Didn't they say DE should buff everything instead of nerf? Time to buff the enemies

[844448]

Heard kosma grineer units are tough enough to take some hits instead of one shot like our usual play, I think we can transfer some of the kosma grineer stats into the enemies.

I think the reason why warframe is too easy is because the enemies are weak enough to be killed with one bullet and with kosma grineer being tougher than usual, I guess we can transfer at least the base health to old enemies (grineer, corpus and probably infested) to make them not too easy from the start considering you can reach 100 damage per bullet pretty easily even at beginning level.

What do you guys think?

[Test-995]

Eh, revert melee 2.0 damage scaling first, then we will consider that.

[LSG501]

How about bringing all types of weapons up to 'parity' before buffing enemies (they need balancing not buffing)

Until we get (excluding a few outliers) primaries and secondaries that can scale as well as melee and are a viable alternative at higher levels to just hitting the enemy with our melee there is no reason why we should even consider doing anything to enemies imo. 

It's become pretty obvious (to me and others in my clan) while doing liches and their higher enemies that the non melee weapons are just not 'balanced' right for the higher level enemies.  Yes the weapons are 'overpowered' on the star map, that's basically newbie territory, but with the way enemies scale this soon falls off at higher levels. 

[Drachnyn]

The reason the kosma grineer are so tough is because they had to make due with a smaller amount of enemies, since a fair bit of enemies are in form of fighters. Normal missions dont have to concern themselves with also reserving spawn points for fighters. If you just gave the base stats the kosma enemies have that would just make missions take for ages. The enemies wouldnt be more dangerous, they'd just be bullet sponges.

[844448]

9 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Eh, revert melee 2.0 damage scaling first, then we will consider that.

Come on, this game is too easy, right? I'm sure you people would find a way to deal with that with melee 3.0 considering people say they're wiping out level 100 faster than before. It wouldn't be a problem at all

[844448]

Just now, Drachnyn said:

The reason the kosma grineer are so tough is because they had to make due with a smaller amount of enemies, since a fair bit of enemies are in form of fighters. Normal missions dont have to concern themselves with also reserving spawn points for fighters. If you just gave the base stats the kosma enemies have that would just make missions take for ages. The enemies wouldnt be more dangerous, they'd just be bullet sponges.

Let's take the damage instead of the health then, surely it will make the game more challenging for a game with no challenge whatsoever without making bullet sponges because we shouldn't follow other games of using bullet sponges all over the place for challenge and hard enemies

[Test-995]

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Come on, this game is too easy, right? I'm sure you people would find a way to deal with that with melee 3.0 considering people say they're wiping out level 100 faster than before. It wouldn't be a problem at all

No no, nerfing us while buffing enemy is simply unfair, we should get revert for any nerfs and then they can get 1 million base HP and 1 trillion armor.

[Drachnyn]

Gerade eben schrieb 844448:

Let's take the damage instead of the health then, surely it will make the game more challenging for a game with no challenge whatsoever without making bullet sponges because we shouldn't follow other games of using bullet sponges all over the place for challenge and hard enemies

This would probably make some frames even more mediocre at higher levels. The tank frames still wouldnt care, the squishier frames would be even more squishy.

[844448]

Just now, Test-995 said:

No no, nerfing us while buffing enemy is simply unfair, we should get revert for any nerfs and then they can get 1 million base HP and 1 trillion armor.

What's the point? We've been unfair against the enemies and with the revert it would be gas + condition overload all over again so how is this unfair? We have some limits on our powercreep and enemies are slightly harder to kill, I don't think we will have any trouble with that, we're broken and want challenges, right?

[RX-3DR]

1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

No no, nerfing us while buffing enemy is simply unfair, we should get revert for any nerfs and then they can get 1 million base HP and 1 trillion armor.

So if they gave us back the old melee damage mathematics, but we exponentially ramp up the enemy health to a point where killing an Grineer Officer with the top tier melees still take 10 seconds, it'll be fine?

[844448]

Just now, Drachnyn said:

This would probably make some frames even more mediocre at higher levels. The tank frames still wouldnt care, the squishier frames would be even more squishy.

We have 4 abilities per frame, what are they doing there if you don't use it? I do level 5 lich with Nyx without problems, even Vauban and Mag. Shouldn't be that hard unless it's easy because I am an Asian which people make memes about it

[Test-995]

Just now, RX-3DR said:

So if they gave us back the old melee damage mathematics, but we exponentially ramp up the enemy health to a point where killing an Grineer Officer with the top tier melees still take 10 seconds, it'll be fine?

Yes indeed, that's what fun is.

Might as well implement all the acolyte mod as common drop from enemies, or outright giving away broken variant.

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

Bullet sponges is not a fun gameplay.

Kosma grineer are less fun than Mot or Orb Vallis

[Test-995]

4 minutes ago, 844448 said:

What's the point? We've been unfair against the enemies and with the revert it would be gas + condition overload all over again so how is this unfair? We have some limits on our powercreep and enemies are slightly harder to kill, I don't think we will have any trouble with that, we're broken and want challenges, right?

There is no point, just a big numbers.

[844448]

Just now, Test-995 said:

There is no point, just a big numbers.

And being unfair to enemies again. Didn't we want balance to make it fun? Or has that statement changed already?

[Test-995]

2 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And being unfair to enemies again. Didn't we want balance to make it fun? Or has that statement changed already?

We don't, if we do want such thing called "balance", we would play other games instead.

[RX-3DR]

11 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Yes indeed, that's what fun is.

Might as well implement all the acolyte mod as common drop from enemies, or outright giving away broken variant.

So why not just say no rather than mince words to try to pretend that the problem is melee changes as opposed to not being able to one-shot enemies?

[Yamazuki]

They still die in one hit when modded well though, it's just the officers that don't, and even then, they don't take long to kill. If someone can't kill them, it's not as if there's a requirement to do so anyways. That's a bit different than some of the non RJ missions where killing enemies is sometimes required.

[Test-995]

1 minute ago, RX-3DR said:

So why not just say no rather than mince words to try to pretend that the problem is melee changes as opposed to not being able to one-shot enemies?

What? problem? i don't think there is any, i'm just saying if we go "buff anything" route then every nerfs should be reverted.

[Ham_Grenabe]

We'd need to stop upgrading our gear too, remember that. If DE buffs the enemies, we'll just find the next DPS solution.

So it's on your head, @844448, to discipline yourself to stop improving your in-game abilities, either gear or technique. You'll need to commit to being no better than you are right now, for the rest of the game's lifetime. Otherwise, you take away any reason for DE to buff enemies.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

I’m into it if it’s a not a damage buff and more of an AI/gameplay buff. Hard to do, and DE has tried it with mixed success, but it’s what I want more of.

[844448]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

I’m into it if it’s a not a damage buff and more of an AI/gameplay buff. Hard to do, and DE has tried it with mixed success, but it’s what I want more of.

With abilities disrespecting cover, I don't think even a human playing as grineer would survive long enough when you can't even move a bit from warframe abilities so ability tuning (nerf) incoming?

[Yamazuki]

10 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

What? problem? i don't think there is any, i'm just saying if we go "buff anything" route then every nerfs should be reverted.

The melee stat changes, other than range, weren't really nerfs for general play though. Earlier to mid levels it was massive buffs as mods aren't needed at all now, and it's easier to get to a point where level 100 Grineer die in a single hit without relying on BR or Status effects. Unless you were sitting in endless missions for several hours, the lower damage cap is going to be irrelevant. There aren't that many durable enough enemies like the Wolf a while ago for it to matter, as even the Grineer in RJ can die quickly to a lot of melee weapons or the decent Primaries without even taking buffs into account.

[Test-995]

29 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

The melee stat changes, other than range, weren't really nerfs for general play though. Earlier to mid levels it was massive buffs as mods aren't needed at all now, and it's easier to get to a point where level 100 Grineer die in a single hit without relying on BR or Status effects. Unless you were sitting in endless missions for several hours, the lower damage cap is going to be irrelevant. There aren't that many durable enough enemies like the Wolf a while ago for it to matter, as even the Grineer in RJ can die quickly to a lot of melee weapons or the decent Primaries without even taking buffs into account.

My orvius does 1% damage of prior update no matter what, it's a nerf.

Also i didn't say anything about melee stat changes, i'm talking about melee scaling.

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Test-995

[DrBorris]

Buffing base enemy numbers is probably the worst way I can imagine DE making things more "difficult". The enemy scaling equations are already under enough stress due to how high of enemy levels we fight, keep in mind that they (the scaling equations) were created with the intention of level 40-ish being the "end-game" levels.

To show how absurd the Kosma enemies are, first let's look at the difference in EHP (effective hit points) of all the current factions outside Kosma.

This is nothing new, we all are accustomed to how absurd enemy armor scaling is and how it affects damage. But now let's look at normal Grineer versus Kosma.

That little yellow line on the bottom is the exact same line as the other chart, Kosma are just that absurd. Buffing the base numbers of enemies has made an already broken scaling system even more broken.

 

And as for the reason that was stated for why their health was buffed by around 17 times, I call BS. If DE thinks that enemy density is "low" then the entire rest of the game must be broken, if anything I consistently see higher enemy densities in Railjack. Sure, seven enemies on a tile isn't too much, but it is seven enemies in an extremely tight group. And while there are only around ten Grineer on a crewship, that is par for the course for a tile that is so small. Furthermore, it also seems like DE cranked the amount of damage enemies do, which makes the issues the game is having with 'tank' vs 'non-tank' frames even more apparent.

It is not like DE doesn't know of a better solution, on the latest Devstream they actually talked about having the enemy makeup of boarding parties be crafted in the future. My guess is like having a support unit, heavy units, or just some form of enemy synergy. This is the way DE should add "difficulty", not by breaking the core rules to the game.