Ash blade storm to work SIMILAR to peacemaker to achieve ease of use for consoles

[Jim22]

11 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Mesa and Saryn. Ash used to belong here but now he is balanced. Now we just need that for Mesa and Saryn and we'll finally be able to play any mission type normally again.

how do you think they can balance mesa without making her have to mark enemy's before she can kill them.

[Rakosta_Kai]

19 minutes ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

Not to be rude but Mesa is a tank, by every definition. She is most certainly not a glass cannon.

Glass cannon...  Because the tankiness you mention comes from timed abilities, those abilities aren't 100% even when active, and her armor is lackluster.

Mesa is about as glassy as the rest of cannon frames get in this game which is why I call her a glass cannon.

Saying she's a tank is like saying Loki or Volt is a tank imo.

In fact, they both qualify moreso as tanks compared to Mesa...I don't see them as tanks though.

Calling her a glass cannon might be a bit of hyperbole on my part... But calling her "a tank by every definition" would be hyperbole on yours.

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

1 hour ago, JackHargreav said:

Mesa is probably the worst frame we have.

Without her 4th ability no one would use her ever.

She’s not the only frame who’s power budget favours their 4.

[-AiLuoLi-]

Why use Ash when you can use someone else? #Bring back real Bladestorm

[Pie_mastyr]

53 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That down time is intentional.

Yes, it's to make sure you dont have clones out all the time. What else am I gonna do with all this energy though? Spam my 1? Having something like this really breaks the flow, when I play ash i already have to jump a room ahead of my bloodthirsty squad if i ever want to see my clones killing anything. If they allow a second set of Marks that you cant activate until the first set clears would that really be that awful?

In any case it's a far milder buff than what has been suggested.

57 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

A crazy idea: maybe dont waste all your time actually trying to mark 20 enemies....

How about you mark a "cluster" of enemies, activate Blade Storm, then....using your radar....head in a different direction and maybe shoot or melee some more enemies.....

I do that already was just exaggerating a bit. But even modded for speed kills the ttk a group of let's say 5 enemies is slow enough that I usually engage 3 more just like them before my hit squad kills theirs. Any less than this amount per bladestorm just makes the ability annoying to use.

I understand there are workarounds to how Ash's ultimate functions. And I understand it functions this way so that his ultimate isn't essentially a stare of death (like Mesa). Im not asking it to be made into an ability like this either. It's just some qol that let's you engage more with the characters ability.

 

 

[Eluminary]

Well mesa peacemaker is good and ash bladestorm kinda isn't atm sooo the reason bladestorm can't be like peacemaker is probly that peacemaker is going to be made like bladestorm.

 

The funny thing is bladestorm was going to be reworked to be a persistant power like world on fire the dev's tested that and just said ooooh wow  ... thats to strong were not doing that 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Eluminary

[ES-Flinter]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PS4)Hopper_Orouk:

Ash goes through intense focus looking for someone to murder 

Then Instantly summons his clones to attack enemies in his narrow field of view

You can use teleport while bladestorm is active to summon a third clone for faster DPS

Each finisher strike consumes energy 

Finisher kills won't cost any energy 

Just why can't it be like this^

 

vor 24 Minuten schrieb -AiLuoLi-:

Why use Ash when you can use someone else? #Bring back real Bladestorm

No, no, no and again NO!!!

Did one of you even once used Ash, when he was able to kill anything in a radius of 30m from almost any position? Did you know what for a pain it was, when you joined a spy, Assasination, exterminate, rescue, defense, mobile defense or any other mission and you were judged, because you didn't spam Bs 24/7? I'm happy that Ash isn't a press4towin frame anymore. Very happy. I'm in the near of of 1,5k hours with my Ash and I can tell you, that the time was the worst I ever had with him. I simply couldn't enjoy my frame just because the others didn't allow it me.

Now it's only Mesa and Saryn. And I feel sad for everyone who mains them. I know that feeling of not being allowed to play your frame in your own (unique) way, because everyone want from you to kill everything with one button.

last but not least I'm still for a complete rework for Ash. His problems starts with his questionable tanky stats and ends with the fact, that his fourth ability can simple be stuck into his third ability (hold the button), because they are almost the same.

Edited May 4, 2020 by ES-Flinter

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 minutes ago, Pie_mastyr said:

Yes, it's to make sure you dont have clones out all the time. What else am I gonna do with all this energy though? Spam my 1? Having something like this really breaks the flow, when I play ash i already have to jump a room ahead of my bloodthirsty squad if i ever want to see my clones killing anything.

That's because it isn't an aoe. You are comparing what amounts to a snipe to what amounts to carpet bombing.

13 minutes ago, Pie_mastyr said:

If they allow a second set of Marks that you cant activate until the first set clears would that really be that awful?

If it's a question of "degree of awfulness" then any degree applies... As such, the answer would be: Probably.

Regard that they didn't nerf the ability—They made it onerous to use instead.

That's not to say I don't think it could be improved... But one of those improvements shouldn't be an increase in DPS.

If it's easier to use, or use repeatedly, it's DPS is increased.

Your idea makes it less onerous to use, and for that reason, the answer is: Probably.

 

[DroopingPuppy]

That's the reason why Ash is terrible. It is too uncomfortable, like as the game punishes you for try to use Bladestorm.

 

I don't say for its damage output. I just say that it is too annoy to activate. The stupid 'mark' mechanism must be removed for good.

Edited May 4, 2020 by DroopingPuppy

[Acersecomic]

1 hour ago, Jim22 said:

how do you think they can balance mesa without making her have to mark enemy's before she can kill them.

Make her more like Excalibur perhaps? Instead of having Exalted Aimbot, she could have a pair of really damn good Semi-Revolvers with no recoil, infinite punch-through, and very high damage/cc/cd/sc stats. Make it an overpowered weapon but make the players do all the work. She should then be able to move without an augment a well.

Her augment could change to the weapons being automatic, have travel speed but be homing to the nearest aimed enemy. Similarly to Buzlok, just without the beacon.

I think this sounds reasonable and makes sense, although reworking her 4th is not an easy question nor task considering how many people are used to not playing the game while using Mesa.

5 minutes ago, DroopingPuppy said:

That's the reason why Ash is terrible. It is too uncomfortable, like as the game punishes you for try to use Bladestorm.

I don't say for its damage output. I just say that it is too annoy to activate. The stupid 'mark' mechanism must be removed for good.

But Ash is not terrible. Put more than 10 minutes into playing him and you'll see how freaking amazing he still is, for anyone who isn't a lazy spoiled sourpus bum  about his Bladestorm rework that is. Ash's problem comes from Saryns, Mesas, Volts and all the other nukers and nuke weapons like Bramma who clear rooms and tilesets in seconds. He doesn't get to use his Bladestorm because it isn't an instant-win button any more.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Acersecomic

[Pie_mastyr]

1 minute ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's because it isn't an aoe. You are comparing what amounts to a snipe to what amounts to carpet bombing.

If it's a question of "degree of awfulness" then any degree applies... As such, the answer would be: Probably.

Regard that they didn't nerf the ability—They made it onerous to use instead.

That's not to say I don't think it could be improved... But one of those improvements shouldn't be an increase in DPS.

If it's easier to use, or use repeatedly, it's DPS is increased.

Your idea makes it less onerous to use, and for that reason, the answer is: Probably.

 

I love how you are somehow under the impression bladestorm was changed because it was ever op. It was changed because players were essentially watching a cinematic play out for 20 to 30 seconds with no way to exit. The clones were added in to keep the idea of assassinating a group of targets,  but without having the controls taken away and to buff the speed it killed by 2-3x depending on whether you wanted to partake. 

There was one point in time where ash saw some serious use and that was due to a power strength stacking bug in relic missions. Even then it was still a relatively niche pick.

Bladestorm has always struggled with scaling content, though bleed and finisher damage help a lot. 

Afaik DEs has changes have only ever buffed bladestorm dps, user experience or bug fixed him getting invincibility.

Unless I'm forgetting some magical period in time between old bladestorm and the clone based one.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

48 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Glass cannon...  Because the tankiness you mention comes from timed abilities, those abilities aren't 100% even when active, and her armor is lackluster.

By that logic frames like gara, nezha, hell even chroma are glass cannons. While mesa isnt a tank like generic MMO’s have tanks, she is one of the tankiest warframes and that’s just a simple fact. 

48 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Mesa is about as glassy as the rest of cannon frames get in this game which is why I call her a glass cannon.
 

She is not. The rest of the Cannon Frames (High damage) would include banshee, saryn, ember, volt, and probably ash. All of these are significantly squishier then mesa. 

48 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Saying she's a tank is like saying Loki or Volt is a tank imo.

except she has 95% dr, and they dont. No other frames gets that much dr on button press except Gauss, but he still has to max out redline first. 

48 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

In fact, they both qualify moreso as tanks compared to Mesa...I don't see them as tanks though.

loki and volt? Tanks? No, you were right earlier when you said they werent tanks, because that is true. However, when it comes to warframe tanks we usually see who has the highest ehp and slap “tank” on them, and by that metric mesa is a tank, way more so then loki or volt

48 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Calling her a glass cannon might be a bit of hyperbole on my part... But calling her "a tank by every definition" would be hyperbole on yours.

Both are hyperbole. She is not a glass cannon because she is made of much stronger stuff then glass. Likewise, she is not a “tank by every definition” because warframe doesnt have true definitions for tanks. 

[Pie_mastyr]

4 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Make her more like Excalibur perhaps? Instead of having Exalted Aimbot, she could have a pair of really damn good Semi-Revolvers with no recoil, infinite punch-through, and very high damage/cc/cd/sc stats. Make it an overpowered weapon but make the players do all the work. She should then be able to move without an augment a well.

Her augment could change to the weapons being automatic, have travel speed but be homing to the nearest aimed enemy. Similarly to Buzlok, just without the beacon.

I think this sounds reasonable and makes sense, although reworking her 4th is not an easy question nor task considering how many people are used to not playing the game while using Mesa.

But Ash is not terrible. Put more than 10 minutes into playing him and you'll see how freaking amazing he still is, for anyone who isn't a lazy spoiled sourpus bum  about his Bladestorm rework that is. Ash's problem comes from Saryns, Mesas, Volts and all the other nukers and nuke weapons like Bramma who clear rooms and tilesets in seconds. He doesn't get to use his Bladestorm because it isn't an instant-win button any more.

I mean it wasn't an instant win, it was cast and type memes into chat while you whittle down enemies. Old bladestorm was fine till 3/4s of the old starchart, where he simply just didnt do enough damage. That's why they added the damage tie in with combo multiplier. But all that amounted to was a boost in base damage with extra steps. A very nice boost but still fell off far sooner than most other frames. Unless you had a fantastic, purpose built team to focus on bladestorm.

But that comes back to bladestorm biggest issue. It's really good but everyone needs to play along. 

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

All this bring back old bladestorm is gonna get pressure put on Mesa. Saryn was already contemplated on last year. Bladestorm has the same reason world on fire had to be changed 

except other people couldn’t even kill enemies in bladestorm. 
Ash has slash and finisher damage. 
In the hind sight he will be reworked to be Nerfed again 

so what’s the reasoning, DE says “Marking enemies was a bad idea” “We want Ash to be as strong as Mesa” “ We miss our room clear abilities , forget new players who we been focused on for years” 

Does that  Sound like SW reasoning nooo

Bladestorm used to scale infinitely, it does not anymore.

and Bringing Mesa in the conversation is gonna give him a buff? You Know what’s more likely to happen. 
 

Old bladestorm no no no no. I see more complaints than solutions. If you want change do it right 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

2 minutes ago, Pie_mastyr said:

I love how you are somehow under the impression bladestorm was changed because it was ever op. It was changed because players were essentially watching a cinematic play out for 20 to 30 seconds with no way to exit. The clones were added in to keep the idea of assassinating a group of targets,  but without having the controls taken away and to buff the speed it killed by 2-3x depending on whether you wanted to partake. 
 

technically both iterations of blade storm used clones, if just wasnt as noticeable with the first because the ash user was also moving about. But you were correct on why it was change. DE said it was too un-interactive for the ash player, while also burdening the squad mates as ash made the whole host of enemies invincible for the duration of the blade storm. 

2 minutes ago, Pie_mastyr said:

There was one point in time where ash saw some serious use and that was due to a power strength stacking bug in relic missions. Even then it was still a relatively niche pick.

Even I dont remember that. I remember nekros having like 30 shadows tho before his rework xD sady his rework and the relic system came to consoles at same time so I never got a chance to try it 😞 

2 minutes ago, Pie_mastyr said:

Bladestorm has always struggled with scaling content, though bleed and finisher damage help a lot. 
 

I would say it struggles with the content, more so specific enemies. Ancient healers/disrupters have always been ash’s bane. Meanwhile due to the true damage he kinda just laughs at all armor and shields. 

2 minutes ago, Pie_mastyr said:

Afaik DEs has changes have only ever buffed bladestorm dps, user experience or bug fixed him getting invincibility.

Unless I'm forgetting some magical period in time between old bladestorm and the clone based one.
 

yea afaik they changed how blade storm functioned but upped the damage of each attack from like 1.5k to 2k (maybe it was 1k to 1.5k) to compensate. Include the fact that damage also scales with combo and ash is definitely a contender for high damage dealt, but he does feel clunky to play at times, and good like marking anything before it dies to a saryn/mesa/kuva bramma if they are in your squad. 

[DroopingPuppy]

18 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

But Ash is not terrible. Put more than 10 minutes into playing him and you'll see how freaking amazing he still is, for anyone who isn't a lazy spoiled sourpus bum  about his Bladestorm rework that is. Ash's problem comes from Saryns, Mesas, Volts and all the other nukers and nuke weapons like Bramma who clear rooms and tilesets in seconds. He doesn't get to use his Bladestorm because it isn't an instant-win button any more.

He is. The mechanism of Bladestorm makes it virtually unusable or very stressful. Then why we are bothered to do that?

Not to mention that it is totally different with his supposed playstyle. Ash is NOT Loki, who plays cloak and dagger. Ash is meant to assail rapidly and retreat, but Bladestorm requires Ash to be hide and mark the target one by one just like as aiming and shoot sniper rifles carefully. How funny, for Ash Prime is come with Vectis Prime! Did you expect Ash to be a sniper? Really? Even so, you can use Vectis Prime instead. NOT Bladestorm. I bet that Vectis Prime would be much better and faster to deliver your fury, despite the fact that sniper rifle is the worst weapon group in Warframe's most missions.

Edited May 4, 2020 by DroopingPuppy

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Ok guys hear me out

Why would i spend more than 3 seconds spining around marking everyone, and watch my clones do the job for me 

Why, instead, not have the clones manifest as an after image from Ash while in bladestorm 

You command the clones by aiming with the peacemaker-like reticle...clones execute, aim somewhere else

It sure will slow down his burst room clearing

But now it's a lot faster and less clunky 

 

It's ok if you don't agree

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

 

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

I'll say this on the Mesa issue:

I, personally, don't see anything wrong with Mesa currently... Glass Cannons are supposed to be able to kill quickly and even with her defensive options she can still be pretty glassy.

Mesa's issue is similar to what Ash's was in that you have a bunch of crap players who run her in groups very inconsiderately.

Because of that, Mesa is a few "not fun to play around" forum complaints away from being being targeted by the nerf hammer.

Sadly, you can't police player behavior to stop those complaints short of ability adjustments. The thing about it is though that those players will just run to whatever they have dubbed the next "easy nuke frame" and start all over.

It's a vicious cycle.

I don't see an issue. 

2 hours ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

We're not "salty nerf herders" for not actively trying to ruin a frame.

That's like saying "Hey let's give every frame an instant nuke! What....no? Wow you're a salty nerf herder bro Hurr durr"

Actively trying to ruin a frame because they think its better than another frame is the definition of salty nerf herder. 

2 hours ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

It is actually.

Mesa presses 4 then holds fire and maybe spins the camera around.

Saryn has to 1 an enemy, hit it/kill it, then constantly run around making sure that she is killing stuff before the spores wipe the map to keep them up. If they die, you have to find another enemy and spore it. 4 can rectify this, but not always.

Equinox presses 4, then has to kill a few enemies manually, then press 4 again. Depending on what you're fighting, you may actually have to kill many enemies to break through their armour! Against the infested, Equinox has to make sure that high priority targets are dead before releasing (healers/disruptors), or you won't kill unless you manually kill a factor of 10.

Out of those 3 examples specifically, seems that Mesa is the most "braindead"! She doesn't even play the regular game, while the other 2 have to to some degree.

Oh yes. Press one then press 4. So difficult. So much more cranial than mesa. Wow. 

 

Equinox has to melee stuff occasionally. Gasp. Sigh. Faint. Wow such skill lol. 

 

Don't let fax stand in the way of a narrative. 

[Pie_mastyr]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

technically both iterations of blade storm used clones, if just wasnt as noticeable with the first because the ash user was also moving about. But you were correct on why it was change. DE said it was too un-interactive for the ash player, while also burdening the squad mates as ash made the whole host of enemies invincible for the duration of the blade storm. 

Even I dont remember that. I remember nekros having like 30 shadows tho before his rework xD sady his rework and the relic system came to consoles at same time so I never got a chance to try it 😞 

I would say it struggles with the content, more so specific enemies. Ancient healers/disrupters have always been ash’s bane. Meanwhile due to the true damage he kinda just laughs at all armor and shields. 

yea afaik they changed how blade storm functioned but upped the damage of each attack from like 1.5k to 2k (maybe it was 1k to 1.5k) to compensate. Include the fact that damage also scales with combo and ash is definitely a contender for high damage dealt, but he does feel clunky to play at times, and good like marking anything before it dies to a saryn/mesa/kuva bramma if they are in your squad. 

I might be remembering this wrong, it has been like 7 years, but the clones weren't originally a part of the ability, and the base damage has been 2k for a as long as i can remember. 

But yeah, biggest issue with current era bladestorm is everything is working against it, including ash himself, since in order to use it you have to look at an enemy then not shoot it. Which obviously is a lot slower depending on what you are firing. 

Going all in on bladestorm is never worth, since you have to many stats to manage and run the risk of getting shot up while waiting for clones to kill. You'd want to use arcane strike and fury for speed and damage. So no trickery for cheesy invis, and no ultimatum for armour. That means either investing in health mods or duration mods for smoke screen. You need at least neutral range in order to target enemies in a decent range. After balancing your str and eff you end up with a packed build. You also kill your melee by hyper focusing on speed. Needless to say you dont see a whole lot of bladestorm focused ash's. 

Obviously that whole scenario is a bit arbitrary but I bring it up because most other frames have the option to go all in on their ultimate, but ash's feels like it is tertiary, not really essential to the playstyle. Which is sad cause the base of bladestorm is actually pretty cool. 

[Yakhul]

3 hours ago, anarchy753 said:

Because Mesa's ult is one of the most problematic abilities in the game right now, for how braindead it is to kill things with absolutely no effort, at huge range and basically ruin any form of fun the other 3 teammates have because stuff just dies instantly as it spawns.

Mesa requires line of sight for peacemaker to work properly. You want braindead? Saryn spores. More braindead than that cannot get. Ohh wait, equinox exist, so does banshee soundquake builds.

[Jim22]

3 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

Mesa requires line of sight for peacemaker to work properly. You want braindead? Saryn spores. More braindead than that cannot get. Ohh wait, equinox exist, so does banshee soundquake builds.

and volt with discharge 

[Void_Ocelot]

1 hour ago, Jim22 said:

how do you think they can balance mesa without making her have to mark enemy's before she can kill them.

She should have to deal with some kind of target-gating mechanic greater than camera spinning much the same as Ash.

Ash is balanced. Mesa is a fun vacuum.

[Pie_mastyr]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

Ok guys hear me out

Why would i spend more than 3 seconds spining around marking everyone, and watch my clones do the job for me 

Why, instead, not have the clones manifest as an after image from Ash while in bladestorm 

You command the clones by aiming with the peacemaker-like reticle...clones execute, aim somewhere else

It sure will slow down his burst room clearing

But now it's a lot faster and less clunky 

 

It's ok if you don't agree

I think a lot of your grievances come from being a console player. Which I totally understand, but it's a huge move from an assassination ability.

A different idea like Making the reticle larger, or giving aim snapping could be a interesting change. Make it so channeling bladestorm gives the player a buff to their ability to aim, then make the clones a secondary part of it. Was gonna add a guaranteed bleed on hit to marked target but that's just stealing from garuda

Bladestorm actually is pretty engaging and fun on pc. It needs some qol tweaks but the core gameplay of picking on groups with your gank squad is one thing I'd rather not give up. Theres a bit of set up, then execution. it has a unique rythm. Just spewing out clones seems to kind of water this down imho

[DroopingPuppy]

2 minutes ago, Void_Ocelot said:

She should have to deal with some kind of target-gating mechanic greater than camera spinning much the same as Ash.

Ash is balanced. Mesa is a fun vacuum.

Balanced for lackluster, you mean.

[DroopingPuppy]

1 minute ago, Pie_mastyr said:

I think a lot of your grievances come from being a console player. Which I totally understand, but it's a huge move from an assassination ability.

A different idea like Making the reticle larger, or giving aim snapping could be a interesting change. Make it so channeling bladestorm gives the player a buff to their ability to aim, then make the clones a secondary part of it. Was gonna add a guaranteed bleed on hit to marked target but that's just stealing from garuda

Bladestorm actually is pretty engaging and fun on pc. It needs some qol tweaks but the core gameplay of picking on groups with your gank squad is one thing I'd rather not give up. Theres a bit of set up, then execution. it has a unique rythm. Just spewing out clones seems to kind of water this down imho

Not only console gamers are argue about Bladestorm. It sucks like hell even with mouse and keyboard which is the superior controller over console pads.