Currently Nekros = Play Less for More Loot

[Grav_Starstrider]

I would like it if Nekros' whole kit didn't consist of playing the game less, for more loot.
1: "let me ragdoll things over cliffs or towards another warframe to deal with"
2: "let me scare everything away so I don't have to worry about them"
3: "let me have more loot"
4: "let minions fight for me"
All conflicting with a passive that says "make nearby deaths heal me".

CC scales infinitely, inherently, as it locks down the more potent 100+ level enemies as well as it does a level 10 enemy, so with his kit of 2 CC abilities and 1 that provides distraction to the enemy and also relatively scaling damage (still arguably CC), it's not like he does horribly at high levels. I just know that for myself and many others, he's just the "quintessential loot-frame that's not horribly fun to actively play". If you were considering a rework or touch-up for Nekros, I'd propose the following.

As his health-restoration passive is largely redundant when desecrate exists, you could replace it with something that turns his Shadows of the Dead and his Terrify into a new passive, or sub-effects of his damaging abilities.
Passive: Ability kills spawn Shadows of the Dead to aid you, and sends nearby foes running in terror. Kill more to restore their health and replace with minions of higher levels and capabilities.
Add an Exalted Great-Scythe (I picture Death/War's Scythes from Darksiders tbh) and a sub-ability for the scythe to replace the two abilities, in the way slash dash is a sub-ability for Exalted Blade.

This would give Nekros players a reason and reward for far more actively engaging in combat, as it's the engaging in combat that fuels your army of minions. If you wanted, instead of making the passive be so long-winded, you could roll the Terrify effect into the great-scythe ability, so that when he wields his SCYTHE OF DEATH it sends enemies in hysterics. Keeping Terrify's augment associated with this ability would create a good synergy too. Alternatively, throw it onto the sub-ability for the exalted scythe. There's a LOT of different ways you could move around his current abilities, augments, and something new like an Exalted Scythe, to make Nekros a far more engaging Warframe. To me, currently his 1 feels like a boring "ragdoll button" with a far-too-steep drawback on it's augment, his 2 feels like it's only a panic button, his 3 is his main appeal and draw and makes his passive redundant, and his 4 doesn't foster very active, interactive/proactive gameplay. Community, let me know what you think (you can always suggest your own combination of preferred ability reworks, like if you think his 1 and 2 should be rolled together to make room for the exalted weapon, and keeping Shadows of the Dead as is, whatever you prefer. Keep it more constructive than "nah" 😛).

I really appreciate it if you consider giving him a touch-up and a reason for us to use him besides for the looting, DE. Thanks!

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I agree Nekros need more than just "I can use my 3" ppl keep saying he`s good coz of his 3 and rate him A tier because of it which I think is stupid.

I also have some ideas to improve his abilities here is the post. (skip to nekros)

 

[Methanoid]

to be honest i have only ever used his desecrate, his shadows while useful i find just get in the way....of everything, everyone and become an annoyance blocking all those good old bullets and explodey things from you and teammates, augmented up, creeping terrify can be pretty useful at times and i think he can slow more than nova, but nova can explode all the things while also slowing mobs.

Due to this, i pretty much forget he even has 1,2 and 4.

[Grav_Starstrider]

Well, DE just touched up Nekros' 1 to be an "Execution" ability, that also synergizes with Shadows of the Dead. So whether they read this post or not, it almost feels like they at least half-listened. I still personally feel like Nekros' kit is really self-fighting though. Since it's still 2.5 keep-away CC abilities that are at odds with his passive, which is redundant to his other ability. I still feel like it'd be neat to amp up Nekros' direct kill-power so that there was a reason you'd ever benefit from his passive....

DE, can you give Nekros' 1 the Gara design? Tap for directional projectile, hold to Reap across with a Great-Scythe? I'd find it extra-cool if it took a snapshot of the health of enemies in the path of the scythe upon button-release, and added the remaining health of sub-10%-health-remaining-enemies to the Scythe's damage output. Maybe also catch the last 10% of health values for any enemies killed with the swing of the Scythe as damage as it swings across the enemies? That way, if his Shadows (or any other source of damage in this game) have softened up a small group, Nekros could finish them off. (And by using both the snapshot option and the mid-swing damage collection, you're less screwed over by RNG regarding whether the scythe swings from the left, or the right, and aren't overall screwed over by the 10% or less health enemies being in the center of the group, causing the entire first half of your Scythe swing to be ineffective).

To ensure that's not a new contender against Saryn's Spores for "Most OP ability that only costs 25 energy to cast", they could make the hold-to-cast Scythe cost 50 energy at base. If we're already holding to cast anyways though, maybe holding the scythe longer can increase the arc and/or radius of the Scythe, up to 100 energy for a full 360 degree sweep? Could just be a two-stage, so that there's less uncertainty about how much energy it'd take, and it can allow the time between starting the hold and the casting of the fully charged sweep to be more quick, rather than a slow incremental thing you're trying to micromanage.

TBH that wishful thinking sounds like it'd really belong more as a rework of Terrify. Rework Terrify to be the above-described Scythe ability (not an Exalted Greatscythe) that causes enemies to be Terrified with the reduced armor and such upon a successful Execution with his 1 or 2. Then the augment could guarantee the Terrify effect upon cast, regardless of successful executions or not. Or as a bonus, guaranteed minimum Terrify effect, but with bonus range/duration/armor-stripping per executed enemy.

And as my previous post said, there are lots of ways these things could be shuffled around. I think making any of Nekros' damaging abilities be able to natively spawn/heal Shadows of the Dead, or Terrify foes, or mark them for their corpses to have a chance at dropping additional loot, would be neat, more engaging Passives to bestow upon him, in exchange for the ability to be replaced with a more engaging damage output option.

Hmmm. Or instead of changing anything, maybe DE could just let us hold-to-charge Terrify into a 100-cost Scythe-reap that performs some of the above-discussed features, in addition to performing its original purpose as Terrify? As I said. Options abound. I just find his Passive to be counterintuitive or redundant to his entire kit, and all 3 of his abilities that aren't Desecrate are all at odds with Desecrate. Just completely unintuitive in his ability's and passive's designs. I guess if DE wanted to make his passive make more sense, they should make his other abilities innately have bonus effectiveness within that effective radius. To encourage Nekros to wade into the fray, Terrifying his enemies, Soul Punching, Desecrating, and having his army of Shadows of the Dead charging right into the thick of battle. So Nekros' passive could be "Within x-meter's radius, Nekros' abilities are more potent, and enemy deaths heal him".

[Andele3025]

So, before SP trashxecute nerf, the actual point of 1 was its range variable cc portion, at range or higher elevation you ragdoll high priority threats, up close you knockdown for melee control (and why i really wish DE listened to the test feedback, to give him instead a reliable ability scaling damage on SP). Terrify needs to just have its augment baked in and armor strip instead placed on augment and buffed to be a resistance strip (full applicable aka to all types not just hp like atlas petrify); however thats more because terrify hinders allies gameloop options rather than bonepapa himself (its a fear from point, not "fear from nekros", thus absolutely no impact on nekros himself as he already wants 60%+ slash or innate dismember heavy weapons which are melee or close range except for dread, akstis miter and panthera).

Personally the bigger issue with his passive for me is that its win more with no real benefit when desecrate already does that job while also enabling more modding options, id rather see it it be "damage dealt to enemies in 10m of nekros has 0.5% lifesteal (for all tenno)".

Augment to replace SotD into Deaths Reaper form would be great too; or even better as you noted replacement for SotD with SotD then being the augment option to spawn them on kill while in reaper form or in place of it.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Andele3025

[Lutesque]

On 2020-04-02 at 3:02 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

I agree Nekros need more than just "I can use my 3" ppl keep saying he`s good coz of his 3 and rate him A tier because of it which I think is stupid.

It's a looting game..having the ability to generate more loot is a Valid Criteria for Tier List Rating isn't it ?

 

[sunderthefirmament]

Yeah, he needs help.  I wish they'd flat out remove his shadows and replace it with an ability that's less disruptive to other players.  Or they could make the shadows completely invisible to you if you have chosen the option to reduce allied vfx.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

13 hours ago, Lutesque said:

It's a looting game..having the ability to generate more loot is a Valid Criteria for Tier List Rating isn't it ?

 

Yes but a warframe needs to have more then one useful ability and Nekros needs to do more than just loot, he has other abilities besides his 3. This is a game after all and is meant to be fun, yes his 3 is useful but is it fun? for me it is not.

[Andele3025]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Yes but a warframe needs to have more then one useful ability and Nekros needs to do more than just loot, he has other abilities besides his 3. This is a game after all and is meant to be fun, yes his 3 is useful but is it fun? for me it is not.

He is. His entire kit was fun (to me) before the trashxecute was added, with it its merely down to 3/4.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Andele3025

[Lutesque]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Yes but a warframe needs to have more then one useful ability and Nekros needs to do more than just loot, he has other abilities besides his 3. This is a game after all and is meant to be fun, yes his 3 is useful but is it fun? for me it is not.

I totally agree.... However... The thirst for loot is so Strong that apparently he gets a free pass on being a one trick pony.

 

[TheMostFrench]

Yeah I agree that Desecrate is never going to be unpopular because the game is about loot, and I think that's why DE gave some loot powers to other frames as well. Khora's Pilfering Strangledome is similar but is CC and bonus loot rolled into one, same for Hydron.

Suggestions for a more active and aggressive Nekros: He is built around draining enemy souls and performing finishers/executions. Both of these actions buff him, his Shadows, and terrify enemies. The other abilities benefit from this task while also making it easier.

Major changes
- Nekros gets reduced HP from health orbs. Instead he gets HP/regen bonus from a soul punch rework.
- He can perform finishers more quickly, terrified enemies killed by finishers will become Shadows of the Dead, finishers that kill enemies guarantee decapitations for bonus Desecration loot.
~Read on to understand more~

Soul Punch (rework)
- Tap the Soul Punch key to pull in the enemy target soul energy and gain a charge, this drains some of their health. The target doesn't have to die for you to gain soul charges. Has a pretty low energy cost. Total number of charges you can hold grows with ability strength e.g 100% ability strength means 100 souls.

- Finishers of any kind grant soul charges, you can get several charges at once if they die from a finisher.

- You can fire soul charges by holding the ability key (works like a normal soul punch, knocking enemies over).

- The more charges Nekros has the more it increases his max health pool and grants passive health regen.

- Soul charges decay over time. Decay rate is reduced by power duration.

- Soul survivor augment now gives allies more health based on the number of soul charges he has when they are revived (percentage based, but starting from a minimum of 30% so it doesn't make the augment worse)

- A new augment like 'Soul Suck' or 'Soul Reap' reduces the cast range significantly but allows you to pull in soul energy from several enemies at a time (useful if you aren't carrying a melee weapon and can't perform finishers).

Terrify
- Some terrified enemies become too scared to move and will be open to finishers.

- The terrify effect can be spread around a little when Nekros performs finishers near other enemies who aren't terrified yet (these enemies won't be frozen in terror, though).

- Increased power range means enemies will be terrified by finishers from further away.

- Terrify has diminishing returns when cast, but not for the terror effect of finishers. Keep your terror-frozen victims alive for longer and execute them to maintain ongoing terror among others with no reduction.

- An augment to disarm enemies who become frozen in terror (think of the Grineer in the Nekros Prime trailer who drops his gun then can't do anything but stare at Nekros)

Desecrate
- I don't think this needs to change much, except it should drain health by default, because Nekros is already designed around getting health passively. The augment should make it use energy instead.

- The guaranteed finisher decapitations and enemies frozen in terror gives Nekros a reason to use other abilities and fight to gain even more loot.

Shadows of the Dead
- Enemies you kill with finishers will become Shadows

- Existing Shadows gain bonus damage when they see Nekros perform a finisher.
 

[protecttheplanet]

Dont agree. Not every frame needs to be an actively enganging one. 

Nekros is more of a support. Not every frame needs to be a (dmg) carry

[(PSN)Vexx757]

14 hours ago, Lutesque said:

I totally agree.... However... The thirst for loot is so Strong that apparently he gets a free pass on being a one trick pony.

Ik which is why I think it`s stupid. Idc how good one ability is, all the other abilities have to be good.

Another example is Ash b4 the nerf ppl loved Ash but ever since the nerf he is one of the least used warframe so basically one ability change (bladestorm) cause a divide between player, one of the most controversial frame to talk about and ppl (like me) not liking bs anymore. If Ash 4 and Nekros` 3 were to be removed their usability will fall rapidly.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Since a stupid mod messed up my post I will have to write it out her.

Here is what I would to Nekros to make him more enjoyable/useful to play.

Nekros

Spoiler

Passive improvement: Nekros receive 10 health within 15m when enemies are killed.

 

1st ability:

·       An enemy affected by this will be susceptible to critical and status damage.

·       Headshots will deal more damage.

·       Enemy effected can deal no damage to you or allies.

·       Enemies affected by this will visually be transparent that’s shown as an indicator by chosen energy colour.

·       Using this will cause a small ragdoll.

 

2nd ability

·       Decrease energy cost to 50.

·       (Synergy) Casting the 1st ability on an enemy affected by this ability when killed will double the damage and spread fear to enemies in a 15m radius affecting 20% off max enemies affected.

·       Fix: In interception, enemies will still hack the terminal instead of running away.

 

3rd ability:

·       As soon as enemies are killed it will drop loot instantly.

 

4th ability:

·       After animation is done, make them have 5 seconds of invulnerability being able to absorb damage they receive converting it to damage for them.

·       Whatever proc the enemy is affected with before you kill them will make their shadows deal 100% of that damage.

·       Make there be an indicator above their head to discern them from enemies.

·       If you are bleeding out, one of the shadows will prioritise you and sacrifice itself to revive you but Nekros will get whatever health the shadow had before its sacrifice.

·       Healing shadows will cost half the energy.

·       (Synergy) Picking up health orbs from desecrated bodies will heal the shadows and double the health pick up for them. Picking up energy orbs will increase their damage by 400% for 15s. Picked up again can refresh the timer.

 

[Kaiune]

On 2021-01-13 at 5:47 PM, Lutesque said:

It's a looting game..having the ability to generate more loot is a Valid Criteria for Tier List Rating isn't it ?

 

Id agree with you but look at all the loot frames while Nekros has the best in that it covers the most range and is least intrusive on your team, All others are capable of much better damage and more importantly have a more engaging and fun playstyle.  I am not a fan of more exalted weapons but I do like the idea of a peseudo exalted scythe that spins around you closely that does massive damage to those who come close for a short time. Also adding a gore modifier (like ripkas) while terrified would synergize well with desicrate. This would also give you more of a reason to run the augment to keep enemies in melee range and in range of the scythe.  

These changes would make him a top tier loot frame and have more too him than being a drop chance modifier that you can recruit from lfg. Also I like the idea of making the choice of what ability to use helminth on if at all a lot harder. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Kaiune

[SteveCutler]

Exalted great scythe sounds cool.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that all loot abilities should be removed from the game. Why? Because whenever farming something, it feels like you have to use these loot-boosting frames in order to get the most out of it — otherwise you're just being inefficient and making it take even longer. It just feels forced and restrictive. Ammo, health, energy orbs, that's all fine, but no abilities should increase drop rates for resources, mods, etc.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2021-01-11 at 7:51 AM, Grav_Starstrider said:

Darksiders 2

I LOVE THIS GAME. There needs to be games more like this.

[Lutesque]

5 hours ago, Kaiune said:

Id agree with you but look at all the loot frames while Nekros has the best in that it covers the most range and is least intrusive on your team, All others are capable of much better damage and more importantly have a more engaging and fun playstyle. 

Who needs fun when you have more loot ? 😛

I'm just joking... Obviously the state he is now is not ideal... But when it comes to performance he's still High Tier.

2 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

I LOVE THIS GAME. There needs to be games more like this.

Unfortunately Darksiders III didn't quite manage to replicate that experience and instead decided to be another Souls'em Up.  And I've yet to play Darksiders Genesis so can't say if that fits either...

You could try Castlevania Lords Of Shadow 2 (yes... Only the 2nd one)... It's got a Different theme but the Gameplay is Similar.... It's just lacking in more intricate Puzzles.

 

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

Who needs fun when you have more loot ? 😛

I'm just joking... Obviously the state he is now is not ideal... But when it comes to performance he's still High Tier.

He could be in a amazing/ideal state even from just gameloop with minor tweaks since all of the core stuff is there.

Passive turned to universal lifesteal within relatively short range (same idea, but proactive instead of win more)
Instead of trash execute, % max hp damage on soul punch that always dismembers, maybe the knockdown/knockback part turned into a augment that further buffs the damage as most people seem to really have issues for some reason with understanding that it depends on elevation and proximity to enemy; or if they are right infront of a wall in which case just reposition so that one isnt flanking with the wall; with DE equally refusing to add the info to nekros hints)
Terrify slowing baseline while augment gives the damage amp
Desecrate dividing the passive up between all allies in range and its activation energy cost removed/only per corpse cost
Shadows of the Dead given a mandachord style ui that lets players select shadow priority and their AI type to suit playstyles 
(or plain replaced by a exalted massive scythe with 2 augments; one for reaper form/fake decaying hp that gives full halo/iron skin like cc protection; another to return SOTD concept as he summon shadows with no decay of each creature he kills during exalted scythe time when he ends the cast/cancels it)

Edited January 16, 2021 by Andele3025

[Grav_Starstrider]

20 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Exalted great scythe sounds cool.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that all loot abilities should be removed from the game. Why? Because whenever farming something, it feels like you have to use these loot-boosting frames in order to get the most out of it — otherwise you're just being inefficient and making it take even longer. It just feels forced and restrictive. Ammo, health, energy orbs, that's all fine, but no abilities should increase drop rates for resources, mods, etc.

Hard agree. I think they need to make looting abilities and affinity boosters just +x% loot that stack additively, not multiplicatively. You feel like you're wasting boosters if you don't also use a Smeeta and Nekros and have an Ivara and Hydroid/Khora on your team. In that case, they would want to buff up the drop rates at baseline to compensate. They could make the loot-frames be just individual +50% effects and have the "moneymaker" of boosters be whopping +400%, so that people would still be encouraged to buy them. Just less pressured to go all-in on using every single looting option.

I like some of your guy's suggestions and thoughts, there's a lot of small ways that he could be spiced up, or major ways to do a full kit rework! Either/or. Also, I just realized, DE could still rework or replace abilities that people have Subsumed onto other Warframes. Just redeem the infusion cost and allow it to overflow the Helminth Bile (etc) percentages past 100%, if they've changed a Helminth ability to something that users may no longer like on their builds. Just a thought.

[Andele3025]

21 minutes ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Hard agree. I think they need to make looting abilities and affinity boosters just +x% loot that stack additively, not multiplicatively. You feel like you're wasting boosters if you don't also use a Smeeta and Nekros and have an Ivara and Hydroid/Khora on your team. In that case, they would want to buff up the drop rates at baseline to compensate. They could make the loot-frames be just individual +50% effects and have the "moneymaker" of boosters be whopping +400%, so that people would still be encouraged to buy them. Just less pressured to go all-in on using every single looting option.

It is additive. you dont get 4 drops from a pilfer+desecrate, you get base drop+1 potential drop from desecrate and+1 from pilfer tentacles.
What isnt is loot chance (all abilities+drop chance boosters of both resource and mod/endo variety) vs loot amount (aka only the bought resource booster).

Not to mention that DE already """Fixed""" need for loot abilities because a entire category of """extra drops""" doesnt work with them, issue is DE balances drops badly (at least based on general population outcry with release steel path even if IMO for what it was supposed to be vs what it actually ended up being now og version where nothing influenced the drops but how long you're willing to go was actually good for the "test your build on walls of enemies that EXPLICITLY arent end game").

 

[Teridax68]

On 2021-01-15 at 5:42 PM, SteveCutler said:

Exalted great scythe sounds cool.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that all loot abilities should be removed from the game. Why? Because whenever farming something, it feels like you have to use these loot-boosting frames in order to get the most out of it — otherwise you're just being inefficient and making it take even longer. It just feels forced and restrictive. Ammo, health, energy orbs, that's all fine, but no abilities should increase drop rates for resources, mods, etc.

I'm of the exact same opinion regarding loot abilities. I think abilities in general should be about providing gameplay, yet abilities that generate more loot don't do that at all by their very nature -- in fact, they're more metagame abilities, and the only meaningful effect they have on the metagame is restricting frame choices when doing loot-focused runs, and accelerating their process, neither of which I think are ultimately that desirable to players or developers.

With Nekros, there's perhaps at least something going for him with his ability to spawn lots of health orbs, extra ammo, and life support, but at the end of the day there's still a major thematic dissonance with him: he's meant to be a necromancer frame, yet continues to be the game's default loot frame, and if it weren't for his 3 his kit would be mediocre at best (and if it weren't for his augments, his entire kit would be awful). The change to his 1 I don't think has meaningfully improved him when most enemies die too quickly to be executed in that manner, and as the OP mentions, his passive is redundant and weak compared to the health orbs he gets from Desecrate. I think he'd benefit from a rework, and in particular I'd like his 3 to be changed to a corpse explosion ability, e.g. where he could target a corpse or shadow minion to explode for scaling damage and a shower of health+ammo drops.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2021-01-15 at 10:30 PM, Lutesque said:

Unfortunately Darksiders III didn't quite manage to replicate that experience and instead decided to be another Souls'em Up.  And I've yet to play Darksiders Genesis so can't say if that fits either...

You could try Castlevania Lords Of Shadow 2 (yes... Only the 2nd one)... It's got a Different theme but the Gameplay is Similar.... It's just lacking in more intricate Puzzles.

I haven`t played the 3rd one yet, what do you mean "souls`em up? I have played los 1 and 2 both are good games, I wish they did a 3rd one.

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

I haven`t played the 3rd one yet, what do you mean "souls`em up? I have played los 1 and 2 both are good games, I wish they did a 3rd one.

It's a term of heard Mark Brown use in one of his Game Maker's Toolkit Episodes.... It basically means Dark Souls Clone.

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

15 hours ago, Lutesque said:

-snip-

Does it still use combos like D1 and D2?