Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[nslay]

7 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

This premise works in something like Overwatch, where all of the heroes are ludicrously powerful and thus even each other out. But that works because the heroes exclusively fight other heroes. That means something different in PvE, because in PvE, you have to fight AI enemies.

And to top it off, the special event PvE missions in Overwatch include enemies that are not trivial for the overpowered heroes!

[Rawbeard]

10 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

but they might still be way too powerful in comparison to enemies

please play past level 10 enemies 😉

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

47 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

well, I didn't just guess while using this chart though:

A. That chart is visual vomit, and nowhere does it actually show the raw percentage of players using nuke frames vs those who don't. It's mostly breaking down frame usage by Mastery Rank, which is  in no way indicative of popularity or skill as a whole, since it is fairly easy to skew that rating due to how ridiculously simple it is to achieve a high rank, without actually learning anything about the game.

B. I if recall, that chart was made using data gathered from PC, so it really only represents a portion of the population. A population that is wildly different from console.

[nslay]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

A. That chart is visual vomit, and nowhere does it actually show the raw percentage of players using nuke frames vs those who don't. It's mostly breaking down frame usage by Mastery Rank, which is  in no way indicative of popularity or skill as a whole, since it is fairly easy to skew that rating due to how ridiculously simple it is to achieve a high rank, without actually learning anything about the game.

B. I if recall, that chart was made using data gathered from PC, so it really only represents a portion of the population. A population that is wildly different from console.

What they should have done was make a graph with circular objects and circular groupings as described below:

So you have 27-28 circular groups, one for each MR... the radius of these shall reflect the sample size of the respective MR. The MR circle shall have a label indicating the MR it reflects. Inside the MR circle shall be 42 circles one for each frame, color coded and labeled with text (abbreviations or full name). The radius of these 42 circles shall reflect the usage frequency and shall be proportional in size to the encompassing MR circle.

This would be orders of magnitude easier to read because there would be text labels and clear separation between the elements... unlike the above histogram-like chart with ambiguous colors. On top of that, it shows you more information than the histogram chart!

And how would you make such a graph? GraphViz! A really neat free and open source graph (graph theoretic, not plots) visualization tool. You can make a script that makes the simple DOT file (text-based) and make very fancy graph-based visualizations.

https://graphviz.org/

EDIT: I'm going to an example DOT graph of this concept when I get home and post it in feedback. That histogram visualization they have is horrendous even if it looks cool.

Edited December 12, 2019 by nslay

[YUNoJump]

4 hours ago, OmegaVoid said:

"Only viable option" is stretching it. Volt, Equinox and Mesa spring immediately to mind as viable. Saryn makes it a bit easier, and in a farming game it's not surprising that makes her ubiquitous, especially when in pub you'll often as not lose half the squad after ~Zone 3 'cos they're done leveling.

There are certainly other options, but Saryn is clearly the absolute top of the list by a long shot. People talk way more about SO Saryn than they do any other frame.

4 hours ago, -Kittens- said:

Except she's viable at everything; making the enemy dead removes having to lock the enemy down, the only instance of oh no someone else does it better is equinox and harrow locking down Demolysts or using a equinox limbo wombocombo to never kill any enemies in Defection and thus never raise the enemy level. In any other case only frames with scaling direct damage like Octavia have a chance of reaching Saryn's efficiency.

She's viable, but i feel like her kit is too lopsided. I'm not really a Saryn fanatic, but from what I can tell, Spores is far more powerful than anything else in the kit. Molt is her only protection other than hoping enemies die before shooting her, and without the regen augment it's kinda lackluster. It means Saryn struggles to actually be where combat is. Toxic Lash just seems like a token damage boost, instantly popping Spores doesn't seem that useful when they're already really easy to hit. Miasma is probably her second-best ability, but it's really just a PBAoE that you cast in the middle of a room to get more damage out of Spores. DE has been fighting hard to remove idle, low-effort gameplay, but Saryn is one of the most egregious examples of that practice currently in the game. Max out power range, throw out Spores, wait for the number of infected to get big while you hide in a corner, maybe pop Miasma, if the Spores number gets low then come out and shoot a guy, and repeat.

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

if everyone is OP... then challenge is effectively removed from the starchart and missions will devolve into a contest of "who nukes the room first".

FTFY.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

36 minutes ago, nslay said:

What they should have done was make a graph with circular objects and circular groupings as described below:

So you have 27-28 circular groups, one for each MR... the radius of these shall reflect the sample size of the respective MR. The MR circle shall have a label indicating the MR it reflects. Inside the MR circle shall be 42 circles one for each frame, color coded and labeled with text (abbreviations or full name). The radius of these 42 circles shall reflect the usage frequency and shall be proportional in size to the encompassing MR circle.

This would be orders of magnitude easier to read because there would be text labels and clear separation between the elements... unlike the above histogram-like chart with ambiguous colors. On top of that, it shows you more information than the histogram chart!

And how would you make such a graph? GraphViz! A really neat free and open source graph (graph theoretic, not plots) visualization tool. You can make a script that makes the simple DOT file (text-based) and make very fancy graph-based visualizations.

https://graphviz.org/

EDIT: I'm going to an example DOT graph of this concept when I get home and post it in feedback. That histogram visualization they have is horrendous even if it looks cool.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. After seeing that graph, I'm thinking even the simplest pie chart would've been so much better.

Makes me wonder who made that, and who thought it was entirely okay.

Edited December 12, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
added something

[MirageKnight]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Makes me wonder who made that, and who thought it was entirely okay.

Rebecca?

She does prepare some stuff for the streams after all.

[CuChulainnWD]

33 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

There are certainly other options, but Saryn is clearly the absolute top of the list by a long shot. People talk way more about SO Saryn than they do any other frame.

She's viable, but i feel like her kit is too lopsided. I'm not really a Saryn fanatic, but from what I can tell, Spores is far more powerful than anything else in the kit. Molt is her only protection other than hoping enemies die before shooting her, and without the regen augment it's kinda lackluster. It means Saryn struggles to actually be where combat is. Toxic Lash just seems like a token damage boost, instantly popping Spores doesn't seem that useful when they're already really easy to hit. Miasma is probably her second-best ability, but it's really just a PBAoE that you cast in the middle of a room to get more damage out of Spores. DE has been fighting hard to remove idle, low-effort gameplay, but Saryn is one of the most egregious examples of that practice currently in the game. Max out power range, throw out Spores, wait for the number of infected to get big while you hide in a corner, maybe pop Miasma, if the Spores number gets low then come out and shoot a guy, and repeat.

Except for the fact to get the most out of Saryn, when I play her, I do not use her Miasma, I use her Sprores, Toxic lash, then go to town meleeing everything, As in actively getting involved in the combat. If I approach a group of shooty mobs, I pop a Molt before wading in and going to tow. Effectively using her entire kit except for Miasma, used only in emergencies if an area needs immediate clearance alla revive an ally.  Her  Miasma does not really work well for kill count affinity gain compared to her spores being allowed to spread.

Edited December 12, 2019 by CuChulainnWD

[Renegade343]

12 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Rebecca?

She does prepare some stuff for the streams after all.

Then she's not really putting her Bachelors degree in Arts and Science to work, is she now?

[MirageKnight]

2 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

Then she's not really putting her Bachelors degree in Arts and Science to work, is she now?

That kind of depends on what she majored in, but mostly agreed.

[IceColdHawk]

Was just browsing reddit randomly until i found someone using Baruuk and easily keeping up with a Saryn during ESO.

Spoiler

When a pacifist frame can keep up with the so called "leaves no kills for anybody" frame like that...just some food for thought.

It's all a matter of setup and engagement/skill. Saryn isn't as ridiculous as some people like to claim here. Nukes entire rooms and keeps others from participating...good joke.

[Renegade343]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

So you have 27-28 circular groups, one for each MR... the radius of these shall reflect the sample size of the respective MR. So you have 27-28 circular groups, one for each MR... the radius of these shall reflect the sample size of the respective MR.

No, don't do that, because you run into the problem that once you make the size differences significant, the smallest MR grouping graph is going to be rather difficult to read. Given that MR28 is significantly small, it's going to be ugly and difficult for other people to read. Trust me, I've read enough papers to dread small graphs.

Work with constant radius, list how many people in that MR below the circle, and make it large enough to see.

1 hour ago, nslay said:

Inside the MR circle shall be 42 circles one for each frame, color coded and labeled with text (abbreviations or full name). The radius of these 42 circles shall reflect the usage frequency and shall be proportional in size to the encompassing MR circle.

Again, those circles are going to be too small to read. Just go with column charts, make 27-28 discrete charts instead, since the screen looks wide enough to accommodate enough frames for each chart. Trying to jam everything together is not always the way.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

When a pacifist frame can keep up with the so called "leaves no kills for anybody" frame like that...just some food for thought.

I mean that Sayrn could have been REALLY bad at their job.

I've had that happen with me as Excalibur, sometimes you just have a clumsy player of a powerful frame.

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Renegade343 said:

No, don't do that, because you run into the problem that once you make the size differences significant, the smallest MR grouping graph is going to be rather difficult to read. Given that MR28 is significantly small, it's going to be ugly and difficult for other people to read. Trust me, I've read enough papers to dread small graphs.

Work with constant radius, list how many people in that MR below the circle, and make it large enough to see.

Again, those circles are going to be too small to read. Just go with column charts, make 27-28 discrete charts instead, since the screen looks wide enough to accommodate enough frames for each chart. Trying to jam everything together is not always the way.

Who said I would let the circles get that small? Come on man! I make these kinds of figures for papers... although I would have preferred a table to that mess of a chart. Nice to be able to read numbers.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, Aldain said:

I mean that Sayrn could have been REALLY bad at their job.

I've had that happen with me as Excalibur, sometimes you just have a clumsy player of a powerful frame.

ESO having higher levels and the damage distribution tells me that the Baruuk had no trouble oneclapping enemies' souls away whereas Saryn has to ramp up their damage first and also keep it up. The way spores work also give Saryn an easy "killsteal" feature in whereas others deal far more damage but the kills ultimately get contributed to Saryn. Especially in higher levels, Saryn requires some time to kill enemies whereas other frames or weapons can just bash them in a heartbeat.

Sure, not everyone plays the same but even if we take like 500 kills from Baruuk, they'd still have way over 1000 and that to me looks all but what is being claimed in here in that Saryn supposedly keeps others from "enjoying the game". I mean i can see that if you enter ESO with say, Ivara and a bow for example, a Saryn probably would make you look very old.

[Renegade343]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

Who said I would let the circles get that small? Come on man! I make these kinds of figures for papers... although I would have preferred a table to that mess of a chart. Nice to be able to read numbers.

Then you also encounter the problem that some of the circles can get too big to fit, assuming that there's a significant difference between some MR groups. Which is why I don't think having a changing radius in relation to amount of people in a certain MR is a good idea, and for data presentation in general. It's too fancy and finicky when they should be direct.

I've written enough papers and made enough presentations to know from experience that people are going to like having a simple, plain graph over something with bells and whistles.

EDIT: And about numbers, those are normalized values. Needs absolute values working together to give the whole picture.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Renegade343

[nslay]

2 minutes ago, Renegade343 said:

Then you also encounter the problem that some of the circles can get too big to fit, assuming that there's a significant difference between some MR groups. Which is why I don't think having a changing radius in relation to amount of people in a certain MR is a good idea, and for data presentation in general. It's too fancy and finicky when they should be direct.

I've written enough papers and made enough presentations to know from experience that people are going to like having a simple, plain graph over something with bells and whistles.

EDIT: And about numbers, those are normalized values. Needs absolute values working together to give the whole picture.

Just wait and see. The ones that would ordinarily be too small would instead take on a minimum radius large enough to accommodate readable text... to make up for that, can add a line pointing out an actual number or a footnote. Same with the large ones. It doesn't have to super strict because it's for qualitative inspection.... something somebody can glance at and get the big picture on usage.

Also, while it would be possible to show all 28 of these MR circle visualizations, it's probably better to stratify into something like 3 separate visualizations (e.g. MR 0-10, 10-20 and 20-28).

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

16 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Was just browsing reddit randomly until i found someone using Baruuk and easily keeping up with a Saryn during ESO.

  Reveal hidden contents

When a pacifist frame can keep up with the so called "leaves no kills for anybody" frame like that...just some food for thought.

It's all a matter of setup and engagement/skill. Saryn isn't as ridiculous as some people like to claim here. Nukes entire rooms and keeps others from participating...good joke.

I've run into Baruuks in ESO. The last one could barely keep up with my Volt and the Frost. Baruuk is a frame that largely depends on the skill and experience of the player. If I picked up Baruuk, levelled him, and then took him into ESO I would probably be failing miserably.

In contrast, Saryn is relatively easy to build for, and moderately easy to obtain (I got a full set trying to farm for Chroma). Playing her semi-effectively doesn't require a lot of mods or arcanes, much like Volt or Mesa.

That's like comparing an Eidolon Mirage to Chroma, and then saying Chroma isn't so ridiculous (in terms of boss killing), because a Mirage could do it.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

45 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

Rebecca?

She does prepare some stuff for the streams after all.

Ah yes, the master mind behind Revenant's "vampire theme".

[IceColdHawk]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

That's like comparing an Eidolon Mirage to Chroma, and then saying Chroma isn't so ridiculous (in terms of boss killing), because a Mirage could do it.

I mean he isn't because Banshee exists (1000% additive dmg multiplier vs. 1000%+ multiplicative dmg multiplier). Ever fought Kela De Thaym with a Banshee around? Can't blame you if you haven't since everyone is too busy celebrating Chroma (just because so many abilities and status procs don't work on eidolons...) and coming up with reworks for Banshee 😄 

Edited December 12, 2019 by IceColdHawk

[Renegade343]

1 minute ago, nslay said:

Just wait and see. The ones that would ordinarily be too small would instead take on a minimum radius large enough to accommodate readable text... to make up for that, can add a line pointing out an actual number or a footnote

I'm saying that you then encounter the possibility of a circle being too large. Of course, you can then adjust minimum and maximum radius, but then at that point might as well every circle for representing MR constant. Saves some time and headache fiddling with the radius range.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

I mean he isn't because Banshee exists. Ever fought Kela De Thaym with a Banshee around? Can't blame you if you haven't since everyone is too busy celebrating Chroma (just because so many abilities and status procs don't work on eidolons...) and coming up with reworks for Banshee 😄 

There are a couple of frames who are good at general boss killing, but during NWS1 and currently with Eidolon/Ropalolyst/Orb hunts, Chroma has mostly remained indomitable (largely due to the cheap nullify mechanics).

Ash worked pretty well for Kela, but I haven't done the arena in a while, so I don't how well he holds now.

[MirageKnight]

26 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

ESO having higher levels and the damage distribution tells me that the Baruuk had no trouble oneclapping enemies' souls away

Not too surprising. His 4 can be really devastating when modded heavily for crit. It also kinda depends on the rest of the loadout, but still.

[CuChulainnWD]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

Was just browsing reddit randomly until i found someone using Baruuk and easily keeping up with a Saryn during ESO.

  Hide contents

When a pacifist frame can keep up with the so called "leaves no kills for anybody" frame like that...just some food for thought.

It's all a matter of setup and engagement/skill. Saryn isn't as ridiculous as some people like to claim here. Nukes entire rooms and keeps others from participating...good joke.

I bet they were using miasma and not spores exclusively, and I bet they had a much higher Strength build than what is required.