Now that enemy scaling is fixed, viral and our unbelievable damage output need nerfing?

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You know I’ve been testing me Kuva Nukor and Gram Prime against my usual test. And guess what. They both performed better with corrosive modded on them over Viral.

If Viral was actually OP that wouldn’t be the case now would it.

and may i ask whats your usual test because the gram performs 10x better with slash being that slash and viral work hand and hand along with the S2W Stance every heavy blade has? 

along with the kuva nukor? it would make since the kuva nukor would suit better with corrosive but its also very true that the kuva nukor does better with heat than corrosive and you stack either viral with that (atm in multiple situations viral and heat is just better than corrosive) . but hey just sharing what ive taken in endurance runs brother 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

and may i ask whats your usual test because the gram performs 10x better with slash being that slash and viral work hand and hand along with the S2W Stance every heavy blade has? 

along with the kuva nukor? it would make since the kuva nukor would suit better with corrosive but its also very true that the kuva nukor does better with heat than corrosive and you stack either viral with that (atm in multiple situations viral and heat is just better than corrosive) . but hey just sharing what ive taken in endurance runs brother 

8 level 100 corrupted heavy gunners.

Tho my Nukor test against a single gunner  showed the difference more clearly. With Corrosive it quickly chewed through the gunners health. With Viral it took a big chunk, took a sliver, took a big chunk, took a sliver, etc. Corrosive killed faster. It’s also a heat Nukor.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

8 level 100 corrupted heavy gunners.

Tho my Nukor test against a single gunner  showed the difference more clearly. With Corrosive it quickly chewed through the gunners health. With Viral it took a big chunk, took a sliver, took a big chunk, took a sliver, etc. Corrosive killed faster. It’s also a heat Nukor.

in the simularcrum? where its not the same as a real mission? dude The gram is a viral beast and if you use it past id say an hour 30 in a t4 survival you can feel the damage falloff when you could just bleed them dry. also ive tested nukor in disruption going past round 13-14 the heat and viral outdoes corrosive in every setting as the viral increases the dps so heat procs hit harder and strip armor. corrosive the more expensive elemental) is being outdone by heat and viral and in many cases just heat. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

8 level 100 corrupted heavy gunners.

Tho my Nukor test against a single gunner  showed the difference more clearly. With Corrosive it quickly chewed through the gunners health. With Viral it took a big chunk, took a sliver, took a big chunk, took a sliver, etc. Corrosive killed faster. It’s also a heat Nukor.

in practical missions viral is the best element for pretty much every scenario short of literally a few atm. While i dont mind it being a well versed element. its too strong for it to have such verastility. personally a change in the damage output or the amount of stacks to build up in viral would be fitting 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

in the simularcrum? where its not the same as a real mission? dude The gram is a viral beast and if you use it past id say an hour 30 in a t4 survival you can feel the damage falloff when you could just bleed them dry. also ive tested nukor in disruption going past round 13-14 the heat and viral outdoes corrosive in every setting as the viral increases the dps so heat procs hit harder and strip armor. corrosive the more expensive elemental) is being outdone by heat and viral and in many cases just heat. 

It’s a controlled testing area where I can eliminate variables. If I take it to real mission that introduces dozens of variables that can skew the results in numerous ways making any findings absolutely worthless.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s a controlled testing area where I can eliminate variables. If I take it to real mission that introduces dozens of variables that can skew the results in numerous ways making any findings absolutely worthless.

but its not an accurate way to test how viable a weapon is and what it can do. yes you can control the settings but being a looter shooter and being in such gamemodes where things like aincents spawn the scailing of enemies being different in the simularcrim vs in actual missions and also many other factos gives the simulacrum little credability for practial use.

a test in the simulacrum is under an absolutley perfect scenario which the user can control. under a horde based shooter where mobs are randomly spawned and there are different types with different abilities.

That does no true justice to the weapon. and it dosent really show what the weapons full potental can do. 

do me a favor bro spend an 2 hours with a viral gram prime in mot vs a corrosive and you'll see the difference 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

but its not an accurate way to test how viable a weapon is and what it can do. yes you can control the settings but being a looter shooter and being in such gamemodes where things like aincents spawn the scailing of enemies being different in the simularcrim vs in actual missions and also many other factos gives the simulacrum little credability for practial use.

a test in the simulacrum is under an absolutley perfect scenario which the user can control. under a horde based shooter where mobs are randomly spawned and there are different types with different abilities.

That does no true justice to the weapon. and it dosent really show what the weapons full potental can do. 

do me a favor bro spend an 2 hours with a viral gram prime in mot vs a corrosive and you'll see the difference 

How is testing the same weapon against the same enemy under unchanging scenarios inaccurate? In normal missions you have to deal with numerous types of enemies with different defense value and even enemy buffer units that effect the defenses of other enemies. 
If I just want to know a basic TTK for a weapon the only thing that I want to change from test to test is the weapon build.
I can’t go saying Viral is op because a viral build can kill a level 1 lancer faster than a corrosive built can kill a level 100 gunner that’s under the effects of an ancient healer.

There are aspects of gameplay that the Simulcrum doesn’t accurately represent, but we’re not here to discuss enemies and the effects they have on each other. We’re here to discuss weapons and their damage types.

And for that you need a test that you have control over.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

How is testing the same weapon against the same enemy under unchanging scenarios inaccurate? In normal missions you have to deal with numerous types of enemies with different defense value and even enemy buffer units that effect the defenses of other enemies. 
If I just want to know a basic TTK for a weapon the only thing that I want to change from test to test is the weapon build.
I can’t go saying Viral is op because a viral build can kill a level 1 lancer faster than a corrosive built can kill a level 100 gunner that’s under the effects of an ancient healer.

There are aspects of gameplay that the Simulcrum doesn’t accurately represent, but we’re not here to discuss enemies and the effects they have on each other. We’re here to discuss weapons and their damage types.

And for that you need a test that you have control over.

Because of the way the game is. in normal missions (which is the average mission) you dont control these variables. TTK cant be accurate in the simularcrum because again its under the Perfect conditions. in a looter shooter that would almost never be the norm vs going out and using it in an actual missions. Also youre right you cant call viral op in that stance. but viral is op in a sense that it outpefroms in practial scenrios within game. I dont go into training mode on for honor and expect me to figrue out the most optimal way to fight a shamani have to go into an actual game for accurate data. 

If i use my dummies in eso to test out dps i know its not accarte as going into that dungeon or raid and i could be completley wrong about my build in a practial seting.

there are many things wrong with our testing labs via warframe. 

and yes itd be nice to have an accurate test to control but the simularcrum isnt that 

[AlexMercer]

I rather not get a nerf.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, AlexMercer said:

I rather not get a nerf.

they are going to do it eveuntally. would you rather wait for some years forget about this topic and then they nerf Viral. or while they are in the process of looking into the status and making changes get a nerf or change to such. id prefer they sort this stuff out right now before we get more "not working as intended" nerfs

[CatboyPrincess]

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Have you actually even played Warframe?

Viral isnt OP, corrosive is still good, CO is worthless.

The new viral does the same to health as magnetic does to shields. And DE even explained why they designed them to work this new way now.

Corrosive strips armor faster than it has in the past. Sure it’s capped at 80 and that sucks, but making it stack additively instead of getting diminishing returns on armor strip, and the reduced enemy armor values still make it a good status type.

CO is useless. There hasn’t been a single build I’ve tested where CO has been the better choice than PPP in my builds. So I have no idea where this idea that CO is always the better option for every build ever came from. Because it’s not. 

wow, damn. you clearly don't play enough different styles to have anything meaningful to say.

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You know I’ve been testing me Kuva Nukor and Gram Prime against my usual test. And guess what. They both performed better with corrosive modded on them over Viral.

If Viral was actually OP that wouldn’t be the case now would it.

Your one scenario of an edge-case counter-example is meaningless. 8/10 times Viral is superior compared to all other elements -- that's the problem. The problem is not 2/10 times -- thanks, but your tests are meaningless and only demonstrate what the 2/10 times are. Which we already know about, understand, and is irrelevant to the issue.

The issue is that Viral is useful 8/10 times, and in comparison, every other element is useful 2/10 times, if we're generous.

The issue is not that Corrosive is 2/10 times.

The issue is that Viral is useful 8/10 times.

Ideally, Viral and Corrossive and all other statuses are useful an similar number of times.

I.e. the problem is the disparity between Viral's number of useful cases vs. other elements's number of useful cases.

 

How many times do you need this explained to you? How can I reword what everyone has already said dozens of times in a way you can comprehend?

viral useful too many

corrosive useful not many

corrosive useful 2 times?? but viral useful 8 times!!! 8 bigger than 2, yes?

 

 

[AlexMercer]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

they are going to do it eveuntally. would you rather wait for some years forget about this topic and then they nerf Viral. or while they are in the process of looking into the status and making changes get a nerf or change to such. id prefer they sort this stuff out right now before we get more "not working as intended" nerfs

I wasn’t talking about viral im mostly talking about our dmg output i play this game to be a overpowerd being if i wanted to play for a challenge or play a difficult game i would go play dark souls so to me all kinds of nerf are bad including to viral but mostly our overall dmg output.

Edited April 5, 2020 by AlexMercer

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

1 minute ago, AlexMercer said:

i wasn’t talking about viral im mostly talking about our dmg output i play this game to be a overpowerd being if i wanted to play for a challenge or play a difficult game i would go play dark souls so to me all kinds of nerf are bad including to viral but mostly our overall dmg output.

An overpowered being you say

See this is what i hate about thos forums

 

They hate nerfs because they want to be OP

Yet when they play the game...it's too boring for them and come here to whine about nothing to do on the forums

 

[AlexMercer]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

An overpowered being you say

See this is what i hate about thos forums

 

They hate nerfs because they want to be OP

Yet when they play the game...it's too boring for them and come here to whine about nothing to do on the forums

 

I have never gone here and whine that it is too boring so im not one of those people so please don’t quote me like im one of them yes i want/like to be op to me it is fun to wipe the enemy like they are nothing i never thought the game got boring you just assume that i am one of the but i was just stating my opinion on this whole matter.

Edited April 5, 2020 by AlexMercer

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Because of the way the game is. in normal missions (which is the average mission) you dont control these variables. TTK cant be accurate in the simularcrum because again its under the Perfect conditions. in a looter shooter that would almost never be the norm vs going out and using it in an actual missions. Also youre right you cant call viral op in that stance. but viral is op in a sense that it outpefroms in practial scenrios within game. I dont go into training mode on for honor and expect me to figrue out the most optimal way to fight a shamani have to go into an actual game for accurate data. 

If i use my dummies in eso to test out dps i know its not accarte as going into that dungeon or raid and i could be completley wrong about my build in a practial seting.

there are many things wrong with our testing labs via warframe. 

and yes itd be nice to have an accurate test to control but the simularcrum isnt that 

How the actual f*** am I expected to test which build is better in a chaotic environment where I have no control over what enemies spawn or what circumstances their under and be able to call that accurate data?

Spoiler alert: I can’t. Because that’s not how proper testing is done. The whole reason I picked a heavy gunner is because I figured if my weapon can kill it in a reasonable time then it’s going to kill anything else in reasonable time.

The idea that a chaotic environment would ever be considered a more accurate place to test builds than a controlled environment goes against basic logic. But quite frankly I expect nothing less from the forums.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

-snip-

So what you’re saying is is that viral doesn’t need a nerf.

[CatboyPrincess]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So what you’re saying is is that viral doesn’t need a nerf.

To be direct: no. Viral needs a change (likely a nerf) and I believe Hopper is largely correct with this thread.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

-snip-

That doesn’t sound right. So you want our damage output to be nerf... despite the fact that enemy armor scaling was changed to better correlate with our current damage output. Thus destroying the whole reason DE changed enemy armor scaling to begin with.

I’m sorry but that’s just dumb.

[CatboyPrincess]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That doesn’t sound right. So you want our damage output to be nerf... despite the fact that enemy armor scaling was changed to better correlate with our current damage output. Thus destroying the whole reason DE changed enemy armor scaling to begin with.

I’m sorry but that’s just dumb.

Here is where your logic is at:

1. Our best DPS is only barely enough to effectively fight enemies.

2. Viral (as we observe both experimentally and anecdotally) is our highest DPS element. Corrosive is tied (as you observe) for best DPS element.

3. All other elements have worse DPS and fewer usable situations.

So now you must choose: does Viral, Corrosive, and enemy EHP all get a nerf to bring our DPS vs enemy EHP in line with all other elements, OR do all other elements get a significant buff because clearly they are not effective options?

Ultimately, pretty much every element, status, and enemy health/armour type interaction is subpar to Viral. Which means we're in the same situation of having one or at best, two (as you contend, despite Corrosive being worse in 8/10 cases) elements that are clear, obvious, overwhelming leaders in DPS. Which means we're in the same situation as pre-Status rework despite the motivation of the rework itself being to get rid of having such clear leaders in DPS. Which means more changes must be made to accomplish the objective of having a balanced selection of effective elements from which to choose.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Here is where your logic is at:

1. Our best DPS is only barely enough to effectively fight enemies.

2. Viral (as we observe both experimentally and anecdotally) is our highest DPS element. Corrosive is tied (as you observe) for best DPS element.

3. All other elements have worse DPS and fewer usable situations.

So now you must choose: does Viral, Corrosive, and enemy EHP all get a nerf to bring our DPS vs enemy EHP in line with all other elements, OR do all other elements get a significant buff because clearly they are not effective options?

Ultimately, pretty much every element, status, and enemy health/armour type interaction is subpar to Viral. Which means we're in the same situation of having one or at best, two (as you contend, despite Corrosive being worse in 8/10 cases) elements that are clear, obvious, overwhelming leaders in DPS. Which means we're in the same situation as pre-Status rework despite the motivation of the rework itself being to get rid of having such clear leaders in DPS. Which means more changes must be made to accomplish the objective of having a balanced selection of effective elements from which to choose.

So we don’t nerf Viral then.

[CatboyPrincess]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

So we don’t nerf Viral then.

Then you recognize that Viral is a top-tier element and all other elements need significant buffs.

Discussion complete.

[Kamachi]

Specifically on the issue of Viral;

Quite a few previous posters have stated or insinuated that it needs to be nerfed down to the level of other elements, as they see it. I'll never understand this mindset, you can simply choose not to mod for viral. You have that ability.

I assume the reason they want it nerfed even though they have the choice to not mod for it is because they don't want anyone else to have the option of using it in its current state, which to me is quite baffling considering this is a PvE game with no real meaningful competition between players that actually matters in reality. 

Just my two cents. 👍

[Yamazuki]

30 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Then you recognize that Viral is a top-tier element and all other elements need significant buffs.

Discussion complete.

Viral as a proc isn't top tier due to being overpowered, it's due to game and faction design. The others are simply conditional, and nerfing Viral doesn't change this at all. Why would someone use Magnetic all the time when its interaction is against enemies with shields? Magnetic is pretty much limited to just Corpus enemies, and it competes with Toxin for that due to Toxin just bypassing shields. Against enemies with shields though, Viral isn't really useful due to offering no damage increase to shields, Slash no longer bypassing shields, and weapons that 1 shot shields aren't even going to make any use of Viral procs due to the enemy at most only having 1 proc applied before dying, and if the weapon doesn't do this Toxin is better kill time wise by a wide margin depending on unit.

Due to how the game is designed it's not possible to have elements be equally useful unless they're all designed to be pretty much the same thing.

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Viral as a proc isn't top tier due to being overpowered, it's due to game and faction design. The others are simply conditional, and nerfing Viral doesn't change this at all. Why would someone use Magnetic all the time when its interaction is against enemies with shields? Magnetic is pretty much limited to just Corpus enemies, and it competes with Toxin for that due to Toxin just bypassing shields. Against enemies with shields though, Viral isn't really useful due to offering no damage increase to shields, Slash no longer bypassing shields, and weapons that 1 shot shields aren't even going to make any use of Viral procs due to the enemy at most only having 1 proc applied before dying, and if the weapon doesn't do this Toxin is better kill time wise by a wide margin depending on unit.

Due to how the game is designed it's not possible to have elements be equally useful unless they're all designed to be pretty much the same thing.

Personally, I think they need to just get rid of combo elements. Heat, cold, electric and toxic along with IPS should be more than enough. 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

12 minutes ago, Kamachi said:

Specifically on the issue of Viral;

Quite a few previous posters have stated or insinuated that it needs to be nerfed down to the level of other elements, as they see it. I'll never understand this mindset, you can simply choose not to mod for viral. You have that ability.

I assume the reason they want it nerfed even though they have the choice to not mod for it is because they don't want anyone else to have the option of using it in its current state, which to me is quite baffling considering this is a PvE game with no real meaningful competition between players that actually matters in reality. 

Just my two cents. 👍

Yes....its extremely petty and makes you wonder what kinda person thinks that way is all lol.

The list can go on: things like gara or khoras 1 being tied to melee mods. Like no one cares because theres 1700 other examples of things being op in the game.