TARINunit9 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Krankbert said: You're talking about these things as if they were hard and stayed hard no matter how well equipped you are. The fact is that they are only hard if you lack the gear to make them trivial. With the right gear, these things are as easy as any level 3 Earth node, and that gear you can absolutely buy. Yes, that's actually my point. Now we are getting closer to the same page Warframe is a game all about grinding for equipment, yes. You need to right loadout to win But the game is not so cynical that it will just sell you the loadouts you need to win. It will sell you SOME things to be more convenient, but not the things you need to actually win. It sells convenient things, not powerful things Hell, they even put limits on the trade system to discourage TRYing to p2w. You can't trade until day 3 of playing, and you need to grind things honestly in order to reach MR2, and trading not only requires plat but also credits which you need to grind for The kind of game less-principled people would agree is P2W would not have these scruples. They would let you drop a thousand bucks and let you get each and every piece of gear you could ever want As before, I do not blame you for being so strictly principled. The game industry took away your optimism. Edited April 13, 2020 by TARINunit9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krankbert Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) vor 7 Minuten schrieb Zimzala: OK..so now we are pouring over posts to determine blame and 'who is right', again... You are RIght. Is that what you need to hear to move on with your life? If you recall my previous comment, I said I could tell you were a troll because you didn't respond to the argument, instead chosing to fixate on a rhetorical question. vor 30 Minuten schrieb Krankbert: Someone who isn't a troll would have responded to the argument made, not the clearly rhetorical question. Now you're whining and deflecting and flaunting, how you deliberately ignore any attempt at a serious discussion in favor of things that you think will get a rise out of me. Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimzala Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Just now, Krankbert said: If you recall my previous comment, I said I could tell you were a troll because you didn't respond to the argument, instead chosing to fixate on a rhetorical question. Now you're whining and deflecting and flaunting, how you deliberately ignore any attempt at a serious discussionin favor of things that you think will get a rise out of me. So, what argument did I miss that you want me to weigh in on, I thought I had hit your points? Happy to discuss actual thoughts over this ... pedantic word salad or whatever you want to call it ... I get it, you think I am a Troll, a bad person, whatever, that's fine. So what is it you would rather discuss here, as I said, I don't know which of your points you want addressed that I missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Yep, devolved into mud slinging. Such a fun form of discourse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krankbert Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) vor 12 Minuten schrieb TARINunit9: But the game is not so cynical that it will just sell you the loadouts you need to win. It will sell you SOME things to be more convenient, but not the things you need to actually win. It sells convenient things, not powerful things Hell, they even put limits on the trade system to discourage TRYing to p2w. You can't trade until day 3 of playing, and you need to grind things honestly in order to reach MR2, and trading not only requires plat but also credits which you need to grind for I can buy a credit booster, I can buy credits outright, I can at MR0 buy a vastly superior weapon with a high MR requirement that is literally impossible to get until way later into the game. I can buy a catalyst, I can buy a reactor, I can buy Arcanes, I can buy mods, I can buy Endo. Sure, the game doesn't sell me loadouts. It just sells me literally every part of a loadout, either directly or by trading for plat. This is as dishonest as your asinine claim that calling a game Pay2Win was a criminal offense. Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krankbert Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) vor 9 Minuten schrieb Zimzala: So, what argument did I miss that you want me to weigh in on, I thought I had hit your points? People who weren't trolling would probably try to check the comment above the comment to which I responded that you had ignored my argument. They would have done that immediately. Of course you didn't do that and instead continue to ramble on in comment after comment about how you totally responded to everything and can't find the argument that you "missed". Because you are in fact trolling. Edited April 13, 2020 by Krankbert 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPonder Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said: on cash-shop exclusiveness One time, I was playing a MMO that there was a item that you "could" get by playing the game. On the content it was released, it had a resource that required 1000 of it to build the item. 5 months after playing said content, I had around 250 of that resource while playing around 10hours per day. You could equip 3 of this item by the way. Or you could simple cash shop for it. Exclusiveness means nothing too. Edited April 13, 2020 by MPonder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Krankbert said: This is as dishonest as your asinine claim that calling a game Pay2Win was a criminal offense. No, it's actually true in Europe 5 minutes ago, Krankbert said: I can buy a credit booster, I can buy credits outright, I can at MR0 buy a vastly superior weapon with a high MR requirement that is literally impossible to get until way later into the game. I can buy a catalyst, I can buy a reactor, I can buy Arcanes, I can buy mods, I can buy Endo. Sure, the game doesn't sell me loadouts. It just sells me literally every part of a loadout, either directly or by trading for plat. Only if you are being incredibly strict to the point where it becomes disingenuous to actually apply the definitions I understand your principles, but I do not agree that Warframe runs afoul of them in practice, only on paper And what has DE done in practice? They have actually REMOVED some of their worst microtransactions. There were Warframes whose Oxium cost was so high they went back and reduced it. There were Kubrow conveniences that were so bad they went back and reworked them, removing the paid version ENTIRELY The world runs on context. Microtransactions are like a carcinogen -- for some products, avoiding them entirely is unreasonable, so you gauge a company on how they minimize them, not whether they simply have them And DE has screwed up royally at least once with this. The Hema debacle comes to mind, that was a cancer and a half. But I have never seen them relapse. They didn't even move the goalposts with the Hema, they moved back to where the goalposts already were after that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimzala Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Krankbert said: People who weren't trolling would probably try to check the comment above the comment to which I responded that you had ignored my argument. They would have done that immediately. Of course you didn't do that and instead continue to ramble on in comment after comment about how you totally responded to everything and can't find the argument that you "missed". Because you are in fact trolling. I went back and looked - I cannot find a point you were trying to make that I missed, but I am not perfect. You don't seem like you want to discuss anything IMO, just lash out at me, so I guess I will bow out until I see an actual subject on which to type. We disagree on a subjective POV, I really have no idea why you have this level of animosity toward me and others for simply disagreeing with you over particulars in a video game. I see a P2W game as a different thing than you do, no big deal to me, not sure why you have so much invested in what other people think is P2W or not. Good luck, Toodles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krankbert Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said: No, it's actually true in Europe Only if you are being incredibly strict to the point where it becomes disingenuous to actually apply the definitions I understand your principles, but I do not agree that Warframe runs afoul of them in practice, only on paper And what has DE done in practice? They have actually REMOVED some of their worst microtransactions. There were Warframes whose Oxium cost was so high they went back and reduced it. There were Kubrow conveniences that were so bad they went back and reworked them, removing the paid version ENTIRELY The world runs on context. Microtransactions are like a carcinogen -- for some products, avoiding them entirely is unreasonable, so you gauge a company on how they minimize them, not whether they simply have them And DE has screwed up royally at least once with this. The Hema debacle comes to mind, that was a cancer and a half. But I have never seen them relapse. They didn't even move the goalposts with the Hema, they moved back to where the goalposts already were after that You said that you can't buy certain things. I pointed out that you can absolutely buy that exact thing. That's not me being strict, that's you saying things that aren't true. Also, I don't know if you don't realize that the article doesn't say what you claim it does or just don't care, but it doesn't say what you think it does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thegarada Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 The issue is not the popularity, but the popularity with accessibility. Example, I have rivens for Acceltra, Fulmin and Ingnis (plus a bunch of others that I don't even remember). Guess which one I regularly use, which one I occasionally use and which one I never use? I regularly use Acceltra, occasionally Fulmin and never Ignis. Yet, Acceletra, which is objectively better and stronger than either (Fulmin is better when ammo could be an issue), has 0.8 disp, Fulmin 0.6 and Ignis 0.6 (wraith 0.55). Ignis is more popular? Sure. It is a MR5 weapon and great in dealing with level 15-30 mobs. Guess how many people fight level 100 mobs on the regular versus level 20 on the regular? Is this a logical path that Ignis has lower dispo than Acceltra? The question is not be which weapon is more popular, but if you have both weapons and rives for them, which one would you use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, MPonder said: One time, I was playing a MMO that there was a item that you "could" get by playing the game. On the content it was released, it had a resource that required 1000 of it to build the item. 5 months after playing said content, I had around 250 of that resource while playing around 10hours per day. You could equip 3 of this item by the way. Or you could simple cash shop for it. Exclusiveness means nothing too. Yes, but what exactly did you win and who did you win over? What you describe is just the company wanting revenue someway. And I assume most the rest of the game was pretty much free? Just because a method is scummy it doesnt mean it automatically becomes P2W, it just means it is a scummy monetization model. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Krankbert said: You said that you can't buy certain things. I pointed out that you can absolutely buy that exact thing. That's not me being strict, that's you saying things that aren't true. Wow yes, I forgot you could buy 30,000 Credits, consider my entire philosophy debunked. This, combined with the fact you don't know why EA got in such trouble with Belgium, lets me know that I am trying to argue nuance, philosophy, and game design with a brick wall. Have a nice day I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimzala Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said: The issue is not the popularity, but the popularity with accessibility. Now, this I can get behind as a valid argument for looking at a possible change. Makes perfect sense that items of lower MR might be more used, just due to population. Perhaps the popularity rating could be based more on if you can use an item, then how popular, so that MR 15+ items are not reflected in the same pool as MR0 items. I love the overall idea of the popular being lowered and the non-popular being lifted, but I can see with this idea that the numbers could be odd due to MR requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPonder Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said: Yes, but what exactly did you win and who did you win over? 66% multiplicative damage boost that help it a lot in the next endgame content that was almost impossible to do without it cause of DPS check mechanics. Edited April 13, 2020 by MPonder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, MPonder said: next endgame content. "Next"? I didn't even know there was a first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, MPonder said: 66% multiplicative damage boost that help it a lot in the next endgame content that was almost impossible to do without it cause of DPS check mechanics. But you didnt win over anything that lost because you spent money. So not pay to win. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPonder Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said: But you didnt win over anything that lost because you spent money. So not pay to win. I didn't spend money, we complained in the forum and they finally did the change on the loot after some time. We won the next endgame gear that was much better than the older that would be impossible without those itens. Edited April 13, 2020 by MPonder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, MPonder said: I didn't spend money, we complained in the forum and they finally did the change on the loot after some time. Good for them, I still dont see the P2W part. Scummy company possibly, but that is about it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPonder Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said: Good for them, I still dont see the P2W part. Scummy company possibly, but that is about it. I don't think you are able to see anything, really, since your logic is so distorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
failedtodiet Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 You play Warframe and collect all the stuffs so pay to skip or pay to win, it's all the same: Pay to get what you want. Play the game (in this case: Riven farming) to get a chance of a chance to get the thing you want with a random stats and random nerf/buff in the future ... well, it's the same as a loot box inside a loot box inside a loot box that you "buy" with your time OR you can pay plat to get what you want right away. Just because it's not worth paying doesn't mean people can't pay to get all the things they want. To me, the Riven system pushed Warframe into the grey zone already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)caoshen0625 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 If warframe fits the definition of p2w , is there a pve f2p game that is not p2w? I would like to check it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreades Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Yes and no, popularity is a fairly decent l gage for power since people will naturally gravitate towards raw power... however it can be skewed by releases. So as long as they are factoring in those spikes it should be fairly reliable as a flag for review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimzala Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) Loving or hating the Riven system, defining where the P2W lines are, these are IMO subjective things. Edited April 13, 2020 by Zimzala the right thing to do 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NovusNova Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Cleaned thread. Please stay on topic in the future, in this threads case, about riven disposition and how making changes to them based on popularity is wrong. Remember to be respectful of people's opinions on the topic and do not judge them or dismiss their opinions because of where you believe they might live. If you find someone to be breaking the forum guidelines, report them and move on, do not respond to them. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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