Solution to Current Unfolding Events: A "Council of Design"

[Xsoskeleton]

The last time i was ever hyped about new releases was around Fortuna later updates, especially Exploiter Orb fight addition (Buried Debts update).

Where they can actually make content that felt good to do (not that its not grindy, it still does but the oomph fighting exploiter orb makes it worth it), and it has less grind heavy requirement as exploiter are hugely face tanking attacks, lobbing and breaking diluted thermias, and the requirement are simply fulll access to fortuna (cleared Vox quest) and someone in squad having a Diluted Thermia (easy to bring friends over).

Ever since then it went downhill, even on the rather recent thing that is Corinth Prime alt fire is like DE taking the already hate-able Penta trigger mechanic and made it worse (launch and detonate shares button which cant be helped but also not being able to detonate it if it lands).

[Zsword]

3 minutes ago, Atsia said:

Whoosh?

Not Whoosh, I feel I can trust @(NSW)Greybones to be on the up and up based on his other topics.

I'd say he'd be a great nomination for a counselor in this theoritical but awesome sounding idea that @(PS4)LeBlingKing has brought to the table, in fact!

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, Atsia said:

Probably worse, since any indication that DE knows a problem exists and hasn't done anything about it yet would just lead to even more salt and complaints, since I doubt DE would have the time to explain why a certain but it change game been made yet.

My thoughts exactly. Though there should be a separation between a 'problem' (i.e. a bug, something that is broken and needs to be fixed) versus a 'desired change' (i.e. feedback for how players want something to be changed). 

For bug report threads, a "This has been seen by a member of the development team" or perhaps a status indicator that says "DE investigating" would actually go a very long way (for bug reports) I think.

For feedback threads, yeah, it probably would result in making some folks even more volatile than before.

[(NSW)Greybones]

7 minutes ago, Zsword said:

Not Whoosh, I feel I can trust @(NSW)Greybones to be on the up and up based on his other topics.

I'd say he'd be a great nomination for a counselor in this theoritical but awesome sounding idea that @(PS4)LeBlingKing has brought to the table, in fact!

Oh #*!%, this is embarrassing 😅 I’m glad for the respect, friend, and right back at you, but I’m pretty sure I’ve been the fool in some of my other posts 

edit: Thanks though, that’s really nice of you to say 🙂

Edited April 7, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Hmmmm Council of Design.

Here's the issues with this.

A. We already have a Design Council that DE listen to , it's called A Gay Gu.......Warframe Reddit page.

B. We don't need this. Warframe is FIIIINE. The last update was terrific. The event was a success. Frames are getting more creative, devs are balancing things out well, warframe is top of the steam charts and twitch charts, Partners are happy, Community is happy and full of positivity, and most importantly, they're taking their time with the game. DE totally has this under control.

C. The DE staff ALL playthe game, so they understand the game as much as we do. Remember this the developers ALWAYS know better.

 

_{If you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic. IT seems I have the disclose this since the whoosh is reall}

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

5 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

The Design Council was never really meant to be an extension of DE's QA team. They're given the chance to vote on certain things and affect development of Warframe in a fairly minor way; they don't have the ear of the developers (except when DE asks, specifically, for idea suggestions in the Design Council).

While we have you, and after you've mentioned that, why is it that the partners are treated as extensions of the QA team then? They seem to have more pull than anyone regarding little things, like how Bling has pointed out AGGP Rob and the "Non-augment" mods.

That actually begs another question of why partners seem to have such a weird disparity between their offenses, ranging from how they can be banned for using exploits, but somehow not be banned for incentivizing hate and violence upon people in Rob's case. As a partner, they're more a representative of the game, not QA, and you'd think that with offenses like Rob's there, he'd have been gone instantly considering his association with DE.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

2 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

What you're wanting, or at least from what I can tell, is basically a 'Cool Kids Club' comprised of selected individuals from the community who act either as, or in addition to, DE's QA team. 

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Letter, but I'm afraid it's kind of the opposite. 

Spoiler

 

This thread was a joke, born out of the fact that the Design Council hasn't really been getting much traction as it has been. The things you probably read up about, about how we got thrown under a bus after those Elite Alert Designs before Nightwave existed, about how the community got mad at us for ruining the Community-Created Warframe even though we only contributed to one thing, about how our Discord, despite being run by some of the best Tenno I've ever had the pleasure of working with, being unable to affiliate itself with DE, those were all true.

I don't necessarily desire a QA team or a team for bug-testers or anything like that (I mean, that's what we've got the PC community for, lmao), especially for the reasons that you noted, all good reasons.

I just wanted to draw some attention to an obsoleted community feature and get some entertainment from other Councillors on what was essentially a gigantic inside joke. Maybe I'll lose my Councillor status for this, maybe I won't. Doesn't matter much to me.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. 

 

 

[MagPrime]

Well, I'm handy with a glue gun and macaroni, and I have disposable funds.  

I feel this makes me the perfect candidate for such an exclusive and streamlined group!

[Letter13]

1 minute ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Letter, but I'm afraid it's kind of the opposite. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

This thread was a joke, born out of the fact that the Design Council hasn't really been getting much traction as it has been. The things you probably read up about, about how we got thrown under a bus after those Elite Alert Designs before Nightwave existed, about how the community got mad at us for ruining the Community-Created Warframe even though we only contributed to one thing, about how our Discord, despite being run by some of the best Tenno I've ever had the pleasure of working with, being unable to affiliate itself with DE, those were all true.

I don't necessarily desire a QA team or a team for bug-testers or anything like that (I mean, that's what we've got the PC community for, lmao), especially for the reasons that you noted, all good reasons.

I just wanted to draw some attention to an obsoleted community feature and get some entertainment from other Councillors on what was essentially a gigantic inside joke. Maybe I'll lose my Councillor status for this, maybe I won't. Doesn't matter much to me.

Again, sorry for the misunderstanding. 

 

 

I understand that the thread was meant as a joke. That doesn't mean that there can't be some meaningful discussion and brainstorming on how a more influential 'design council' might work (or not)!

[Zsword]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

Oh #*!%, this is embarrassing 😅 I’m glad for the respect, friend, and right back at you, but I’m pretty sure I’ve been the fool in some of my other posts 

No individual is perfect, which is why it's a council, a group. There needs to be debate and conflict: in order to make the wood smooth, sand paper is rough.

You're definitely active, and from what I see you at least try to weigh in counterpoints and the like as opposed to blindly holding on to your beliefs, so hey. I'll admit I've never been a very active member of the forums, or any community I'm in, which I believe was why I missed the boat when last this idea was going around about potential 'community based design advisers'.

[Xsoskeleton]

The cool kids club idea doesnt have to always be flawlessly accurate bug and exploit spotter. DE could still do the usual update first fix (tons) later, but the club is there to help deciding which is fine, which is grave, and which would work better, based on acutal player experience. The venari and limbo hot shots was the prime result of DE clearly having no actual player to consult the changes.

[MagPrime]

Honestly, I'd settle for being able to tag threads that we feel DE could pay more attention to, or even create threads in the DC space with the intent of bringing other, relevant topics to the forefront of the chaos of the Forums. 

A lot of the council members are there because they demonstrated a passion and understanding of the game, DE could be putting such a group to better use by having them bring important topics and threads to their attention. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by MagPrime
Words are hard, ok?

[SpectreTheMediocre]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Hmmmm Council of Design.

Here's the issues with this.

A. We already have a Design Council that DE listen to , it's called A Gay Gu.......Warframe Reddit page.

B. We don't need this. Warframe is FIIIINE. The last update was terrific. The event was a success. Frames are getting more creative, devs are balancing things out well, warframe is top of the steam charts and twitch charts, Partners are happy, Community is happy and full of positivity, and most importantly, they're taking their time with the game. DE totally has this under control.

C. The DE staff ALL playthe game, so they understand the game as much as we do. Remember this the developers ALWAYS know better.

 

_{If you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic. IT seems I have the disclose this since the whoosh is reall}

Oh ho of course, DE plays all the time, and they make such great changes to the game that we can't possibly Rob them out of the attention they should be getting, everyone in the community is happy, who needs stuff like nightwave and making a frame like nyx useful anyways amiright guys ?

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Just now, Letter13 said:

I understand that the thread was meant as a joke. That doesn't mean that there can't be some meaningful discussion and brainstorming on how a more influential 'design council' might work (or not)!

In all actuality, it's been difficult for a lot of us to keep caring about helping in any capacity as councilors. We were all bright eyed and wanted to help shape the game, but with how development has been going these last few years, especially these last few atrocious updates which even the devs acknowledged, we're running on empty as we feel like a bit of player input now would help more than anything but that we're continously getting shafted.

We get like, one thing a year. I swear to god the last thing I remember aside from the new frame which Tactical Potato had spoiled were DOJO PLANTERS. Like ONE planter to be chosen.

Being a councilor doesn't feel like it means anything anymore since DE doesn't use us, I think it was either Reb or Danielle that straight up said they forgot we existed during a stream a while back.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

1 minute ago, Xsoskeleton said:

The cool kids club idea doesnt have to always be flawlessly accurate bug and exploit spotter. DE could still do the usual update first fix (tons) later, but the club is there to help deciding which is fine, which is grave, and which would work better, based on acutal player experience. The venari and limbo hot shots was the prime result of DE clearly having no actual player to consult the changes.

Yeah, my main issue with this situation is that the only reason these objective healing changes went through in the first place were as a result of what players were doing to make the event all that easier. But before you know it, the event will be gone, and the objective healing changes will still be there. Why? Because players used the resources dealt to them, and they worked TOO well.

Just now, MagPrime said:

Honestly, I'd settle for being able to tag threads that we feel DE could pay more attention to, or even create threads in the DC space with the intent of bringing other, relevant topics to the forefront of the chaos of the Forums. 

A lotnofnthr councils members are there because they demonstrated a passion and understanding if the game, DE coukd be putting such a group to better use by having them bring important topics and threads to their attention. 

That would be awesome, and relatively simple to implement!

Good work, you glue-gun-wielding Tenno, you!

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Yeah, my main issue with this situation is that the only reason these objective healing changes went through in the first place were as a result of what players were doing to make the event all that easier. But before you know it, the event will be gone, and the objective healing changes will still be there. Why? Because players used the resources dealt to them, and they worked TOO well.

That would be awesome, and relatively simple to implement!

Good work, you glue-gun-wielding Tenno, you!

Throws macaroni in the air

Edited April 7, 2020 by MagPrime
My phone and I hate eachother.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

  

1 minute ago, SpectreTheMediocre said:

Oh ho of course, DE plays all the time, and they make such great changes to the game that we can't possibly Rob them out of the attention they should be getting, everyone in the community is happy, who needs stuff like nightwave and making a frame like nyx useful anyways amiright guys ?

You are right, DE knows exactly what they're doing, and would absolutely not waste titanic amounts of time developing meaningless content.

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Grimsley Clause said:

In all actuality, it's been difficult for a lot of us to keep caring about helping in any capacity as councilors. We were all bright eyed and wanted to help shape the game, but with how development has been going these last few years, especially these last few atrocious updates which even the devs acknowledged, we're running on empty as we feel like a bit of player input now would help more than anything but that we're continously getting shafted.

We get like, one thing a year. I swear to god the last thing I remember aside from the new frame which Tactical Potato had spoiled were DOJO PLANTERS. Like ONE planter to be chosen.

Being a councilor doesn't feel like it means anything anymore since DE doesn't use us, I think it was either Reb or Danielle that straight up said they forgot we existed during a stream a while back.

Exactly. It's bad enough that the game is going down a slippery slope, it's even worse when the one feature put in place to prevent something like this has been left to die for literal years with no choice but to watch the game they invested so much time into split into several content islands, and then those islands burning one after the other.

[MagPrime]

Even if they gave general outlines in upcoming content, the DC could help iron obvious, glaring flaws like the Nidus cyst release or event scoring. 

There are enough people who have a serious crush in math that could have helped negate the most recent scoring issues. (Not all of them but the most obvious-why-does-one-give-so-much-more type thing)

[zakaryx]

2 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

 

I present to you: The Council of Design! 

 

An original concept not at all inspired by a group that doesn't exist within Warframe, the Council of Design (or the CD) will be able to give the developers the immediate feedback they need in order to whip their thinking gears into shape!

 

So you're talking about the CSM right? If so, you could at least give a link to people to show real world examples of this system. 

Edit.

 

Oh it's a joke. I figured you were proposing a warframe version of the council of stellar management like EVE online. It's a group of players elected by players with a direct line to CCP

It's been in practice for over a decade now

https://community.eveonline.com/community/csm/

Edited April 7, 2020 by zakaryx

[GreyDeath789]

8 minutes ago, zakaryx said:

So you're talking about the CSM right? If so, you could at least give a link to people to show real world examples of this system. 

The CSM would be an interesting thing for DE to try to implement...just not sure Warframe has as organized of a player community to make it functional at the start. Would probably take a few years for the community to adjust to the concept. But still an idea.

Oh and these ideas just proves that Warframe players are not a single game community...

Edited April 7, 2020 by GreyDeath789
edit

[AzureTerra]

1 hour ago, Nehra96 said:

We need a legit testing squad though, just so the limbo fiasco in this operation wouldn't repeat. If DE had given the update to any half decent player, he or she would have told them that limbo was going to cheese it so hard. 

We are the testing squad and the thing with limbo shows it in action, what it also shows is how crap people are at accepting that stuff that they were cheesing with is going to be fixed.

[Zsword]

In all fairness, its things like this that I wish I had the resources (namely: internet) to be a content creator of sorts and have a small forum of discussion to banter back and forth with while being able to do some live demonstrations.

With our most recent, hot-hot topic of the event, people complain about Limbo being overplayed, but I look at what is being thrown at us and ask 'what else are we supposed to do?', Sentients are, the end game enemy right, the big bad, and they're being thrown en mass with their massively damaging tornado's and disco balls and blinky chests to slaughter us, and in no small amount of time will start succeeding handily.

Now I don't know all the best ways to handle it, but I know one thing about the WF community itself: No one, likes playing Limbo. The reason why depends greatly between players but could be loosely narrowed down to 3 types:

1: 'I don't understand him.' He's not the easiest frame to wrap your head around and some people just wanna bangbangpewpewIronskin/Snowglobe/Wardinghalo/Crush/Peacemakers/plentyofsimpleabilitiesgohere.

2: 'He's too easy.' Once you do wrap your head around him, he's super cheezy, but that's also his, core design and theme, to an extent.

3: 'Other players matter.' which I'm quantifying this to both the 'people complain if I play him' and 'people may get confused if I play him' and anything in between, this is where I'm putting the 'I actually like limbo himself BUT' team, cause that BUT is 99% of the time, other player input. Usually complaining.

Now this event had some of the widest CALLING for Limbo I've seen, entire teams consistently begging for one to the point even I've dusted mine off and relearned the art of rift stepping, and still got wrekt once or twice because you can't miss a beat. There aren't many beats to miss, but man if you DO.

Now, Nerfing Limbo as a whole for one faction, I think is actually kinda fair. Sentients are already kinda weird when it comes to dimension stuff, Limbo is weird when it comes to dimension stuff, whatever.

When I started going 'wait what', is when they started taking away -other tools- from other frames that were of, questionable use, because when the live community has me hopping between 5+ junctions to a sea of Limbo and Mesa, the problem isn't who's too good. Warframe players, as a whole, as a community, and I mean the silent pubs who you hop in, get one mission, and disband, there is an understanding: You play who you find fun. If they don't work, then you start moving up the chain. Limbo and Mesa, are the top of the ladder. If they're being played in mass, it's not because, well they're easy and we want to cheese it, it's because they're desperate, and nothing else is working.

So when we're in that state, and you start nerfing, the other answers that are already being decently ignored, you uh, aren't addressing the problem.

Now, this has been addressed in a way I can, loosely accept in that now, 3x17 isn't the 'requirement' for your 5k points, the readjustments on that front make getting partials more viable, and partials mean more frame options.

How much of this would a more active counsel being utilized have resolved? I don't know! I've kinda been wanting to rant about this for awhile and this has kinda turned into a place for some things so here we are and I'm trying to segway this back and that's, easier said than done. Somethingsometihng, Ninjas play for free and ninjas know what we're talking about?

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

9 minutes ago, Zsword said:

In all fairness, its things like this that I wish I had the resources (namely: internet) to be a content creator of sorts and have a small forum of discussion to banter back and forth with while being able to do some live demonstrations.

With our most recent, hot-hot topic of the event, people complain about Limbo being overplayed, but I look at what is being thrown at us and ask 'what else are we supposed to do?', Sentients are, the end game enemy right, the big bad, and they're being thrown en mass with their massively damaging tornado's and disco balls and blinky chests to slaughter us, and in no small amount of time will start succeeding handily.

Now I don't know all the best ways to handle it, but I know one thing about the WF community itself: No one, likes playing Limbo. The reason why depends greatly between players but could be loosely narrowed down to 3 types:

1: 'I don't understand him.' He's not the easiest frame to wrap your head around and some people just wanna bangbangpewpewIronskin/Snowglobe/Wardinghalo/Crush/Peacemakers/plentyofsimpleabilitiesgohere.

2: 'He's too easy.' Once you do wrap your head around him, he's super cheezy, but that's also his, core design and theme, to an extent.

3: 'Other players matter.' which I'm quantifying this to both the 'people complain if I play him' and 'people may get confused if I play him' and anything in between, this is where I'm putting the 'I actually like limbo himself BUT' team, cause that BUT is 99% of the time, other player input. Usually complaining.

Now this event had some of the widest CALLING for Limbo I've seen, entire teams consistently begging for one to the point even I've dusted mine off and relearned the art of rift stepping, and still got wrekt once or twice because you can't miss a beat. There aren't many beats to miss, but man if you DO.

Now, Nerfing Limbo as a whole for one faction, I think is actually kinda fair. Sentients are already kinda weird when it comes to dimension stuff, Limbo is weird when it comes to dimension stuff, whatever.

When I started going 'wait what', is when they started taking away -other tools- from other frames that were of, questionable use, because when the live community has me hopping between 5+ junctions to a sea of Limbo and Mesa, the problem isn't who's too good. Warframe players, as a whole, as a community, and I mean the silent pubs who you hop in, get one mission, and disband, there is an understanding: You play who you find fun. If they don't work, then you start moving up the chain. Limbo and Mesa, are the top of the ladder. If they're being played in mass, it's not because, well they're easy and we want to cheese it, it's because they're desperate, and nothing else is working.

So when we're in that state, and you start nerfing, the other answers that are already being decently ignored, you uh, aren't addressing the problem.

Now, this has been addressed in a way I can, loosely accept in that now, 3x17 isn't the 'requirement' for your 5k points, the readjustments on that front make getting partials more viable, and partials mean more frame options.

 

I've been talking about this extensively as there's been a severe nerf mentality.

Everything is nerfed now. The action of a few things nerfs an entire group or mechanic to keep things consistent on a lower level instead of buffing things to match the level of the stronger item. This event clearly shows that we have little options to perform exceptionally, and having things buffed every now and again to give us some more options instead of creating metals would be amazing. Hard to be excited for updates now as it's boiled down to "Oh boy, it's Tuesday, what's getting nerfed now" or "Welp. There goes that incredibly useful mechanic that's been here for years."

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

a group of people that the developers can instantly look toward in order to gain insight, feedback, and ideas

That's the community.

2 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

help DE design missions, mods, Warframes, and everything in between

"Let's make backseat developers official."

Just go apply for a job if you care that much.

Edited April 7, 2020 by SenorClipClop

[Zsword]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Grimsley Clause said:

I've been talking about this extensively as there's been a severe nerf mentality.

Everything is nerfed now. The action of a few things nerfs an entire group or mechanic to keep things consistent on a lower level instead of buffing things to match the level of the stronger item. This event clearly shows that we have little options to perform exceptionally, and having things buffed every now and again to give us some more options instead of creating metals would be amazing. Hard to be excited for updates now as it's boiled down to "Oh boy, it's Tuesday, what's getting nerfed now" or "Welp. There goes that incredibly useful mechanic that's been here for years."

To TL:DR my post and maybe help clean it up, though it is mostly going to boil down to, what Grim has said here:

Limbo is what we play when the tools we want to use don't work.

Don't take away the tool that works.

Give us more tools that do work.

What do we have? Frost, doesn't work. Gara, doesn't work. Khora, didn't work and got nerfed anyway. Vauban, doesn't work. By their powers combined they may be able to keep Gara and frost shields up long enough for Khora to mend the damage that is level 120+ sentient lazers nicking the oplink and exploding it nigh on instantly but still required a full squad of cohesion that is just, unfair to expect of the playerbase as a whole.

Now the updated point values don't require a full set of seventeens. I did a 3x11~ today I think it was, roundabout. No Limbo's, one round with a frost, one round with a Slowva, and I forget the third, and we still pulled it, closer than I was comfortable for seeing clearly highly competent players trying their darnedest to save the day. I tell you what, I'm at a point in the game where if I come in with realistic expectations (Defense vs. Sentients) and a build appropriate for it (Wisp motes are great for damage, CC, and durability for everyone, Breachsurge is a fantastic CC tool with more damage behind it and some mobility if I'm out of position. It's defense based so I can fairly reliably expect pubs to want to play a Gara or Frost at least, or we'll defend with damage and our selves as needed. Bring a puncture primary with corrosive, an impact secondary with radiation, and Paracesis as a just-in-case to handle that adaptation everyway possible), I should keep up fine, I shouldn't even struggle. That's the nature of the game, identify, adapt, overcome.

I brought in my tools, and got destroyed. That's, not a good feeling. Frost bubbles couldn't keep up, and I, admittedly, underestimated how much the sentients would be swarming. The most we've seen in a single encounter up until now was still just 4, maybe up to 6 at the Anomaly Murex if you chained the rooms into a single 'fight'.

Now, this was all done with very standard practical player knowledge, not even close to, a cocky mentality coming in (cause really, starchart sentients aren't exactly difficult with our familiarity at this point and you already had to gear for the Veil-grineer for the Anomaly, which was plenty for the Sentients there.) and I took all the requisite precautions short of taking bubble matters in my own hands.

Knowing these are, more than a little overtuned to be an event, wouldn't of taken much of player input from a basic test build, if given to some live players to fiddle with. Though maybe that's just me, still fanning some of my own flames because of current content. I seem to be on a livewire to try and derail this at this time of night, so I'ma leave this to be my last response for now and go sleep it off. x.x