Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Both have been tried, both have had massive issues tied to them.

So you are the type of person that tries riding a bicycle once, takes one fall and never tries again. 

Got it. 

The problem with your logic, is both the raids, and the Dark Sector PvP had dedicated playerbase that was more then just casuals. Raids just had a few bugs that needed to be patched, otherwise LoR was fine. Jordas was quite cool. 

The fact that anyone disagrees with you, and thousands of people have participated in both, is enough proof that they can be successful. It is entirely based on the implementation. 

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

Can it be successful? Yes but at the cost of a great deal of rebalancing and dev resource, from a financial perspective it's very unlikely

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

at the cost of a great deal of rebalancing and dev resource

Just removing several weapons and frames would solve a ton of issues. Literally all they have to do is change a few 1s to 0s.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

I think that is pretty sound reasoning; I myself am not too fond of Conclave, but played it quite a bit when it came out and did the same with Dark Sector so its not like folk don't develop their reasoning based on experience. I have often felt that perhaps something more akin to Battlefront Classic's modes, sponsored by Teshin and helped run by Simaris might be more engaging to the PVE and PVP as a middleground, while the current deathmatch and capture fhe flag are still there for those that are diehard about the current offerings.

I would agree on the Trials too, great idea; but needed more polish on the handling. They really seemed to be designed for particular warframes and loadouts first, with consumable spam being one of the few ways I saw other warframes get through, which is never fun. I hope both ideas can be reevaluated, polished, and be made into something that isn't just aimed at a small narrow niche of the overall community.

I never had a chance for DS, so would have loved to be able to test it. But since it did fail to the point where DE felt a need to shut it down I really dont want it brought back since it would take up time that could be spent on either exsisting PvE projects that work and are used or it could be spent on brand new things. Same deal with trials. I mean they even started out in an uphill battle given the massive restrictions such a mode has when there is no trinity system. Too many interesting mechanics have no chance to see the light, so we get the puzzle things instead that I dont really see fitting into an action driven game. A game where cool bosses and action based boss mechanics would make far more sense.

WF isnt the first game either that has tried raids in an arpg-like system, it is also not the first to fail, nor the last. GW2 is the only successful example, but that is because they also introduced trinity-lite into their system when they released the first raid. WF would probably be better off with pure boss fights with lots of graphed attacks and hordes of adds that needs to be taken care of as the fight progresses. Things that keep focus on the self sufficient nature of WF gameplay, where each and every frame cares for itself with a few support options thrown into the mix. We can never have the normal raid setup where we need off tanks, secondary healers or split dedicated dps. We'll never have the encounters where a really tough add spawns that needs to be kited or tanked because we just dont have the aggro management and skills such a thing would require. It feels like some people see the word raid and automatically thinks it is more challenging because it needs more people. WF raids could in reality be done just the same with a group of 4. It feels like DE slapped on the extra 4 players just so they could call it a raid.

1 hour ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

So you are the type of person that tries riding a bicycle once, takes one fall and never tries again. 

Got it. 

The problem with your logic, is both the raids, and the Dark Sector PvP had dedicated playerbase that was more then just casuals. Raids just had a few bugs that needed to be patched, otherwise LoR was fine. Jordas was quite cool. 

The fact that anyone disagrees with you, and thousands of people have participated in both, is enough proof that they can be successful. It is entirely based on the implementation. 

No not really. being the type of person that tries riding a bike once would more be like doing a raid once, failing and never coming back. What is discussed here is a different thing, these are activites that were around for years and never succeeded and eventually got shut down due to issues piling up. This is more of a business perspective. The modes have already had massive amounts of resources injected into them, both to get them to a release state and then to maintain them over several years. Doing it again without knowing if this time around they'd be a success and worth it would be a big risk of wasting more resources and time on the same type of project.

Having dedicated players isnt enough to keep something around. The number shown by DE was so very low for game modes intended to be played alot. Some compare them to Defection and say "well defection is pulling low numbers aswell so why isnt it axed also?", the difference is that defection isnt designed to be played alot, it is just a mode that is there to obtain a frame. It is also a mode that needs very little upkeep, a mode that brings very few outside issues with it etc.

And yes, it is a fact that people disagree with me, but that isnt an indication of it being successful if implemented again, it just means different people have different opinions. "Thousands of people" is also a drop in the ocean compared to the total active playerbase, it was even a small number back then when the active playerbase was smaller. And it isnt like the modes in question didnt have alot of time in order to try and take off properly. DE should just make a "boss mode" instead of trials and for DS they should probably turn it into something pure PvE related, possibly as a replacement for invasions where helping different factions have a real meaning. They could make it some "PvE MOBA".

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But now, seeing as how DS failed for one reason or another

It didn't fail. It was just removed. Although I am curious as to what you think the primary failings were of the previous system.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The time and resources have already gone into it once.

What resources have gone into Conclave? A few maps? The same maps that are reused in the arena on Sedna and the Index? When was the last time Conclave received a genuine update? I hate to break it to you, but there are no resources devoted to Conclave.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Both have been tried, both have had massive issues tied to them

Neither of them got the resources they needed. Both Raids and Rails garnished huge communities that still talk about them to this day. They are worth trying again.

[(NSW)Quarky]

20 hours ago, Aldain said:

an old one called GunZ: The Duel (or something like that) which also had a comically high skill floor

THAT'S MY JAM. I LOVED THAT GAME FOR A DECADE. The only reason I kept playing warframe for more than 24 hours was because it honestly felt like the movement system was inspired by gunz between the bullet jumping and the fluidity with which you can move between the ground, air, and walls! GunZ: The Duel is, was and likely always will be my favorite game. That game was insane, after 10 years I was still finding myself in practice rooms training the clicks and honing my animation locks for funsies. Clan wars were ultra intense and I'm getting giddy just remembering.

#BanTelosBoltace #ClanWarsTeamAnnihilation #GroundisLavaBulletJumpFTW

 

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

50 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Just removing several weapons and frames would solve a ton of issues. Literally all they have to do is change a few 1s to 0s.

Which warframes + weapons would u move?

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Which warframes + weapons would u move?

I'll go ahead and answer because it is likely our replies will be the same. Telos Boltace, Ignis, Plasmor. Nidus and Hydroid. Everything else could just be adjusted.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

47 minutes ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

I'll go ahead and answer because it is likely our replies will be the same. Telos Boltace, Ignis, Plasmor. Nidus and Hydroid. Everything else could just be adjusted.

Ok then onto my second question how would you adjust the following as an example (note these wouldn't even be the most extreme cases)

Frames with Invisibility (Ivara, Ash, Loki), Frames with considerable damage resistance and damage boosts like Rhino and Chroma. Or a more extreme case a frame like Titainia who becomes tiny and gets considerable boost to maneuverability?

In what about weapons? Kuva Bramma,Lenz, Basmu (which damages surrounding enemies and heal's u at the same time?

Honestly it might sound fairly simple on paper but a lot if thought would need to be done even before any balancing is done for the current PVP.

I reiterate that while I think it is possible to have PVP and a successful form of PVP I dont think it possible with DE's limited size team and the companies direction wont allow them to invest the resources required as it would still be a considerable gamble

[Midas]

I do not. Unless it is competition between who can kill what mobs the fastest etc.

[(NSW)Quarky]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Ok then onto my second question how would you adjust the following as an example (note these wouldn't even be the most extreme cases)

Frames with Invisibility (Ivara, Ash, Loki), Frames with considerable damage resistance and damage boosts like Rhino and Chroma. Or a more extreme case a frame like Titainia who becomes tiny and gets considerable boost to maneuverability?

In what about weapons? Kuva Bramma,Lenz, Basmu (which damages surrounding enemies and heal's u at the same time?

Honestly it might sound fairly simple on paper but a lot if thought would need to be done even before any balancing is done for the current PVP.

I reiterate that while I think it is possible to have PVP and a successful form of PVP I dont think it possible with DE's limited size team and the companies direction wont allow them to invest the resources required as it would still be a considerable gamble

Ah-hah. I see another one that can be introduced to the fold!

Invisibility in conclave is hardly a problem because you aren't truly "invisible" like you are to the AI (just try using ivara prime's invisibility and laugh as it's merely a waste of energy), bramma and basmu aren't available in the clave and lenz is actually not that great because it's simple to roll out of the explosion before the blast damage even if you are cold proc'd not to mention it has 4 rounds max, 1 notched and 3 in the quiver tops.

I think you should go ahead and give conclave a shot before you bash it! It's actually incredibly balanced baring a few gigantic issues.

#BanTelosBoltace

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

1 minute ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Frames with Invisibility (Ivara, Ash, Loki)

They are fine as is. Ivara has the longest invisibility, but her mobility is lowered. Ash has a rather short invisibility but gains a massive speed boost to make up for it. Loki's invisibility is already balanced by the fact that if you shoot someone, your invisibility ends early. Nobody has issues with those frames in Conclave.

 

3 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Frames with considerable damage resistance and damage boosts like Rhino and Chroma

Iron Skin isn't as useful as it sounds in Conclave. It is powerful, sure, but it costs 50 energy and it doesn't give you much protection. Vex armor is even worse in that it costs 75 energy while only providing temporary damage production. Both abilities need energy to cast, many weapons/frames can drain energy from a frame before they can even cast an ability. Banshee's silence can remove Vex Armor. That's in Conclave. Right now.

6 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

In what about weapons? Kuva Bramma,Lenz, Basmu (which damages surrounding enemies and heal's u at the same time?

Kuva Bramma is not in Conclave. If it was in Conclave, I would reduce its projectile flight speed and lower its explosive radius. The Lenz is already in Conclave. It's aoe slow is strong and the damage is nice, but it is very easy to dodge because of the comparatively low projectile flight speed and the delay between when the arrow lands and when it explodes. This is why hardly anyone has ever used the lenz in Conclave. I am unfamiliar with the Basmu, but I would simply disable its passive aoe damage and healing (DE has disabled more than one weapon's passive before in Conclave)
 

 

10 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Honestly it might sound fairly simple on paper but a lot if thought would need to be done even before any balancing is done for the current PVP.

No, it is actually very simple. At least in the case of Conclave.
 

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Quarky said:

Ah-hah. I see another one that can be introduced to the fold!

Invisibility in conclave is hardly a problem because you aren't truly "invisible" like you are to the AI (just try using ivara prime's invisibility and laugh as it's merely a waste of energy), bramma and basmu aren't available in the clave and lenz is actually not that great because it's simple to roll out of the explosion before the blast damage even if you are cold proc'd not to mention it has 4 rounds max, 1 notched and 3 in the quiver tops.

I think you should go ahead and give conclave a shot before you bash it! It's actually incredibly balanced baring a few gigantic issues.

#BanTelosBoltace

I wasnt bashing anything though...

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 minute ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

They are fine as is. Ivara has the longest invisibility, but her mobility is lowered. Ash has a rather short invisibility but gains a massive speed boost to make up for it. Loki's invisibility is already balanced by the fact that if you shoot someone, your invisibility ends early. Nobody has issues with those frames in Conclave.

 

Iron Skin isn't as useful as it sounds in Conclave. It is powerful, sure, but it costs 50 energy and it doesn't give you much protection. Vex armor is even worse in that it costs 75 energy while only providing temporary damage production. Both abilities need energy to cast, many weapons/frames can drain energy from a frame before they can even cast an ability. Banshee's silence can remove Vex Armor. That's in Conclave. Right now.

Kuva Bramma is not in Conclave. If it was in Conclave, I would reduce its projectile flight speed and lower its explosive radius. The Lenz is already in Conclave. It's aoe slow is strong and the damage is nice, but it is very easy to dodge because of the comparatively low projectile flight speed and the delay between when the arrow lands and when it explodes. This is why hardly anyone has ever used the lenz in Conclave. I am unfamiliar with the Basmu, but I would simply disable its passive aoe damage and healing (DE has disabled more than one weapon's passive before in Conclave)
 

 

No, it is actually very simple. At least in the case of Conclave.
 

But were talking about a successful PVP which Conclave currently isn't, if we simply keep everything as is currently then nothing will change...

[(NSW)Quarky]

Just now, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

I wasnt bashing anything though...

Well then, my mistake and thank you for prompting discussion!

[(XBOX)The Repo Man151]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

But were talking about a successful PVP which Conclave currently isn't, if we simply keep everything as is currently then nothing will change...

It is actually extremely clear that you were talking about Conclave.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Ok then onto my second question how would you adjust the following as an example (note these wouldn't even be the most extreme cases)

Frames with Invisibility (Ivara, Ash, Loki), Frames with considerable damage resistance and damage boosts like Rhino and Chroma. Or a more extreme case a frame like Titainia who becomes tiny and gets considerable boost to maneuverability?

In what about weapons? Kuva Bramma,Lenz, Basmu (which damages surrounding enemies and heal's u at the same time?

Well I can answer the frame question cause its already been done. Their abilities are adjusted in PvP. Iron skin decays after a few seconds, and only has a modest starting value. Chroma has his tankiness on a timer + higher energy cost.
Razorwing is sustainable for somewhere around 8 seconds in conclave.
Frames with invisibility have it broken by being damaged or attacking with the exception of Ivara's cloak arrow, which requires you to be stationary. On top of that, it isn't true invisibility. You can still spot frames that have it on.

Lenz is already in conclave, and is actualy considered a low-tier weapon.
Bramma would be balanced by applying a severe PvP damage multiplier (all weapons have one, typically a multiplier < 1).
Basmu's heal would actually be somewhat balanced by the fact that performing maneuvers/leaving the ground interrupts the heal. What would be more problematic is the fact that the primary fire is fire + electric.
 

 

1 hour ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Which warframes + weapons would u move?

As was pointed out already, Telos Boltace is the biggest offender. The following is a non-comprehensive list of stuff that I'd like to see balanced/removed
Saryn's passive (granted this is with electric/gas weapons primarily, and is more of a bug)
Hydroid's passive + 3
Staticor
Castanas
Mire
Mios/Lacera/Scoliac slams
Zenith alt fire (rebalanced)
Most snipers and shotguns (rebalanced for these as most of them are currently bugged)
Beam weapons (rebalanced) (granted this is more of a PC issue afaik, so I don't have much to say as a console player)
Melee slams in general (rebalanced)
100% damage block (removed)
Zakti

Keep in mind that this is non-comprehensive and mainly my opinions, though I'm sure many Conclave players would agree with a fair portion of it

Edited May 18, 2020 by (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 hour ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

It is actually extremely clear that you were talking about Conclave.

What are you talking about? What does that have to do with my previous comment?

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

1 hour ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Well I can answer the frame question cause its already been done. Their abilities are adjusted in PvP. Iron skin decays after a few seconds, and only has a modest starting value. Chroma has his tankiness on a timer + higher energy cost.
Razorwing is sustainable for somewhere around 8 seconds in conclave.
Frames with invisibility have it broken by being damaged or attacking with the exception of Ivara's cloak arrow, which requires you to be stationary. On top of that, it isn't true invisibility. You can still spot frames that have it on.

Lenz is already in conclave, and is actualy considered a low-tier weapon.
Bramma would be balanced by applying a severe PvP damage multiplier (all weapons have one, typically a multiplier < 1).
Basmu's heal would actually be somewhat balanced by the fact that performing maneuvers/leaving the ground interrupts the heal. What would be more problematic is the fact that the primary fire is fire + electric.
 

 

As was pointed out already, Telos Boltace is the biggest offender. The following is a non-comprehensive list of stuff that I'd like to see balanced/removed
Saryn's passive (granted this is with electric/gas weapons primarily, and is more of a bug)
Hydroid's passive + 3
Staticor
Castanas
Mire
Mios/Lacera/Scoliac slams
Zenith alt fire (rebalanced)
Most snipers and shotguns (rebalanced for these as most of them are currently bugged)
Beam weapons (rebalanced) (granted this is more of a PC issue afaik, so I don't have much to say as a console player)
Melee slams in general (rebalanced)
100% damage block (removed)
Zakti

Keep in mind that this is non-comprehensive and mainly my opinions, though I'm sure many Conclave players would agree with a fair portion of it

Fair enough, then out if interest why do you think it's so unpopular as a game mode? I have only played a few games of Conclave and that was largely due to how difficult it was to find any games

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

why do you think it's so unpopular as a game mode?

Primary reason is that its not easy. And I don't mean to put down people who don't like Conclave by this. People have different tastes. Its easy to feel overwhelmed given that the rest of the game (PvE) is fairly easy (which is ok).

This is exacerbated by the fact that people who like Conclave love it, and have a fairly high skill level compared to a newbie. Since there's no skill based matchmaking, and a fairly low population, you end up getting stomped, which can create the feeling of an insurmountable gap.

So then the newbie just quits and (rather understandably) has a negative view of PvP. After all, it feels horrible getting stomped all the time.This feeds into the weird anti-PvP sentiment the Warframe playerbase has as a whole.

The other issue is the whole broken weapons. Stuff that is hard/near impossible to play around. Once again, this feeds into the negative view of PvP (rightfully so).

So you have this downward spiral. People won't bother trying PvP cause they're typically told its bad (even though the person telling them this may have never tried it). So you get no population growth, which means empty lobbies when someone does want to try it, which feeds into the oft parroted "Conclave is dead game mode", etc

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

34 minutes ago, (XB1)ALTBOULI said:

Fair enough, then out if interest why do you think it's so unpopular as a game mode? I have only played a few games of Conclave and that was largely due to how difficult it was to find any games

I think this is a point which the conclave community largely disagrees on, I think due to differences in personal interests along with other reasons. I think its interest factors need to overlap more with PvE. My main example of that is how in PvE, a lot of people like modding for different functions and purposes, which is very much doable in conclave, but not to the same degree as in PvE. I don't think it should be doable to the same degree, but it should still be much closer. That comes at somewhat at the cost of balance, and I think balance takes some priority, but I think the point of balance is to promote variety, replay value, and interest. (There's little point in having a large amount of variety if you're more or less forced to use only a small fraction of it.)

A lot of the sorts of gear variety that's available and could be implemented also contributes to ease of use, which I think is very good for new players. A lot of veteran players hate that, to the point that there's a major bullying problem against it. (As far as I can tell, it's on all platforms, but to different degrees. XB1 seems to be the best, but I've only played a little conclave on PC, and none on Switch.) That's likely a major factor of popularity, since I know many players who've quit because of that, and have heard from newbies that they've experienced that bullying, so less lenient moderation could also solve some things, and might even be necessary. If someone new to conclave was able to make full use of the best of their arsenal without any issues from other players, they wouldn't be beating veterans, (that would still be very difficult,) but they'd have more hope of doing something to them, and getting the occasional kill.

There's a lot to be said about the fine tuning of balance and stuff, but that's not necessary for my main point and stuff.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

32 minutes ago, (XB1)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Primary reason is that its not easy. And I don't mean to put down people who don't like Conclave by this. People have different tastes. Its easy to feel overwhelmed given that the rest of the game (PvE) is fairly easy (which is ok).

This is exacerbated by the fact that people who like Conclave love it, and have a fairly high skill level compared to a newbie. Since there's no skill based matchmaking, and a fairly low population, you end up getting stomped, which can create the feeling of an insurmountable gap.

So then the newbie just quits and (rather understandably) has a negative view of PvP. After all, it feels horrible getting stomped all the time.This feeds into the weird anti-PvP sentiment the Warframe playerbase has as a whole.

The other issue is the whole broken weapons. Stuff that is hard/near impossible to play around. Once again, this feeds into the negative view of PvP (rightfully so).

So you have this downward spiral. People won't bother trying PvP cause they're typically told its bad (even though the person telling them this may have never tried it). So you get no population growth, which means empty lobbies when someone does want to try it, which feeds into the oft parroted "Conclave is dead game mode", etc

From my own limited experience it's been difficult finding games. Ur last paragraph in particular resonates with me because when I first started playing Warframe I was told by a number of people including friends that Warframe has a form of PVP but its rubbish and no one plays it, unfortunately I never invested much time into Conclave as a result.

25 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

I think this is a point which the conclave community largely disagrees on, I think due to differences in personal interests along with other reasons. I think its interest factors need to overlap more with PvE. My main example of that is how in PvE, a lot of people like modding for different functions and purposes, which is very much doable in conclave, but not to the same degree as in PvE. I don't think it should be doable to the same degree, but it should still be much closer. That comes at somewhat at the cost of balance, and I think balance takes some priority, but I think the point of balance is to promote variety, replay value, and interest. (There's little point in having a large amount of variety if you're more or less forced to use only a small fraction of it.)

A lot of the sorts of gear variety that's available and could be implemented also contributes to ease of use, which I think is very good for new players. A lot of veteran players hate that, to the point that there's a major bullying problem against it. (As far as I can tell, it's on all platforms, but to different degrees. XB1 seems to be the best, but I've only played a little conclave on PC, and none on Switch.) That's likely a major factor of popularity, since I know many players who've quit because of that, and have heard from newbies that they've experienced that bullying, so less lenient moderation could also solve some things, and might even be necessary. If someone new to conclave was able to make full use of the best of their arsenal without any issues from other players, they wouldn't be beating veterans, (that would still be very difficult,) but they'd have more hope of doing something to them, and getting the occasional kill.

There's a lot to be said about the fine tuning of balance and stuff, but that's not necessary for my main point and stuff.

I guess its difficult at this point in the game to suddenly change a fairly common mindset even if it's not necessarily true.

[SneakyErvin]

6 hours ago, (XB1)The Repo Man151 said:

It didn't fail. It was just removed. Although I am curious as to what you think the primary failings were of the previous system.

What resources have gone into Conclave? A few maps? The same maps that are reused in the arena on Sedna and the Index? When was the last time Conclave received a genuine update? I hate to break it to you, but there are no resources devoted to Conclave.

Neither of them got the resources they needed. Both Raids and Rails garnished huge communities that still talk about them to this day. They are worth trying again.

They did fail because the numbers show low attendance. They simply werent used by enough people and they caused issues for the game. There were reasons why the modes were removed. Upkeep costs and time simply didnt match the low attendance.

The resources that went into it when it was made. That is more than enough to spend on something that isnt used.

As I said in the first segment here, the attendance was too low to justify injecting the needed resources and time into it to fix it. Your idea of huge may be huge in isolation, but when you compare it to the total number of players it is a small clique that participated in those modes. They are definently not worth trying again. Even if they manage to pull twice the numbers in a new iteration it will still be an insignificant amount of the playerbase that actually participates in it. And this is by only thinking of the resources needed to develop it. For something like DS to be even remotely worth playing DE would also need to set up dedicated servers, both for PC and console so the experience is equal.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No not really. being the type of person that tries riding a bike once would more be like doing a raid once, failing and never coming back. What is discussed here is a different thing, these are activites that were around for years and never succeeded and eventually got shut down due to issues piling up.

I disagree entirely. 

Failed how? I beat every raid in the game, with multiple groups. Some groups I was in, did all three raids, LoR + nightmare + Jordas on a daily basis. There were days that doing a single raid would net the whole group a massive amount of plat. I remember getting my first arcane energize, then the entire group getting a combined total of 2000 plat as all 8 players had enough to max out the arcane at the time. We all sold to the one person. 

The raids served as the games endgame at the time. Not only were the raids a good way to get platinum, acquire a rare weapon (The brakk. I still have enough brakk parts to make several of them.) but the arcane rewards at the time were worth it. 

As the game progressed, raids turned into raid bosses. The Eidolons are the new raid bosses. The raids only problem is that for the longest time there was nobody patching the bugs from them. Fixing the bugs would only be QoL. The raids were still beatable, only needing some extra effort occasionally. 

The raids got removed because they were endgame. Every game with endgames raids, only a very select portion of the playerbase participates in. This is also true for games like Destiny, Destiny 2 etc which has the raids as one of the main attractions. 

Yet still only a small portion of the playerbase gets to, let alone clears consistently. The issues piling up? Wrong. The issue was that the same bugs were never patched. One door in LoR always opened and never needed people to stand on the buttons. IT had its issues, but they were always the same half a dozen bugs. 

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Having dedicated players isnt enough to keep something around. The number shown by DE was so very low for game modes intended to be played alot. Some compare them to Defection and say "well defection is pulling low numbers aswell so why isnt it axed also?", the difference is that defection isnt designed to be played alot, it is just a mode that is there to obtain a frame.".

Terrible logic. Absolutely atrocious actually. 

#1 From Flappy Zephyr, to frame fighter, to octavia's music, there are many things that either a lot of people use or largely ignore. Keeping the warframe raids in the game doesn't cost the game anything. 

#2, fan based websites existed to track raid clears. People cared about raids. (enough to program a website.) This is a dedication that proves it is popular and successful. Your logic is so bad, the closest analogy I can make to it, is like removing Octavia's song maker cause there are "issues with it." 

The same issues that have been apart of it from the beginning, that have never had an attempt to fix it. Like the door in the first area of LoR that just opened on approach.

#3 If defection is fine despite low player numbers, then the raids were also acceptable. Defection has its purpose, and the raids have theirs. The raids brought people together to beat a boss, which was a huge benefit as it made the game less casual. 

The game is way too casual now, and for the longest time I can beat all the content in the game solo by myself. Raids requiring multiple people was a nice change of pace.

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

 

Nope.

If you like what exist you do you. But de has not and will clearly not dive into pvp.