How Do We Break out of the AoE Meta

[Yakhul]

3 hours ago, Savire510 said:

Yeah, aoe meta is just bramma.

Bramma needs to be nerfed.

But it already got a very heavy nerf. A 90% aoe fall off nerf. 

I think you just want to nerf it just because of it.

A nerf is not the only solution. Unless you want another catchmoon type situation to happen. Literally all I see is people crying and asking for the bramma to be nerfed, instead of giving possible options to control the damage output of the bramma.

[ant99999]

53 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

AoE Weapons and abilities are most fun and most powerful. Are you proposing NEFfffffSss???? DE has been destroying meta AoE stuff from the game forever and player base are angry about it always and then many quit. We need to expand AoE and restore previous AoE meta in all categories to being players back,  not nerfing it. 

I'm sorry, have you read it through? Or is it some kind of post-post-post irony?

[Savire510]

7 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

But it already got a very heavy nerf. A 90% aoe fall off nerf.

Ah, so clearly bramma is fine and balanced now.

10 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

I think you just want to nerf it just because of it.

Nah, bramma is clearly overpowering every other weapon. No reload, basicaly infinite ammo, stagger can be ignored with primed sure footed, giant slash procs with hunter munitions, high single target damage, bramma even with that 90% nukes entire rooms. Just compare Bramma to every other explosive weapon. To every other kuva weapon. There is no doubt.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

On the bramma, I in another post mentioned i expect the ammo capacity and fire rate of the bramma to be lowered in the future.

I cannot see it staying where it is atm, simply because it is so overwhelmingly good atm.

Edited May 7, 2020 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[(XBOX)Calliber]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

On the bramma, I in another post mentioned i expect the ammo capacity and fire rate of the bramma to be lowered in the future.

I cannot see it staying where it is atm, simply because it is so overwhelmingly good atm.

It's the most likely compromise and reasonable

[grindbert]

there is nothing wrong with the AoE meta. the goal is to kill hordes of enemies so obviously aoe is better than anything else.

if i had to shoot every enemy individually i would probably quit playing as this appears so tedious that it's beyond any reasonable fun-pain-ratio. if you want to shoot enemies individually i suggest playing destiny 2.

[SneakyErvin]

28 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

But it already got a very heavy nerf. A 90% aoe fall off nerf. 

I think you just want to nerf it just because of it.

A nerf is not the only solution. Unless you want another catchmoon type situation to happen. Literally all I see is people crying and asking for the bramma to be nerfed, instead of giving possible options to control the damage output of the bramma.

That fall off nerf didnt do squat for the bramma though. It still has the cluster mechanic that makes it wipe out trash just the same, which also helps it stack insane amounts of damage on heavy targets. If Bramma was just a single projectile AoE weapon the fall off would be notable, but it isnt since it has the clusters. It has so many benefits that makes it leagues better than anything else that is designed for ranged AoE clearing. We are at a point where the Kuva Ogris is already good for an AoE weapon, then we have Bramma that is pointlessly OP for an AoE weapon.

[_Mannaroth_]

Lol it's simply not possible to break out of the meta due to its nature.

The meta is a self-sustaining principle, similar to evolution: the challenges (whether or not you can talk about it in the current state of the game is irrelevant) that DE throws at us correspond to the pressure of selection - the meta is now the most effective form of advancement that develops out of this pressure (like the evolutionary development of a species).
With each change of challenge, the meta does not break but merely shifts and adapts to the new circumstances (i.e. if DE nerfs the Kuva Bramma, players will simply move on to the next better AoE weapon).

The only thing where you can "break out" is the way you deal with the meta: You can either follow it or you can ignore it and find your own playstyle.

 

[(XBOX)Phantom Clip]

By changing all weapons and frames into skins. 

Basically remove all abilities and weapons and replace with generic models.

I'm ALWAYS going to build for meta and speedrun in every game because it works. I haven't played a shooter type game where weapons were equal.

Some warframes and arcanes buff damage output. I'll just take next best aoe weapon and buff damage with a Chroma/Harrow/Rhino or some other frame that buffs. Add some speed and still clear missions just as fast.

If all aoe weapons get nerfed beyond usage, I'll switch to high fire rate rifles like Soma or Gorgon, add punch through maybe a riven as well. Use those same buff frames and again, clear way faster than others. Not to mention pistols like Nukor/Catchmoon/Twin kohmak

Even something like a speedy Gauss/Loki/Volt/Wukong with ANY melee weapon. Maybe add some melee range and kill half the map while you still dropping into mission.

Bramma is very casual player friendly. Often times I don't even notice a player using it because I'm always killing far ahead of everyone else or using CC type frame like Vauban (drop a few orbs) or nuke/map wipe frame. Maybe I'll notice a Mirage because of the clones.

You show up with Hydroid/Frost with a Rubico/Braton for an exterminate mission I feel for you. 

Until you can build and try different frames, you're going to have a hard time. Because there are plenty ways to kill faster than someone using a bramma. You just might not like it.

TL,DR; warframe players will always find a way to cheese. Then make youtube video for others to copy. Effectively keeping the "meta" forever alive. No way around it

[Diavoros]

The game is an horde shooter, we are always facing several enemies at once in regular gameplay so anything that can wipe a lot of them at once is what will be preferred to use, the only exceptions would be arena/index that has fewer, tougher enemies, or boss fights.
Now, I would love if the game offered more gameplay diversity giving room for stealth or other combat scenarios that didn't require to nuke the map in order to clear efficiently a combat-based game mode.

[Yakhul]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That fall off nerf didnt do squat for the bramma though. It still has the cluster mechanic that makes it wipe out trash just the same, which also helps it stack insane amounts of damage on heavy targets. If Bramma was just a single projectile AoE weapon the fall off would be notable, but it isnt since it has the clusters. It has so many benefits that makes it leagues better than anything else that is designed for ranged AoE clearing. We are at a point where the Kuva Ogris is already good for an AoE weapon, then we have Bramma that is pointlessly OP for an AoE weapon.

I still don't see anywhere how to make the bramma not so overpowered, WITHOUTH dropping a giant nerf hammer on it like it happened to the catchmoon. 

Who knows how many bramma doomsayers are here, that secretly use the weapon, but complain about it very vocally in the forums.

Allow me to start: how bout y'all stop with the crying about a single explosive weapon, and start asking to buff the other explosive weapons? Bring the likes of ogris, zarr, tonkor, etc,  to the power levels of the bramma. Make everyone happy, instead of making only the portion of the players who dislike the bramma, happy.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Yakhul

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

25 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

I still don't see anywhere how to make the bramma not so overpowered, WITHOUTH dropping a giant nerf hammer on it like it happened to the catchmoon. 

Who knows how many bramma doomsayers are here, that secretly use the weapon, but complain about it very vocally in the forums.

Allow me to start: how bout y'all stop with the crying about a single explosive weapon, and start asking to buff the other explosive weapons? Bring the likes of ogris, zarr, tonkor, etc,  to the power levels of the bramma. Make everyone happy, instead of making only the portion of the players who dislike the bramma, happy.

Cant make everyone happy. If all explosion based weapons were as good as bramma then no one would ise the projectile or hit scan weapon. This suggestion is literally counter to the idea of this topic, which is trying to get single target weapons to be more viable over aoe based ones.

Nerfs are needed, constantly buffing everything will not create balance, just powercreep to high heaven.

I like brammas power but i think it could be reduced in fire rate and ammo capacity. Something like 3x the time to fire like lenz and a third the ammo capacity.

[844448]

You see that follow through mechanic on melee where the next enemy hit on the same hit will take less damage? Put the system to AoE weapons (for example, ignis with 100 damage and 0.7 follow through means the second enemy hit will take (100 * 0.7) damage, means 70 damage on second enemy, third enemy will take (70 * 0.7) damage, means 49 damage on third enemy, and it keeps going until it reaches the max punch through (projectile no longer go through enemies)

Now, excuse me while I make some popcorn to enjoy while posting this on feedback

[phoenix1992]

I love such kind of topics!

They always ask the wrong type of questions like :

1. Aoe bad, because it is not fun, right?
2. Do you think of the new players?
3. Why should Single Target weapons/frames do Single target when they can do AoE?

Instead of a more simple one : Why are you using as benchmark content that was always meant to be trivial? 
Do you really thing that you multi forma Kuva Tonkor/Bramma/Shedu/Whatever is the king of meta should struggle to do it's job versus enemies under 100 (or higher with the recent changes)?

Considering Snipers and such, they have a place and time, and if you insist on bringing a Sniper to a zerg fest - tie it with Mag/Nova and resolve your problem. 

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

I use bramma in solo missions to not annoy others. It's going to be nerfed because it's being overused just like the catchmoon, that's a fact

Edited May 7, 2020 by (XB1)C11H22O11

[ant99999]

2 hours ago, _Mannaroth_ said:

Lol it's simply not possible to break out of the meta due to its nature.

 

4 hours ago, ant99999 said:

Which means it can't be 'good' or 'bad', it just is there. And for the players sticking to it it means just that - being efficient. Not the only choice but the prefered one.

The question is not in it's existence, but in it's contrast to the other tactics out there.

We can't break it literally. We can however put more gameplay options closer to each other in terms of efficiency. And building variations will help with that.

In Path of Exile which I already referenced, balance is nowhere near perfect, however the sheer number of possibilities translates there in lots of viable gameplay options.

Warframe on the other hand too often just cuts entire archetypes of weapons out of its balance system, narrowing down the variability to laughable numbers. This is the consequence of its rather limited building strategy (mandatory mods, useless weapon types, etc.)

I try to make it more diverse with my idea, with more options in the end becoming viable.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

The Bramma is up against Ember, Mirage, Saryn, Volt and a host of other powers that can be chained together to flat out deny a player a kill for the entirety of the mission if the other player using such meta frames is selfish enough to do so...So any AOE weapon that can get the euphoria of numbers flashing across your screen is welcomed and pursued and then used' till the forums fill up with complaints..

If you want to change it..you have nerf hammer all nuke frames into the ground so every frame is on a equal footing while reinstating self damage. Congratulations you've angered 90% of your player base...

I have a Bramma and I like it..But I use it for solo missions or arbitration where it's actually welcomed as everyone in there are pushing for the hour to three hours mark while using all kinds of other weapons in the normal star map like the Kuva Karrack to the Stratavar Prime... 

...But, I keep my Bramma out of the lower planets unless I'm solo or forgot to remove it after a log in.... because I get it....It sucks when you can't kill anything and someone else is racing infront of you clearing the tile sets completely making you wonder why you're even there in the first place beyond one more choice at the end for a prime relic drop. But you get that with a Ember who makes sure they are always ahead of you as well..so please make a post about how they need to be removed as well.

Just know this' the Bramma will be nerfed regardless of everyone complaining..All they are doing is riding the normal DE weapon cycle so they can gloat at the end of the life of the weapon when DE has decided a new variation will be introduced in a few months time. SO the nerfs are going happen whether you wrote a six page essay on why it should killed with fire or if you did not.

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2020 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[ant99999]

11 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I love such kind of topics!

They always ask the wrong type of questions like :

1. Aoe bad, because it is not fun, right?
2. Do you think of the new players?
3. Why should Single Target weapons/frames do Single target when they can do AoE?

Instead of a more simple one : Why are you using as benchmark content that was always meant to be trivial? 
Do you really thing that you multi forma Kuva Tonkor/Bramma/Shedu/Whatever is the king of meta should struggle to do it's job versus enemies under 100 (or higher with the recent changes)?

Am I somehow using my English wrong in the OP, or is it targeted to someone else?

Because I state more or less the opposite

1. Aoe bad, because it is not fun, right? No, It's the opposite. AoE weaponry is the only fun one I see in the game, and it is quite good

2. Do you think of the new players? Literally never mentioned them

3. Why should Single Target weapons/frames do Single target when they can do AoE? Yeah, that's closer to the point. My idea is: they should do AoE or some other form of multi-target damage.

Why are you using as benchmark content that was always meant to be trivial? Because the topic is about solving problems with the meta, which is the most trivial content by definition. And if you're speaking about the enemy level after which most AoE weapons begin to fall off, those levels are hardly encountered at all unless you're an endurance runs enthusiast.

Do you really thing that you multi forma Kuva Tonkor/Bramma/Shedu/Whatever is the king of meta should struggle to do it's job versus enemies under 100 (or higher with the recent changes)? No, I do not. At all. I think the opposite to that. The ones that are not the meta kings should do their job on a level competitive to the meta, hence my proposed changes.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, ant99999 said:

Why are you using as benchmark content that was always meant to be trivial? Because the topic is about solving problems with the meta, which is the most trivial content by definition. And if you're speaking about the enemy level after which most AoE weapons begin to fall off, those levels are hardly encountered at all unless you're an endurance runs enthusiast.

 

Really?

Where does it state that Meta is the most trivial content by definition?

 

1 minute ago, ant99999 said:

Do you really thing that you multi forma Kuva Tonkor/Bramma/Shedu/Whatever is the king of meta should struggle to do it's job versus enemies under 100 (or higher with the recent changes)? No, I do not. At all. I think the opposite to that. The ones that are not the meta kings should do their job on a level competitive to the meta, hence my proposed changes.

META.

Most Efficient Tactic Available.

Is it more efficient to snipe down a target that has a specific weak point, invulnerability phase, needs higher attention, ETC ETC, or to whack it over the head with a Bramma?
It it more efficient to maw down the horde's of infantry with an big serving of carpet bombing, or to take off your Lanka and do no scope shenanigans?

The thingy is that you want to change a mechanic based on the assumption, that there is no place for ST pick weapons, which is simply not true. And the notion, that *well yeah, but it matters only on high levels* is also silly - this is the only place in which your gear will actually be matter, everything else you do, you do for fun. You can't have the cake and not eat it at the same time considering the overall difficulty of the game.

 

[ant99999]

7 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Really?

Where does it state that Meta is the most trivial content by definition?

 

7 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

META.

Most Efficient Tactic Available.

You kinda did it yourself. Most efficient means least difficult, means most trivial. Even if it can't be considered trivial by itself, it is the most so in comparison to non-meta options.

9 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Is it more efficient to snipe down a target that has a specific weak point, invulnerability phase, needs higher attention, ETC ETC, or to whack it over the head with a Bramma?

If you are facing a Nox for example, you will have less problems by sniping him in the head, which I consider more trivial option then repeatedly body-shooting him with a Bramma (from my experience at least) however Noxes maybe make a 1/20 of an average Grineer horde, the rest being lancers and such, which are far better dealt with by a Bramma. Overal AoE is far superior to non-AoE, single-target weapons being at most a back up option for weak spots. And most of the time you won't even bother switching weapons for killing them anyway.

15 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

The thingy is that you want to change a mechanic based on the assumption, that there is no place for ST pick weapons, which is simply not true.

Even if they have some presence in a form of headshotting an occasional Nox (Ignoring the fact they also have a dominant meta among them, such as Tombfinger or Rubico in comparison to some Spectra), I think they would be appreciated more if you could use them as your main killing method.

19 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

And the notion, that *well yeah, but it matters only on high levels* is also silly - this is the only place in which your gear will actually be matter, everything else you do, you do for fun. You can't have the cake and not eat it at the same time considering the overall difficulty of the game.

Not fun, progression. Endurance runs have absolutely no purpose at all, they are meaningless other than as an opportunity to rise your self-esteem somehow, because the game does not consider them an achievment of any goal. Which is why I only pay attention to those parts of the game which actually reward you with something, and they so happen to be under lvl 120 99% of the time.

I think I shouldn't go too much into why only the parts that grant you progression matter. If they didn't, no one would've ever invented the looter shooter genre.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, ant99999 said:

You kinda did it yourself. Most efficient means least difficult, means most trivial. Even if it can't be considered trivial by itself, it is the most so in comparison to non-meta options.

 

This is not what it means. Difficulty is subjective matter, effectiveness is not. It is difficult to jump over a pitfall, but it sure is more effective than going around, as long as you can actually execute the jump. 

If you insist on substituting ease for effectiveness, you may as well as change how you approach the subject.
 

2 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

If you are facing a Nox for example, you will have less problems by sniping him in the head, which I consider more trivial option then repeatedly body-shooting him with a Bramma (from my experience at least) however Noxes maybe make a 1/20 of an average Grineer horde, the rest being lancers and such, which are far better dealt with by a Bramma. Overal AoE is far superior to non-AoE, single-target weapons being at most a back up option for weak spots. And most of the time you won't even bother switching weapons for killing them anyway.

 

Another perception.

You would body shot, because "it is more trivial" (again the substitution), even though it is not as efficient neither for time, ammunition or proc perspective (arcanes/mods). 

 

6 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Even if they have some presence in a form of headshotting an occasional Nox (Ignoring the fact they also have a dominant meta among them, such as Tombfinger or Rubico in comparison to some Spectra), I think they would be appreciated more if you could use them as your main killing method.

 

You really think that ST weapons are used only on Nox? Baffling, but not actually surprising. 

 

7 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Not fun, progression. Endurance runs have absolutely no purpose at all, they are meaningless other than as an opportunity to rise your self-esteem somehow, because the game does not consider them an achievment of any goal. Which is why I only pay attention to those parts of the game which actually reward you with something, and they so happen to be under lvl 120 99% of the time.

 

This is again, based on some mighty assumptions.


Let me clarify couple of things, since the topic is starting to show more and more of the "i don't know about certain aspects of the game".

a) Eidolons exist, and for majority of the loadouts you are focusing on Front loaded burst weapons.
b) Boss fights exist, and you do not use Bramma to whack a Leviathan, unless you have a hilarious amount of time and ammo pads.
c) Most mission objectives don't go with the notion "It is most EFFICIENT" to spam weapon damage. Is it more "easy" to run down on Interception point and spam? Yes. Is it more efficient, no. Same for Exterminations, Captures, Spy, Sabotage and so on. Not to even mention that staying semi afk is even easier in most of those mods with Lock down and immunities. You point at the endurance runs, but it is literally the only place in which you want to spam as much AoE as possible.
d) There are frames that can turn Single Target weapons into AoE monsters.
e) Poe and Orb valis (the maps, not the boss fights) favor weapons with higher than mid range, but again we ask the question "is your definition of difficulty based on data or on laziness press a different combination of buttons"
f) There are weapon classes that are neither Snipers, nor carpet bombers but they actually fall into pitfalls of "neither easy, nor efficient" yet they are still some of the most picked weapons, how do they fit in your subject?


Final resolution : Not everything is a Corinth, nor it should be.
 

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Yakhul said:

I still don't see anywhere how to make the bramma not so overpowered, WITHOUTH dropping a giant nerf hammer on it like it happened to the catchmoon. 

Who knows how many bramma doomsayers are here, that secretly use the weapon, but complain about it very vocally in the forums.

Allow me to start: how bout y'all stop with the crying about a single explosive weapon, and start asking to buff the other explosive weapons? Bring the likes of ogris, zarr, tonkor, etc,  to the power levels of the bramma. Make everyone happy, instead of making only the portion of the players who dislike the bramma, happy.

Reduce the damage of it, simple as that. There are plenty of useful explosive weapons that they can use as a mark for where they want the total base damage to end up when main shot and clusters are included. And the nerf to catchmoon kept it as a very viable and balanced secondary, it is just more inline now and not the only secondary option.

Plenty very surely whine and use it. I used it myself for quite a while but simply got tired of the cheesyness of it. I currently only use it on Garuda in the few cases I take her to Kuva Disruption fissures due to the silly amount of slash procs it can provide with her #4. But that is maybe 1 in 10 runs just to goof around.

The thing is, the other explosive weapons are already strong enough. They arent ment to replace single target weapons. There is a reason why there are AoE weapons and single target weapons. If they were to buff the AoE weapons to Bramma levels they might aswell remove single target guns as a whole. In such a situation they should do the correct thing, adjust the single outlier within the whole class of weapons.

[STUVash]

Il y a 8 heures, ant99999 a dit :

Why instead we don't embrace it and develop this AoE prevalence further? I'm looking at the games like Path of Exile: there you can modify your attacks in most curious ways making even the most modest fireball viable for killing crowds.

Why don't Warframe have something similar. Mods that change the effects of the weapons. A Rubico doesn't need even more damage, why don't we put there a mod making its shots chain between the enemies at the cost of sacrificing damage. Why don't we make Opticor fire a cone of beams instead of just one. Why don't we make Soma P have bullet magnetism so that you don't have to target every single enemy.

Wait. I'm confused. Your title said "How do we break out of the aoe meta" but you're suggesting to have an aoe loadout lot more easily 

 

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

7 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

Add more weakspots based enemies. With Scarlet Spear, Aerolysts was a great step in this direction and really encouraged using accurate weapon rather than AoE to kill them. You still can use AoE weapons and switch to you accurate single target gun for these traget, but it brings more diresity in you playstyle (and you still can use melee against them).

Uhh pretty sure Aerolysts promoted catchmoon, Arca Plasmor, and Quellor’s alt-fire. You know, the big AoE projectiles

[phoenix1992]

@ant99999 I am currently baking some videos, outside of Snipers is there another weapon you want to see with full AoE potential unloaded?

Edited May 7, 2020 by phoenix1992