Saryn Nerf Proposal

[Traumtulpe]

8 hours ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

Saryn isn't squishy, not statistically, not mechanically. Toxic Lash + Silva & Aegis Prime gives you a 90% forward DR; Adaptation, Regenerating Molt, Hunter Adrenaline, Primed Flow, & Quick Thinking combined gives you an absolute tank

Silva & Aegis Prime had 90% damage blocking on it's own, Toxic Lash allowed you to achieve the same effect with any other weapon. This, however, is gone from the game now - Toxic Lash provides no benefit to defense anymore, you can no longer autoblock while attacking, and all weapons block all damage (with varying degrees of coverage).

Saryn is actually squishy unless you use a bunch of mods to fix the problem, you can put Umbral mods, Adaptation, Hunter Adrenalin, Primed Flow, Quick Thinking and Arcanes on any Warframe to make them survivable.

She is as much of a tank as Ash is. In other words: She isn't, at all.

[kwlingo]

17 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Are you talking about Inferno? Because it's range is 25% higher than Miasma's.

Spores is how much? lol

[Traumtulpe]

41 minutes ago, kwlingo said:

Spores is how much?

Spores 16m.

Miasma 20m.

Inferno 25m.

Of course with 280% range they all cover enormous areas.

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

On 2020-03-11 at 5:50 AM, Traumtulpe said:

It helps if you put mods on her.

You clearly don't play her then. Even with maxed out umbral mods in Railjack if you stop moving for half a second you're dead.

On 2020-03-11 at 6:01 AM, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

There are mods on her. DE up scaled rail jack enemies to balance them out because you won't be dealing with large numbers of them. Saryns die to two simultaneous ram sled boarding parties. In the veil (which I assume will not stay as the hardest sector of rail jack) you won't have time to weaken enemies with spores in the rail jack before they kill you. Now imagine the boarding parties are sentients.

Suggestion: Paracesis crit build and Toxic Lash. Drop your 4 to temporarily stagger the enemies and then rush in with the Paracesis. Use your attacks to keep them staggered and prevent them from attacking you and use the viral from Miasma to help speed up your TTK.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

You clearly don't play her then. Even with maxed out umbral mods in Railjack if you stop moving for half a second you're dead.

I did all of Railjack as Saryn, with Umbral mods + Adaptation. You are not invincible, but you also don't die unless you start to hack something without distracting the enemies.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

12 hours ago, Vharu said:

Well you would know then that over that time period just about everything has gotten stronger, so dont try to isolate this as some exclusive thing that has happened to Saryn. Besides you join the forums in March 2015 - thats 5 years, not 7. And I got a higher forum rep than you since joining September last year? As far as quality input goes - I'm more active and experienced than you on this matter. Stick to what you do - playing that game that is, not discussing it - 5 years and you barely discuss anything.

Oh you press 1 and 4 ey? but for your 5th point you specifically refer to using her skill 2 aswel. Besides, different players build and play in different ways - I personally use her Venom Dose and Contagion cloud augments to buff the damage of Primary, and Melee weapons. I don't purely depend on Spores and Miasma, infact when you use Spores augment mod it doesnt even shoot the spore, its a press to hold which uses energy consumption without sending the spore. 

Just because you build and play in a certain way, doesn't mean everyone does the same. 

The video I posted made by someone with more experience than you states otherwise, and my recent experiences also supports this. When Mirage is nuking everything, spores decay and don't have a target to spread to - ergo this 1 & 4 style of yours wont work. And no, I don't think mirage is too OP, and I dont think Saryn is too OP - personally I think players should stop trying to pigeon-hole a pure DPS Warframe into some Utility/CC category just because of Quote "Jealousy". 

Shes not a Tank, and shes not a Utility/Support frame, she is a DPS frame - people need to stop pretending otherwise and thus expecting otherwise. 

Again, this is your build preference. I came across another Saryn who uses 85% range, max Strength, high efficiency - I personally got for 200% strength, 45% efficiency, 250% range, 100% duration. This allows more Weapon damage to come from the Augments of Venom Dose and Contagion cloud. Some players go for low strength so the spore count can tick up higher without killing things too fast and resulting in decay. 

Again, Just because you build and play in a certain way, doesn't mean everyone does the same. 

Toxic lash has nothing to do with DR, you just paired this with Silva & Aegis which the melee is doing the DR. So while you are name dropping mods, lets see if all of it fits? You want Adaptation, Molt Augment, Hunter Adren, Primed Flow and Quick thinking, plus a max range so Drift mod, Streched and Augar Reach, overextended... well your up to 9 mods now and still no Vitality, Armor, Duration, Energy efficiency or strength.

It seems when you are making one point about making Saryn tanky your bias in what build mods you mention, but when you are trying to make another point about her being too OP you lean to a different build with different mods... or you somehow think Saryn can fit 15+ mods or something. Sure, you might have been playing this game for 7 years, but it seems your life skills with discernment and critical thinking doesnt really support your game experience well. 

Lets put every tanky mod on a warframe with Grace and Guardian just to make a point that it can survive? What a joke, Saryn is Saryn... its a DPS frame... Saryn is not Inaros.

Really? more people play Saryn then all those frames you mentioned - not to mention it would kill the ESO focus farm (which you playing for 7 years probably don't care about because you have all the focus trees done right?). 

You know why she hasn't been nerfed? Because DE knows its a high risk and negative impact outcome for the game - despite this being the 100th fkn thread on someone calling for it. It's good to see Warframe climbing back up on Steam statistics with player activity (funny as this correlates with Bramma introduction and Self-damage removal - another thing alot of people cried about and wanted to nerf). But if they nerf Saryn, they are going to lose a chunck of the player base.

I will dump this game and my clan that I run if they Nerf Saryn - if im saying that, then bet your arse that many others feel the same. And judging by steam statistics, it's probably a good idea not to lose its recent upward momentum as Warframe tries to re-capture the peak levels of it former player base - the former player base that you think stuck around.

Done. 

Wow. Impotency projection much?

I joined the forums with this profile after 2 years of playing on PC; as you'll note, this is my Xbox profile. And yes, I don't post as much as you, because I don't feel the need to scream "fix it or I quit!" every time a topic that I disagree with comes up. 

Saryn is going to get nerfed; Pablo confirmed as much. His retraction was more of a "not yet; at least not until I have an idea of how to fix her", not an outright denial of plausibility.

The writing is on the wall, you might as well quit now and spare yourself the disappointment. 

Everything has gotten more powerful with time? Tell that to Nyx, Vauban, Atlas, Hydroid... to name a few warframes that have grown increasingly less powerful and less desirable as time has gone on.

 

You go on about your "experience" yet you have no concept on how these types of events play out. Ash was once what Saryn is now; he had a fanbase that adored him not only for his effectiveness, but also for his theme: the badass ninja assassin theme. To his fanbase, an Ash nerf wasn't just an attack against their favored playstyle; it was an attack against their idea of what his theme meant to them.

 

"DE wouldn't nerf him, he's a Ninja Assassin! Being a total bad ass is what he's supposed to do!"

That was the predominant argument against an Ash nerf; no reasoning, no objective justifications; just a knee-jerk reaction and blind optimism, as a significant portion of the community willfully submitted to the denial of everything that lead up to the inevitable.

Guess how that turned out? Ash got nerfed, most of the players who swore they'd quit toughed it out, and the few that did quit were immediately replaced by fresh Tenno as Warframe's popularity rose.

You want to talk about "experience"? I've seen your argument and ultimatum before; I've seen how these disputes turn out; and my experience is telling me that Saryn is on death row. Everything that justified the Ash and Ember nerfs can be applied to Saryn, DE has made it very clear that they're eying her performance, and planning to alter her performance in the interest of balance.

And I've heard no end if the "do it and I quit" ultimatum, as players vastly overestimate their individual value to a company, and are ultimately humbled by the company's response.

Been here, done this. Consider this me attempting to soften the blow for you, because most of us "experienced" players know where this going, and are prepared to weather it. It may take a year or four (RIP Chroma), but it's going to happen. The community has voiced their desire to curb Saryn's potential, the Devs have put her under their microscope and found her flawed, time is the only thing separating Saryn from a nerf.

Sorry bub, but that's how these thing play out. Don't worry too much though; after DE nerfs Saryn into obscurity, it'll only be a year or two before they revisit her to give her a new purpose, or buff her pack to 1/4th of her old potential; just like they did with Mesa, Ash, & Ember.

[kevoisvevo]

On 2020-03-10 at 7:31 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Ever since her latest rework, I noticed a lot of people playing Warframes like Frost or Inaros complaining about Saryns damage output. Specifically "Spores" and "Miasma" are the abilities that draw jealousy.

It should be quite obvious to anyone, that simply tweaking the numbers will not satisfy these people (unless the numbers are literally to small to kill level 5 Corpus), seeing as the recent Miasma nerf went unnoticed by them, and did nothing to dissuade further complaints.

The only logical solution is then, to remove any damage from these abilities and replace it with utility. Thankfully there are several kinds of utility entirely absent from Saryns kit, making this undertaking quite easy. Two of my favorites:

• Damage reduction. Many Warframes can achieve 90% damage reduction, and possibly even confer this benefit to other Warframes and objectives. Of course Saryn is entirely incapable of anything comparable. A golden opportunity to replace damage - Miasma: Afflicts foes in a 20 m radius with the Viral status effect, while allies receive 70% damage reduction for 30 seconds.
• Slowing enemies, bonus resources. Quite valuable support, provided by a number of Warframes. Candidate for replacing Spores functionality. Spores: Plant fast growing spores on enemies, slowing them by 30%. After 3 seconds the spores bloom into an additional loot drop, and spread to targets within 16 m.

Of course there are many more possibilities. From healing allies, to dropping energy orbs, restoring shields, crowd control, providing status immunity, increases to attack/reload speed, blocking attacks and countless other examples of utility, brought to the table by other Warframes.

Feedback forum

[Shy0]

look, some frames will be better than others at doing certain things in certain game modes. op justifies nerfing saryn because tank/defense frames can't do the damage a nuke frame does. automatic no from me. git gud or play another frame if seeing damage numbers is your priority. you chose a tank/defense frame and want to complain about the existence of damage dealers? like, wtf?

saryn can't scale infinitely in game modes where mobs disappear between waves and where it's quicker to just run and kill with weapons. if anything, saryn is, to me, the perfect example of a frame excelling at a certain role (nuking constant mob spawns in confined areas). sure, it might get a bit boring for everyone else, but i'm completely happy if a saryn pops into ESO and wants to do all the menial work while i can still focus on tougher mobs, nullifiers or eximus units. stop complaining and just let people have their fun. stop with this stupid nerf mentality.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Shy0

[selig_fay]

16 minutes ago, Shy0 said:

look, some frames will be better than others at doing certain things in certain game modes. op justifies nerfing saryn because tank/defense frames can't do the damage a nuke frame does. automatic no from me. git gud or play another frame if seeing damage numbers is your priority. you chose a tank/defense frame and want to complain about the existence of damage dealers? like, wtf?

my trinity, which does more than 30% of the team’s damage almost constantly, says that tanks and support have no problems with damage. My Inaros with dog and mecha mods only confirm this. Wuclone says hello.

I do not mind if de nerf weapons, but then nuckers should get nerf protection, because it is not normal when rangedps have tank armor. 

But here, in fact, the global problem is still exploring in the form of the fact that tanks, DPS and support work independently. This is a mythical balance that does not exist. And I think that this is based on the problem of the energy system, because saryn is not strong if you use only energy orbs.

Edited March 13, 2020 by zhellon

[Shy0]

33 minutes ago, zhellon said:

my trinity, which does more than 30% of the team’s damage almost constantly, says that tanks and support have no problems with damage. My Inaros with dog and mecha mods only confirm this. Wuclone says hello.

I do not mind if de nerf weapons, but then nuckers should get nerf protection, because it is not normal when rangedps have tank armor. 

But here, in fact, the global problem is still exploring in the form of the fact that tanks, DPS and support work independently. This is a mythical balance that does not exist. And I think that this is based on the problem of the energy system, because saryn is not strong if you use only energy orbs.

i was just railing against op's nonsense logic. i have no problem with anyone getting whatever % damage with anything as long as we complete the mission. if we all had fun, all the better. if some of us had less fun, either figure it out or just accept that with rng and randomness and life in general, one can't have fun all the time. asking game devs to nerf something just because you chose a certain path but others are having more fun or getting bigger numbers is petty.

[IMP_102]

2 hours ago, Shy0 said:

i was just railing against op's nonsense logic. i have no problem with anyone getting whatever % damage with anything as long as we complete the mission. if we all had fun, all the better. if some of us had less fun, either figure it out or just accept that with rng and randomness and life in general, one can't have fun all the time. asking game devs to nerf something just because you chose a certain path but others are having more fun or getting bigger numbers is petty.

That is pretty selfish point of view though. The issue here is not really that people having fun or not, the issue here is that if you want to create a semblance of progression in a game making challenging content is important, but how to balance that content when a frame like Saryn can mop the floor with pretty much anaything? Baseline the content on Saryn and no other frame will be able to compete. I mean how many frames can really reliably push zone 8 in ESO solo? Mirage maybe? Ember could probably if it weren't for that 4th ability gating. Did DE even intend for ESO to be playeable solo?

I mean look at the state of the game, why bother using CC or support when you can just play with half a brain off and still have enemies disolve a football field away. Nukers are getting nerfed bacause it is the best thing for promoting a diverse gameplay and a long term health of the game.

[selig_fay]

@Shy0 Well, it can be called as "rebuild things", not a nerf. I don’t think that a thin character who can blow up 50 meters of the map is an op, because you need a team or the ability (as player) to avoid damage in order to win. But even if we don’t talk about protection, I don’t think that the ability to explode 50 meters of the map is strong if it has a long cd (maybe 2 minutes). 

I'm talking only about miasma, spores is fine, because it's gameplay.

Yes, we have energy, but energy is a limiter only for weak frames, because de can not imagine how the energy system works now. This makes me think that maybe saryn is fine and the problem is only in the energy system. But saryn has armor. And mesa has 95% dr against shells. It annoys me.

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by zhellon

[selig_fay]

@Vharu Your whole answer is ruined because saryn has a damage buff for weapons. 2 damage buff if you are using a augment. And I'm sure that I can kill profit taker very easily, because damage buff and nuck. Frey, on the other hand, does not matter here because you can use amesha for protection during the shield stage and vazarin for protection during the archgun call.

What about 9999 lvl? DE never worried about it. But saryn can easily reach 1000. Inaros will have problems in defeanse with these levels, saryn, like all frames, has shieldgate now.

[selig_fay]

@Vharu I played saryn with 40% strength, long duration, range and defense with rage. And I did not feel any problems with the output of the damage. Maybe this is the problem.

[IMP_102]

40 minutes ago, Vharu said:

She is a DPS Warframe, with a niche practical application, that does not have the ability to dominate where other warframes do. She does not need a nerf, her thing is clearing small rooms at mid-tier content and eso. The problem is, mid-tier content is populated alot by mid-tier players who have never seen a level 9,999 and probably rarely if ever tried profit taker - in otherwords, in the main, those who call for Saryn nerfs really have no clue as to what the higher-tier challenges are in Warframe that she simply cannot particpate and survive in. 

That's like the whole point. Don't you see the problem with your own answer, a frame that single-handedly ruins a game mode while being useless everywhere else. It basically screams bad design.

And lvl 9999 yeah that's rich, the whole reason we were stuck with the infinite leveling armor up till now was because the initial game design didn't consider enemies above lvl 70 or there about. DE just never prevented players from going that high. Anything above lvl 160 ish is not high tier content it just an exercise in how much one can break the game.

[Shy0]

5 hours ago, IMP_102 said:

That is pretty selfish point of view though. The issue here is not really that people having fun or not, the issue here is that if you want to create a semblance of progression in a game making challenging content is important, but how to balance that content when a frame like Saryn can mop the floor with pretty much anaything? Baseline the content on Saryn and no other frame will be able to compete. I mean how many frames can really reliably push zone 8 in ESO solo? Mirage maybe? Ember could probably if it weren't for that 4th ability gating. Did DE even intend for ESO to be playeable solo?

I mean look at the state of the game, why bother using CC or support when you can just play with half a brain off and still have enemies disolve a football field away. Nukers are getting nerfed bacause it is the best thing for promoting a diverse gameplay and a long term health of the game.

i don't know how you play your game, but the way i play, i have a copy of every frame and a bunch of weapons that i rotate around depending on the mission's needs. i use saryn when i want to clear rooms quickly for the most affinity i can get in a set time (which is more or less what someone at my number of hours would do ESO for). even then, i don't rely completely on just abilities; i still shoot things to spread spores and get the most kills and exp i can. in that sense, she fulfils her niche perfectly. i've never felt the need to challenge myself using ESO so i've never tried to run solo saryn there, but to have a max killing potential build, she has to sacrifice something, and that's often survivability. you go ahead and knock yourself out if you want to solo with saryn, but she's too squishy at higher levels and you're basically just hiding in a corner all the time, waiting for more energy so you can cast abilities. if you find that fun, i won't stop you. i wouldn't take saryn out to the plains or fortuna, or run quick exterminate missions, or try to solo a rank 5 kuva lich, because she's a bit of a liability in a lot of other game modes. saryn is hardly the best choice in many game modes, so claiming that balancing the game on saryn would make all the other frames non-competitive is exaggerating a bit.

if you only play ESO, and ESO is your whole world, that's on you, but you certainly wouldn't represent much of the playerbase in that case. i'd feel like i've progressed more in a game like warframe if i had more tools (frames, mods, weapons) at my disposal to handle all the content that DE throws at us, and that includes ESO nuking, boss fights, space fights, dog fights, etc. and do it well. claiming that saryn is affecting sense of progression by doing well in one game mode is, once again, pushing it. using that claim to justify a popular frame's nerf is not so great.

 

3 hours ago, IMP_102 said:

That's like the whole point. Don't you see the problem with your own answer, a frame that single-handedly ruins a game mode while being useless everywhere else. It basically screams bad design.

And lvl 9999 yeah that's rich, the whole reason we were stuck with the infinite leveling armor up till now was because the initial game design didn't consider enemies above lvl 70 or there about. DE just never prevented players from going that high. Anything above lvl 160 ish is not high tier content it just an exercise in how much one can break the game.

how is having a niche bad design? in any game with a roster of characters/suits/archetypes, there are always roles or niches that a specific player-chosen character plays. saryn's just happens to be killing stuff in limited spaces (she works well on star chart defense-type missions too, not just ESO), and warframe happens to be a game where you kill lots of stuff by teaming up with other people (or solo if you choose). it's not even like you're competing for drops or rewards by killing the most. if every frame could do everything just as well as any other, what's the point in having nearly 40 different frames in a 99% pve game? (sidetrack: jeez, just realised that's a lot of frames..)

re high level enemies: just like how much you enjoy ESO, some people like to do endurance runs and find the best builds to go as far as they can. figuring out synergies and getting the biggest numbers possible by using the game's systems is how they enjoy the game. it takes a fair bit of dedication and knowledge, and that's their idea of "challenging content", so stop telling others how they should play their game.

[selig_fay]

@Vharu I didn't say anything about the augments I put in this build. And I did tests on how strong saryn can be in the most disgusting build. In the end, you only need 3 mods to complete 8 ESO waves in a solo. This is Overextended, health and rage. Yes, you need a melee weapon with the ability to heal yourself, but the fact is , only 3 mods for the frame for content that is intended only for groups .

Heh, can be someone will do this with 0 mods? That would be fun.

Edited March 13, 2020 by zhellon

[IMP_102]

6 hours ago, Vharu said:

Don't you see the problem with your own answer? Even after the armor changes Saryn still is not getting to level 1000 let alone 9,999. And saying level 9,999 is not "rich" - many youtube vids are showcasing this benchmark now since the armor changes... its more common than you think.

What is the problem with my answer? Why would we even care if Saryn can or cannot reach lvl 1000 when lvl 160 is what the intended game design more or less is. There is a dedicated part of the community that challenges itself on finding ways to push the game to the limit and they pick the best tools for that, and more power to them. We are talking about the core of the game, where a large portion of the community plays, that the place where Saryn is broken as hell.

[IMP_102]

1 hour ago, Shy0 said:

how is having a niche bad design? in any game with a roster of characters/suits/archetypes, there are always roles or niches that a specific player-chosen character plays. saryn's just happens to be killing stuff in limited spaces (she works well on star chart defense-type missions too, not just ESO), and warframe happens to be a game where you kill lots of stuff by teaming up with other people (or solo if you choose). it's not even like you're competing for drops or rewards by killing the most. if every frame could do everything just as well as any other, what's the point in having nearly 40 different frames in a 99% pve game? (sidetrack: jeez, just realised that's a lot of frames..)

it's bad because there is no diversity. Sure there are 40 choices, but if these choices are viable in their niche and nowhere else, that is an issue.

2 hours ago, Shy0 said:

re high level enemies: just like how much you enjoy ESO

Where did you get that idea, I hate SO and ESO with a passion, ever since I farmed Khora there when she came out. If you got there with anything but Saryn then enemies die the moment they spawn and you don't get to do anything, and if you go there as a Saryn .... well it is the same except you do get to nuke occasionally. That's pretty much where my conviction that Saryn in it's current state is a garbage frame comes from.

 

2 hours ago, Shy0 said:

some people like to do endurance runs and find the best builds to go as far as they can. figuring out synergies and getting the biggest numbers possible by using the game's systems is how they enjoy the game. it takes a fair bit of dedication and knowledge, and that's their idea of "challenging content", so stop telling others how they should play their game.

I most definitely not telling that part of community to stop doing what they are doing, just merely pointing out that reaching lvl 9999 is not a good measure to judge a frame against.

[Xepthrichros]

This whole "lets nerfs things around 1 map or game mode" needs to stop. It's extremely short-sighted. And just because it is YOUR main map or game mode, still DOES NOT mean it is the entire game. I know, revolutionary thinking, but it really isn't. 

16 hours ago, Vharu said:

At least Saryn players accept that they are squishy, and are not calling for a buff to make them more tanky...

So why the hell do Tank frames think its ok to nerf a DPS frame just so their killing ability looks better?

Thats what this is always been about with nerf saryn thread.... Tank players want to be Tank + DPS players, and they can't compete with a pure DPS frame. Well we ain't asking for more armor/health buffing for Saryn, so take your tanks and stop asking to do our job.

Case closed.

Exactly.

When I play Stealth frames, I don't expect to be tanky. I expect management of energy, stealth duration, and/or adapting my movement if I am using Ivara. (people that ask for buffs to stealth frames until they are DPS, or become even half as tanky as Rhino, are really approaching this game the wrong way)

When I play Tank frames, I don't expect to nuke the map, and I expect primarily to not worry about dying. (people that expect tank frames to be the highest damage dealer at the same, again, have issues understanding this game.

When I play DPS frames, I expect to kill enemies before they are close enough to get a shot off at me, because the DPS frame generally is not as tanky to take too many hits. (and anyone asking for a DPS frame to have the same tankiness as Inaros, again has issues comprehending different warframe designs and developer intention)

Different frames, different approaches. Different niches

That being said, because I am bored with the enemy designs right now, I go out of my way and the game's intended designs of each frame, to do the most damage while using a stealth frame or tank frame, via adjusting builds, and making up for the lack of kit-given DPS, by simply playing faster and running ahead of the pack. Thus with the right build or depending on the enemy level, and also depending on the skill of the other players in the team, I've actually lost count of how many times I out-DPSed Saryns and Equinoxes. Again for personal entertainment, since the enemies themselves are currently not interesting to be entertaining inherently, but I do not bemoan when it turns out an actual DPS-intended frame does more damage than me, because that player is then actually playing their frame as designed, with a decent level of skill.

9 hours ago, IMP_102 said:

t's bad because there is no diversity. Sure there are 40 choices, but if these choices are viable in their niche and nowhere else, that is an issue.

Stop with the fake diversity. 40 frames with a copy of single target nuke, some sort of tanking ability, some sort of heal, aoe nuke, is not diversity. It's just reskins of the same skill set with different flavors. And if you all had your way with the nerfs/reworks, every warframe will end up looking this way.  Just look at the topic creator's opening post, it's a proposal to change Saryn into a reskin of Nekros and Nova, combining aspects of their skills to replace Saryn's kit. That's not new gameplay. That's reusing old mechanics, just giving them new looks. Extend such rework logic to all frames and there will be no room for interesting mechanics like Limbo immortal rift plane, or Ivara forever stealth, Wisp free stealth in air, Grendel instant delete by eating, infinite duration Celestial Twin, Speedy AF Cloudwalker, etc. Why? Because, the goal post will keep shifting, people who whine about Spores mechanic being OP today, will move to the next most OP thing once Spores hits the nerf bucket. Probably first going down the list of other DPS mechanics, then later shifting to OP tanking and stealth mechanics (though, I have been around here long enough to have seen people already ask for nerfs on certain stealth and tank and mobility mechanics even though they have not yet killed Spores)

But some people would want everyone to play one way and no other way else. In the name of pseudo-diversity. If all frames are good at all things, then in reality there is no point getting any of that 40 because just getting 1 can carry you through the whole game. Why bother farming or even saying this game has progression at that point? 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Xepthrichros

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

19 hours ago, Vharu said:

Just because you say it will happen, doesn't make it fact. Oh and you think just because pablo said it will happen you think it will also? Well how long ago was that said? Things change, plans change... it's not nerfed until it is, so stop pretending it is set it stone. 

Doesn't matter how many Warframes you mention, none of them will compare to the negative blow back that will come from nerfing Saryn. Changing Saryn effects not just how I use her and mod her, but my entire arsenal that is customized around her abilities, augments and damage types. Changing Saryn results in changing my rather expensive arcanes, custom zaw, wasted umbra formas, wasted time of focus tree, wasted time on specific damage type kuva weapon. 

It is a very sensitive and synergistic build that starts with Saryn being the way she is - changing her fks up months of time and work as I will have to change my entire load out. I pay money and plan ahead how I want the warframe/weapon synergy to work out. Yes I main Saryn, and throw even more money into custom skins.

I'm not the type of player that wants to use 10 different Warframes and swapping and changing stuff around all the time. I find what I can make work best for me, and I stick to it. I have NO interest at all in relearning and re-investing into another Warframe that results in getting nerfed. 

This is a bigger issue than Nerfing Saryn, it is about the decisions to steal players time and effort by making something that was viable for that time and effort (and money), and making it into something that they otherwise would not of invested into. I made a thread about this a while ago... Sure, nerf something that is only recently introduced into the game, but DONT screw players over by nerfing things that have long been a part of the game and thus integrated into their change-sensitive builds/playstyle. 

My money, clan and time is walking out the door if they nerf Saryn, because I can't justify from then on with investing anything more into a result that gets undercut and robbed. 

THERE SHOULD BE A FINITE OPPORTUNITY TO NERF SOMETHING THAT HAS RECENTLY BEEN INTRODUCED LIVE INTO THE GAME - None of this nerfing of anything that has a long standing already. That is the point! - Doing such severely diminishes confidence that anything you do in the game is a waste of time as progress and output is at risk of being withdrawn from you. 

New weapon or warframe that after a few weeks is showing balance problems? Fine nerf it.... but not something that has long been around and has already established A FOUNDATION that players have built upon it. It's not just about nerfing one ability or a warframe, its about messing with total arsenal setups and playstyles that something is an integral part of. 

That is what pisses a player base off, and the only ones who seem so cavalier about it are those that were never really invested as much to begin with. 

You my friend, are in for a rude awakening. The classic saying among Tenno is "Don't get attached to anything, because it's all due to change at some point" for a reason. Welcome to Warframe.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

Dear old Saryn: The iconic nuke frame since time immemorial.

The issue? Some outspoken members of the WF community want her nerfed, and many members of the community want her to remain functionally the same.

 

While I understand the concerns of both camps, I have to admit, ghat I sympathize with the "pro-nerf" sect a bit more than I do the "anti-nerf" sect. Part of my support stems from a reluctance to handle doomed frames/weapons; a foretold doom which is due to Pablo's announced intentions to rework the Warframe (so it's going to happen at some point), as well as Miasma's recent stealth proc duration nerf going completely under the community's radar (which means it failed to achieve the desired effect; and DE is going to have to escalate their efforts from here on out).

The writing is on the wall. The a Saryn we have today isn't going to last. So in order to curb the dread and get the ball rolling preemptively, I thought I'd pitch some ideas out there for a Saryn Revision. 

A summary of my thought process henceforth: Saryn is presently a nuker Warframe who's use is generally limited to ESO & Defense mission types; in these roles, she excels by a hysterical margin. While her base defensive stats do come across as formidable, and certain builds can adequately tank her out, Saryn's greatest limitation is her squishiness. Because of her lacking EHP & recovery, Saryn doesn't weather lategame enemy DPS very well. This pigeonholes her into a early to mid-late game nuker. While recent alterations to her ability Augments have added hysterically high single target DPS to her repertoire of feats, it is sadly limited to corrosive & toxic status, which achieves lackluster performance on targets that demand high single DPS, such as Eidolons, Liches, & Orb Mothers (These are all due to change as well, but I don't foresee Saryn making the team pick for Tri-Caps for her ability to boost the team's Corrosive DPS).

So rather than propose a flat nerf, or even a total disavowal of her nuking capabilities, I thought it best to seek out a compromise.

The design philosophy is stated thusly; Saryn retains the ability to nuke; the frequency of her nuking will mechanically moderated, so that nuke spam ceases to be a no-fun fest for those inclined to deviate from the meta and still enroll in Pubs. In compensation for the loss of her nuke spam, Saryn gains a massive increases to her EHP and Recovery; while simultaneously benefiting from a far more powerful nuke. These measures will improve her impact in late game, while expanding her mission application beyond ESO & Defense.

To increase the likelihood of developer implementation, as well as to retain a degree of familiarity with her current playstyle, Saryn's kit will remain thematically and mechanically identical to the current issue. A few tweaks, some additions, and restrictions aside, my proposed Saryn will seem very familiar.

So for starters, let talk about a fundamental shift in basic design: beginning with base stats & passive ability.

1.) Boost Saryn's base health to 350; reduce her base Energy to 0.

2.) Saryn's passive ability is expanded; her abilities no longer consume energy to be cast, but instead draw directly from her health pool (Similar to how Hildryn expends Shields to cast her Abilities). A passive health regeneration of 13 health per 1.5 seconds is added to partially compensate for the shift.

This will alleviate the need to mod for Energy, freeing up Mod slots for more EHP 

Now moving on to Abilities, starting with the meat of the meat and potatoes: Spores.

3.) Spores receive a damage scaling cap; preventing damage per tick from exceeding a certain threshold. In return for this restriction, Saryn gains a health regeneration bonus based on a percentage of the damage spores deal per tick; simultaneously, Saryn also gains an inclining maximum health bonus based on the amount of enemies infected by spores. Enemies that die while infected by spores leave behind a lingering cloud that infects any enemies it contacts with spores; Spore's gauge does not begin to deteriorate until the Spore Cloud has completely dissipated. Power Duration increases the Duration of the Cloud, while Power Range effects its radius; the scaling cap can be increased with Power Strength mods. Beyond the lingering Cloud addition, Spores mechanically spread and function as they currently do.

I.E. the more damage spores deal, the more health Saryn regenerates; the more enemies infected by spores, the higher Saryn's maximum health becomes. This will vastly increase Saryn's durability, by giving her health regeneration scaling overtime and max health population scaling, while the Cloud simultaneously makes it easier to maintain Spore's decay, and the damage cap limits Spore's DPS potential. 

4.) Molt becomes Saryn primary nuke skill. Molt's detonation radius is dramatically increased, and its base damage is similarly increased. To top it off, Molt's Damage is calculated by it's total Health. The Molt's Health is in turn, adjusted by Saryn's Current Max Health, as well as its current health to enemy DPS during post-cast I-Frames. The Molt's explosion damage is determined by its CURRENT Health. Manually detonating the Molt while it retains the majority of its Health will result in a smaller, weaker explosion; Allowing the Molt to detonate naturally through Health Depletion will achieve it's maximum range and damage. A cooldown is added to Molt to prevent it from being Spammed. Mechanically, Molt functions identical to the current issue.

I.E. This redesign of Molt allows Saryn to drop a significantly bigger bomb with multiple layers of scaling, though this stupidly powerful nuke will be mechanically restricted to prevent nuke spam. A simple Synergy between Spores is introduced, as Spores can be used to increase Saryn's maximum health, which in turn, increase the health/damage of Molt. Corrosive procs from Spores can also soften armored mobs up prior to detonation, further rewarding patience, as time spent building up the boom simultaneously weakens targets within the kill box.

5.) Toxic Lash. This skill requires no adjustment, and works quite nicely with Saryn's proposed changes.

6.) Miasma. Damage is dramatically reduced, though Viral procs now stack overtime and stagger animation persists throughout Miasma's Duration. Damage done to CC'd enemies is added to Molt's Max Damage curve. Mechanically, Miasma retains its Synergy with Spore-Spread.

I.E. Miasma becomes CC with Scaling Over Time debuff, while aiding in the Spread of Spores. Simultaneously, it compensates for reducing the DPS Molt suffers by altering Molt's damage scaling from "Damage Taken" to "Damage Dealt". This, combined with the stacking Viral Procs, should permit for some degree of premature Molt Detonation, though the most powerful Molt Bombs will ultimately be the ones that are boosted by Spores & Miasma before burning their entire fuse.

7.) Regenerating Molt Aug: Adjusted to function similarly to Trinity's 1st: The Molt releases healing pulses over time; the more damage the Molt takes between pulses, the more powerful the succeeding healing pulse becomes.

8.) Toxic Lash's Aug: Lingering Clouds generated by Toxic Lash kills are adjusted to spread spores.

And that about covers my proposal. Saryn doesn't get nerfed into obscurity, and she doesn't lose the ability to nuke spam without receiving some serious compensation in the bulk and max damage potential departments. She ends up playing like Day Equinox or Absorb Nyx; the Nuke isn't immediately accessible, but it is ridiculously powerful, and Saryn is tanky enough to weather abuse till the time is right for the boom. 

Counter ideas or expansions are welcomed; post your thoughts in comments!
 

 

[Hellmaker2004]

53 minutes ago, (XB1)Vile Slanders said:

Boost Saryn's base health to 350; reduce her base Energy to 0.

Edited, i was a bit premature.

No, you simply want a new frame.

Saryn is fine when compared to other nukers, she got advantages and disadvantages. Like all Frames

Edited March 14, 2020 by Hellmaker2004

[Traumtulpe]

An interesting Idea, but I'd really prefer Molt not being changed at all.

It is just a good and fun ability, unique in a way, without standing out too much.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

20 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Edited, i was a bit premature.

No, you simply want a new frame.

Saryn is fine when compared to other nukers, she got advantages and disadvantages. Like all Frames

No, I don't want a new frame. I could totally live without a new frame. Grendel was a new low, and Gauss is just miserable to play. I do not want a new frame.

Disadvantage vs. Advantage is pretty vague and frail argument, which seems to deny the elephant in the room: When DE gets around to finally reworking Saryn, how is that argument going to secure your interests? Pablo already stated that she's over performing, and he's planning to rework her when production slows down a notch at DE. 
 

Just putting it out there, but the Saryn you know isn't here to stay. I'd rather contribute to the design process, instead of trying to deny it.