Warframe Health VS Shield: A risk/reward approach

[kapn655321]

We all know that health and (where possible) armor are the way to go to stay alive.
Shields are hardly worth it unless your frame is specialized for them.

The concept is assuming: if they've had the better part of a decade to make shields better, and Won't ever, then what could be done to make them appealing?

This gave me an idea:
Having lower health/armor is a riskier proposition..
What if kills were worth more affinity, the lower your health was?
Betting your skill against the chance of getting 1-shotted (and spending the affinity it takes to revive.)
Up to +15% (or so) affinity awarded per kill, losing a percentage of potential bonus depending the type of Health/Armor mods used.
Up to +10% (or so) affinity awarded per kill when as low as 1% health.

EDIT: Rolling Guard, Quick Thinking, Adaptation, and Bleeding Dragon Key would not work toward this bonus.
Invisibility and invincibility would have to negate a portion of this bonus. (80%?)
This bonus will not apply to SO/ESO. Only Star Chart.
Healing frames might be met with resentment if they impede a player's affinity gain, so that would need a work around.



If you want to challenge yourself with not speccing into survivability, then the difficulty that comes with it could be of some tangible benefit. Likewise with Armor. If you're not taking the risk, you're not getting the additional reward. Suddenly playing to a shield build instead, has some positive purpose. Volt and Mag being far harder to mod effectively early on, earn an appropriate advantage that caters to early game. Going as a high defense frame allows you to go higher in level before encountering real risk.

Any thoughts?
*Thanks for the input so far. I'll keep tweaking it as we go as you guys point out imbalances.

Edited January 16, 2020 by kapn655321

[(NSW)Quarky]

Aw dude, I don't want to play with the bleeding dragon key equipped at all times....

Edit: also like... rolling guard, quick thinking, adaptation make low HP/armor hardly a problem.

Edited January 15, 2020 by (NSW)Quarky

[lukinu_u]

Then invisible warframes with bleeding dragon key will become the meta to level up weapons.
In a farming game like Warframe, basing rewards on a specific stat is just bad, because as good as the stat is, you don't want it because you want more rewards.

For example, who would go on the "sentient anomaly" without bringing at least one loot frame ? No one because as good as other warframes are at doing specific stuff the loot frames cannot, getting more loot is mandatory.
If you translate this to "less health = more loot", this mean "more health = less loot" so you're better playing fragile frames that have ways to survive without relying on their HP, which is a huge part of the frames we have, but this still restrict the use of the few relying on health. And honestly, it's not like we have a "tank meta" we need to get rid of, so there is no problems here.

If you want shield to be usable, I think a shield rework would be a better solution.

[Tsukinoki]

29 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

This gave me an idea:
Having lower health/armor is a riskier proposition..
What if it were worth more affinity, the lower your health was?
Betting your skill against the chance of getting 1-shotted (and spending the affinity it takes to revive.)

So basically:
If you like playing a tank frame enjoy leveling up slower!  Meanwhile an invisible loki with a bleeding dragon key will level up super fast and for no added challenge!

This just makes frames like Inaros and Nidus a detriment to play.  After all if you enjoy those frames then you are just going to get less affinity because they are tankier.

Also leaves some frames like Rhino in an odd position since his IS would break the formula.  Bleeding key and decaying key wouldn't negatively impact him, yet would still lower his health pool meaning he would get more rewards.

How about we rework shields to be more relevant instead of punishing people for playing tanky frames?

[TheGrimCorsair]

7 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Then invisible warframes with bleeding dragon key will become the meta to level up weapons.
In a farming game like Warframe, basing rewards on a specific stat is just bad, because as good as the stat is, you don't want it because you want more rewards.

For example, who would go on the "sentient anomaly" without bringing at least one loot frame ? No one because as good as other warframes are at doing specific stuff the loot frames cannot, getting more loot is mandatory.
If you translate this to "less health = more loot", this mean "more health = less loot" so you're better playing fragile frames that have ways to survive without relying on their HP, which is a huge part of the frames we have, but this still restrict the use of the few relying on health. And honestly, it's not like we have a "tank meta" we need to get rid of, so there is no problems here.

If you want shield to be usable, I think a shield rework would be a better solution.

We definitely have a tank meta, lol, how #*!%in' high are you?

If anything more frames need to be closer to Banshee in durability and available damage resistance needs to be capped to around 50% except in very rare circumstances.

[kapn655321]

7 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

So basically:
If you like playing a tank frame enjoy leveling up slower!

The same, not slower.

Not in any way looking to rock the boat for people who enjoy survivable frames. The current low-health frames already have their boat rocked constantly by cheap shots. That could be mitigated by making it worth while through affinity. Speaking of which, that affinity should also work into the SHARED affinity, so that if you have a squish frame to protect, everyone benefits from that role... and if everyone's a squish frame, then (that would be a new dynamic) having to leave early as a result isn't just a direct shortfall of that frame.

Edited January 15, 2020 by kapn655321

[kapn655321]

21 minutes ago, (NSW)Quarky said:

Aw dude, I don't want to play with the bleeding dragon key equipped at all times....

Edit: also like... rolling guard, quick thinking, adaptation make low HP/armor hardly a problem.

Then those should be excluded. Good catch.

[Genitive]

I agree with people above, shield rework would be much better. Your idea would create a new, punishing meta.

[Yasha-7HS]

38 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

We all know that health and (where possible) armor are the way to go to stay alive.
Shields are hardly worth it unless your frame is specialized for them.

This gave me an idea:
Having lower health/armor is a riskier proposition..
What if it were worth more affinity, the lower your health was?
Betting your skill against the chance of getting 1-shotted (and spending the affinity it takes to revive.)

If you want to challenge yourself with not speccing into survivability, then the difficulty that comes with it could be of some tangible benefit. Likewise with Armor. If you're not taking the risk, you're not getting the additional reward. Suddenly playing to a shield build instead, has some positive purpose. Volt and Mag being far harder to mod effectively early on, earn an appropriate advantage that caters to early game. Going as a high defense frame allows you to go higher in level before encountering real risk. Downside: Mirage and Volt would be way crazier on SO, so perhaps raising their base health/armor to balance the bonus gains would be a win for everyone.. though I'm open to suggestions on what other balance would feel appropriate here if any.

Any thoughts?

Yeah, no. 

That would be a "just slap on Quick thinking, flow, and rolling guard" instead of anything that was actually risky. There are frames like Garuda and Inaros who can already care less about being less than 30% health at any given time, Hildyrn and her absurdly low health pool just doesn't care in general, and then the obvious major downside that this brings is that there's going to be more people in things like ESO and Hydron leeching harder than before by just equipping straight damage or whatever as well as Undying Will to be in bleedout forever. Public matchmaking would be even worse as those who already  do nothing in other missions decide to bring unleveled frames and weapons that already can do little damage because they don't have their mods bring no survivability at all because it gives them more XP. 

All around this is a terrible idea. 

[kapn655321]

1 minute ago, Genitive said:

I agree with people above, shield rework would be much better. Your idea would create a new, punishing meta.

We've been waiting for a shield rework for so many years.. if it's not coming, then there should be some reason to use them.

A new punishing meta? I don't agree with that. There would be a benefit to play a riskier game, but it would not be mandatory. This is not to undermine the affinity gains of anything.. quite the opposite. If you want a challenge, you get a reward. Leveling would be At Worst the same, while being consistently faster across the board. Having a squishy frame that sacrifices surviving for power would be a benefit, rather than someone to just pick up all the time as they often are now.

Many people feel the game is, "too easy," because there's always a clear answer to cheese something. Other people feel the game is, "too hard," because modding the way they want just gets them punished for no benefit. This meets those in the middle. Certainly though, I appreciate the criticism. If we can determine what scenarios make this problematic, there may be a way to benefit the areas that are not.

[kapn655321]

7 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

That would be a "just slap on Quick thinking, flow, and rolling guard" instead of anything that was actually risky.

Topic has been revised to exclude those exceptions.
 

8 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

There are frames like Garuda and Inaros who can already care less about being less than 30% health at any given time, Hildyrn and her absurdly low health pool just doesn't care in general, and then the obvious major downside that this brings is that there's going to be more people in things like ESO and Hydron leeching harder than before by just equipping straight damage or whatever as well as Undying Will to be in bleedout forever. Public matchmaking would be even worse as those who already  do nothing in other missions decide to bring unleveled frames and weapons that already can do little damage because they don't have their mods bring no survivability at all because it gives them more XP. 

Garuda would be a clear winner here, that's for sure. Inaros I'd imagine to be in flux, though his benefit would be minimal, as using health mods is his Meta. Hildryn sees practically no use in SO/ESO compared to existing options, which this could change.. however it is a valid point that perhaps this would break that game mode. Might need to retain this bonus to just the star chart. The affinity gain bonus is intended from kills, so camping out with a squish frame is still not to anyone's benefit, including their own. I'll clarify that in the topic. Thanks for pointing those out.

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, kapn655321 said:

This gave me an idea:
Having lower health/armor is a riskier proposition..
What if it were worth more affinity, the lower your health was?
Betting your skill against the chance of getting 1-shotted (and spending the affinity it takes to revive.)

*Looks at Garuda*

[kapn655321]

Just now, GPrime96 said:

*Looks at Garuda*

Oh yeah, she'd have a great time. Her, Mag, Volt, Mirage.. absolutely. She'd also help churn some slight affinity bonus for the party, giving her a new favored spot in the meta.

[Tsukinoki]

15 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The same, not slower.

Not in any way looking to rock the boat for people who enjoy survivable frames. The current low-health frames already have their boat rocked constantly by cheap shots. That could be mitigated by making it worth while through affinity. Speaking of which, that affinity should also work into the SHARED affinity, so that if you have a squish frame to protect, everyone benefits from that role... and if everyone's a squish frame, then (that would be a new dynamic) having to leave early as a result isn't just a direct shortfall of that frame.

And yet if I took an Inaros into a mission along side a perma-invis loki with a bleeding key equipped then my Inaros is leveling up slower.  And quite a bit at that, purely because he's tankier.
Sure from an objective standpoint inaros is leveling up just like today, but that's not how anyone would actually see it.  They would see having a tank frame being actively detrimental to them.
It essentially becomes a punishment for playing tankier frames.

Further having it be like you described creates a boring and annoying meta: One person in the squad makes the lowest HP possible with a Bleeding dragon key and kills everything.  No one else does anything but absorb damage for them and distract the enemy with CC.  After all any kills the non-squishy frame makes punishes the rest of the squad with lower affinity gains!
Doesn't really sound that fun or healthy for the game....

11 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Many people feel the game is, "too easy," because there's always a clear answer to cheese something. Other people feel the game is, "too hard," because modding the way they want just gets them punished for no benefit. This meets those in the middle.

Except not really.
How does this make the game any harder for a group of invisible Loki's with bleeding keys equipped?
Or any defense mission of super low frames paired with a Frost?

Neither of those situations become any harder from this change, they just get massively more affinity and for not accepting any more risk or challenge or possibility of failing.
And to the average player, and especially to incoming new players, it looks like playing a tanky frame is going to punish you because you'll level slower, not that playing a squishier frame is going to be rewarded.

[Corvid]

Honestly, I'd rather see them rework armor into something more interesting than just a health multiplier. This would also solve the whole "Grineer get exponentially tanky" thing.

[Skaleek]

@kapn655321

Well, this is definitely a different idea. I applaud the creativity and ingenuity of your process. I think for reasons others explained in the thread, that it would not work due to tanks feeling "punished" for playing tanks. I think the one post made that said "aw dude i don't wanna play with a permanent bleeding dragon key" summed up the issues perfectly.

I do look forward to reading other ideas made by you though, because out of the box thinking is always a healthy and constructive way to go about providing feedback to current game systems. That and it's always nice to see new ideas in general and see what spawns from those new ideas. So I give you a +1 for your thought process, not the idea itself.

Also outside edge case: Hildryn would be a monster in your system. You can see now that even in your OP you've had a bunch of edge cases you've had to account for. I'm sure there are a bunch we haven't thought of as well.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Skaleek

[kapn655321]

6 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

And yet if I took an Inaros into a mission along side a perma-invis loki with a bleeding key equipped then my Inaros is leveling up slower.  And quite a bit at that, purely because he's tankier.
Sure from an objective standpoint inaros is leveling up just like today, but that's not how anyone would actually see it.  They would see having a tank frame being actively detrimental to them.
It essentially becomes a punishment for playing tankier frames.

Further having it be like you described creates a boring and annoying meta: One person in the squad makes the lowest HP possible with a Bleeding dragon key and kills everything.  No one else does anything but absorb damage for them and distract the enemy with CC.  After all any kills the non-squishy frame makes punishes the rest of the squad with lower affinity gains!
Doesn't really sound that fun or healthy for the game....

Except not really.
How does this make the game any harder for a group of invisible Loki's with bleeding keys equipped?
Or any defense mission of super low frames paired with a Frost?

Neither of those situations become any harder from this change, they just get massively more affinity and for not accepting any more risk or challenge or possibility of failing.
And to the average player, and especially to incoming new players, it looks like playing a tanky frame is going to punish you because you'll level slower, not that playing a squishier frame is going to be rewarded.

An addendum to strike Bleeding Key was added. I'm revising as I go with everyone's responses, because there are some great points being made.

Our CC game is too weak with no reason to use it, when you could tank and DPS. You're right that the proper balance in my suggestion is not yet struck. That's what I'm hoping to refine with feedback. Defense missions of super squishy frames protected by a frost is in this game's roots. ^_^
However, that's currently totally ignored when everyone can just DPS their way through levels.. which is just as much an annoying and bland meta.

I think perhaps the perception of HOW MUCH bonus I'm looking to award has been assumed high, and it's clear the bonus would have to be relatively minimal to not cause too great an offset. I'll ballpark it to see if this is closer to not upending the game to make this a requirement:
          Up to roughly +18% affinity rewarded from kills total, with a percentage lost depending each health/armor mod equipped.
          Up to +8% maximum affinity rewarded from kills at or below 5% players health bar remaining.

Should this benefit be mitigated in any way by being stealthed? Stealth kills already giving their own bonus of course.

"We may be about to die, but at least the affinity bonus is kinda nice."
"I can beat this level with 1 hand tied behind my back, and the game respects that I can."
A sort of, "I meant to do that." mechanic when you're getting roughed up.
Riding the line of nearly dead is a risky proposition.. but there's no reason to put yourself out like that. Could we convert that potential frustration?

 

[SneakyErvin]

53 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The same, not slower.

Not in any way looking to rock the boat for people who enjoy survivable frames. The current low-health frames already have their boat rocked constantly by cheap shots. That could be mitigated by making it worth while through affinity. Speaking of which, that affinity should also work into the SHARED affinity, so that if you have a squish frame to protect, everyone benefits from that role... and if everyone's a squish frame, then (that would be a new dynamic) having to leave early as a result isn't just a direct shortfall of that frame.

That would imply that people die in content where you spend your time to level something, which isnt the case.

So all this lower-health-more-affinity would lead too are more leeches with even lower health than the basic the frame comes with.

No thanks.

Edited January 15, 2020 by SneakyErvin

[kapn655321]

6 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Honestly, I'd rather see them rework armor into something more interesting than just a health multiplier. This would also solve the whole "Grineer get exponentially tanky" thing.

I'd love that to... and oddly enough, this is a precursor that I feel holds up something about That precisely.
All Armor mods are % rather than set value. Some could be base value. (Like melee range)

If you Do want to put armor on a non-armor frame, you can't as it goes against the intent.
Now, if that intent is preserved through affinity.. it speaks for itself, without restricting that stylistic choice from the devs.
DE "Armor Volt isn't the True way to use Volt.. it limits his potential affinity. Playing more like he wants you to puts you at a benefit."
Players who like more health: "I don't mind, if I'm able to make him live longer once he's leveled."

Likewise, our New and Forma'd frames would all level faster, as we don't have all of our health mods on.
As for the beefier frames, there may be an incentive to Not just load them to the hilt with health mods.
Sort of gives some kind of reason not to just tank and DPS.. opens up potential build options.

 

[Skaleek]

19 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Honestly, I'd rather see them rework armor into something more interesting than just a health multiplier. This would also solve the whole "Grineer get exponentially tanky" thing.

Me too. They could always just go the mass effect route for armor health and shields. Shields are a static value of health that are resistant/weak to certain damage types and regenerates quickly. Armor is a static value of health that is resistant/weak to certain damage types and regenerates slowly. Health is a static value that is resistant/weak to certain damage types and does not regenerate without help of medkits, consumables, etc.

Basically that static value is weighted against its ability to regenerate. Ie 100 shields, 200 armor, 300 health. You get more hp, but it doesnt regen. You get a little less armor, but it regens slowly, and you get very little shields but it regens super quick, and then they all have their strength/weaknesses to various elements.

This would effectively put shields, health, and armor on a level playing field. The game would need major rebalancing for something like this, though.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Skaleek

[kapn655321]

10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would imply that people die in content where you spend your time to level something, which isnt the case.

So all this lower-health-more-affinity would lead too are more leeches with even lower health than the basic the frame comes with.

No thanks.

If people aren't dying in content where they need to level, then it's a waste to mod into safety with health/armor. If you take the risk to specialize into being even meaner, or faster, it benefits you. Playing too safe throws some, "mittens," on the potential of trying to be immune to damage. "Don't be a chicken, they can't hurt you." ...but if they do and you die, it takes a chunk of affinity to revive. It's a whole realm of risk we don't take, Unless we're just trying to brute force through levels already. Playing shield focus, CC, defensive strategies would also be useful to the party again.

Edited January 15, 2020 by kapn655321

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, kapn655321 said:

If people aren't dying in content where they need to level, then it's a waste to mod into safety with health/armor. If you take the risk to specialize into being even meaner, or faster, and you get the job done faster. Playing too safe throws some, "mittens," on the potential of trying to be immune to damage. "Don't be a chicken, they can't hurt you." ...but if they do and you die, it takes a chunk of affinity to revive. It's a whole realm of risk we don't take, Unless we're just trying to brute force through levels already. Playing shield focus, CC, defensive strategies would also be useful to the party again.

The risk isnt there, it doesnt matter what mods you have or dont have for survival when you level, you never die anyways. So there is no reason to reward people extra for not taking vitality or armor mods. They might aswell just increase base affinity gain in such a case, it would have the same outcome.

[stormy505]

2 hours ago, kapn655321 said:

We all know that health and (where possible) armor are the way to go to stay alive.
Shields are hardly worth it unless your frame is specialized for them.

This gave me an idea:
Having lower health/armor is a riskier proposition..
What if kills were worth more affinity, the lower your health was?
Betting your skill against the chance of getting 1-shotted (and spending the affinity it takes to revive.)
Up to +15% (or so) affinity awarded per kill, losing a percentage depending the type of Health/Armor mod used.
Up to +10% (or so) affinity awarded per kill when as low as 1% health.

EDIT: Rolling Guard, Quick Thinking, Adaptation, and Bleeding Dragon Key would not work toward this bonus.

If you want to challenge yourself with not speccing into survivability, then the difficulty that comes with it could be of some tangible benefit. Likewise with Armor. If you're not taking the risk, you're not getting the additional reward. Suddenly playing to a shield build instead, has some positive purpose. Volt and Mag being far harder to mod effectively early on, earn an appropriate advantage that caters to early game. Going as a high defense frame allows you to go higher in level before encountering real risk. Downside: Mirage and Volt would be way crazier on SO, so perhaps raising their base health/armor to balance the bonus gains would be a win for everyone.. though I'm open to suggestions on what other balance would feel appropriate here if any. I think the only answer there will be to exclude SO/ESO from this bonus... also allowing there to be a more beneficial way to level on star chart by comparison.

Any thoughts?
*Thanks for the input so far. I'll keep tweaking it as we go as you guys point out imbalances.

The benefit of running no survivability mods is more damage. Cause technically you don't need survivability mods if you play perfectly.

We shouldn't Nerf tank frames ability to level.

[kapn655321]

11 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

We shouldn't Nerf tank frames ability to level.

Tank frames are just as likely to benefit from this, as the clear choice would no longer be to simply play to their health. Not using an unnecessary amount of health mods on an Inaros for example, would benefit affinity gains, and allow for more mod diversity and benefit toward ability use. If you Do play perfectly, you still put on health mods regardless, because there's no reason Not to. This could be that reason.

I should ask, do you see a way this could be implemented that does not feel like a comparative disadvantage to Tank frames?

Edited January 15, 2020 by kapn655321

[kapn655321]

*accidental double post.
 

Edited January 15, 2020 by kapn655321