Nerf Serration and Buff Faction Dmg

[Tetraneon]

I honestly believe war frame will be more fulfilling and will force people to use different load outs
if they nerfed all Base DMG mods, and increased Faction DMG, and Status Mods (Duration,Perc,Types),
nerfing Base DMG, will by default reduce reliance on Crit.

I see so many people playing with the exact same loud-out for every single mission,
with no understanding for how to mod for factions, but they do fine,
and they have no reason to learn how the mechanics of the game actually work.

 

[Aldain]

Faction damage won't matter until the Grineer aren't leaps and bounds more durable than the other two factions.

Nerfing base damage won't solve the armor scaling issue and why people tend to just take Corrosive or Viral/Slash for everything.

[T.Hoagie]

"Force people to use different load outs" Predicated upon your opinions of what is best for the game.

How about, no, never. You don't get to decide how I get the play the game. You play how YOU want to play, I will play how I want to play.

 

[0_The_F00l]

I am of the "make serration like mods innate to weapon Levelling instead of a separate mod" camp. 

[ZeroX4]

54 minutes ago, Tetraneon said:

I honestly believe war frame will be more fulfilling and will force people to use different load outs
if they nerfed all Base DMG mods, and increased Faction DMG, and Status Mods (Duration,Perc,Types),
nerfing Base DMG, will by default reduce reliance on Crit.

I see so many people playing with the exact same loud-out for every single mission,
with no understanding for how to mod for factions, but they do fine,
and they have no reason to learn how the mechanics of the game actually work.

 

that alone would lead into tons of host migrations since someone would have wrong loadout for a mission
great idea

[40PE]

I honesty think -since years now, not a new thing-, that all base dmg. mods should be built-in by default into all weapons. While you lvl-up a weapon, serration related dmg % should be accumulated on the weapon by default up to lvl30 of the weapon, where it reaches the maximum % worth of dmg plus of the particular mod.

We should get rid of this mod(s) for all weapons, it is a mandatory mod, there isn't really any synergy related these mods anyways. We just "need to use them".

so one extra mod space, and we could have a tiny bit of more versatility regarding the modding. would be fun.

[(XBOX)yepbeeble]

1 hour ago, Tetraneon said:

I honestly believe war frame will be more fulfilling and will force people to use different load outs
if they nerfed all Base DMG mods, and increased Faction DMG, and Status Mods (Duration,Perc,Types),
nerfing Base DMG, will by default reduce reliance on Crit.

I see so many people playing with the exact same loud-out for every single mission,
with no understanding for how to mod for factions, but they do fine,
and they have no reason to learn how the mechanics of the game actually work.

 

I feel like you're the type of person to run Augur Pact and not Hornet Strike and wonder why your Stug is doing no damage.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 hour ago, Tetraneon said:

I honestly believe war frame will be more fulfilling and will force people to use different load outs
if they nerfed all Base DMG mods, and increased Faction DMG, and Status Mods (Duration,Perc,Types),
nerfing Base DMG, will by default reduce reliance on Crit.

I see so many people playing with the exact same loud-out for every single mission,
with no understanding for how to mod for factions, but they do fine,
and they have no reason to learn how the mechanics of the game actually work.

 

I fail to see how this would reduce reliance on crit. If anything, it would increase it, as you would now be using crit as a final multiplier to make up for lower base damage.

[Raikh]

Faction damage is already its own multiplier and double to triple dips on certain status effects which makes it quite good for certain builds. The issue is not base damage mods.
Although I would be in favor of removing them and making them  just innate as its not particularly interesting for modding and would open up space for more interesting choices.

Faction damage is unpopular not because its not worth using but because its a huge pain to use. I certainly don't want to switch my loadout every goddamn mission, I also don't want to dedicate all my wepaon loadouts to different Banes or switch a mod every time. Faction dmg isn't interesting for modding either. Its also just flat damage at the end of the deay and its not interesting decision making as I know which faction I will fight in what mission, its a tedious no-brainer.

Elements are a way better way to adjust your loadout to a specific situation and is more nuanced, we would just need better balanced elements and enemy factions to play it out as you can get away with basically anything against unarmored enemies and need to only care about armor and quite ironically slash is just super good against both so there is your meta.

[KIREEK]

Faction damage is actually pretty useful

If you had done the math back when we didn't even have primed mods, a common trend would be to make your build with 1 combo element like corrosive and then you would be left with a slot for something else, like extra damage and so you had a few option to choose from, if you wanted to fight grineer and the biggest opponent was a heavy gunner you could:

• Use a dual stat mod (60% + 60% status) to increase said corrosive damage
• Use a 90% elemental mod like fire or ice, more diversity but not that much better or worse for heavy gunners specifically
• Use a Faction mod

The math for heavy gunners would place the faction mod on top by a very slim margin (30% wasn't exactly a random number they placed in, afterall the mod isn't exactly that rare), which is why Primed variants are a no brainer, 55% is indeed better than 30%

Sadly, after the changes you said, some players will continue to copy builds and not really learn much, you can't change player mentality that much, some players believed primed faction mods were primed disapointment and they are depending on the player using them.

While i understand your concern, remember that you can't be responsible for another player's game, if they make a decision, let them, for better (more overall profit) or worse (more grind) that's what they want, who am i or you to say otherwise?

[Tetraneon]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Faction damage won't matter until the Grineer aren't leaps and bounds more durable than the other two factions.

Nerfing base damage won't solve the armor scaling issue and why people tend to just take Corrosive or Viral/Slash for everything.

but if corrosive.viral/slash does nothing against corpus shields...
you wont use it

[Tetraneon]

1 hour ago, T.Hoagie said:

"Force people to use different load outs" Predicated upon your opinions of what is best for the game.

How about, no, never. You don't get to decide how I get the play the game. You play how YOU want to play, I will play how I want to play.

 

because youre a lazy gamer that does not want to actually put effort into winning?
just take saryn tap 1 and 4 and good to go right...

[Tetraneon]

39 minutes ago, ZeroZX4 said:

that alone would lead into tons of host migrations since someone would have wrong loadout for a mission
great idea

In the begin yes, but people will learn to use correct loadout for missions eventually..

but it also goes with another one of my ideas,
where before you start a mission (while waiting for people to load)
it allows you to communicate with your team and you can 
choose different loadouts (not change mods or anything)
Warframe already has the loadouts, that you can pre configure...

just allow someone to cycle between those

 

[Tetraneon]

34 minutes ago, 40PE said:

I honesty think -since years now, not a new thing-, that all base dmg. mods should be built-in by default into all weapons. While you lvl-up a weapon, serration related dmg % should be accumulated on the weapon by default up to lvl30 of the weapon, where it reaches the maximum % worth of dmg plus of the particular mod.

We should get rid of this mod(s) for all weapons, it is a mandatory mod, there isn't really any synergy related these mods anyways. We just "need to use them".

so one extra mod space, and we could have a tiny bit of more versatility regarding the modding. would be fun.

I would rather have that dmg linked to the players rank rather than the weapons....
Would actually finally be a good enough reason to rank up in WF... hahhaa

[Wyrmius_Prime]

27 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I fail to see how this would reduce reliance on crit. If anything, it would increase it, as you would now be using crit as a final multiplier to make up for lower base damage.

Crit is a multiplication between your damage and your crit factors. Stacking crit with diminishing returns, due to additive scaling, to multiply 0 base damage will still result 0 damage even after crit.

[Tetraneon]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)razberryX said:

I feel like you're the type of person to run Augur Pact and not Hornet Strike and wonder why your Stug is doing no damage.

thats chancing it lol...

my point is that dmg mods make up for too much of the dmg you do,
which means even with the incorrect status types, you still do plenty dmg to enemies

[SprinKah]

1 hour ago, Tetraneon said:

I honestly believe war frame will be more fulfilling and will force people to use different load outs
if they nerfed all Base DMG mods, and increased Faction DMG, and Status Mods (Duration,Perc,Types),
nerfing Base DMG, will by default reduce reliance on Crit.

I see so many people playing with the exact same loud-out for every single mission,
with no understanding for how to mod for factions, but they do fine,
and they have no reason to learn how the mechanics of the game actually work.

 

Ew, you do you but I aint wasting my time going in and out just to switch over a different build for another faction. 

Just build for Grineer. If it can beat Grineer, it can beat Corpus and Infested and that's just the fact of life. 

[Tetraneon]

20 minutes ago, Raikh said:

Faction damage is already its own multiplier and double to triple dips on certain status effects which makes it quite good for certain builds. The issue is not base damage mods.
Although I would be in favor of removing them and making them  just innate as its not particularly interesting for modding and would open up space for more interesting choices.

Faction damage is unpopular not because its not worth using but because its a huge pain to use. I certainly don't want to switch my loadout every goddamn mission, I also don't want to dedicate all my wepaon loadouts to different Banes or switch a mod every time. Faction dmg isn't interesting for modding either. Its also just flat damage at the end of the deay and its not interesting decision making as I know which faction I will fight in what mission, its a tedious no-brainer.

Elements are a way better way to adjust your loadout to a specific situation and is more nuanced, we would just need better balanced elements and enemy factions to play it out as you can get away with basically anything against unarmored enemies and need to only care about armor and quite ironically slash is just super good against both so there is your meta.

When i refer to status damage i refer to

Impact/Slash/Puncture/Heat/Cold/Toxin/Elec and all the other combinations,
as well as Status %, Status Duration, as well as Dmg vs Corpus...

 

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

This would just make warframe to Loadout Manager(tm). I can think of no way how faction damage can become something interesting.

But I'll admit that base dmg mods shouldn't be a (mandatory) thing. They are way to strong to not be used.

Edited November 20, 2019 by (PS4)de_sch0sch
Base dmg mods

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Crit is a multiplication between your damage and your crit factors. Stacking crit with diminishing returns, due to additive scaling, to multiply 0 base damage will still result 0 damage even after crit.

Yes, but if you reduce base damage, then building for crit will become mandatory to make up for it.

The entire system is a bunch of multipliers, applied in the order: base>elemental>crit>moveset>heavy (combo mult and mods)>faction. Not sure which order heavy and moveset are in with each other, or which order the combo and the heavy attack mods apply to each other, but that's the basic idea.

If you reduce base, then every other multiplier becomes more important, including crit. So while it might make faction damage mods more necessary, it will do the same to crit, which is something the OP claimed to not want.

[Tetraneon]

32 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

I fail to see how this would reduce reliance on crit. If anything, it would increase it, as you would now be using crit as a final multiplier to make up for lower base damage.

600 dmg * 100% crit chance * 5.5 crit dmg = +-3300 sustained dmg
300 dmg  * 100% crit chance * 5.5 crit dmg =  +- 1650 sustained dmg

these are examples dont believe my numbers..

Reducing base dmg would result in lower crits,

Im fine with where the elemental dmg mods are..
But things like status % (for melee they have the status stacks on combo which is cool atleast),
Status Duration in my opinion need some work

At the end of the day,
the best builds should always be a mix between Crit and Status Builds...
 

[Tetraneon]

5 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Yes, but if you reduce base damage, then building for crit will become mandatory to make up for it.

The entire system is a bunch of multipliers, applied in the order: base>elemental>crit>moveset>heavy (combo mult and mods)>faction. Not sure which order heavy and moveset are in with each other, or which order the combo and the heavy attack mods apply to each other, but that's the basic idea.

If you reduce base, then every other multiplier becomes more important, including crit. So while it might make faction damage mods more necessary, it will do the same to crit, which is something the OP claimed to not want.

If you are not already putting crit mods on your weapons then youre mission out on dmg...

and i proposed no increase to crit mods...

thus in totality, it would not be as good as it is now.

We have many weapons that easily get to 10k Of a element,
with all the dmg/multishot/element mods then you add crit % and crit dmg (which can easily hit 5.5x)


obviously with a DMG mod not giving you 120% dmg but rather only 30%,
that total of 10k will be a lot less...

however with changing status mods,
you could build for

30 sec status duration,
80% status chance,
80% crit chance,
5.5 crit dmg

4000 Radiation...



 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

Just now, Tetraneon said:

600 dmg * 100% crit chance * 5.5 crit dmg = +-3300 sustained dmg
300 dmg  * 100% crit chance * 5.5 crit dmg =  +- 1650 sustained dmg

these are examples dont believe my numbers..

Reducing base dmg would result in lower crits,

Im fine with where the elemental dmg mods are..
But things like status % (for melee they have the status stacks on combo which is cool atleast),
Status Duration in my opinion need some work

At the end of the day,
the best builds should always be a mix between Crit and Status Builds...
 

1 hour ago, Tetraneon said:

nerfing Base DMG, will by default reduce reliance on Crit.

You just contradicted yourself. As it stands,

600 damage * 25% crit * 2x crit damage = ~750 sustained DPS

300 damage * 25% crit * 2x crit damage = ~375 sustained DPS

300 damage * 190% crit (blood rush) * 3.8x crit damage (organ shatter) = ~1896 Sustained DPS

So while the overall damage from crit will go down, the reliance on crit will go up, to counteract the reduction to base.

 

[T.Hoagie]

3 hours ago, Tetraneon said:

because youre a lazy gamer that does not want to actually put effort into winning?
just take saryn tap 1 and 4 and good to go right...

Right, because I don't want someone deciding how I get to play a game I'm "lazy". Love the elitism coming out you, getting mad because someone else doesn't want to play the game that YOU decide they should.

[Tetraneon]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)de_sch0sch said:

 I can think of no way how faction damage can become something interesting.

 

It would actually require you to know how the game works...
not just run in witht the same loadout every time,
which means learning more about actual weapons,
not using same weapons for every single mission,
learning more about the status types and what they actually do