I'm ok with a Amesha nerf\rework...

[SenorClipClop]

7 hours ago, Uan91 said:

the rework Is needed only because of Empyrean, amesha in other modes was fine.

Amesha shut off all difficulty, completely, in every AW mode before Empyrean. It's been broken levels of strong as a tank/support Archwing since its realease, and the only reason it hasn't been reigned in yet is because Archwing's limited game mode pre-Railjack gave too little reason to bother with rebalancing (same reason no Archwing has ever gotten a free-space use balance pass until Railjack).

It was "fine" because it didn't rob other players of things to do in AW missions, but now that there's some AW content scaling past Level 30, Amesha's brokenness now presents a bit of "false choice fallacy". Let's hope the other Archwings get some tweaks to be more than just transports to enemy Crewships. Buffing other AWs will likely help even out choices, but we can't just pretend Amesha isn't broken. It does need some tining down.

[SenorClipClop]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

Considering how de "buffs" other things when they nerf the 1 good thing in its class, it'll be safe to say all archwing will be equally garbage.

All this statement really implies to me is that you want this game to be not-at-all challenging.

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

13 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

All this statement really implies to me is that you want this game to be not-at-all challenging.

You think getting 1 shot is challenging?

[Sapphirya]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

You think getting 1 shot is challenging?

There is a middle ground between being completely invincible, and dying in one shot. Let's hope that DE finds it.

[Mephane]

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Create an Avionic that increases health and heals over time for Archwings within 100 meters.

This is such an awful idea. Not only are the existing Archwing buffing Avionics already useless for their express purpose, and only useful for buffing the Railjack itself (which they do for some reason) due to that ridiculous range, now you want the ultimate solution to Archwing viability be another one of these with the same useless range. For comparison, the loot vacuum range of the Railjack itself is 200 meters, and you have to almost touch an item to loot it due to the sheer size of the ship.

And even if they made the range of these Avionics a much more reasonable 1000 meters, you'd still be at the mercy of the ship owner to even equip these in the first place, and there simply aren't enough slots to even consider anything extra beyond the core things.

[Fire2box]

8 hours ago, KnossosTNC said:

That's the plan, as of the last Devstream.

We'll just have to wait and see how it goes.

it's a terrible plan given how awful Railjack is. Amesha has never, ever been a problem for anyone until railjack came out. DE should look at why it's being used vs just nerfing it without rhyme or reason. And the reason is simple, piloting a railjack is god awful. When archwings are better at what a railjack is supposed to do of course people are going to use the archwing. The solution isn't to nerf the archwing but to actually make the railjack better. Simply increase every Railjack stats by two times or three times, extend the range of Cryophon, etc. 

 

But nope DE won't do that because they would rather nerf the meta, then the next after that, the next after that. 

[Fire2box]

45 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

All this statement really implies to me is that you want this game to be not-at-all challenging.

All this statement tells me is that you think warframe is ever challenging. It's not it's the very reason Profit Taker has invuliablity phases, why we have to throw whatever the things are at orb mother. Fight's that people do maybe a dozen times if that and leave it forever. 

[CopperBezel]

Yeah, I've said before that the railjack should have a health and energy regen field for archwings to make it feel like more of a home base and less of a defense target (in the case of a weak railjack) or a giant glass cannon (with a strong one), but it needs to be a ship component that makes it happen - upgradeable, but present no matter what.

I do think 200m would be okay for a base range, but what 200m would mean is not "here is a buff field in which to fight", but "here is a regen field just a bit bigger than the railjack to come back and recharge in between attack runs." Like when you park in the ship's wake and it pulls you along.

 

Edit: Amesha was never a problem for anyone because no one was playing archwing. Railjack is the first content in the game that's on Amesha's level, in part due to ignoring her 2 with most weapons.

Edited January 4, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Hexsing]

So I see railjack as a pve thing. Where you rely on players helping players to be the best and to win the objective.  B

I never understood the need to nerf something in PVE if it gets the job done.  If this was PVP it would be another story. 

But it is not PVP and you rely on others to complete said missions and if the Amesha is getting it done I don't see why it gets the nerf bat.  

That's like saying Trinity needs a nerf bat.  People think they need one on a squad and she's always welcome.

I think the others need to be buffed to get on point with the Amesha not the Amesha getting crushed under the nerf bat.

Would you rather fail mission or succeed?

I just don't understand.

[SpringRocker]

6 hours ago, Cubewano said:

what was the last thing de over nerfed to the point of uselessness? 

Well... Zennistar was one. It was pretty much one of the best weapons for Ivara (almost like it was tailor made for her). After the duration nerf it became useless as you don't grab Ivara to run in to melee enemies and build up a combo (it was useful because she could use and station from range).

DON'T GET ME WRONG! Even though I didn't like the changes, a nerf was needed. It was enough to carry through level +400 enemies in arb solo defense due to interesting interactions (cheese). I just wish it didn't get hit with that nerf but there was also no other real way around it.

 

Anyway back to the original topic. The fact you can carry in veil solo with a naked Railjack as Amesha as long as you're spamming buttons is ridiculous. I'd welcome a big'ol nerf to it.

Edited January 4, 2020 by SpringRocker

[spirit_of_76]

8 hours ago, Uan91 said:

I'm not for a simple reason: the rework Is needed only because of Empyrean, amesha in other modes was fine.

no it is still the most power full it is just unneeded power in all but Empyrean letting the isital's utility shine through the odanata and elytron still need buffs and a total rework respectively.  

[IIDMOII]

If the railjack, it's upgrades, and content were balanced better, there'd be no need for archwings. They don't serve any purpose other than letting lone wolf's a way off the ship.

It's like a dev sponsored mechanic that allows people to ignore the actual intended loop.

If you feel the need to engage fighters with an archwing rather than the supplied turrets, then the game mode is failing itself. We already have archwing missions.

If the railjack wasn't a complete piece of garbage and it wasn't so expensive, people might actually be able to keep their ships in line with the difficulty curve. 

But instead it's a bunch of undergeared trash cans chipping away at missions too difficult to match the progression, so people feel obligated to archwing.

The game mode is such trash that people are ignoring it's intended loop and using tools from a completely separate game mode to overcome it.

Archwings are fine.  The entirety of railjack is not. Rather than tackle the underlying issues with railjack, people are all of a sudden worried about archwings 4 years late.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by IIDMOII

[spirit_of_76]

1 minute ago, IIDMOII said:

If the railjack, it's upgrades, and content were balanced better, there'd be no need for archwings. They don't serve any purpose other than letting lone wolf's a way off the ship

they are good for killing crew ships and resource acquisition

2 minutes ago, IIDMOII said:

If you feel the need to engage fighters with an archwing rather than the supplied turrets, then the game mode is failing itself. We already have archwing missions

that depends on the equiped weapon in pubs I often find my arc gun better in my ship that is not the case but I have mark III sigma weapons for a reason (I waited untill I could fully out fit my ship before taking it out for a reason) 

I believe that once we get command archwing will have a place in the game I just hope that they give the ship some options like fighter wings to support archwing bombing actions and changes to archwing equipment load outs to allow for heavy ordnance like torpedoes and dumb fire rockets instead of a melee weapon (other Items would be RCS for agility, boosters for better boost, sensor packages, and added armor) 

as is you are not wrong out side of crew ships pre tack 4

[Traumtulpe]

20 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Yeah, I've said before that the railjack should have a health and energy regen field for archwings to make it feel like more of a home base and less of a defense target

Exactly this. Also get rid of the artillery and give me a big (slowly) sweeping laser beam that oneshots anything it touches. The fighters should just dodge it, of course.

[CopperBezel]

26 minutes ago, IIDMOII said:

If the railjack, it's upgrades, and content were balanced better, there'd be no need for archwings. They don't serve any purpose other than letting lone wolf's a way off the ship.

It's like a dev sponsored mechanic that allows people to ignore the actual intended loop.

If you feel the need to engage fighters with an archwing rather than the supplied turrets, then the game mode is failing itself. We already have archwing missions.

If the railjack wasn't a complete piece of garbage and it wasn't so expensive, people might actually be able to keep their ships in line with the difficulty curve. 

But instead it's a bunch of undergeared trash cans chipping away at missions too difficult to match the progression, so people feel obligated to archwing.

The game mode is such trash that people are ignoring it's intended loop and using tools from a completely separate game mode to overcome it.

Archwings are fine.  The entirety of railjack is not. Rather than tackle the underlying issues with railjack, people are all of a sudden worried about archwings 4 years late.

There are two things going on here.

First, you're assuming that the devs had no intention of archwings being a major part of this mode, and that everyone is intended to stay on the railjack and push buttons. There are a fair number of people with this opinion. It doesn't seem to extend to warframes, which are similarly a tool we have that is required for some activities in the mode and that involve operating independently. I'm not sure what it's based in. To me it's pretty clear that the enemy has fighters and crewships and the players have fighters and a crewship. Out of a squad of four, it seems most efficient for one or two players to be in archwing much of the time.

I'm particularly unsure of the motivation for the complaint. I've never seen a railjack with fewer than two crew members staying on most of the time - the host usually pilots and at least one person will always opt to do gunnery and put out fires, very often two. 

Here's the thing - it's very often said that archwings are "lone wolfing" or "playing hero", trying to put a bad cast on the motivations of players that prefer archwing. If you've played archwing in Railjack, you know this is objectively not very accurate - archwings have to care very much about where the railjack is, what it's doing, and how to support it. But it feels ... just maybe a little projection prone? It's host / pilots who make the complaint, and they are necessarily in control of the railjack and in a position to do their own thing entirely and have the rest of the crew support them in the process. That's not a bad thing - but you can't really overlook it when you're implicating archwing players as ignoring the spirit of the mode or whatnot.

In any case....

Second big thing, you're surprised that archwings are getting attention all of a sudden after a major mobility rework and the first new content involving them in years, which happens to be the first challenging or high level content that exists for archwing at all. Archwing was and is a neglected and half finished thing with very little rewarding play, and Railjack appears to be giving it some attention.

[nslay]

10 hours ago, xS0nico said:

To be honest Amesha is one hell of a really powerful archwing even outside of Empyrean, almost borderline broken if you ask me. Not saying it should be nerfed, but i won't complain IF in exchange of a nerf (not even a heavy one, mind you) you give me 3 more powerful archwings.

Amesha outside of Empyrean... That's too funny! You have no reason to even need Amesha outside of Empyrean.

At least with respect to Odonata, Itzal and Amesha... these 3 work just fine outside of Empyrean. In fact, after Itzal was nerfed, Odonata is better than Amesha for normal Archwing because it amplifies damage. Damage is more useful than survivability in normal Archwing missions because nothing can one shot you. You don't need god mode/healing/gimmicky energy regen in normal Archwing missions. And that's after doing endurance runs in Archwing Interception (8+ rounds) with all 3 of those to rank them!

Everything hits so hard in Empyrean that only the survivability Archwings can do it effectively. There's only one Archwing that can do that well: Amesha. Odonata can do it somewhat too. Anything without substantial defensive abilities? Forget about it (Itzal, Elytron)!

DE wants other Archwings to be used in Empyrean? Give them all defensive abilities/stats with teeth. Nerfing/reworking Amesha will not fix that. If the reworked Amesha is still defensive, everyone will continue to use it (otherwise, everyone will be switching to Odonata).

[Cubewano]

22 minutes ago, nslay said:

DE wants other Archwings to be used in Empyrean? Give them all defensive abilities/stats with teeth. Nerfing/reworking Amesha will not fix that. If the reworked Amesha is still defensive, everyone will continue to use it (otherwise, everyone will be switching to Odonata).

DE wants Archwings to be balanced for Railjack content and they aren't just nerfing Amesha to achieve such, they outright said all of Archwing as a whole needs a rebalance and that their plan is to bring up things where needed and of course bring down things where warranted as well, which Amesha is likely party to. There is a wide birth of balance options between Amesha's level of function and the rest of Archwings and I'm sure we can find a spot inbetween them that is acceptable to land on, this is not some either or of complete power extremes.  

Edited January 4, 2020 by Cubewano

[(PSN)ChaosTheNerd]

10 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

agreed.

- Itzal should be a hit-and run archwing, functioning like a Fighter. it should have faster flying speed (all Archwings can Blink now so it won't be the Meta) and it's drones be buffed. maybe also give it increased damage whilst moving?

-Elytron should be a Destroyer/heavy Archwing, it's powers need VERY substantial damage buffs and Core Vent could do with replacing.

- Odonata should be the jack of all trades, able to do some damage as well as protect the user. Energy Shield should have something like a fixed 95% Damage reduction bonus whilst active, then it would be viable against higher level enemies.

- Amesha serves pretty well as a protector/support Archwing without needing a nerf.

THIS THIS THIS ^^^^^

[Kerberos-3]

11 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

-Elytron should be a Destroyer/heavy Archwing, it's powers need VERY substantial damage buffs and Core Vent could do with replacing.

I'd like that add to this that Elytron's 1 and 3 could do with replacement and Warhead severely needs a damage buff. At the very least, make Bloomer and Thumper self-guided rather than manually-guided. Manual Guidance makes both those abilities worthless outside of POE/Vallis, and even then I'd much rather use Warhead for immediate results as opposed to a flying C4 or a chain explosive.

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

DE wants Archwings to be balanced for Railjack content and they aren't just nerfing Amesha to achieve such, they outright said all of Archwing as a whole needs a rebalance and that their plan is to bring up things where needed and of course bring down things where warranted as well, which Amesha is likely party to. There is a wide birth of balance options between Amesha's level of function and the rest of Archwings and I'm sure we can find a spot inbetween them that is acceptable to land on, this is not some either or of complete power extremes.  

That would be great! I like Odonata a lot. But as long as Empyrean Crewships and certain fighters are: 1, 2, Dead... they all have to be defensive Archwings. There's no room for gimmicky stuff like invisibility or homing missiles! I mean every single Archwing is going to need hundreds of base armor to be able to take a hit. When players can take a hit, then they can start to think about ability strategies beyond just surviving!

[ValinorAtani]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Cubewano:

DE wants Archwings to be balanced for Railjack content and they aren't just nerfing Amesha to achieve such, they outright said all of Archwing as a whole needs a rebalance and that their plan is to bring up things where needed and of course bring down things where warranted as well, which Amesha is likely party to. There is a wide birth of balance options between Amesha's level of function and the rest of Archwings and I'm sure we can find a spot inbetween them that is acceptable to land on, this is not some either or of complete power extremes.  

DE and balance? Its like still believing in Santa Claus. We all know how this will end. All AW will be useless. RJ will still feel like houses made of paper. A RJ with all veil gear and upgraded avionics in Earth Nodes. Thats how a RJ Gamemode should feel.

[Cubewano]

7 minutes ago, nslay said:

That would be great! I like Odonata a lot. But as long as Empyrean Crewships and certain fighters are: 1, 2, Dead... they all have to be defensive Archwings. There's no room for gimmicky stuff like invisibility or homing missiles! I mean every single Archwing is going to need hundreds of base armor to be able to take a hit. When players can take a hit, then they can start to think about ability strategies beyond just surviving!

We can only wait and see what DE does, but at the least I'm pretty sure they have a very strong awareness of how fragile Archwings are in Empyrean content right now and I don't think they are in support of how we pretty much get instantly deleted in all of them unless we have damage immunity at the moment. 

[CopperBezel]

5 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

I'd like that add to this that Elytron's 1 and 3 could do with replacement and Warhead severely needs a damage buff. At the very least, make Bloomer and Thumper self-guided rather than manually-guided. Manual Guidance makes both those abilities worthless outside of POE/Vallis, and even then I'd much rather use Warhead for immediate results as opposed to a flying C4 or a chain explosive.

 Elytron needs a full kit replacement. There's just no getting around it. Three of the abilities are "fire a missile" and yes, it's the worst possible kind of targeting that requires the player to guide it by the hand like a toddler to its target, targeting that makes you desperately wish for even a dumbfire missile, but they're bad and nearly identical abilities regardless.

I don't think even one direct damage missile is really an acceptable option. As has been said many times, the difference between an MR7's Elytron and an MR 28's is 55% power strength, which means Elytron will be right back where it is in archwing, but in the new content instead - one-shotting everything in Earth Proxima but with no upgrade path whatsoever, and as a result irrelevant in Saturn, let alone Veil. Or based on % health and unable to one-shot anything I guess. We have guns for shooting things already, and they get plenty of their own mods, so let them do their job. If the missiles were like Vauban's grenades and just released a power of some kind on impact it'd be different, but they're all damage oriented. 

Looking at Archline as an investment level, I can picture plenty of over-the-weekend reworks for Elytron that would be more effective than anything based on its existing abilities could be. You know, how about Renewwing, Archsnare, Will o' the Wing, and Space Pillage? I could work with that. = P

[Kerberos-3]

8 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

 Elytron needs a full kit replacement. There's just no getting around it. Three of the abilities are "fire a missile" and yes, it's the worst possible kind of targeting that requires the player to guide it by the hand like a toddler to its target, targeting that makes you desperately wish for even a dumbfire missile, but they're bad and nearly identical abilities regardless.

I don't think even one direct damage missile is really an acceptable option. As has been said many times, the difference between an MR7's Elytron and an MR 28's is 55% power strength, which means Elytron will be right back where it is in archwing, but in the new content instead - one-shotting everything in Earth Proxima but with no upgrade path whatsoever, and as a result irrelevant in Saturn, let alone Veil. Or based on % health and unable to one-shot anything I guess. We have guns for shooting things already, and they get plenty of their own mods, so let them do their job. If the missiles were like Vauban's grenades and just released a power of some kind on impact it'd be different, but they're all damage oriented. 

Looking at Archline as an investment level, I can picture plenty of over-the-weekend reworks for Elytron that would be more effective than anything based on its existing abilities could be. You know, how about Renewwing, Archsnare, Will o' the Wing, and Space Pillage? I could work with that. = P

I think Elytron is fine as far as it's intended role, which is to be the damage-oriented archwing, it's just that the guidance for it's abilities is incredibly bad and most of it's abilities deal next to no damage(rather ironic, don't you think).. If anything, I'd keep Warhead as is as far as mechanics go, just with a massive damage boost. It makes sense for that ability to be manually guided, it's a freaking nuke. However, I'd rework Thumper into a Macross-style missile massacre ability, basically just Odanata's 3(why does Odanata even have that ability anyways?), and I'd make it's current 3 into it's 1 with automatic guidance.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Kerberos-3

[FataL-Flaw]

If DE touches Amesha before dramatically increasing the survivability of all archwings in RJ..I'm going to be seriously pissed.

 

They are turning into the fun police with these "balance" changes.  They aren't balance changes.. they are "we dont like how you're playing so we'll remove that option" changes. 

 

Archweapon damage with a good riven is in an okay place in RJ (for some weapons e.g. Cyngas) - you can kill fighters reasonsbly well.. but a good railjack turret is still quite a bit faster.   

Some archweapons - useless

Archwing damage abilities - useless

Itzal penumbra - useless if there are any crewships

Itzal zipline - funny if you want to sling fighters off the battlefield but otherwise useless.

 

If there is a rush nerf pass before they add all of the needed buffs..not going to be cool.