Devstream :135 Overview [Late]

[Loza03]

Just now, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Shes a Hemo-mancer. Like Vladimir from League of Legends

You cannot tell me that guy wasn't designed with Vampires in mind...

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

 That’s true, except Garuda doesn’t consume blood. Does she technically absorb blood/life energy with her 2? Yes, but then technically so does every frame getting the benefit from her 2. And she doesn’t directly drink the blood.

That's HER ability that's letting them do that, and she doesn't have a mouth, so she can't exactly literally drink it. She's taking blood, consuming life energy from it, and become healthier and stronger. Again, 'Vampire' is such a nebulous concept that any kind of 'Consuming life energy' will probably be considered Vampiric if it involves blood.

[SordidDreams]

17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If it's for a financial reason, you can bet it's compromising on design. That's just reality.

Do you realize that commercial games as a whole exist for financial reasons?

19 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

don't forget that the Witcher 3 also had paid DLC's, which also are usually monetisation driven

I also haven't forgotten that those DLCs were universally acclaimed as excellent value and a great example to other developers of how to do DLC well.

18 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Witcher is only one game, made by one of the biggest companies around

Lol what?

20 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

the idea that Warframe's monetisation scheme is somehow unique in how it compromises the game design is just wrong

True, which is why I'm not saying that.

21 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Warframe has to make compromises for it's monetisation scheme.

Thank you for agreeing with the point that I actually am making.

[Loza03]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

Thank you for agreeing with the point that I actually am making.

In so far as I can tell, it was more that Warframe's was exceptionally so, and expressing desire for it to change. My point being that isn't a realisable thing, and that the other schemes you wish it followed would have other problems anyway.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

16 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

What you apologizing for? Official overview isn't even up yet but yours is. Cheers 👊

I was bumbed , as I always try to get these posted right after devstream is done , but gratzie makes me feel a little better

though..wait... your saying even being a day late... I am still posting before the official one? ( that is news to me actually) 

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by (XB1)EternalDrk Mako

[Aldain]

Well now that I have an Ash Prime cooking in my foundry I honestly cannot wait for that new Deluxe skin.

[SordidDreams]

46 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

In so far as I can tell, it was more that Warframe's was exceptionally so, and expressing desire for it to change. My point being that isn't a realisable thing, and that the other schemes you wish it followed would have other problems anyway.

So you have misunderstood and continue to misunderstand even when told so. I can only call that willful at this point. As for a desire to change, yes, of course. Do you not desire your games to be designed to be fun rather than to be tedious? I thought that was at least one thing we had in common, but maybe I was wrong. As for your point, it is fallacious and invalid, as I have explained.

Edited December 21, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Loza03]

Just now, SordidDreams said:

So you have misunderstood and continue to misunderstand even when told so. I can only call that willful at this point.

Or you miscommunicated.

Believe me, that is very possible.

Quote

Another good option is f2p monetized through cosmetics only. Path of Exile is almost a pure example of that. I wish WF went that way.

 

[PsiWarp]

Let's see if Techette frame will use her Parazon with her abilities or not. Make her a speed hacker with ballsy powers!

Although, Vauban and Octavia tend to have fire-and-forget abilities that happen to involve stationary or mobile balls. Hopefully the new frame has more interactive ones.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

That's HER ability that's letting them do that, and she doesn't have a mouth, so she can't exactly literally drink it. She's taking blood, consuming life energy from it, and become healthier and stronger. Again, 'Vampire' is such a nebulous concept that any kind of 'Consuming life energy' will probably be considered Vampiric if it involves blood.

And that’s the problem. You’re just assuming that blood powers = vampire. And that’s not the case with Garuda. They can be mutually exclusive.

[Mephane]

7 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

Amesha to get nerfed , and other archwings to get buffed (another itzel instance?) 

Ah yes, because you failed to properly balance the enemies in Railjack content not to instakill everything else, let's nerf Amesha. Sure why not.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

Should just bring other frames up to amesha's level in railjack so we, y'know, have a choice about what archwing we should be using.  I really want an excuse to use elytron, itzal, or odonata but instead I'm required to use amesha because slowing enemies is fantastic so the railjack crew can shoot them without being expert marksman, you have an ability to not make you squishy, and yet another ability to draw fire away from the railjack.  Look at any other archwing and see what they can do in railjack oh right basically nothing.  

[SordidDreams]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

yet another ability to draw fire away from the railjack

Well, if it wasn't bugged and literally doing nothing (other than healing you when it accidentally gets hit).

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Well, if it wasn't bugged and literally doing nothing (other than healing you when it accidentally gets hit).

OK so let's say it's bugged and the ability is largely useless, amesha is still light years ahead of the other archwings in terms of helping out in railjack missions by slowing and not dying to a random missile from a crewship.  DE needs to make the other archwings more viable, not make amesha worse.  

[AzureTerra]

7 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

I forgot how disappointing that Garuda Deluxe was.

"deluxe skins" in a nutshell are disappointing. There are a rare few that are not but like baro its better to expect nothing and be surprised when something is actually good.

[SordidDreams]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)COA Altair said:

OK so let's say it's bugged and the ability is largely useless, amesha is still light years ahead of the other archwings in terms of helping out in railjack missions by slowing and not dying to a random missile from a crewship.  DE needs to make the other archwings more viable, not make amesha worse.  

I agree completely. Though to be fair, Amesha is pretty much god mode, and the only reason "pretty much" is there is because her 4 is also bugged and doesn't actually make you permanently invincible like it's supposed to (even though your health bar greys out, you still take damage). The nerf she needs is for her 4 to only give, say, 90% damage reduction rather than outright invincibility.

As for the others, Itzal needs to be able to move while stealthed and not be bugged (currently enemies target you even when invisible). Odonata also needs to not be bugged (shield doesn't stop projectiles). Elytron.... needs a complete rework from the ground up, it's just trash.

But yeah, simply fixing bugs would help a lot. Also, only crew ships should have homing projectiles, not fighters. The fact that every single enemy projectile is an aggressively homing missile is just insane, and I have no idea who at DE thought it was acceptable or why.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And that’s the problem. You’re just assuming that blood powers = vampire. And that’s not the case with Garuda. They can be mutually exclusive.

Drinking the life essence out of blood is pretty damn Vampire. I'm fairly sure consuming life energy through the medium of blood to rejuvenate oneself is pretty much the main thing a Vampire does. Especially when the process involves IMPALING PEOPLE.

Edit: Her alt helmet - Bathory - is named after Elizabeth Bathory - someone who practiced real-life Vampirism, specifically bathing in the blood of Virgins in an attempt to regain her youth.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Loza03
How much more Vampire do you WANT?

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Drinking the life essence out of blood is pretty damn Vampire. I'm fairly sure consuming life energy through the medium of blood to rejuvenate oneself is pretty much the main thing a Vampire does. Especially when the process involves IMPALING PEOPLE.

Necromancy (which also covers blood magic) had been around for centuries before mentions of Vampires or Dhamphirs  began appearing in different forms of media. Necromancy made one of it's earliest recorded mentions in some passages of the Bible and Homer's Odyssey. If anything, the common perception or understanding of a Vampire's powers have been heavily influenced by Necromancy. And Necromancers are primarily known for...? Raising the dead, communicating with the underworld, using souls or the blood of others in order to lengthen their lifespan. The idea of drinking blood, raising hell, possessing others, or changing forms have been around much, much longer than Vampires. Those traits aren't specific to the Vampiric lore or species.

The impaling people part was mostly inspired by Vlad the Impaler(?), and if I recall correctly, his fascination with impalement began after seeing his family impaled when he was a young boy (I could be wrong though, I haven't done much Vampire or super-natural related reading lately).

5 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Edit: Her alt helmet - Bathory - is named after Elizabeth Bathory - someone who practiced real-life Vampirism, specifically bathing in the blood of Virgins in an attempt to regain her youth.

Elizabeth Bathory died in the 16th century....Vampirism first appeared in poetry and legends in the 17th to 18th century. I don't think she practised Vampirism (it may have actually been Witchcraft or Necromancy), I think demented behaviour eventually got spun into Vampirism over time.

Having said that, I don't believe Garuda is a Vampire frame. I think it's more probable her theme was inspired by Bloodmagic and Necromancy, since not a single part of her kit is related to or even mentions references to Balkan or Vampiric lore.

Her name however, is one thing I just never understood.

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Necromancy (which also covers blood magic) had been around for centuries before mentions of Vampires or Dhamphirs  began appearing in different forms of media. Necromancy made one of it's earliest recorded mentions in some passages of the Bible and Homer's Odyssey. If anything, the common perception or understanding of a Vampire's powers have been heavily influenced by Necromancy. And Necromancers are primarily known for...? Raising the dead, communicating with the underworld, using souls or the blood of others in order to lengthen their lifespan. The idea of drinking blood, raising hell, possessing others, or changing forms have been around much, much longer than Vampires. Those traits aren't specific to the Vampiric lore or species.

The impaling people part was mostly inspired by Vlad the Impaler(?), and if I recall correctly, his fascination with impalement began after seeing his family impaled when he was a young boy (I could be wrong though, I haven't done much Vampire or super-natural related reading lately).

Since we already have TWO Necromancer frames (traditional in Nekros, but Inaros has some alongside his mummy theme). And discussing the literary history doesn't really change the fact the modern interpretation of Vampires does generally link the act of drinking blood, or otherwise consuming it, to Vampirism. That might have been different thousands of years ago, and that's definitely a worthwhile conversation, but fact of the matter is we are alive in the 21st century,  so unless you're designing some deep Vampire lore, they probably designed a Vampire frame around what is understood about modern Vampires.

Also, Vlad the Impaler is often cited as the person, or one of the people who inspired Dracula, so Impaling people is usually pretty closely linked to Vampire mythology.

4 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Elizabeth Bathory died in the 16th century....Vampirism first appeared in poetry and legends in the 17th to 18th century. I don't think she practised Vampirism (it may have actually been Witchcraft or Necromancy), I think demented behaviour eventually got spun into Vampirism over time.

Having said that, I don't believe Garuda is a Vampire frame. I think it's more probable her theme was inspired by Bloodmagic and Necromancy, since not a single part of her kit is related to or even mentions references to Balkan or Vampiric lore.

Her name however, is one thing I just never understood.

Elizabeth Bathory is ALSO someone cited as a person who inspired Dracula, although that's mostly discredited. She is often given the nickname 'Countess Dracula'.

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Since we already have TWO Necromancer frames (traditional in Nekros, but Inaros has some alongside his mummy theme). And discussing the literary history doesn't really change the fact the modern interpretation of Vampires does generally link the act of drinking blood, or otherwise consuming it, to Vampirism. That might have been different thousands of years ago, and that's definitely a worthwhile conversation, but fact of the matter is we are alive in the 21st century,  so unless you're designing some deep Vampire lore, they probably designed a Vampire frame around what is understood about modern Vampires.

Also, Vlad the Impaler is often cited as the person, or one of the people who inspired Dracula, so Impaling people is usually pretty closely linked to Vampire mythology.

Inaros is not a Necromancer; he's a mummy/desert themed frame, and that's it. Nothing in his lore, kit, or appearance implies or indicates that he's a Necromancer. As far as I know, DE Rebecca is the only who has ever called Garuda "a Vampire" (I could be mistaken though), otherwise, it's very clear her theme is blood, gore and violence. Even her loose connection to Vampirism (Blood Altar) is questionable, given the fact that draining an enemy's health to regenerate your own is a common healing ability in Warframe (heck, Trinity has a skill called Energy Vampire but no one is calling her a Vampire frame). It's related to blood only to keep things consistent with her theme (Blood, gore and violence). The Lotus' quote and the Codex entry for Garuda simply refer to her as the Gore Queen and "Death's crimson maiden" and if she were a Vampire or Vampire related there would've been a reference or something similar mentioned in there (for example, Ivara's has a reference to Robin Hood: Men in tights, and Chroma's has a line from a song about a dragon-type character).

8 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Elizabeth Bathory is ALSO someone cited as a person who inspired Dracula, although that's mostly discredited. She is often given the nickname 'Countess Dracula'.

As I said, demented behaviour got spun into Vampirism over time, and it's more likely she was practising Necromancy, Sorcery, Witchcraft, etc.

Edited December 22, 2019 by (PS4)The1stAzrael
typo

[Loza03]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Inaros is not a Necromancer; he's a mummy/desert themed frame, and that's it. Nothing in his lore, kit, or appearance implies or indicates that he's a Necromancer. As far as I know, DE Rebecca is the only who has ever called Garuda "a Vampire" (I could be mistaken though), otherwise, it's very clear her theme is blood, gore and violence. Even her loose connection to Vampirism (Blood Altar) is questionable, given the fact that draining an enemy's health to regenerate your own is a common healing ability in Warframe (heck, Trinity has a skill called Energy Vampire but no one is calling her a Vampire frame). It's related to blood only to keep things consistent with her theme (Blood, gore and violence). The Lotus' quote and the Codex entry for Garuda simply refer to her as the Gore Queen and "Death's crimson maiden" and if she were a Vampire or Vampire related there would've been a reference or something similar mentioned in there (for example, Ivara's has a reference to Robin Hood: Men in tights, and Chroma's has a line from a song about a dragon-type character).

Does Revenant have a reference to Vampires? He's supposed to be a Vampire frame too. (supposed to be)

Does Grendel have a reference to Oni? He's designed with horns and stomach mouths like Oni are, as well as having a Kanabo as his signature weapon.

Does Inaros (who, on a side note, revives the dead, or at least shades of them, in his sand monsters, as well as self-reviving, hence necromancer/mummy) have references to Egypt in his description?

Frankly, if Rebb has called her a Vampire frame, then this situation is cut-and-dry. She is a Vampire.

59 minutes ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

As I said, demented behaviour got spun into Vampirism over time, and it's more likely she was practising Necromancy, Sorcery, Witchcraft, etc.

That's irrelevant.

Bathroy is literally referred to as Countess Dracula. If you're making two direct references to some of the most famous, seminal vampires in literature (or their inspiration) with your character who drinks health from blood, then that character is probably supposed to be a Vampire. Their motivations for doing what they did or other literary backdrops to taht is kind of besides the point - they are known for their vampire connotations, and that's what defines them. That's like me arguing Wukong isn't based on Sun Wukong because the character of Sun Wukong was a metaphor for the mind and Wukong the frame doesn't have psychic powers.

[Megalomaniakaal]

On 2019-12-21 at 9:08 PM, Toppien said:

im just saying that many people dont like that ivara deluxe

Well, I certainly like it more than the current ones in-game.

[Yamazuki]

19 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I agree completely. Though to be fair, Amesha is pretty much god mode, and the only reason "pretty much" is there is because her 4 is also bugged and doesn't actually make you permanently invincible like it's supposed to (even though your health bar greys out, you still take damage). The nerf she needs is for her 4 to only give, say, 90% damage reduction rather than outright invincibility.

As for the others, Itzal needs to be able to move while stealthed and not be bugged (currently enemies target you even when invisible). Odonata also needs to not be bugged (shield doesn't stop projectiles). Elytron.... needs a complete rework from the ground up, it's just trash.

But yeah, simply fixing bugs would help a lot. Also, only crew ships should have homing projectiles, not fighters. The fact that every single enemy projectile is an aggressively homing missile is just insane, and I have no idea who at DE thought it was acceptable or why.

Amesha's immunity turns off when energy fills up, and a single attack or two easily fills up energy (especially at veil). It may not seem like it's turning off when it fills because if the slow is active the energy fills up but then is drained quickly, but during that brief period of having max energy you can take damage and die quickly. The drones from the first ability do a better job of keeping Amesha alive as long as you aren't staggered as the last one is consumed.

I suppose if they want to nerf Amesha, they could get rid of the damage immunity from 4 forcing more people into using drones, which also prevents gaining energy from 4, and change it so 2 functions like 1 in regards to blocking the energy conversion from 4. In the end though, obliterating Amesha doesn't really make the other options any better. It would be nice if they could do more than "oh look x is used more than the rest" and nerf it, rather than taking a look at context. Amesha is strong, but even with toned down durability and making energy harder to maintain, it is still the better option because the other AW's aren't offering much.

It's like PoE/Orb and Itzal all over again, only thing that mattered there was movement, causing Itzal to be popular. For Railjack, all that matters is getting to Crewships, and any CC that makes shooting smaller ships easier and lowers their damage output. The other AW's need better tools to not get blown up by the Crewship missiles that have massive hitboxes, and better options for CCing the smaller ships. If they don't have good CC, they need to have damage comparable to using Archguns, or have damage buffs for weapons. Sustain doesn't really matter as much when you can just heal in the RJ or while in Crewships before leaving them.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Yamazuki

[SordidDreams]

22 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Amesha's immunity turns off when energy fills up, and a single attack or two easily fills up energy (especially at veil). It may not seem like it's turning off when it fills because if the slow is active the energy fills up but then is drained quickly, but during that brief period of having max energy you can take damage and die quickly.

That's exactly the bug I'm talking about. That's not how it's supposed to work and not how it works in regular archwing.

23 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

obliterating Amesha doesn't really make the other options any better

That's what really worries me and that's why I'm grinding out RJ pretty hard with her before doing so becomes impossible. I really have no interest in the big ship, everything about it is very un-Warframe-like. You're either stuck flying this slow, lumbering beast of a ship, or sitting in a gun turret, or crafting supplies and extinguishing fires. None of those things are what i come to WF for. Of all the missteps DE have made, trying to make a Guns of Icarus rip-off was probably the worst IMO. Being able to leave the ship behind and do the content in AW is its only saving grace.

 

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

On 2019-12-22 at 3:41 AM, Reshun said:

Here we go again! That 70%! Lol

that just means 70% of the player bass know what there doing.. lol