Do you think PVP can be successful ?

[Oreades]

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Yup. 

Because entire alliances of Tenno would clash. It gave players a lucrative reward for owning the solar rail, and at the time was something that was heavily heavily dominant of the playtime back then. 

Wasn't balanced, and the game modes swapped from PvP to different PvE sabotage missions. But any time you see a clan's name on a dark sector? Proof that PvP can be successful, or TOO successful. 

It's pretty common for competitive game modes, to get toxic after all. 

Yeah no, the fact that it was a toxic quagmire that and removed from the game kinda exactly proves my point because that IS NOT a success. Driving people away from you game IS NOT a success and if that wasn't happening it wouldn't have been removed. Hmmm forced PvP in a PvE game becoming problematic and needing to be removed to preserve the game.... it's almost like that was the second half of my point.*thinky face* 

But hey some super niche subset of the games community ate that Argon Sandwitch up so let's all climb to the top of the Unum and shout to Lua that THIS WAS A HUGE SUCCESS! Now lets all go play this super successful forced PvP game mode that is still in the game becau.......oh right. 

Too successfull my Vey Heccin' butt

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why should I explain it?

Because you are the one who claims they are different. Why make a statement but not explain your statement for example. PVE is dead, so warframe is dead. If I were to stop my argument there is it really an argument? Anyway I think you understand since you have basic comprehension skills or something 

[Aldain]

You know my problem with Warframe's PvP?

It has an obtuse skill floor and the difference between new, medium and high skilled players is like the freaking Grand Canyon.

Even now I could go play trash tier casual in CS:GO and have marginal amounts of fun assuming I know how a keyboard and mouse work.

Sure if I wanted to play ranked I'd get flicked and wrecked by every pro with insane twitch reflexes but I can still play at trash tier casual too.

However due to the sheer INSANE mobility Warframe has you literally cannot "just play it" without getting run over, even high-skill freaking fighting games have a better "Pick up and play" nature than Warframe's PvP.

Spam "Casual Scum" at me all you like, but don't praise a high skill floor and then turn around and wonder "WHY IS NOBODY PLAYING THIS" in the same breath.

[SneakyErvin]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

Because you are the one who claims they are different. Why make a statement but not explain your statement for example. PVE is dead, so warframe is dead. If I were to stop my argument there is it really an argument? Anyway I think you understand since you have basic comprehension skills or something 

What statement? It is simple use of phrase structure, it should not have to be expained if people understand things like adverbs, adjectives and so on. If you do not understand the difference between a phrase that says "Co-op PvE" and "PvE Co-op" you might wanna take an english class. One emphasises that the game is a game designed as co-op with a PvE setting, the other emphasises that it is a game designed for PvE with co-op options.

"PVE is dead, so warframe is dead" is a completely different thing. That is an actual statement that would need reasoning behind to how you came to that conclusion. That is not the same as the difference in the two phrases we talk about. Those are simply structured phrases that mean different things based on grammatical rules. Why you even brought up a statement in the conversation puzzles me and makes me think you arent really onboard with what I'm talking about at all or why I pointed out the phrase in the first place.

 

[SneakyErvin]

22 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Too successfull my Vey Heccin' butt

It was so successful they had to shut it down so it wouldnt overshadow the rest of the game. Or atleast that is the imaginary reason for the shutdown that goes around in the head of those claiming it was a success.

[Felsagger]

Nubs whines when they get their butts spanked hard. Another day at the forum board....I guess.  

 

No wonder why PVP was left in the mist. The problem is that such PVP could work wonders for this game prolonging the life of it. This may save DE from drought content seasons if there where dedicated servers. 

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

32 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What statement?

 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

"PvE co-op" is not the same as "Co-op PvE". 

Is that not a statement ? 
 

Also see how easy that was explaining your opinion, that they are NOT the same thing. Because I and a few others agree they are . You don’t have to be rude and throw around insults to have a constructive conversation. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by (PS4)Akuma_Asura_

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

22 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

I'm really confused here. You're right that they didn't say "Co-op PvE," they said "PvE Co-op." Can we agree that these are the same?

Yes we can agree but seems the other guy has a hard time explaining why they are not. 

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

 

Is that not a statement ? 
 

Also see how easy that was explaining your opinion, that they are NOT the same thing. Because I and a few others agree they are . You don’t have to be rude and throw around insults to have a constructive conversation. 

It isnt opinion though. It is grammatical rules so should not need an explaination of the statement in question.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt opinion though. It is grammatical rules so should not need an explaination of the statement in question.

Oh so you now agree it’s a statement. If I were to say a MOBA FPS and a FPS MOBA are not the same thing, that would be a statement & I should be inclined to explain because we can’t read your mind, because to others it might be the same thing. Also no this isn’t about “grammatical rules” because using Co-op as a noun or an adjective doesn’t suddenly change its meaning. Co-op as a noun means a game genre where players work together to achieve a common objective, while Co-op as an adjective means having Co-op features, but guess what they are still both Co-op.

[SneakyErvin]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

Oh so you now agree it’s a statement. If I were to say a MOBA FPS and a FPS MOBA are not the same thing, that would be a statement & I should be inclined to explain because we can’t read your mind, because to others it might be the same thing. Also no this isn’t about “grammatical rules” because using Co-op as a noun or an adjective doesn’t suddenly change its meaning. Co-op as a noun means a game genre where players work together to achieve a common objective, while Co-op as an adjective means having Co-op features, but guess what they are still both Co-op.

I'm saying what you brought up was a statement. At first I thought you were refering to just "Co-op PvE".

MOBA FPS and FPS MOBA would be the same thing, since the genre isnt optional as opposed to the co-op part in one the other phrases. And no co-op does not mean a game genre, it refers to a mechanic present in several different genres. It isnt even really a subgenre. So depending on where it is placed in a phrase you can figure out the design approach of the game in question. Co-op being the headliner word implies it is designed to be played co-op, if it comes later down the line it is refering to an optional mechanic within the game. It does however not make it a genre in itself.

Killing Floor 2 would be a good example of a Co-op PvE/PvP game. Borderlands (and WF) would be examples of PvE Co-op games. In the first mentioned most things are balanced around co-op and intended to be played as co-op, in the other two most things are balanced around solo but can also be enjoyed with others in co-op.

There really should be no confusion between Co-op PvE and PvE Co-op. Confusion regarding such phrases comes down to poor understanding of the language they are written in. No wait I cant say that because it is offensive according to some. 

[Sevek7]

There's been some troll-feeding here and I think we missed some good points that fell in the cracks. (Troll says PvE Co-op and Co-op PvE are different things, anyone who doesn't think so needs to get better with the language. Obvious troll is obvious 🙂)

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

You know my problem with Warframe's PvP?

It has an obtuse skill floor and the difference between new, medium and high skilled players is like the freaking Grand Canyon.

Even now I could go play trash tier casual in CS:GO and have marginal amounts of fun assuming I know how a keyboard and mouse work.

Sure if I wanted to play ranked I'd get flicked and wrecked by every pro with insane twitch reflexes but I can still play at trash tier casual too.

However due to the sheer INSANE mobility Warframe has you literally cannot "just play it" without getting run over, even high-skill freaking fighting games have a better "Pick up and play" nature than Warframe's PvP.

Spam "Casual Scum" at me all you like, but don't praise a high skill floor and then turn around and wonder "WHY IS NOBODY PLAYING THIS" in the same breath.

This is a legitimate, very good point. Due to the mobility system, the skill floor is very high in conclave, which does make it uninviting for new players. Typically, when playing conclave, it's very clear who's new to the game-mode: they stand on the ground a lot, aim glide for too long, bullet jump without rolling and never slide - basically sitting ducks in comparison to people who know how to use mobility. I see this in part as a failure of PvE, because if PvE had challenging content then people might learn how to use mobility effectively when fighting AI enemies, but it just doesn't end up being necessary.

The skill floor has actually been lowered recently due to shield-gating. Before, you could shoot down a tenno from behind before they had a chance to react, so you can then keep all your shields and health for your next encounter. Now, you can remove their shields but then they have lots of time to fight back due to the long invulnerability time. Generally, even if you take down another tenno now, you will lose your shields. Then, on your next encounter, you have only health while your opponent has the benefit not only of the shields but also the invulnerability from shield gating. So, this has brought the skill floor down quite a bit, and more can be done to bring it down even further. 

In short, you're right! But this can be fixed! 🙂 Another thing that might help is also having a skill-based matchmaking system that doesn't match someone with 10 conclave kills against someone with 20k conclave kills. Perhaps we can combine both of these things (reduce skill floor, introduce skill-based matchmaking), to solve the problem you pointed out. Let me know what you think!

Sorry if people have spammed "Casual Scum" at you before, this is not the attitude anyone should have. Please do keep posting legitimate concerns in good faith without fear of what the trolls will do. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Sevek7
Had a lot of spaces below the post, Oops! Removed them now :)

[Felsagger]

Take out the rewards, take out the leader boards and add in dedicated servers for PVP here.

 

Then it will work. Since there is no score recorded at least I learn how other individuals managed their skill set. I learn something new. 

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

18 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Take out the rewards, take out the leader boards and add in dedicated servers for PVP here.

 

Then it will work. Since there is no score recorded at least I learn how other individuals managed their skill set. I learn something new. 

Supposedly there is dedicated servers , at least according to someone in this thread. It would be cool to be able to inspect others load outs tho . 

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Akuma_Asura_ said:

Supposedly there is dedicated servers , at least according to someone in this thread. It would be cool to be able to inspect others load outs tho . 

On PC there are, player hosted dedicated servers. No idea if it is possible to have dedicated player hosted servers on the consoles. Dont think it is since I dont think the PC servers are rented like those used in games such as Battlefield or CoD. Instead they are hosted on clan owned or player owned personal computers afaik.

[Kaotyke]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

You know my problem with Warframe's PvP?

It has an obtuse skill floor and the difference between new, medium and high skilled players is like the freaking Grand Canyon.

Even now I could go play trash tier casual in CS:GO and have marginal amounts of fun assuming I know how a keyboard and mouse work.

Sure if I wanted to play ranked I'd get flicked and wrecked by every pro with insane twitch reflexes but I can still play at trash tier casual too.

However due to the sheer INSANE mobility Warframe has you literally cannot "just play it" without getting run over, even high-skill freaking fighting games have a better "Pick up and play" nature than Warframe's PvP.

Spam "Casual Scum" at me all you like, but don't praise a high skill floor and then turn around and wonder "WHY IS NOBODY PLAYING THIS" in the same breath.

STOP RIGHT THERE, CASUAL SCUM!

You violated the law of Obli---

... 

Well... The skill celling IS rather high... Specially when we put ping into the equation.

The "I emptied 2 clips on this guy and he is not dead" is a very real issue when more players join.

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

You know my problem with Warframe's PvP?

It has an obtuse skill floor and the difference between new, medium and high skilled players is like the freaking Grand Canyon.

Even now I could go play trash tier casual in CS:GO and have marginal amounts of fun assuming I know how a keyboard and mouse work.

Sure if I wanted to play ranked I'd get flicked and wrecked by every pro with insane twitch reflexes but I can still play at trash tier casual too.

However due to the sheer INSANE mobility Warframe has you literally cannot "just play it" without getting run over, even high-skill freaking fighting games have a better "Pick up and play" nature than Warframe's PvP.

Spam "Casual Scum" at me all you like, but don't praise a high skill floor and then turn around and wonder "WHY IS NOBODY PLAYING THIS" in the same breath.

I agree !! This is why I think stamina should return in warframe conclave, the skill ceiling is wayyy to high. Like you said to encourage people to play conclave they need to improve the ability to “pick up and play” Without feeling like utter garbage. Majority of people will always be casuals , I’m not saying turn this into a slow poke game but the skill ceiling needs to be lowered. 

[Aldain]

I'm surprised I actually got responses at all, much less ones that said I had a point.

I was just speaking from the few times I tried Conclave (it was a LONG time ago) and my experience with other high-skill floor games that I tried for 5 minutes like an old one called GunZ: The Duel (or something like that) which also had a comically high skill floor which drove players off like mad.

Things don't need to be CoD level arcade style easy, but most of the footage I've seen of Warframe PvP (because my personal experience is old and foggy memories of getting shot once/twice and dying) the high level play to outside players looks like the player is having a seizure half the time. I'm not a good metric for PvP as I don't tend to play PvP games, but currently Warframe can't transfer its initial PvE gameplay into a PvP environment easily, which not only makes it hard for people to get started but also hard to want to stay.

[(PSN)sdaly96]

The stalker mode would be a nice addition at least, a mode of 4 players vs 1 stalker. Hell add grustrag 3, zanuka and others to the mix

[(XBOX)Darth Escar]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

MOBA FPS and FPS MOBA would be the same thing, since the genre isnt optional as opposed to the co-op part in one the other phrases. And no co-op does not mean a game genre, it refers to a mechanic present in several different genres. It isnt even really a subgenre. So depending on where it is placed in a phrase you can figure out the design approach of the game in question. Co-op being the headliner word implies it is designed to be played co-op, if it comes later down the line it is refering to an optional mechanic within the game. It does however not make it a genre in itself.

Killing Floor 2 would be a good example of a Co-op PvE/PvP game. Borderlands (and WF) would be examples of PvE Co-op games. In the first mentioned most things are balanced around co-op and intended to be played as co-op, in the other two most things are balanced around solo but can also be enjoyed with others in co-op.

There really should be no confusion between Co-op PvE and PvE Co-op. Confusion regarding such phrases comes down to poor understanding of the language they are written in. No wait I cant say that because it is offensive according to some. 

This is stuff that's pretty specific to gaming though. Even assuming all of the things you said about the terminology are true, you can't expect everyone to know that. For example, Warframe is only the third co-op game I've played, and seeing as it requires people to be online, and many things are inaccessible without player interaction, I would've guessed that it's designed around primarily around that aspect, along with many other reasons, like the reward differences.

People just don't learn this stuff without certain experiences, and certain other experiences can teach something different, like how a Pokémon player would have a very different view of what a tank is than a player of whatever MMOs have the other type of tank. The difference between 'co-op PVE' and 'PvE co-op' is even less than that, since it's basically the same thing with a different priority.

Asserting that everyone should know that is just plain toxic.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

11 hours ago, Oreades said:

Yeah no, the fact that it was a toxic quagmire

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are several PvP communities that are toxic from the game being a competitive game by nature. 

League of Legends is notoriously toxic for example. It's also a big success. Dark Sectors at the time, pushed for competitive PvP wars between massive clans. If DE wanted to remove it forever, they would remove clan ownership from all darksectors right now, and make it a normal starchart node. 

It's not a good argument. 

11 hours ago, Oreades said:

Too successfull my Vey Heccin' butt

Yea, it was too successful actually. You have literally thousands of players fighting over it, to the point that it changed the entire atmosphere of the game. 

No dice dude. 

[-BG-StormFighter117]

5 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are several PvP communities that are toxic from the game being a competitive game by nature. 

League of Legends is notoriously toxic for example. It's also a big success. Dark Sectors at the time, pushed for competitive PvP wars between massive clans. If DE wanted to remove it forever, they would remove clan ownership from all darksectors right now, and make it a normal starchart node. 

It's not a good argument. 

Yea, it was too successful actually. You have literally thousands of players fighting over it, to the point that it changed the entire atmosphere of the game. 

No dice dude. 

DE removed the ownership of clans and alliances on the nodes a long time ago (PC). Here is my personal Clan announcement addressing this, 

 

To add about the success, you are 100% correct. In fact, there was tens of thousands.  The armistice essentially Thanos snapped half of them away, raid removal wiped the rest. Now we have a casual universe.

Warframe is a wonderful representation of how much the world has changed in such short years. Before PvP was accepted and fun, but now say the 3 forsaken letters and you're chained, thrown into the river. Speak facts with logic from experience players and inexperienced players tell you no due to ignorance plus their feelings got hurt. Before we had freedom of speech and now our opinions are suppressed and deleted. 

Warframe HAS become extremely casual. The only competitive players left come back to win events or see new content to simply get punished and thrown out. The atmosphere before was not hostile, was not even competitive. Nothing like League or CSGO. It was simply just Warframe, a place to have fun. Some may rebuttal the hostility and toxicity, it happens, but for the most part having walked and talked with Tens of Thousands of players before and now... The games actually more toxic now than before. Though, it's very little.

Here is a thread during the older times. Notice the announcement of PvP and almost everyone there either disregards PvP or accepts it. You say PvP or anything related and the first comment is "NO" or "NAH" with 20 upvotes ez.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by -BG-StormFighter117

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (XB1)Darth Escar said:

Asserting that everyone should know that is just plain toxic.

I'm not expecting everyone to know, but atleast if someone points it out to someone, they should know what they actually point out. Especially when it was in a toxic manner to begin with. What the first person said was true regarding WF not being designed for PvP and the other person started to nitpick about several real PvE things just because they werent co-op, while also not understanding the phrase that the person used that he decided to nitpick on.

Simply pointing out that they are wrong when they are isnt toxic.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, -BG-StormFighter117 said:

Here is a thread during the older times. Notice the announcement of PvP and almost everyone there either disregards PvP or accepts it. You say PvP or anything related and the first comment is "NO" or "NAH" with 20 upvotes ez.

The main reason is because back then it was new, but now it is something that has already failed. My opinion on it back then would have been the opposite of what it is now. The mention of adding PvP would have gotten a massive "Yes! Yes! Yes!" from me at that time. But now, seeing as how DS failed for one reason or another and other PvP modes are on questionable life support the answer has to be "No! No! No!". The time and resources have already gone into it once. And I have the same opinion on raids. Both have been tried, both have had massive issues tied to them. I just dont see the reason to make another attempt at either of the modes.

If either of the two had not been present earlier I would have given them both a yes now, well, raids may have gotten a no still since I havent experienced good non-trinity based raids in the last 20 years.

[Urlan]

34 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The main reason is because back then it was new, but now it is something that has already failed. My opinion on it back then would have been the opposite of what it is now. The mention of adding PvP would have gotten a massive "Yes! Yes! Yes!" from me at that time. But now, seeing as how DS failed for one reason or another and other PvP modes are on questionable life support the answer has to be "No! No! No!". The time and resources have already gone into it once. And I have the same opinion on raids. Both have been tried, both have had massive issues tied to them. I just dont see the reason to make another attempt at either of the modes.

If either of the two had not been present earlier I would have given them both a yes now, well, raids may have gotten a no still since I havent experienced good non-trinity based raids in the last 20 years.

I think that is pretty sound reasoning; I myself am not too fond of Conclave, but played it quite a bit when it came out and did the same with Dark Sector so its not like folk don't develop their reasoning based on experience. I have often felt that perhaps something more akin to Battlefront Classic's modes, sponsored by Teshin and helped run by Simaris might be more engaging to the PVE and PVP as a middleground, while the current deathmatch and capture fhe flag are still there for those that are diehard about the current offerings.

I would agree on the Trials too, great idea; but needed more polish on the handling. They really seemed to be designed for particular warframes and loadouts first, with consumable spam being one of the few ways I saw other warframes get through, which is never fun. I hope both ideas can be reevaluated, polished, and be made into something that isn't just aimed at a small narrow niche of the overall community.