A simplified pvp would mean more then Likley a more active pvp which in turn means more players playing and alot of those vets have more time to play pvp. 

A simplified PvP also wouldn't really be Warframe at that point. 

My personal opinion genuinely is to remove PvP from Warframe, and for some other development team to pick it up as an external game.