Didn't they say DE should buff everything instead of nerf? Time to buff the enemies

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Some players are power mad, and they like it that way. That's all good.
The goal is to exploit the systems fully, leverage every advantage, and conquer completely.

Not every player wants that.
Some just want the enemy to feel sensible to fight, regardless of exploits.

If weapons exploiting exponential properties is the only avenue to kill,
it's a shallow experience for the power mad, and completely uninviting to the rest.
This is what needed to be addressed with the melee changes.
It was perfectly fine that some players did millions of damage with the right mods;
the trouble was, everyone else was doing hundreds of damage against invincible husks of bad AI.

If player sentiment agreed that it was fine to be overpowered, they could have kept them.
...but they felt it was too easy, as the exploits were so mundane and common place,
that not only were they the only option, but they trivialized combat.
Executing that relentlessly was only sustainable for so many players.
..and while we may lament the capability we had, players who were not interested in that method
were lamenting that literal hundreds of weapons were pea shooters, and meta was ride or die.

I don't have a problem with players doing 1million damage to something that only takes 5000,
but I'm not the only player. ..however I damn sure did have a problem that nothing I liked worked.
Top came down, bottom came up, more (not all) players have better options as a result.

If they go scaling armor up even worse, then there's just going to again be all-cheese, only cheese.
..and once again, the only option is to be power mad, not just powerful.

We had a little bit of mechanical nuance with condition overload and status interplay, but it was skin
deep, and fundamentally hijacked the game's difficulty to a level that frustrated people.
The only answer to supply those people with content, is even more broken scaling, as OP proposes.
Unless they're ok with doing that damage to weak things (which they're not,) because otherwise..
throwing out one busted option for a handful of weapons, was not worth throwing out Thousands of
players, and hundreds of weapons.

Why so serious? this thread is here with the assumption of de does "buff everything instead of nerfs", and DE don't do that anyway, there is no reason to say what kind of game you actually want, because this is the thread about the things that never happens.

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

Why so serious?

I didn't mean it to seem like I was brow beating or anything.
That's certainly not what I was going for anyways.

What I'm trying to say is, I'd like for you to be able to have the melee you like,
so long as I can have a method I like, too.

Folks calling level 500s too easy, while other weapons barely crested above 100 dmg,
was not the kind of system I'd like a return to.

That pertains to the armor/damage/difficulty scaling that the threads about is all.
 

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I didn't mean it to seem like I was brow beating or anything.
That's certainly not what I was going for anyways.

What I'm trying to say is, I'd like for you to be able to have the melee you like,
so long as I can have a method I like, too.

Folks calling level 500s too easy, while other weapons barely crested above 100 dmg,
was not the kind of system I'd like a return to.

That pertains to the armor/damage/difficulty scaling that the threads about is all.
 

But it's not so different even for now though, redeemer prime could one shot level 1000 while other melees doing 10damage to them, prior update orvius had capability to do that too but DE removed that for whatever reasons.

It's just that strong weapons being strong, and the only way to change that is buffing everything to exactly same stat, but i don't think that's what you want.

Also even "other weapons" should have better capability to deal with them since condition overload was a thing, weapon tierlist hasn't changed that much, we just need less meta mods.

 

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Test-995 said:

But it's not so different even for now though, redeemer prime could one shot level 1000 while other melees doing 10damage to them, prior update orvius had capability to do that too but DE removed that for whatever reasons.

It's just that strong weapons being strong, and the only way to change that is buffing everything to exactly same stat, but i don't think that's what you want.

Also even "other weapons" should have better capability to deal with them since condition overload was a thing, weapon tierlist hasn't changed that much, we just need less meta mods.

 

There are absolutely mechanical quirks that could use adjustment to be fun.

I'll posit this to you..
If condition overload builds were fun because they could kill enemies with insane scaling,
that translates to a certain upper limit of hits needed to enjoy killing them.
Say you had to hit something 5-10 times to kill it, and that was enjoyable.
Losing that, was the loss of enjoyment.

So, if the weapons still kill the enemies in 5-10 hits, through mechanical nuances..
would any of us need that exponential cheat to do it?
If the set up is executed to plan, it will work, as it did.

What if all the enemies and weapons were closer to that?
If, "late game," was still boiling down to 5 wacks with a stick..
then a balanced method of making all things die to 5 wacks with a stick is the goal.
It's just, how you wack em. CO and weapons dramatically out of balance,
were the only ways to get there.

Nothing is lost if the same game play experience is achieved, through fun mechanics.
...Until that is reached, it's inevitable that things are reigned first, then some parity
struck from a much closer balance, to the same rewarding result.

If every weapon has the potential to do what you loved in it's own way,
then there cannot be more exponential cheese on top...
else That is the new goal that must be catered to as Late Game.
CO for example, will clearly only be the most beneficial to status and DPS.
Nothing should one shot a lvl 1000, unless Most things do..
and if lvl 1000 is totally arbitrary, why even make it go that high?

If you can enjoy killing a lvl 500, and it's no different than killing a lvl 20..
but other things are struggling to get past lvl 20.. that's a problem.
In the process of fixing it, some things get worse before they get better,
in order for all things to get better, and not just a few.

[Test-995]

9 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

There are absolutely mechanical quirks that could use adjustment to be fun.

I'll posit this to you..
If condition overload builds were fun because they could kill enemies with insane scaling,
that translates to a certain upper limit of hits needed to enjoy killing them.
Say you had to hit something 5-10 times to kill it, and that was enjoyable.
Losing that, was the loss of enjoyment.

So, if the weapons still kill the enemies in 5-10 hits, through mechanical nuances..
would any of us need that exponential cheat to do it?
If the set up is executed to plan, it will work, as it did.

What if all the enemies and weapons were closer to that?
If, "late game," was still boiling down to 5 wacks with a stick..
then a balanced method of making all things die to 5 wacks with a stick is the goal.
It's just, how you wack em. CO and weapons dramatically out of balance,
were the only ways to get there.

Nothing is lost if the same game play experience is achieved, through fun mechanics.
...Until that is reached, it's inevitable that things are reigned first, then some parity
struck from a much closer balance, to the same rewarding result.

If every weapon has the potential to do what you loved in it's own way,
then there cannot be more exponential cheese on top...
else That is the new goal that must be catered to as Late Game.
CO for example, will clearly only be the most beneficial to status and DPS.
Nothing should one shot a lvl 1000, unless Most things do..
and if lvl 1000 is totally arbitrary, why even make it go that high?

If you can enjoy killing a lvl 500, and it's no different than killing a lvl 20..
but other things are struggling to get past lvl 20.. that's a problem.
In the process of fixing it, some things get worse before they get better,
in order for all things to get better, and not just a few.

Can i ask for Tl;dr version?

I reread those sentence 3 times yet can't understand what i supposed to say.

And i'm not really talking about what is fun or not.

 

[kapn655321]

5 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Can i ask for Tl;dr version?

I reread those sentence 3 times yet can't understand what i supposed to say.

And i'm not really talking about what is fun or not.

 

The cheats needed to be removed, till they design enough cheats for everything.

Edited December 24, 2019 by kapn655321

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The cheats needed to be removed, till they design enough cheats for everything.

Then i'd say cheats need to be kept and they should add one every then, removing cheats counts as nerf.

[kapn655321]

7 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Then i'd say cheats need to be kept and they should add one every then, removing cheats counts as nerf.

The cheat was the only way to win.

The win state needed a total reformat.

Present exploits set the bar too high to balance for others,
making it impossible to fix the problem with them there.

Point is, not to have hundreds of weapons be nerfed so yours can exist.

[Test-995]

4 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The cheat was the only way to win.

The win state needed a total reformat.

Yeah, no need to remove cheats.

Problem is on win state right?

[kapn655321]

10 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Yeah, no need to remove cheats.

Problem is on win state right?

Which is where we find ourselves on topic again. 😃
Knew we could do it.

Keeping those cheats in means those players need content for them.
The enemy needed for that content nerfs the weapons not made for it.

They were Pitifully nerfed by comparison..
and the work needed to fix that could not be done with that problem in place.


The numbers don't matter if the kills feel right.
 

Edited December 24, 2019 by kapn655321

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Which is where we find ourselves on topic again. 😃
Knew we could do it.

Keeping those cheats in means those players need content for them.
The enemy needed for that content nerfs the weapons not made for it.

They were Pitifully nerfed by comparison..
and the work needed to fix that could not be done with that problem in place.


The armor and numbers don't matter if the kills feel right.
Higher armor is a nerf to everything not made for it.

Even if they remove those cheats, they still buff enemies (= keep nerfing our weapons), because we want "challenge" (but we don't)

So, it's better NOT to remove those cheats, because that'll just make content more difficult.

It's like saying we should nerf the amesha when we have the content that is clearly balanced around amesha.

[Loza03]

19 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Buffing base enemy numbers is probably the worst way I can imagine DE making things more "difficult". The enemy scaling equations are already under enough stress due to how high of enemy levels we fight, keep in mind that they (the scaling equations) were created with the intention of level 40-ish being the "end-game" levels.

To show how absurd the Kosma enemies are, first let's look at the difference in EHP (effective hit points) of all the current factions outside Kosma.

This is nothing new, we all are accustomed to how absurd enemy armor scaling is and how it affects damage. But now let's look at normal Grineer versus Kosma.

That little yellow line on the bottom is the exact same line as the other chart, Kosma are just that absurd. Buffing the base numbers of enemies has made an already broken scaling system even more broken.

 

And as for the reason that was stated for why their health was buffed by around 17 times, I call BS. If DE thinks that enemy density is "low" then the entire rest of the game must be broken, if anything I consistently see higher enemy densities in Railjack. Sure, seven enemies on a tile isn't too much, but it is seven enemies in an extremely tight group. And while there are only around ten Grineer on a crewship, that is par for the course for a tile that is so small. Furthermore, it also seems like DE cranked the amount of damage enemies do, which makes the issues the game is having with 'tank' vs 'non-tank' frames even more apparent.

It is not like DE doesn't know of a better solution, on the latest Devstream they actually talked about having the enemy makeup of boarding parties be crafted in the future. My guess is like having a support unit, heavy units, or just some form of enemy synergy. This is the way DE should add "difficulty", not by breaking the core rules to the game.

This.

Just, ALL of this.

'Just buff no nerf' philosophy breaks things. To use the traditional scale imagery that's so common with balance - if you try balancing it by just piling more weight on each side, then at some point it's the scales that are going to break. 

[(XBOX)Umbra Howl]

23 hours ago, 844448 said:

Heard kosma grineer units are tough enough to take some hits instead of one shot like our usual play, I think we can transfer some of the kosma grineer stats into the enemies.

I think the reason why warframe is too easy is because the enemies are weak enough to be killed with one bullet and with kosma grineer being tougher than usual, I guess we can transfer at least the base health to old enemies (grineer, corpus and probably infested) to make them not too easy from the start considering you can reach 100 damage per bullet pretty easily even at beginning level.

What do you guys think?

Honestly I agree with that 

[kapn655321]

23 hours ago, 844448 said:

tough enough to take some hits instead of one shot like our usual play

For the low levels, absolutely yes.

Low level enemies should have way more health.
You can't even beat them up before they turn into gibs.
But, the scale can't be the same.

Lvl 1 enemies closer to lvl 20's health.
Top out somewhere beneath a level 90 Bombard.
Just the health systems.

Meet it with mechanical complexity, not just more damage.
Once that is satisfying, excess cheese is fine for those who really wanna see millions of dmg.

The damage and accuracy scaling, also Far lower ceiling.
Create some circumstantial threats in the mechanics..
again, not just damage.

I feel like Lich are an early skeletal structure, of exploratory late game enemy design..
and will not resemble it's end result in the slightest, except through distant relation.

New War may be on better footing, the Lich systems after that..
I'm really looking forward to what they do over this next year.

If it can be done, I have every reason to believe they're setting up to do what we're looking for.

[Kimimoto]

23 hours ago, Test-995 said:

Eh, revert melee 2.0 damage scaling first, then we will consider that.

Nah get rekt n00bs

[Test-995]

23 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

Nah get rekt n00bs

Hey let's be more creative, that response feels pretty old and boring.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

Hey let's be more creative, that response feels pretty old and boring.

How's this:

"OwO, no Tank yew miwstew! OwO! Instead, you shud get wecky-wecky! UwU. Yew arw such a N3\/\/|3!"

 

… Too creative?

[Lost_Cartographer]

While I'm not necessarily against tougher enemies all around, the issue is scaling.  At current and starting from level 30, you can basically take a Kosma Elite Lancer and know you're fighting the rough equivalent of a standard Elite Lancer twice its level, or a Napalm it's level.  So our level 60 KELs are like shooting level 120 lancers, or an squad of level 60 napalms.  We haven't even left Earth.

And I just want to mention how fast enemy HP bloats.

Kosma Elite Lancers at level...

30 =  22397 ehp

40 =  67395 ehp

50 = 162,046 ehp

60 = 335,150 ehp

70 = 622,506 ehp

80 = 1,066,471 ehp

I'm sorry, but "hard" isn't the appropriate term here.  "Sponge" is.  The challenge should be in target priority and avoiding damage.  There is no target priority if everything takes forever to kill.  And if avoiding damage is as simple as going immortal, stopping the enemy from shooting at all, or just never exposing one self because they all have hitscan (can't exactly weave through their fire like in Halo or DOOM) then the challenge stopped where we entered the mission via a vent, and it's all raw math from there.

However, if I'm right and the new damage types in Railjack, are going to be integrated into the standard game play experience (meaning no more advanced elements, "IPS" contain the viral and corrosive procs) then bloated health values might be mitigated a fair amount by the simple fact that shooting an enemy then means there's a chance we'll do more damage the next shot, and even more with the shot after that.

[Aldain]

17 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

I'm sorry, but "hard" isn't the appropriate term here.  "Sponge" is.

My definition of the Wolf of Saturn Six in a nutshell.

I REALLY hope DE can find a way to get away from "Sponge = Challenge" game design.

[Ham_Grenabe]

1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

And if avoiding damage is as simple as going immortal, stopping the enemy from shooting at all, or just never exposing one self because they all have hitscan (can't exactly weave through their fire like in Halo or DOOM) then the challenge stopped where we entered the mission via a vent, and it's all raw math from there.

 

"All raw math from there" is the major problem we (as in, Warframe players) keep running into: you beat high-level missions in the Arsenal Screen, not in the mission itself, because it's just math. 

It's one of the reasons I find the lower level missions more fun, even if the enemies can't take a hit.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[(PSN)Pummelegance]

5 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

While I'm not necessarily against tougher enemies all around, the issue is scaling.  At current and starting from level 30, you can basically take a Kosma Elite Lancer and know you're fighting the rough equivalent of a standard Elite Lancer twice its level, or a Napalm it's level.  So our level 60 KELs are like shooting level 120 lancers, or an squad of level 60 napalms.  We haven't even left Earth.

And I just want to mention how fast enemy HP bloats.

Kosma Elite Lancers at level...

30 =  22397 ehp

40 =  67395 ehp

50 = 162,046 ehp

60 = 335,150 ehp

70 = 622,506 ehp

80 = 1,066,471 ehp

I'm sorry, but "hard" isn't the appropriate term here.  "Sponge" is.  The challenge should be in target priority and avoiding damage.  There is no target priority if everything takes forever to kill.  And if avoiding damage is as simple as going immortal, stopping the enemy from shooting at all, or just never exposing one self because they all have hitscan (can't exactly weave through their fire like in Halo or DOOM) then the challenge stopped where we entered the mission via a vent, and it's all raw math from there.

However, if I'm right and the new damage types in Railjack, are going to be integrated into the standard game play experience (meaning no more advanced elements, "IPS" contain the viral and corrosive procs) then bloated health values might be mitigated a fair amount by the simple fact that shooting an enemy then means there's a chance we'll do more damage the next shot, and even more with the shot after that.

EHP is not even the full story, it's worse. Let's say you are a competent player who wields the mechanics of the game but you don't have or want the most meta builds.

Instead you strip the armor from enemies using your status weapon or warframe power before switching to your damage weapon. After all, it's just as easy to armor strip both of them, so how does a level 90 Elite Kosma Lancer stack up with a Level 170 Corrupted Heavy Gunner? At 225,000 health It has 189% of the health of the poor gunner. In fact, the most powerful Corrupted Heavy Gunner you can simulate is outmatched in health without armor by a level 48 Elite Kosma Lancer.

How you deal with these is left to warframe powers and the most abusable melee weapons.

[Nerzov]

A lot of warframes gets one-three shoted by enemies lvl 60 and above (and this despite the fact that 100 lvl it's a common activity, not thte "fetish" like 2 hour survival). Kosma more "fat" than Bombard. Where else to buff them?!

Edited December 24, 2019 by Nerzichenel

[Loza03]

25 minutes ago, Nerzichenel said:

A lot of warframes gets one-three shoted by enemies lvl 60 and above 

The lancers especially have hitscan, longer-ranged weapons.

At least the Twin Grakata and Mei wannabes have either capped range or utterly terrible accuracy past sneezing distance.  But the Lancers you find on ships? They wield Quartakks, which if you've ever used a Quartakk, you will know is modestly accurate.

[Im_a_Turtle]

On 2019-12-23 at 7:30 AM, 844448 said:

Heard kosma grineer units are tough enough to take some hits instead of one shot like our usual play, I think we can transfer some of the kosma grineer stats into the enemies.

I think the reason why warframe is too easy is because the enemies are weak enough to be killed with one bullet and with kosma grineer being tougher than usual, I guess we can transfer at least the base health to old enemies (grineer, corpus and probably infested) to make them not too easy from the start considering you can reach 100 damage per bullet pretty easily even at beginning level.

What do you guys think?

Yeah! Wooo! Bullet sponges will make this game awesome!

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

Meh, we'll see if they ever make this game hard.  I doubt it because they pander to their base and their base says they want it easy as #*!%. If people want to be challenged in a video game best to look at something other then warframe like dark souls or something.