"Friendship" doors

[Kefirno]

They should not exist.

[SDGDen]

10/10, top quality post. 

 

but, they've been here since before i started playing, and they havent been changed at all as far as i'm aware. so they're here to stay!

 

[Kefirno]

39 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

10/10, top quality post.

Well, everyone knows that coop doors are bad and why they are bad, it's not like there's something unintentional or subtle.

[Cloud]

3 hours ago, Kefirno said:

They should not exist.

 

2 hours ago, Kefirno said:

Well, everyone knows that coop doors are bad and why they are bad, it's not like there's something unintentional or subtle.

oh well, nobody hate friendship doors as me, cause I'm almost in every mission waiting at those doors hoping someone will eventually come, at the point of soloing just to get rid off them.

BUT they are necessary. Without them someone could just speed the mission, making it for the rest of the team a walking simulator. That is not good, and friendship doors assure that in a way or the other you keep a certain pace with your teammates, cause at the end of the day, you're playing a coop game.

If you wanna rush things, you're free to solo.

[Fevix]

These doors exist to prevent one player from rushing ahead of the rest of the group and leaving them with nothing to do but follow the path of destruction. The friendship door slows the leader of the pack down to at least second place.  

Some of them are placed strategically (EG., Rescue missions) to hint at the players that it's time to stop rushing and start being tactical. 

 

[peterc3]

If you're upset at the friendship doors, you shouldn't have played Public.

[Avienas]

52 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

If you're upset at the friendship doors, you shouldn't have played Public.

Its a outdated mechanic that honestly needs to go. It serves no purpose except as a annoyance to prevent more skilled players from being able to get done with the mission sooner. Warframe has come a long way from its much slower pace and it needs to start streamlining many things including both in-mission functionalities and things like crafting/resource management inside things like the orbiter. Heck do everyone even remember you have 3 ways to deal with sabotage, yet everyone seems to go with the `explode the engine` method? D.E. might as well remove the magnetic & freeze parts, just as they need to learn to INSTALL ventilation shafts near every corpus elevator so we have a much more `ninja` method of handling the missions.

Heck, i kind of WANT them to update resource extractors into Sector resource extractors AIMED towards railjack content so we have a nice passive way to farm Pustrels, Copernics & Cubic Diodes considering the absurd cost which gets between 2.4k~3.6k resources with atleast 2 instances of those goods on MKI weapons alone, regardless if its the fixed stat dojo variant or the wildly b.s. stat rng-sus of the salvage parts. Since if you played for a good while on warframe, you are likely sitting between 1-2 million rubedo and your other resource pools being in similar condition, Which even for newer players, resource extractors need to have 10x the extraction value to even amount to a worthwhile wait of many hours just to collect them.

Oh did i forget to mention that i cant seem to figure out what my salvage inventorysize limit is or find it in the inventory screen so i have to enjoy burning up plat from time to time to keep increasing the slot size since i have not much of an idea on what it currently is. PLUS, vanilla parts seem to take up space too, so that`s pretty enjoyable considering you cant scrap them or anything like that.

Point n case, If D.E. does not take the time to update the old parts of the game and continue to stack more content on top of what is already broken content or make it even worst (refer to archwing changes, archwing gun functionality changes and ignorance to update how relic fissures work (which still has a tendency to not get enough reactants in the first round of endless missions or even the second due to how mob corruption delays on top of how reactant farming can throttle the pacing of other missions by quite a few minutes), On top of neglecting much needed QoLs which i rather not have to keep repeating, But basically boost loot gain by the map`s level and a scale up on loot gain, where both rare drop odds and quantity of loot needs to both go up as you go further into endless missions.

....And yes you may say this is a DRAMATIC response over a `friendship door`, but market chat could be called a `friendship chat`, yet its also a toxic functionality that we are forced to frequent unless we throw real money at our problems to avoid having to frequent the `friendship chat` instead. If D.E. can`t even get rid of a redundant door, then how can we expect them to get the game into a tolerable shape when they want to introduce more grindie systems and now wants to lean to more B.S. rng-sus systems with exaggerated GRINDS (railjack salvage and kuva weapons) to get something that could easily be replaced with another exaggerated grind.

[sitfesz]

In case you forgot you hate your team, the friendship door is always there to remind you.

[Kefirno]

7 hours ago, Cloud said:

BUT they are necessary. Without them someone could just speed the mission, making it for the rest of the team a walking simulator. That is not good, and friendship doors assure that in a way or the other you keep a certain pace with your teammates, cause at the end of the day, you're playing a coop game.

No game should ever punish players for being good at it. Especially considering how going fast is one of the very few things in Warframe that still requires some input and effort from the player (not landing on ledges above doors was the real endgame all along).

3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

If you're upset at the friendship doors, you shouldn't have played Public.

Nice stock response, mr. smarty pants. Would you mind showing me how to open 4 relics in one solo capture mission?

Also, friendship doors are detrimental even for organized group. For example when players are splitting objectives between each other, like looking for syndicate medallions or letting one player to do his riven challenge away from the teammates that do the main objective. Or just one player going afk for a minute to take a piss.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Kefirno

[Test-995]

I'd say opposite, elevators should be like friendship door, except one in spy node.

[sam686]

Some people call it other things. I called it double lock door for some time, others call this a troll door.

This have come up before. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1070920-troll-doors-should-be-removed/

I believe the worst is double lock "friendship" door to a dead end room, not in the path to objective or extraction. No acolytes, no resource cache, and "extracting in 0:59" waiting for locked door to open.

As for elevators, just split 1 huge elevator into 3 or 4 small elevators.

[Steel_Rook]

7 hours ago, Avienas said:

Its a outdated mechanic that honestly needs to go. It serves no purpose except as a annoyance to prevent more skilled players from being able to get done with the mission sooner. 

Yeah, I'm going to be snarky here, but... The whole point of friendship doors IS to prevent said "more skilled" A******s from soloing the mission and denying everyone else the chance to actually play the damn game. Call me petty, but few things give me more pleasure then running around opening lockers while some yahoo runs off ahead, stands by a friendship door, yells in chat and then rage-quits. Warframe is not a speedrunning game. If you want to speed-run, play solo. Not all of us came here to play Sonic Adventure.

 

4 hours ago, Kefirno said:

No game should ever punish players for being good at it. Especially considering how going fast is one of the very few things in Warframe that still requires some input and effort from the player (not landing on ledges above doors was the real endgame all along).

Strongly disagree. Games should very much punish players for "being good," when that entails preventing other people from actually getting to play the game. The typical "#*!% you got mine" attitude of public games is bad enough, but Warframe has it even worse. This attitude that "I'm better than you, so I'll help you by playing the game for you, just sit there and shut up scrub" which Warframe breeds, however, is substantially more infuriating and something which often makes me wish for a host kick.

If a friendship door is blocking your path, it means you've run ahead of your team. If you're consistently running ahead of your team, you are not playing a team game. You're soloing and being annoyed that you have to do it in the presence of other people with will of their own, rather than bots. If you go into multiplayer with that attitude, you deserve to be punished for being too good to consider other players, far as I'm concerned.

[Sorrode]

7 hours ago, Avienas said:

Its a outdated mechanic that honestly needs to go. It serves no purpose except as a annoyance to prevent more skilled players from being able to get done with the mission sooner. Warframe has come a long way from its much slower pace and it needs to start streamlining many things including both in-mission functionalities and things like crafting/resource management inside things like the orbiter. Heck do everyone even remember you have 3 ways to deal with sabotage, yet everyone seems to go with the `explode the engine` method? D.E. might as well remove the magnetic & freeze parts, just as they need to learn to INSTALL ventilation shafts near every corpus elevator so we have a much more `ninja` method of handling the missions.

Heck, i kind of WANT them to update resource extractors into Sector resource extractors AIMED towards railjack content so we have a nice passive way to farm Pustrels, Copernics & Cubic Diodes considering the absurd cost which gets between 2.4k~3.6k resources with atleast 2 instances of those goods on MKI weapons alone, regardless if its the fixed stat dojo variant or the wildly b.s. stat rng-sus of the salvage parts. Since if you played for a good while on warframe, you are likely sitting between 1-2 million rubedo and your other resource pools being in similar condition, Which even for newer players, resource extractors need to have 10x the extraction value to even amount to a worthwhile wait of many hours just to collect them.

Oh did i forget to mention that i cant seem to figure out what my salvage inventorysize limit is or find it in the inventory screen so i have to enjoy burning up plat from time to time to keep increasing the slot size since i have not much of an idea on what it currently is. PLUS, vanilla parts seem to take up space too, so that`s pretty enjoyable considering you cant scrap them or anything like that.

Point n case, If D.E. does not take the time to update the old parts of the game and continue to stack more content on top of what is already broken content or make it even worst (refer to archwing changes, archwing gun functionality changes and ignorance to update how relic fissures work (which still has a tendency to not get enough reactants in the first round of endless missions or even the second due to how mob corruption delays on top of how reactant farming can throttle the pacing of other missions by quite a few minutes), On top of neglecting much needed QoLs which i rather not have to keep repeating, But basically boost loot gain by the map`s level and a scale up on loot gain, where both rare drop odds and quantity of loot needs to both go up as you go further into endless missions.

....And yes you may say this is a DRAMATIC response over a `friendship door`, but market chat could be called a `friendship chat`, yet its also a toxic functionality that we are forced to frequent unless we throw real money at our problems to avoid having to frequent the `friendship chat` instead. If D.E. can`t even get rid of a redundant door, then how can we expect them to get the game into a tolerable shape when they want to introduce more grindie systems and now wants to lean to more B.S. rng-sus systems with exaggerated GRINDS (railjack salvage and kuva weapons) to get something that could easily be replaced with another exaggerated grind.

pumping out a long article is surely not a way to convince anyone on anything that others can conclude in one or two lines

[sitfesz]

21 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

If you want to speed-run, play solo

Oh well, again the "play solo" argument.
Why aren't you playing solo to run around opening lockers?

Playing fast is efficient to get end reward while running around for lockers is only fun to you.
It is indeed a speedrunning game in many cases.

24 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Call me petty, but few things give me more pleasure then running around opening lockers while some yahoo runs off ahead, stands by a friendship door, yells in chat and then rage-quits.

I guess this is your point to play pub. To troll people who actually does the objective and wants to finish when it's done.
This door is straight up toxic to Warframe and this is your main reason to defend it.

27 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Games should very much punish players for "being good," when that entails preventing other people from actually getting to play the game

Friendship doors are the means of preventing people from playing the game. Without them, you would be free to explore and free to keep up or lead, while others would be free to progress.

[Avienas]

46 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Yeah, I'm going to be snarky here, but... The whole point of friendship doors IS to prevent said "more skilled" A******s from soloing the mission and denying everyone else the chance to actually play the damn game. Call me petty, but few things give me more pleasure then running around opening lockers while some yahoo runs off ahead, stands by a friendship door, yells in chat and then rage-quits. Warframe is not a speedrunning game. If you want to speed-run, play solo. Not all of us came here to play Sonic Adventure.

They already have the extraction requirement of half the people being on the point to `lock` them from speed clearing the thing anyway, but if you are wanting to farm loot then you could go solo yourself. Honestly i could request plenty of things on warframe such as the concept of loot lockers might as well get erased outside of the special ones in sabotage caches, since them acting as a container you cannot view on the item map is semi-annoying, same on the sense i wish they`d give unique icons for loot lockers vs. regular loot on the ground, also how eximus units need special icons so we have better insight when a bunch of energy leech/cold eximus are present so we are not stuck wondering why our energy suddenly went from 500 to 0 in a few seconds or we are only moving half as fast, since D.E. has yet to get rid of Eximus aura STACKING.

Again, its plenty of QoL tune ups, either let us get map UI awareness on those lockers (And maybe actually boost the value of said loot since who the heck tries to hunt for those SPECIAL super rare loot caches which have 30 min boosters and sometimes landing craft parts, now that we lost Law of Retribution) or just get rid of the concept of loot chests, clean out the mods associated with them and buff the loot from resource piles instead.

Seriously, Lockers are basically the `active` version of resource extractors, they serve only as a time wasting trap with the only other thing to give them any weight is using them to get rarer resources, namely argon crystals, but we usually got more effective farms such as darksector maps and assassinations for the others.

Aka, D.E. is just honestly being lazy to fix up its systems and rather put in more convoluted systems which is just going to piss off players even more with a more absurd time sink on top of the other time sinks we still have amongst it.

Quote

Strongly disagree. Games should very much punish players for "being good," when that entails preventing other people from actually getting to play the game. The typical "#*!% you got mine" attitude of public games is bad enough, but Warframe has it even worse. This attitude that "I'm better than you, so I'll help you by playing the game for you, just sit there and shut up scrub" which Warframe breeds, however, is substantially more infuriating and something which often makes me wish for a host kick.

If a friendship door is blocking your path, it means you've run ahead of your team. If you're consistently running ahead of your team, you are not playing a team game. You're soloing and being annoyed that you have to do it in the presence of other people with will of their own, rather than bots. If you go into multiplayer with that attitude, you deserve to be punished for being too good to consider other players, far as I'm concerned.

So your basically stating that skill should not reward effort and every single existence of loot should always be fixed regardless of how long you took to clear the objective, regardless if you manage to kill the boss without dying or died 5-6 times and it was someone else who killed them instead on top of not mattering if anything special could be done such as maybe breaking parts of a boss or `capturing the boss`, could yield extra loot chances or special loot that can only be obtained by being GOOD at the game.

My fking lord, your basically implying that a leech should get a free lunch, The point of having a competitive attitude is to help push people to strive towards better, but of course it can lead to the toxic attitude, when it should be more along the lines that the `scrubs` should be inspired to learn how to get better, improve in the game and eventually they learn to pull off the same level of skill as the `elitist`, instead of constantly leeching off those `elitists`, even after years of playing and they instead would rather cry that something is too hard, when content HAS no bugs and has some real design to push players to `git good`. Such as how fighting eidolons in `speed farming` was born, plus the mind-sets people have to `git good` to deal with the b.s. design of things like Riven mod unlocking. In addition to shedding off bad habits of doing outdated mechanics that d.e. has yet to remove from the game, which should of been towards the intent to make the game `FUN`. Its not like its borderlands where we get cash that can serve a REAL purpose or we atleast get guns which might be better, but eventually just phases out to using only purples/oranges and trashing any other guns for more money.

P.S. before you say credits do serve a purpose, they rarely see use outside of mod upgrades, Trading Legendary tier `items`, baro ki`teer stuff buying (namely prime pedestal stocking) hoarding or sinking into things like fabricating the new dry dock parts or just doing dojo research. Any other instance of using credit tends to be rather neglible and not to difficult to obtain the required credits, especially once you learn about the Index or the new `credits only` disruption game node.

 

Warframe is basically a good game ages ago, that has let itself be relying too much on stockholm syndrome case for plenty of player retention, its honestly just pushing its luck with continuing to spend more time releasing unpolished content while leaving elements that keep miffing players, especially when there are plenty of tutorials lacking or even a freaking prompt screen to show up during missions to give informed details, which plenty of online games i used to play and know very well, would just love to load you up with those if they do not give you tutorials first.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Avienas

[Steel_Rook]

13 minutes ago, Avienas said:

So your basically stating that skill should not reward effort and every single existence of loot should always be fixed regardless of how long you took to clear the objective, regardless if you manage to kill the boss without dying or died 5-6 times and it was someone else who killed them instead on top of not mattering if anything special could be done such as maybe breaking parts of a boss or `capturing the boss`, could yield extra loot chances or special loot that can only be obtained by being GOOD at the game.

While you're exaggerating for effect, that is more or less what I'm saying with some caveats. I've always held that games should over-reward median performance and under-reward both extremely high and extremely low performance. In fact, that's more or less what any game with adaptive difficulty settings does. Did you know that L4D will spawn more hordes and less in the way of supplies if the AI director considers you to be doing too well, but will ease up if it seems like you're struggling? That's essentially what I'm referring to. Go ahead and be outraged, but I'm not a strong believer in the "but muh skill" mentality.

 

17 minutes ago, Avienas said:

My fking lord, your basically implying that a leech should get a free lunch, The point of having a competitive attitude is to help push people to strive towards better, but of course it can lead to the toxic attitude, when it should be more along the lines that the `scrubs` should be inspired to learn how to get better, improve in the game and eventually they learn to pull off the same level of skill as the `elitist`, instead of constantly leeching off those `elitists`, even after years of playing and they instead would rather cry that something is too hard, when content HAS no bugs and has some real design to push players to `git good`.

So... I personally find pretty much everything wrong with the attitude you're displaying here. For one thing, Warframe is not a competitive game - not outside of the Conclave. Consequently, I have absolutely no tolerance for people trying to be competitive in a cooperative setting. Best case scenario, doing that makes you irritating and unhelpful. Worst case scenario, you're actively preventing me from engaging with the game and reducing me to a spectator. This doesn't inspire me to want to improve, it inspires me to wish for a Host Kick option. There is no point to having a competitive attitude in Warframe, and a competitive attitude makes you straight-up unwelcome on my teams. Either work with the team or go find another team that's fine with having the game played for them. Because if you're going to accuse people of "leeching" then I really don't want to team with you, ever.

Secondly, the attitude of trying to "inspire" people by denying them the ability to play the game, killing everything they're shooting at, running off ahead and doing the objectives before everyone can get to them and then yelling at the team while you sit at extraction does not work. It does not inspire improvement so much as resentment, not because "oh, I'm jealous of your awesomeness" so much as because "the game was fun until you came along." While Warframe doesn't have the concept of "kill stealing" due to how rewards are distributed, it does still allow a single player to fundamentally undermine the experience of other players who aren't as powerful. I have a friend who's generally less well-geared than myself and typically not as fast on the trigger. Accidentally kill-stealing him to the point that he has to ask me to stop is a common problem, and one I solve by simply slowing down, pulling back and letting him actually play the sodding game.

Finally, I find this attitude to be altogether toxic to its core. You start from the assumption that you're "elite" and that other people are "scrubs" who should learn from your "awesomeness" and become "better" at the game like you. I don't know if you meant to come across this breathtakingly, shockingly arrogant in your post and I AM willing to give you the benefit of a doubt that this was the result of exaggerating for effect, but... My god do I find this attitude just repulsive. Do you not consider that maybe different people enjoy the game in different ways? That maybe we're not all there for the adrenaline rush or for the rat race? That maybe some of us are fully capable of completing missions faster but simply don't enjoy doing that? Do you not consider how #*!%ing RUDE it is to ram your vision of how I should play down my throat even if I absolutely detest that means of playing the game? Just because YOU see Warframe as a speedrun game where finishing missions quickly and efficiently is a mark of the "elite" doesn't mean that everyone does.

This kind of attitude is why I'm glad that friendship doors exist. I realise this may come across as being deliberately spiteful, but friendship doors are about the only means I have of enforcing some kind of saner pace which allows me to actually play the damn game, rather than just flying through it and wondering what was supposed to be fun about it in the first place.

 

43 minutes ago, sitfesz said:

I guess this is your point to play pub. To troll people who actually does the objective and wants to finish when it's done. This door is straight up toxic to Warframe and this is your main reason to defend it.

How kind of you to assume my intentions, but no - I don't join public games to troll people. I join public games because I play with friends who insist we join public games for reasons of their own. And also no - I don't do full exploration runs on public games, for the obvious reasons. I try to stick with my team as much as that's possible. But even trying to stick with my team, we'll often have a single player running off ahead and sitting at friendship doors, all the while the three of us are making our way there. I mean, go ahead and blame me for fighting enemies along the way instead of bullet-jumping past all the fun. While I might sandbag dipS#&$s who run off ahead, I'm not going to deliberately trail behind everybody for no reason.

Here's the thing, though - if you stick with your team, friendship doors are never an issue. Public matchmaking will almost always give you a team of four. If three people on your team are NOT at the friendship door but you are, then blaming THEN is not really justified. Friendship doors are a majority vote. If three out of four people don't want to open a friendship door, then "the team" doesn't want you opening a friendship door. It's not the team that's toxic at that point, it's you. I mean think about it for a second. How do I - a single player - manage to prevent a whole team of people wanting to process through a friendship door. How do you imagine me ever "trolling" a public team. By what logistics could I possibly pull that off? Sounds to me like you're projecting here.

 

49 minutes ago, sitfesz said:

Friendship doors are the means of preventing people from playing the game. Without them, you would be free to explore and free to keep up or lead, while others would be free to progress.

Friendship doors exist to keep people at least relatively close to their team. That's the whole point. You need help from your team to proceed, you need help from your team to trigger a potentially failable objective. Yes, there do occasionally exist friendship doors blocking a dead end every so often. In 2000+ hours of doing full exploration runs, I can count the ones I've seen on the fingers of one hand. Far as I'm concerned, Friendship Doors blocking exploration is a straw man - a manufactured issue which doesn't actually exist in any meaningful capacity. Doubly so when it's delivered disingenuously, by people who don't actually want to explore in the first place.

You know what would help me explore far more than the removal of Friendship Doors? You not running ahead and counting me out of the mission while I'm exploring. I mean, if you feel that strongly about the plight of those of us who would like to explore in circumstances where we can, you have the power to enable us to do so. If that were your actual goal, of course.

[KaijuKraid]

Serious question: What do you plan to do if Friendships door are removed? Almost every time the game is played at this point it's usually 'Do Objective, Rush to Extraction.' If Friendship Doors are removed, are you just planning on rushing to Extraction, thus having to wait for the team to then meet you at Extraction anyways? Because if so, you basically have saved perhaps one whole second per Friendship Door. 

You'd essentially be trading 'Waiting at Friendship Door' to 'Waiting more at Extraction.' Considering also you need TWO people to start the timer at Extraction, what are you going to advocate next if the Friendship Door is removed? "Timer should start when one Person is at Extraction?" "Timer should be removed when person is at extraction?" "I should Extract on my own like in Endless Missions, thus being able to host migrate the others and punish them even harder for being so slow?"

If your whole goal is to 'speedrun', then it's better to go Solo, especially with Relics. You don't have to wait for others to get their Void Traces, you don't have to wait the extra 10 seconds at the end to pick your reward and you just go straight to extraction so you can then go again and speedrun again and again and again!

Edited December 23, 2019 by KaijuKraid

[kapn655321]

DE has been making exclusive loot the whole time.
They've also made kit and party comp restrictive content.
Playing the game with a friend is more sustainable for players,
and easier to program for from DE.

They're not trying to shame and gate others,
as much as they're trying to reward these folks.
Players with good friends play longer, with less argument,
stronger team comp, and better review of performance.

Playing up to these folks make DE's life easier,
and those player's game more rewarding.

It's good that they get a game mode.
Spy is a game mode designed more around solo,
while being accessible to others.
Doesn't mean don't do spy unless you're solo,
or that spy should be deleted for not being aimed at public.
Same deal for railjack and the like.
It's there for those who can use it best, but not exclusively.
 

[kapn655321]

1 hour ago, sitfesz said:

It is indeed a speedrunning game in many cases.

Can be.
I never feel it is unless players push for it.

It's also a slowly explore and loot game..
Why are there lockers and hidden rooms if the objective were to clearly just speed run?
Thus, it's not all about speed run.
It's up to a player's own desire to see it as they wish.

Some players see it as endurance runs into lvl 600, even though DE disagrees..
So it's only a speed run on speed intent missions, or if the party deems it so.

[(PSN)Apoleon_amarr]

If you are an advanced player like me, dors and walls are optional, there is a way, not posting the explanation here though, might get patched

[Teridax68]

I think friendship doors have the right intention (equalizing players across different traversal speeds), just the wrong implementation. It's not great for a level to turn into a walking simulator for most players just because one managed to speedrun the whole mission and complete it ahead of everyone else, but it's also not great to be amazing at speedrunning, and be "rewarded" with having to stand and wait in front of a door. Ideally, I'd thus like a different implementation so that faster players still get equalized and don't trivialize the mission condition, but instead get encouraged to do some side objective for an extra reward. 

[Steel_Rook]

2 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I think friendship doors have the right intention (equalizing players across different traversal speeds), just the wrong implementation. It's not great for a level to turn into a walking simulator for most players just because one managed to speedrun the whole mission and complete it ahead of everyone else, but it's also not great to be amazing at speedrunning, and be "rewarded" with having to stand and wait in front of a door. Ideally, I'd thus like a different implementation so that faster players still get equalized and don't trivialize the mission condition, but instead get encouraged to do some side objective for an extra reward. 

What form might that take, though? The way you defined it, obviously I agree this would be an ideal solution, but I can't quite picture how this might be done in practice. Even ignoring the objectives of the speed-runner (finish the mission, do it again, repeat until reward), what could you reward a player who ran off ahead to a door with? And more to the point - wouldn't rewarding that behaviour have the knock-on effect of incentivising it? I'm kind of reasoning this out in my head as I type, so please bear with me...

Suppose we treat a situation where one player has run ahead of three others and is standing by a door as its own unique situation as distinct from two or three players being at a door with the rest trailing behind. If you add a theoretical reward to that situation, doesn't that create a "competitive" incentive for players to deliberately run away from their team and be the first at the door specifically to get that reward? Again, I'm not sure what that reward might be, whether it be a minigame or drops or something else. I'm just worried about creating incentive for that kind of behaviour.

About the only thing I can think of is... So Destiny 2 has a speedrunning mission called "Outbreak Perfected." During this mission, a fast player has the option of pressing buttons which extend platforms and simplify the jumping puzzle of everyone trailing behind. Historically, we used a Warlock with extended Hover to bridge a massive gap, deploy a platform and let the rest of us through without having to go through a long jumping puzzle. I don't know if this can apply to Warframe since this game has very little in the way of meaningful jumping puzzles and less so which actually offers a significant impediment to players. I can maybe see doing SOME kind of minigame or mini objective to provide a buff for the rest of the team if you go too far ahead, but I'm not sure what would be worth it.

I'm also not sure if this would necessarily be worth restricting just to the speed-runner. Suppose, for instance, that certain doors need multiple players to open, but a single player can do "something" in order to deploy, say, a healing station at the door. Ignore the usefulness of a healing station, let's just assume for the sake of argument that's something we all want and need in order to make the mission go easier. Wouldn't it make sense to all players to deploy this useful thing even if the team moved together and they all reached the door together? I guess the paradigm then could be as to whether it's useful ENOUGH to justify stopping for it if you're all there anyway, whereas a sole speedrunner who can't open the door anyway "might as well" deploy it.

I like the core of the idea, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the specifics.

[Avienas]

40 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

I think friendship doors have the right intention (equalizing players across different traversal speeds), just the wrong implementation. It's not great for a level to turn into a walking simulator for most players just because one managed to speedrun the whole mission and complete it ahead of everyone else, but it's also not great to be amazing at speedrunning, and be "rewarded" with having to stand and wait in front of a door. Ideally, I'd thus like a different implementation so that faster players still get equalized and don't trivialize the mission condition, but instead get encouraged to do some side objective for an extra reward. 

Honestly i would rather it be part of the exploration aspect, such as 2 consoles that could be hacked where accessing the one thats on the primary path will reveal the other one on a slightly off-beaten path, but they have to be completed within 5, maybe 10 seconds of each other to prevent someone yolo soloing the consoles. As for why doing this? Well it could reveal a huge cache of loot with HIGH CHANCE of a rare loot cache could be present.

This basically does:

• Replace the friendship door by creating a bait-some appeal to luck out on rare loot or basically guaranteed rare drop loot (Can anyone say `friendship locked void rooms for easy argon crystal farming sort of like how derelict dragon key vault doors work???).
• Create an incentive to make those speed runners want to slow down when they spot a console and they might luck into say a Orokin potato blue print (Since it HAS to be something valuable, even a forma bp would be garbage once one high-stocks a hoarde, 30 minute boosters would not last long enough and you cant even sell landing craft parts for plat due to how toxic market chat is).
• But especially, makes it a OPTIONAL thing, especially since the speed runner could interact with the console then mark the first console and run over to the 2nd console to wait for the others to catch up if they really want to get the loot.

I always find optional but inciting bonuses to be much more worthwhile, then forcing what is basically a `scripted action` that you cannot skip just to progress. Especially if the main appeal of the game is not creative cutscenes but more towards it being a parkour actionie type of looter game, which should definitely capitalize on what its about, a looter shooter ninja game. Anyway should of submited this reply a while back but got distracted lol.

[sitfesz]

@Steel_Rook

Yes, I seem to mistake your intention and I assume you did mistake mine.

I hate friendship doors, because these are against me. I kill mobs and slide melee crates on my way, so while it is a walking simulator to others, they have no reason to not walk until they start to open lockers and wander off.

At extraction I can sit back and afk, tab out while waiting for the end of the mission. A FS door stops me before extraction where I can be flagged for afk or get killed. The benefit of this door is almost nothing, because others were left behind before and they will be left behind again in a few seconds.

While FS doors don't interfere your pace, because one minute is mostly enough to catch up, it does mine and I have to unnecessarily give more attention to the game. My other option is when I meet a friendship door I tab out and risk getting afk foagged or killed and most likely make the other 3 players wait for me to extract timeout.

Edit: my gameplay still doesn't have to be a walking simulator to others, because I get other jobs done while rushing and I don't know why do I have to get still punished for this, because it should slow me down enough. Oh and it makes me angry and makes others frustrated, because they see the message that someone is waiting for them.

Edited December 23, 2019 by sitfesz

[Avienas]

13 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

What form might that take, though? The way you defined it, obviously I agree this would be an ideal solution, but I can't quite picture how this might be done in practice. Even ignoring the objectives of the speed-runner (finish the mission, do it again, repeat until reward), what could you reward a player who ran off ahead to a door with? And more to the point - wouldn't rewarding that behaviour have the knock-on effect of incentivising it? I'm kind of reasoning this out in my head as I type, so please bear with me...

Suppose we treat a situation where one player has run ahead of three others and is standing by a door as its own unique situation as distinct from two or three players being at a door with the rest trailing behind. If you add a theoretical reward to that situation, doesn't that create a "competitive" incentive for players to deliberately run away from their team and be the first at the door specifically to get that reward? Again, I'm not sure what that reward might be, whether it be a minigame or drops or something else. I'm just worried about creating incentive for that kind of behaviour.

About the only thing I can think of is... So Destiny 2 has a speedrunning mission called "Outbreak Perfected." During this mission, a fast player has the option of pressing buttons which extend platforms and simplify the jumping puzzle of everyone trailing behind. Historically, we used a Warlock with extended Hover to bridge a massive gap, deploy a platform and let the rest of us through without having to go through a long jumping puzzle. I don't know if this can apply to Warframe since this game has very little in the way of meaningful jumping puzzles and less so which actually offers a significant impediment to players. I can maybe see doing SOME kind of minigame or mini objective to provide a buff for the rest of the team if you go too far ahead, but I'm not sure what would be worth it.

I'm also not sure if this would necessarily be worth restricting just to the speed-runner. Suppose, for instance, that certain doors need multiple players to open, but a single player can do "something" in order to deploy, say, a healing station at the door. Ignore the usefulness of a healing station, let's just assume for the sake of argument that's something we all want and need in order to make the mission go easier. Wouldn't it make sense to all players to deploy this useful thing even if the team moved together and they all reached the door together? I guess the paradigm then could be as to whether it's useful ENOUGH to justify stopping for it if you're all there anyway, whereas a sole speedrunner who can't open the door anyway "might as well" deploy it.

I like the core of the idea, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the specifics.

Try refering to my previous post to get a simple idea on how to change and improve how a `friendship door could work.

Short story: Basically create special consoles that require 2 consoles to be hacked simutaneously within X seconds (refer to the Fortuna Heists for a reference), Would just need to show the other console with a mark when you interact with the obviously put one and doing so would open up a HIGH-value loot cache which would have EXTREMELY high odds for rare loot caches or even loot on that planet at a significantly increased gain amount, since it would be a LOOT cache room and all that. Incentive for good loot is what whould create friendships not basically be forced into a match-making like system. But ultimately THIS would replace friendship doors, if people do not want to get very good loot, then they could all run ahead, otherwise the speed runner could enjoy waiting.

Speaking of which, if we had to KEEP the friendship door, i would rather it would just be put right next to extraction instead of mid-way thru the mission instead, but that is just my nitpicks i guess.

 

GRANTED i might like the idea where a speed runner could maybe reach special consoles to cause things like a sectional room ahead could get its airlock open to jettison a bunch of grineer and drastically speed up exterminate missions or similar mechanics to occur, but sadly i can`t think D.E. would get that creative with speed runner boon objectives. Where my previously listed idea feels more reasonable since it would not require that much to setup correctly and can likely use assets in the game already.