Can't seem to kill RJ enemies with AW

[DrakeWurrum]

One complaint I do have about Railjack content so far is I'm unable to kill anything while in Archwing. My typical loadout is Amesha, Fluctus, and whatever melee weapon I feel like using. Lately Agkuza. This loadout actually works well in basic Archwing missions. Fluctus tears all enemies to shred, Amesha keeps me from dying, and melee spam works regardless of which one I use.

Not the case in Railjack. Fluctus projectiles never hit fighters. Mostly it's because they're faster than my Amesha, but I can't seem to hit them even when they're charging right at me. But that's not the worst of it, because I can probably just use a different Archgun...

I can't melee them. In normal Archwing content, when I try to melee an enemy, my Archwing will suddenly speed-rush to the target and start wailing away. I usually use this to zip around the combat theater rapidly while slashing down anything nearby.
But in Railjack, I don't rush to the enemy. I just start flailing my melee weapon. Which basically means melee won't work and I have to rely on my Archgun... that apparently can't hit fighters.

The result is that so far in Railjack, my Archwing is delegated to just... transportation. Just like with Skywing. Great. Archwing combat is now completely broken.

It's extremely jarring for regular Archwing content to work one way, and Railjack Archwing to work another.

Edited December 15, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[Shalath]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

One complaint I do have about Railjack content so far is I'm unable to kill anything while in Archwing. My typical loadout is Amesha, Fluctus, and whatever melee weapon I feel like using. Lately Agkuza. This loadout actually works well in basic Archwing missions. Fluctus tears all enemies to shred, Amesha keeps me from dying, and melee spam works regardless of which one I use.

Not the case in Railjack. Fluctus projectiles never hit fighters. Mostly it's because they're faster than my Amesha, but I can't seem to hit them even when they're charging right at me. But that's not the worst of it, because I can probably just use a different Archgun...

I can't melee them. In normal Archwing content, when I try to melee an enemy, my Archwing will suddenly speed-rush to the target and start wailing away. I usually use this to zip around the combat theater rapidly while slashing down anything nearby.
But in Railjack, I don't rush to the enemy. I just start flailing my melee weapon. Which basically means melee won't work and I have to rely on my Archgun... that apparently can't hit fighters.

The result is that so far in Railjack, my Archwing is delegated to just... transportation. Just like with Skywing. Great. Archwing combat is now completely broken.

It's extremely jarring for regular Archwing content to work one way, and Railjack Archwing to work another.

I had the same with Fluctus, worse than useless for actually hitting anything. I did manage to just about scrape past the easiest mission but I had to use melee and time my attacks when the fighters were super close. I do much better with my Imperator Vandal.

This really needs looking at as the fighters are not only faster than your Archwing but it seems like they are faster than a lot of projectiles as well. I only have a couple of Archwing weapons so I can't test with all of them.

[Steel_Rook]

In general, fighters are just too damn fast. Period. Even in the Railjack, actually hitting anything is a crapshoot. Unless they're flying straight at you, they're excessively hard to hit to the point of not being fun to shoot at. Lead indicators are almost always WAY ahead of the fighters and they never hold a steady course. Either fighters need to move slower or our shots need to move faster, because this is getting silly.

[Test-995]

Fluctus, grattler, corvas, larkspur is EXTREMELY underwhelming in railjack due to extended scale, DE really need to fix it.

First three can't even catch up with fighters after all.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Test-995

[Midas]

49 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

In general, fighters are just too damn fast. Period. Even in the Railjack, actually hitting anything is a crapshoot. Unless they're flying straight at you, they're excessively hard to hit to the point of not being fun to shoot at. Lead indicators are almost always WAY ahead of the fighters and they never hold a steady course. Either fighters need to move slower or our shots need to move faster, because this is getting silly.

Takes practice, I can wipe 30 fighters in 3 minutes.

Try aiming slightly ahead of where they are flying.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Midas

[Test-995]

14 minutes ago, Midas said:

Takes practice, I can wipe 30 fighters in 3 minutes.

Try aiming slightly ahead of where they are flying.

If you can do that without cyngas, decurion, phaedra and imperator, i'll say that you are out of ordinary.

[Aldain]

I'm pretty sure they just nerfed Archwings/Archguns into the ground (minus the Amesha) and left the enemy damage so vastly over-tuned that nothing aside from said Amesha can survive, despite not having any issues surviving in what few Archwing missions there were before this.

[Hobie-wan]

Everyone keeps saying that arch melee isn't doing the little dash and lock, but it is for me on the smaller fighters in early levels at least. Granted I'm sitting there spamming the melee key with a face full of engine blast.

[Unimira]

Amesha with Imperator Vandal can do all current Railjack missions (possible solo but takes longer). Not sure if other weapons are viable but Ameshas immortality and slow are essential.

[grindbert]

dude, you're playing amesha. press 3 and you can hit anything you want with whatever you want.

[Sebastianx]

22 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

In general, fighters are just too damn fast. Period. Even in the Railjack, actually hitting anything is a crapshoot. Unless they're flying straight at you, they're excessively hard to hit to the point of not being fun to shoot at. Lead indicators are almost always WAY ahead of the fighters and they never hold a steady course. Either fighters need to move slower or our shots need to move faster, because this is getting silly.

That's where Pilot rank 5 comes into play, you can outrun fighters 😉 

[DrakeWurrum]

15 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Everyone keeps saying that arch melee isn't doing the little dash and lock, but it is for me on the smaller fighters in early levels at least. Granted I'm sitting there spamming the melee key with a face full of engine blast.

Then it sounds like the range needs to be adjusted. Dramatically. They seem to be getting mixed up on ranges between space and ground missions.

3 hours ago, grindbert said:

dude, you're playing amesha. press 3 and you can hit anything you want with whatever you want.

Spending all my energy on the 1st ability. Can't.

15 hours ago, Unimira said:

Amesha with Imperator Vandal can do all current Railjack missions

In my experience, it's more effective to use the Railjack itself, enough that using Archwing to fight is just... pointless.

Edited December 16, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[grindbert]

if you don't have energy, press 4.

if i facepalm any harder, i'll behead myself.

[DrakeWurrum]

Just now, grindbert said:

if you don't have energy, press 4.

if i facepalm any harder, i'll behead myself.

If I don't have Energy, how do I spend 100 Energy?

[grindbert]

use an energy pad. for #*!%s sake this is not rocket science.

[Hedrax]

49 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

In my experience, it's more effective to use the Railjack itself, enough that using Archwing to fight is just... pointless.

The trick is to use status builds with as much puncture and slash as you can, because those translate to particle and plasma which have status effects that increase damage dealt and reduce armor respectively.

[Steel_Rook]

17 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Everyone keeps saying that arch melee isn't doing the little dash and lock, but it is for me on the smaller fighters in early levels at least. Granted I'm sitting there spamming the melee key with a face full of engine blast.

It also seems to depend of your Archmelee of choice. People have reported that some weapons track fine while others don't. I'm using the Knux at the moment, and I've yet to successfully get that piece of S#&$ to track onto anything, even when I'm right on top of an anything.

 

2 hours ago, Sebastianx said:

That's where Pilot rank 5 comes into play, you can outrun fighters 😉 

So I noticed, but I still don't know what the Rank 5 even DOES. How does it work? The description doesn't apply to me because it involves holding and releasing the Sprint/Boost key while I use Toggle Sprint. Near as I can tell, it's basically a held bullet jump. I initiate a Slide, Boost during the Slide to move REALLY fast, then disable the Boost which shoots me forward (always forward, regardless of which direction I'm pressing) with velocity relative to how long I Slide-Boosted? Am I reading this correctly? Because yes, with that Intrinsic the Railjack does become pretty damn fast, as long as it has boost meter.

 

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

If I don't have Energy, how do I spend 100 Energy?

Plan ahead. I realise this sounds like elitist trash-talking, but I'm serious. It's the same situation as with Trinity. As long as you have energy for Energy Vampire, you can never run out. The moment you DON'T have enough to cast that, though, you're boned unless you use external sources. I played Trinity on the Grendel missions where I quite literally had no external energy sources, yet I was feeding a Frost who was the only thing that stood between the objective and massive gunfire.

When it comes to the Amesha, the FIRST thing you want to do is cast Vengeful Rush. That makes you invincible until your energy fills up, and it fills up REALLY fast. Use that, take a few hits, THEN start using your abilities. Additionally, build for energy. I forger what they're called for Archwings, but basically use the Energy and Effinciency mods on it. You can get up to 500+ energy on the Amesha and push the Rush cost down pretty low.

 

1 hour ago, Hedrax said:

The trick is to use status builds with as much puncture and slash as you can, because those translate to particle and plasma which have status effects that increase damage dealt and reduce armor respectively.

The who of the what now? "Translate into?" Is there something specific to Railjack missions where damage types translate into each other? If so, then we definitely need Railjack-specific builds for our Archguns and our Arch Melee weapons.

[HyokaChan]

2 hours ago, grindbert said:

use an energy pad. for #*!%s sake this is not rocket science.

Yes it is, we're in space!

 

  

30 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

The who of the what now? "Translate into?" Is there something specific to Railjack missions where damage types translate into each other? If so, then we definitely need Railjack-specific builds for our Archguns and our Arch Melee weapons.

Elements in Railjack combat were re-named:
Impact: ballistics
Puncture: plasma
Slash: particle

Heat: Incendiary 
Electric: Ionic
Cold: Frost
Toxin: Chem

composite elements kind of "don't exist" except for blast.

Edited December 16, 2019 by HyokaChan

[Hobie-wan]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

It also seems to depend of your Archmelee of choice. People have reported that some weapons track fine while others don't. I'm using the Knux at the moment, and I've yet to successfully get that piece of S#&$ to track onto anything, even when I'm right on top of an anything.

 

It seems so. I spoke up in chat last night and it seems that Veritux (I'm using Prisma Vertiux) does lock on while most if not all of the others aren't. Hopefully that's fixed sooner than later.

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, HyokaChan said:

Elements in Railjack combat were re-named:
Impact: ballistics
Puncture: plasma
Slash: particle

Heat: Incendiary 
Electric: Ionic
Cold: Frost
Toxin: Chem

composite elements kind of "don't exist" except for blast.

Huh... Well, if DE do indeed plan to back-fill this damage system into ground combat some day (and they should, I vastly prefer it), then it makes sense to use the same API. It remains backwards-compatible and easier to swap over. With that said, though - this needs to be explained somewhere. As it stands, players still build their Archgins against Archwing and Ground targets, so having some idea that they work differently in Railjack is a must. Question - does this apply to Archwing weapons indoors? Like if I pull out my Archwing Launcher inside the Railjack to fire on Boarders... They still use classic damage types, right?

[Skye_Archer]

On 2019-12-15 at 9:32 PM, Steel_Rook said:

In general, fighters are just too damn fast. Period. Even in the Railjack, actually hitting anything is a crapshoot. Unless they're flying straight at you, they're excessively hard to hit to the point of not being fun to shoot at. Lead indicators are almost always WAY ahead of the fighters and they never hold a steady course. Either fighters need to move slower or our shots need to move faster, because this is getting silly.

 

Archwing I'd agree 100% with you, but in railjack I've not found that problem at all... As others have said it's in part down to practice... For me it's probably down to the bazillion hours I've placed into games like wing commander, X-3, X-wing and other space sims...

However that said, I'm usually using my own railjack 90% of the time, so I don't deal with issues like lag.. So my question is are you seeing the same problem trageting things on your own railjack  as opposed to when you are on someone elses?

[Mackanstein]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Huh... Well, if DE do indeed plan to back-fill this damage system into ground combat some day (and they should, I vastly prefer it), then it makes sense to use the same API. It remains backwards-compatible and easier to swap over. With that said, though - this needs to be explained somewhere. As it stands, players still build their Archgins against Archwing and Ground targets, so having some idea that they work differently in Railjack is a must. Question - does this apply to Archwing weapons indoors? Like if I pull out my Archwing Launcher inside the Railjack to fire on Boarders... They still use classic damage types, right?

The Archgun works just like before while using archgun deployer indoors. The translation of damage only happens in space, and that's because the new translated damage types have status effects that only make sense on space ship targets. Some other useful information: combined elements (radiation, corrosive etc.) keep their normal typing in space (and radiation is really good in RJ against grineer ships) but procs NO status effects. I personally run high status particle+plasma (so puncture and slash), then mod for radiation and cold. Particle and plasma rips their defenses, cold becomes frost and slows them down, radiation does the big damage.

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, Skye_Archer said:

Archwing I'd agree 100% with you, but in railjack I've not found that problem at all... As others have said it's in part down to practice... For me it's probably down to the bazillion hours I've placed into games like wing commander, X-3, X-wing and other space sims... However that said, I'm usually using my own railjack 90% of the time, so I don't deal with issues like lag.. So my question is are you seeing the same problem trageting things on your own railjack  as opposed to when you are on someone elses?

This is using my own Railjack and hosting my own games. Shooting fighters swarming the ship flying sideways is just about impossible for me. Because these craft constantly change their course, they've always turned away by the time my shots reach them, even if I'm firing on the lead indicator. The only reliable way I have of shooting enemy craft is if they're flying at or away from me. This CAN be achieved by the Railjack pilot, but for side gunners who have no control over the ship, it's a crapshoot. It's why I stuck the instant-hit but really weak electrical guns on the sides of my own Railjack. Yes they deal pitiful damage, but at least they DEAL damage. With the Apoc guns, most of my side gunners never actually landed much of any fire. I might go a step in-between with the Toxic cannon since that one seems to have much faster-flying projectiles and a more rapid rate of fire, but we'll see.

I realise it's not impossible to hit fighters. I'm just saying that it's excessively difficult to hit fighters flying corkscrews orthogonal to my line of fire, and that's all that ever seems to happen once they swarm the Railjack. Even with the Piloting Rank 5 slide boost thing, Fighters are still faster than the Railjack so they just keep buzzing around like flies. For the front gun, it might make sense to have slower-moving projectiles but I find the side guns NEED to have either instant-hit or fast moving projectiles otherwise it's just not worth bothering to try and shoot at fighters.

 

1 hour ago, Mackanstein said:

The Archgun works just like before while using archgun deployer indoors. The translation of damage only happens in space, and that's because the new translated damage types have status effects that only make sense on space ship targets. Some other useful information: combined elements (radiation, corrosive etc.) keep their normal typing in space (and radiation is really good in RJ against grineer ships) but procs NO status effects. I personally run high status particle+plasma (so puncture and slash), then mod for radiation and cold. Particle and plasma rips their defenses, cold becomes frost and slows them down, radiation does the big damage.

Do Railjack spacecraft enemies even HAVE traditional health types? Ferrite Armour, Machinery Health, that sort of thing? In fact, how could I tell? Do I have to literally jump out in my Archwing and try to scan them with the Synthesis Scanner?

[Mackanstein]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

Do Railjack spacecraft enemies even HAVE traditional health types? Ferrite Armour, Machinery Health, that sort of thing? In fact, how could I tell? Do I have to literally jump out in my Archwing and try to scan them with the Synthesis Scanner?

Codex indicates Kosma ships have Alloy armor.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Mackanstein
Updated information

[Skye_Archer]

1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

This is using my own Railjack and hosting my own games. Shooting fighters swarming the ship flying sideways is just about impossible for me. Because these craft constantly change their course, they've always turned away by the time my shots reach them, even if I'm firing on the lead indicator. The only reliable way I have of shooting enemy craft is if they're flying at or away from me. This CAN be achieved by the Railjack pilot, but for side gunners who have no control over the ship, it's a crapshoot. It's why I stuck the instant-hit but really weak electrical guns on the sides of my own Railjack. Yes they deal pitiful damage, but at least they DEAL damage. With the Apoc guns, most of my side gunners never actually landed much of any fire. I might go a step in-between with the Toxic cannon since that one seems to have much faster-flying projectiles and a more rapid rate of fire, but we'll see.

I realise it's not impossible to hit fighters. I'm just saying that it's excessively difficult to hit fighters flying corkscrews orthogonal to my line of fire, and that's all that ever seems to happen once they swarm the Railjack. Even with the Piloting Rank 5 slide boost thing, Fighters are still faster than the Railjack so they just keep buzzing around like flies. For the front gun, it might make sense to have slower-moving projectiles but I find the side guns NEED to have either instant-hit or fast moving projectiles otherwise it's just not worth bothering to try and shoot at fighters.

 

If side gunners are having a problem hitting fighters, then don't put APOC weapons on the side gunnary slot, the thing is for them again it is also a matter of being accustomed the ship moving around whilst they are trying to shoot stuff... Precision weapons like the APOC class of weapons isn't ideal unless they're hitting somehting very big... however there is one railjack weapon which is similar to the archwing Fluctus which fires like a wave like AOE, and that will hit a large area.. I forgot which weapon type it is but it has a massive heat gain, but it hits hard (very large damage values compared to similar mk weapons) and has a fairly large aoe hit radius... You may want to put these weapons on your side gunner slots on your railjack.

The thing is as a pilot if you got gunners on your ship, you can't fly as if you were flying a single seat jet fighter, you can't make sudden movements, everything needs to be smooth and gradual to allow your gunners to become accustomed to the pilot's movement of the railjack... This can be a lot harder when the pilot can not take into account the gunner's lag to the host or indeed their own lag...