The lazy frames

[Xzorn]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

It's understandable to some degree imo.  You want players who don't have the time to spend a dozen hours a week to not be completely left behind.  And I certainly don't want to have to spend an hour or more in an endless mission just to feel like i'm making good progress on whatever reward i'm chasing.

 

Diminishing Returns. Proven to work. Proven long lasting. Not perfect but certainly better.

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I don't think the majority of players are ignorant of the games core flaws.  It just matters less to them because they don't spend as much time playing as long time dedicated players do.  They're still getting new content to play with often enough.

 

Personally I think it more gets overlooked due to shiny bait taking advantage of addictive behavior & reward systems but perhaps a bit of both.

More hardcore players tend to care less for the rewards and more about the fun / mechanics involved  which have been progressively getting more awful I feel. Frames that worked perfectly fine a few years ago and still work fine in previous content suddenly need reworks because of some cheese immunity or mechanic that makes them less than ideal for said bait content.

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

  Hey there DE employee browsing through this, how you doing? The original purpose of this post was to either suggest changes to make certain frames more active or create a dialogue to discuss what ends up bothering people about the current state of things...and I'm still hung up on evasion😅

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Frames that worked perfectly fine a few years ago and still work fine in previous content suddenly need reworks because of some cheese immunity or mechanic that makes them less than ideal for said bait content.

Banshee, Vauban, Nyx, Loki etc. However in order to really allow these frames in particular to shine enemies in the game need an overhaul. Nyx for example basically relies on enemies to be effective and since they're...dumb to put it lightly, she isn't very effective.

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

More hardcore players tend to care less for the rewards and more about the fun / mechanics involved  which have been progressively getting more awful I feel

Hey hey us casuals like mechanics too (well me at least anyways). I'm not too sure if you and anyone else feel the same way but I think Liches are a good idea implemented in a premature state. Yes of course this is what has become the Warframe way and all but that is a worrying signal to me that it will spoil, rot and fester like all the other good ideas in this game abandoned for more shiny

[Xzorn]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

 Nyx

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

Just now, Xzorn said:

Oh no😂

[Howtoshootgun]

9 hours ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

Nyx for example basically relies on enemies to be effective and since they're...dumb to put it lightly, she isn't very effective.

I disagree hard with this notion that Nyx isnt/wasnt effective because the enemies couldnt pump out dps comparable to saryn or whatever or that she relied in any way on dps of mind controlled/chaosed targets. All her skills were purely to disable enemies so you could ignore them or blow em up with your guns, the things with (normally) a bazillion more dps than the enemy or (generally) any of Nyx skills. But thats how i played and maybe i did it wrong, purely my opinion.

But then i dunno, people who are used to delete rooms with one ability played her and she of course doesnt do that. Mind controlled enemies cant kill S#&$, Absorb the skill which is on 4 which should usually end the world does do piddly damage. What a sucky frame, lets level her and then go back to playing a dps frame. Or lets go on twitch and demand that shed be changed to a dps frame because thats every frame and we never cant have enough dps frames and we are bored or whatever. DE obliged and turned Nyx into something (Disclaimer : Purely my opinion) which does CC worse than before and still isnt a dps frame. Then everyone went back to playing mesa and now all there is are occasional threads on how absorb needs to be a proper nuke.

Its dead Jim. When the spaceship thingie comes around ill try again tho :0

 

 

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

38 minutes ago, Howtoshootgun said:

I disagree hard with this notion that Nyx isnt/wasnt effective because the enemies couldnt pump out dps comparable to saryn

This is what happens when I don't make my intentions clear huh? When I came into this game I did not expect the psychic frame to contribute to DPS in anyway, I was right then and I still hold that notion today. If enemies are never to change then the least I ask is that the exit animation for Absorb be sped up so that I'm not easy pickings for stray bullets and that Nyx gets a way to tell the mind controlled target what to shoot when it can't make up it's mind.

42 minutes ago, Howtoshootgun said:

All her skills were purely to disable enemies so you could ignore them or blow em up with your guns, the things with (normally) a bazillion more dps than the enemy or (generally) any of Nyx skills

That's how I see them as well but the way Mind Control works now...when my minion decides to shoot for once is an odd source of catharsis I cannot find anywhere else. Control a bombard/ napalm and set it loose on its former comrades(stripping armor to help the poor bastard obviously) while I smile maniacally and chant "Yes!! That's how it feels", or control a Lancer and pretend to say in it's head "You don't need to be a Lich, just be my minion". All good fun I can have with Nyx. Of course I could use my weapons but where's the fun in that🙃

55 minutes ago, Howtoshootgun said:

all there is are occasional threads on how absorb needs to be a proper nuke

I think DE has realised that Absorb isn't a ability they want to turn into a nuke. I wish they went all in on making it a charged damage buff for Nyx,  "I'm so done with all your nonsense" is the vibe I get from it now but it's duration is pitifully low. I do not believe Absorb must be a nuke, it looks like it should be but the little bit DE has done with it has changed my perspective on what potential can be realised here with a bit more commitment.

1 hour ago, Howtoshootgun said:

DE obliged and turned Nyx into something (Disclaimer : Purely my opinion) which does CC worse than before

How is she worse at CC, they didn't touch the CC aspect of her much unless you're referring to the change to her passive. In my opinion, Chaos is only as effective as the enemies it confuses, I've sometimes had enemies in 5m of each other both turning and shooting at me who is 10m away. I don't know whether to commend them for being miraculously smart enough to realise they're being manipulated or to be a bit annoyed at inconsistencies that can get me killed.

This is al purely my opinion by the way

 

[Space0ddity]

On 2019-11-19 at 6:32 AM, Pizzarugi said:

Pressing 1 or 4 to nuke rooms of enemies is the apex of laziness. Not only is it lazy for the player running the frame that can do it, it encourages laziness for people who team up with them. Beyond making it easier to report people, leeching wouldn't be such a big issue in the game if people couldn't rely on teaming up with someone who can just blow through the mission without any help.

Don’t say that there are just four DPS frames, now.

Don’t say that Warframe takes more skill than masturbation or arithmetic now, either. We both know that just ain’t the case.

[Miyabi-sama]

1 час назад, Howtoshootgun сказал:

DE obliged and turned Nyx into something (Disclaimer : Purely my opinion) which does CC worse than before and still isnt a dps frame.

Remind me, they removed her disarm chance? That was quite a passive, I miss it hard.

However I agree, people are leaning to the easiest options available. A while ago I was using farming meta, but since I got pretty much everything I wanted in the game switched to having fun. And it is even more amusing when you see people bringing overkill damage to some low level stuff (but you outdamage them regardless). The amount of Ignis-toting Inaros mains I encounter is just disgusting. No wonder, yesterday I rad procced myself on sortie to kill him and avenge his sloppiness of killing me before. Guess what? Bastard ate three (3!!!) full headshot bursts from Tiberon P. and survived with half HP. After that... why bother playing Nyx, Vaub or Banshee? You can stand perfectly still, eat lead and occasionaly swing your OP zaw to remove some nuisance. And then go gorums and rant "Ember needs more tank cuz I like her ass and wanna play her".

P.s. I see you also like frames with abilities enhancing your gunplay, just like me.

[Howtoshootgun]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

How is she worse at CC, they didn't touch the CC aspect of her much unless you're referring to the change to her passive. In my opinion, Chaos is only as effective as the enemies it confuses, I've sometimes had enemies in 5m of each other both turning and shooting at me who is 10m away

If Chaos would make enemies 100% ignore you that would be quite op. You always had the random chance for any chaosed enemy to randomly decide to shoot you. Difference with the old passive thered be also a chance the enemy deciding to randomly shoot you wouldnt have a gun. They replaced a wide area disarm with nothing. Quite a change.

Moot bickering, its done and DE moved on.

EDIT : @Miyabi-sama yes ;_;

Edited November 24, 2019 by Howtoshootgun

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

31 minutes ago, Space0ddity said:

Don’t say that there are just four DPS frames, now.

Don’t say that Warframe takes more skill than masturbation or arithmetic now, either. We both know that just ain’t the case

That isn't the point of the post. The point was to draw attention to four frames I singled out as the most problematic and suggest possible solutions for each one. The issue of skill is a discussion for a different thread but that does not mean that at least three of them can't be roped in line to be more engaging to play.

28 minutes ago, Howtoshootgun said:

If Chaos would make enemies 100% ignore you that would be quite op

I know but they were right next to each other. C'mon if I was standing in between them I'd fine with getting shot. C'mon😂

 

33 minutes ago, Howtoshootgun said:

They replaced a wide area disarm with nothing

Fair, no arguments on that one

 

40 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

And then go gorums and rant "Ember needs more tank cuz I like her ass and wanna play her".

"Ember's tank is too clunky, make easier", "Ember's tank is not instant, make instant", "Why it not Ember's passive, make it passive DE"...this is just for illustrative purposes managing Immolation as intended is an annoyance and should be looked at

[Xzorn]

14 hours ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

Oh no😂

 

She was my most used frame. Around 900 in-mission hours. Tied with Loki for best CC frame but more fun to play. She could protect an entire group from harm on her own long as players knew how to interact with her CC abilities.... Now I play Loki for whatever good CC and Stealth are still worth with in this game.

Sensitive subject for me.

[EinheriarJudith]

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

She was my most used frame. Around 900 in-mission hours. Tied with Loki for best CC frame but more fun to play. She could protect an entire group from harm on her own long as players knew how to interact with her CC abilities.... Now I play Loki for whatever good CC and Stealth are still worth with in this game.

Sensitive subject for me.

bro i still use nyx and banshee despite peoples hate for both of them.

[Xzorn]

11 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

bro i still use nyx and banshee despite peoples hate for both of them.

 

I play Banshee on occasion but there's no longer a reason to play Nyx over Loki.

They ruined her and gave her the same generic template they give all frames now because of how they design content. Nyx worked like a dream outside new trash design content. Wave 80 Defense Solo, no problem. She did her job well in spite of 5-6 year old bugs that still exist. Now Loki is just clearly a better CC frame.

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I play Banshee on occasion but there's no longer a reason to play Nyx over Loki.

They ruined her and gave her the same generic template they give all frames now because of how they design content. Nyx worked like a dream outside new trash design content. Wave 80 Defense Solo, no problem. She did her job well in spite of 5-6 year old bugs that still exist. Now Loki is just clearly a better CC frame.

my problem with loki is if i want invisibility i just use ivara or octavia both are more fun to play even if octavia is lazy.

playing radial disarm spam for so long ive gotten tired of it. not that loki is bad but id rather not go back to it. i agree they should have never added armor strip to nyx. i really hate that they did. but i use nyx for chaos and mind control and those have not changed so nothing really changed for me.

[MegaloStrikeBack]

The only thing wrong with Saryn is perhaps the fact the damage automatically spreads, which can simply be removed. If you feel that even then she is "lazy" make it so only Saryn can spread her spores by either killing the enemy infected, hitting them with Toxic Lash'd weapon or Miasma. Her damage is fine and needs build up to be strong. "But she can nuke low level with one button." That's nice, Limbo can nuke low level as well.

"Octavia makes the game easy." I mean, don't play her? There are many other frames as effective as her that are nowhere near as "boring".

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

4 hours ago, MegaloStrikeBack said:

The only thing wrong with Saryn is perhaps the fact the damage automatically spreads, which can simply be removed. If you feel that even then she is "lazy" make it so only Saryn can spread her spores by either killing the enemy infected, hitting them with Toxic Lash'd weapon or Miasma. Her damage is fine and needs build up to be strong. 

Spores don’t spread unless they die from an outside source like miasma or popped individually by your weapons they can’t automatically spread 

I don’t play saryn in a solo/pub any differently than how I play any melee frame the only difference is I’m using my 1 and 4 to assist in aoe damage while I’m sweeping through the map via my toxic lash empowered melee and saryn doesn’t tank so it’s a don’t get oneshot world and press 2 to maybe not die

For a team built saryn you sit in a frost bubble maintaining your spores acting as a glorified corrosive projection spamming 4 and executing targets to ensure you never lose spores and even sometimes even not pressing 4 to preserve your spore slaves because god forbid you kill enemies too fast 

Edited November 25, 2019 by (PS4)CodyXSavageX

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, (PS4)CodyXSavageX said:

For a team built saryn you sit in a frost bubble maintaining your spores acting as a glorified corrosive projection spamming 4 and executing targets to ensure you never lose spores and even sometimes even not pressing 4 to preserve your spore slaves because god forbid you kill enemies too fast 

 

I hate that they changed Venom Dose to Corrosive. +%Toxic was so useful for groups. Turn it into Gas, Viral, Corrosive or Pure Toxic.

It doesn't even make sense. "Venom" is literally a toxin.

[Oreades]

Or we can always accept that there are just other playstyles that we don't particularly enjoy but respect  their right to exist and move on..... 

 

[Shaburanigud]

6 hours ago, Oreades said:

Or we can always accept that there are just other playstyles that we don't particularly enjoy but respect  their right to exist and move on..... 

 

Which is why it is optimal only to increase build diversity and not diminish already existing ones if possible.
And try to make those diverse builds balanced 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Shaburanigud

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

7 hours ago, Oreades said:

Or we can always accept that there are just other playstyles that we don't particularly enjoy but respect  their right to exist and move on..... 

 

We've still got to balance them though

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

11 hours ago, MegaloStrikeBack said:

The only thing wrong with Saryn is perhaps the fact the damage automatically spreads

It's the automatic accumulation for me, the spreading is fine imo.

 

11 hours ago, MegaloStrikeBack said:

"Octavia makes the game easy." I mean, don't play her?

Currently avoiding her like the plague but I always sigh when I scroll past her "I wish playing you were as fun as everything else about you", allow me to dream okay😪

Edited November 26, 2019 by (PS4)RazorPhoenix970

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, Shaburanigud said:

Which is why it is optimal only to increase build diversity and not diminish already existing ones if possible.
And try to make those diverse builds balanced 

Define build diversity? Seems to me like having a few quote unqote lazy frames is exactly the definition of diversity. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

We've still got to balance them though

How exactly does one do that and what sense of balance are we shooting for? 

Because all I ever see when it comes to these topics can always boil down to "remove the thing I don't like about the frames" full stop. 

I can say full well that I hate mesa, I find her boring to play with and boring to play but I don't begrudge Mesas for existing nor the people who enjoy her (unless they brag non ironically about being able to aim). In fact the only change to date that I've suggested has been to revert her back to a stat stick, not to diminish her strength (hell it might actually make her stronger *spoopy moosic*) but to decouple her from Exalted weapons. Since it seems like all of the Exalted changes DE makes are hamfisted attempts to reign in their perceived problem child and as far as I'm concerned Peacemaker isn't an Exalted weapon it's a heccin power. 

Mesa being a more specific example, I could go into details about the others but the'd be relative.

 

Also for the record I think Evasion is a heccin horrific mechanic... and that's something coming from someone who plays a ton of Titania. Just RNGing out of being one shot because essentially everything can one shot you IS NOT survivability, it's heccing gambling. I would far prefer being able to take a shot to the face over failing an RNG roll, taking one hit from anything and being down.   

Edited November 26, 2019 by Oreades

[(PSN)RazorPhoenix970]

3 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Seems to me like having a few quote unqote lazy frames is exactly the definition of diversity.

I guess I'll chime in and say that said diversity should also be good for the general health of the game, which quote unquote lazy frames are not.

4 minutes ago, Oreades said:

How exactly does one do that and what sense of balance are we shooting for?

Look through the thread and you can get a vague idea. People want a more engaging game, I want these frames to be more engaging to play, some people want more interesting  game modes. We can achieve this somewhat by first addressing the issue that allows these frames to exist and generic rework templates to exist, that being the poor mechanical foundation the game is built on. If my changes to Mesa were to be implemented let's say there'd be an uproar in the community because they lost one of the best ways to deal with a broken game, I'd argue she's better for it because you're more involved in playing her to no avail of course. Unfortunately as it stands right now the game rewards you for minimising interaction with it as much as possible, now minmaxing is fine as long as it is a difficult process but in WF it isnt. When people start facerolling through whatever content you release you have two options 1) develop content that directly challenges the power of the player 2) look at the underlying systems that allow players to consistently undermine any and all content you release, DE has failed on the former therefore must address the latter.

Before someone comes in and says "but other frames can also nuke the game" or "just don't play it if you don't like it", that is no excuse to not have a discussion about this.

[Xzorn]

It's just simple coop Vs anti-coop.

Rhino gives everyone 2x or more damage output. That's coop. Saryn eats all the enemies before they can be seen. that's anti-coop.
Old Saryn Spores by comparison which proc'd Viral on enemies was coop. Everyone essentially did double damage.
Octavia is both. Amp / Metronome are coop while Mallet is anti.

A lot of this is because these "lazy frames" are out of place. Put Saryn at lvl 400. Totally different story. Sure she'll prolly still lead in kills but it's due to damage tick speed not specifically damage potency. Same with Mesa. Once she has to ramp up and aim other players will find it far easier to get kills next to her. Octavia on the other hand will continue to be anti-coop due to the scaling of Mallet. There's no way around that. She's broken.

[kwlingo]

4 hours ago, (PS4)RazorPhoenix970 said:

Before someone comes in and says "but other frames can also nuke the game" or "just don't play it if you don't like it", that is no excuse to not have a discussion about this.

I agree mostly veteran players say thing because they don't want to lose the lazy playing they already have become accustomed to for so many years. Or the other thing they say is just go play another game. lol Grendel mission was a blast after finally doing it a few days ago. Saryn was doing damage but was so little compared to when she has range and 200% power strength for her spores to do a 100% proc chance. Some of the best frame for those mission were the old frames like Trinity for support and Frost for defense. I dont care how good anyone is you sure will be struggling trying to play that game mode solo. So many hate it because they relay on their operators to replenish health/ energy but with out all those they become just like the new players entering that game. The feeling of low health and energy and the risk of failing the mission. Co-Op was a must for them missions. I think we need more of those missions.