Melee 3.0 Genuinely Hurts My Heart and Isn't Fun.

[Andele3025]

On 2020-06-03 at 4:11 PM, Kainosh said:

No they did not. 

They just changed control inputs, and you failed to get used to these.   Its a You problem here.

DE actually cut apart stances and stitched them together wrong while removing subtle features from them.
Just compare old vs new TR (spoilers, ani locked dashes on new TR dont have their distance increased by sprinting/speed, you cant keyboard steer during the 3 vertical flips of august mesto AND lost its free movement during non-dashes); L2P.

[Shinyah]

1) To currently enjoy melee weapons, I feel I have to use "Primed Reach" in every build. Without it, it feels very slow and frustrating to clear enemies in a room.

2) Zaw weapons feel underpowered and not balanced compared to the regular weapons; for exemple :  Have you noticed that every scythe (Reaper prime, Hate,...) has a melee range between 2.7 and 2.9 but when you craft a zaw scythe, it's only 1.8 ?

[taiiat]

yes, what was unique and different Animation wise about most Stances, was removed and now Stances are a lot closer to each other, and all seem to mainly target a goal of offering beyblading AoE spins or otherwise flailing your arms around, rather than distinct tools for different purposes.
not to mention that the neutral and forward Animations for almost every single Stance in the game are backwards.

 

that being said, there are a few features here and there that are nice to have, like easier access to certain types of swings that previously required you to flail around for a while first. but there are again few and far between.

i also wonder where the better reaction sort of stuff was supposed to come in - sure we definitely can cancel out of Melee sometimes but there's still Animation locking there. less of it, but it's still there and that means still times that we try to adapt to changing situations but the game says no.

not to mention that Air Melee is literally useless since they removed the Acceleration impulse from it, because now Air Melee can't hit jack all, when before even with the push forwards(and with old Range Mods) it struggled a bit. it needs that push forwards for you to be able to hit the Enemy(ies) in front of you at all. without it you just miss whatever is directly in front of you time and time again.

lastly i'm not that happy about Attack Speed being much, much more important than it was previously, necessitating that Players stack Attack Speed on every single Melee Weapon, because if you don't your Melee Weapon is just objectively bad.
but that's the status quo for Warframe, i guess.

 

on a side note though, forced Status from the Stance not matching your main IPS Type for the Weapon is.......... actually a good thing? it means you get that Status Effect for free even though your Weapon was very unlikely to apply it itself. that's objectively a good thing.

 

but it's k, i just beyblade now more than i did before because it's largely just as effective as it was in the past, so it's still often strictly the best way to use Melee. especially with the tools Melee offers being gutted so mcuh, so that most normal Animations struggle to offer useful features.

Edited June 4, 2020 by taiiat

[Kainosh]

19 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

DE actually cut apart stances and stitched them together wrong while removing subtle features from them.
Just compare old vs new TR (spoilers, ani locked dashes on new TR dont have their distance increased by sprinting/speed, you cant keyboard steer during the 3 vertical flips of august mesto AND lost its free movement during non-dashes); L2P.

I absolutely can steer my dashes and vertical flips with mouse. 

And...I don't need to increase dash distance....because I hit reliably with what I have.    I don't have any problems hitting stuff exactly where I want, with what I want.

 

Just because I don't struggle with controls as much as you do, doesn't mean that I don't know how to play.

[Andele3025]

14 hours ago, Kainosh said:

I absolutely can steer my dashes and vertical flips with mouse. 

Mouse, not keyboard AS I SAID. Slide attacks keyboard steer works perfectly fine but certain attacks in stances lost the ability to do so FOR NO REASON (while a rare few gained free movement which should have been the default instead.

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And...I don't need to increase dash distance....because I hit reliably with what I have.  

DOESNT MATTER, you not wanting to use tools doesnt mean everyone else should lose them.

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  I don't have any problems hitting stuff exactly where I want, with what I want.

Nor do i because #*!% using stances unless there is a status proc because slide attacks kept all the functionality without any of the downsides like animation locks. Tho seeing how you're arguing against skill in melee id guess you use auto lockon so thats also a non-argument.

Just because you dont understand the value of mechanics doesnt mean they shouldnt exist.

[Kainosh]

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Mouse, not keyboard AS I SAID.

If melee steering doesn't work with "WSAD melee aiming" option enabled, then its a BUG.  And AFAIK, it was reported many times.

Use mouse until its fixed. Or keep suffering with broken kb controls.....Your choice.

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

you not wanting to use tools doesnt mean everyone else should lose them.

It was removed for a reason.   That "1 extra meter of dash distance if you hold W".... It happened due to stacking movement glitch.  That's not even a "tool" or solid "mechanic"...And it doesn't require any "skill" to use..... people used it to compensate for their inability to calculate distance to target.

13 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Nor do i because #*!% using stances unless there is a status proc because slide attacks kept all the functionality without any of the downsides like animation locks. Tho seeing how you're arguing against skill in melee id guess you use auto lockon so thats also a non-argument.

Dunno. I use stances and combos just fine. New Gap closing moves give me enough combat mobility to not need any slide spam.  And its really fast to switch combo types, so I don't feel any animation locks or restrictions.  

Autotargeting feature is used in many skill based melee games as basic feature.    Its not a PvP game, so autotargeting is a preference option. Not a "skill" factor.  It also has its drawbacks that make it unsuitable for some weapon types.

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, Kainosh said:

If melee steering doesn't work with "WSAD melee aiming" option enabled, then its a BUG.  And AFAIK, it was reported many times.

Use mouse until its fixed. Or keep suffering with broken kb controls.....Your choice.

Except for the little fact of NO, thats not how that works as keyboard steer ALWAYS worked with mouse aim on AND STILL DOES ON SLIDE ATTACKS.

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It was removed for a reason.   That "1 extra meter of dash distance if you hold W".... It happened due to stacking movement glitch.  That's not even a "tool" or solid "mechanic"...And it doesn't require any "skill" to use..... people used it to compensate for their inability to calculate distance to target.

No it wasnt, proof is that its not gone completely from the game, just from stances that got butchered and isnt a glitch any more than dodge roll keeping momentum is. Your inability to know the distance a sprint gap closer vs regular gap closer vs slide tapped gap closer isnt the problem of people that actually know how to use said mechanics when they have the option to do so.

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Dunno. I use stances and combos just fine. New Gap closing moves give me enough combat mobility to not need any slide spam.  And its really fast to switch combo types, so I don't feel any animation locks or restrictions.  

Except moves lost keyboard steer (or in some cases like TRs pause combo, got their hitboxes gutted). You not being skilled enough to notice what a animation lock is and how the loss of control impacts gameplay isnt my problem.

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Autotargeting feature is used in many skill based melee games as basic feature.    Its not a PvP game, so autotargeting is a preference option. Not a "skill" factor.  It also has its drawbacks that make it unsuitable for some weapon types.

And proof that you have no place in the discussion as you arent even using any of the relevant mechanics and just autotarget mashing.
P.S. No, its a basic console compensation feature, not a game feature/mechanic on its own.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Andele3025

[Kainosh]

3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

ALWAYS worked with mouse aim on AND STILL DOES ON SLIDE ATTACKS.

Ah.... You mean that slight movement you were able to do while attack animation plays?  You want to be able to slowly move around while attack animation plays?

Is that it?  

 

[Kainosh]

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except moves lost keyboard steer (or in some cases like TRs pause combo, got their hitboxes gutted). You not being skilled enough to notice what a animation lock is and how the loss of control impacts gameplay isnt my problem.

That specific move from TR works like Streak from DMC series now.    You have to use it from CORRECT distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxmzoxAfOOM

Its boring if it hits everything on its way. That would be a dumbed down, no skill move IMO.

[Andele3025]

20 hours ago, Kainosh said:

That specific move from TR works like Streak from DMC series now.    You have to use it from CORRECT distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxmzoxAfOOM

Its boring if it hits everything on its way. That would be a dumbed down, no skill move IMO.

You do know that RQ Streak has a frontal hitbox all the time, right (since even the video shows so), which is used to trigger the horizontal slash? And that Calma did have its hitbox as a cone infront of you for the whole slidespin before 3.0 but now is literally just missing a part of its hitbox because of where the move was cut apart to be restitched together. Its also why August mesto zaps your camera left/right and doesnt actually move in a straight line anymore.
Not only did you make a completely wrong comparison by not knowing the mechanics of the game you compared the issue to but missed basic facts anyone who used the stances attack to any reasonable level before would know (not that i can blame anyone for not using old pause combos as WF doesnt do keydown/keyup timers well and scales em with attack speed).

21 hours ago, Kainosh said:

Ah.... You mean that slight movement you were able to do while attack animation plays?  You want to be able to slowly move around while attack animation plays?

Is that it?  

 

Yes, player keyboard based diagonal movement proportional to the camera, again, slide attacks still have it. Same way for return of stuff like sprint influencing dash distance.

[Kainosh]

3 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Yes

Hmm.

Went and tested a bit.  No autotargeting,  used TR and then GT Tekko.

I still can land hits perfectly with TR Heavy blades.  GT Tekko was harder to consecutively land tho, as almost all of its combos move you past targets after first 3 hits or so.... Had to "dance" around a bit.   Ah, no range mods in both cases.

I guess ability to move backwards during these combos would allow me to land hits without any extra positioning efforts..... But that's just an awkward way to compensate for stance's flaws.

BTW, Autotargeting and "Target locking" is also used in DMC and you cant even turn it off.  And its used to prevent that "moving past target" thing.  Its just a better solution than being able to move during combos IMO. And I believe in Capcom too....guys know their sht alright.

4 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

RQ Streak has a frontal hitbox all the time

If you target something behind the crowd, it will dash past almost* all enemies, hitting that "back" guy.   Strike only happens at the end of it. And it cleaves all enemies in range of that strike. 

* if enemy is blocking your "path", Nero will strike that blocking enemy instead, even if you are not aiming at it.

I literally just went and checked myself.

So no, Streak has no damage hitbox on its "dash" part.  Dash part has a human sized "trigger" hitbox, that, if entered by a demon, triggers Cleave move that deals damage.

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

Hmm.

Went and tested a bit.  No autotargeting,  used TR and then GT Tekko.

I still can land hits perfectly with TR Heavy blades.  GT Tekko was harder to consecutively land tho, as almost all of its combos move you past targets after first 3 hits or so.... Had to "dance" around a bit.   Ah, no range mods in both cases.

Doesnt matter, hitboxes and mechanical keyboard steer got gutted thus reduced player control.

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

IBTW, Autotargeting and "Target locking" is also used in DMC and you cant even turn it off.  And its used to prevent that "moving past target" thing.  Its just a better solution than being able to move during combos IMO. And I believe in Capcom too....guys know their sht alright.

Except that there is no auto target in DMC and lockon is player press controlled as a modifier much like block can be used in Warframe and can be released without any effect on a attack after the input got recognized (which is why you can do multi grabs with Nero in 5 while juggling a third enemy and keeping a 4th one with HS taps or PL rocket up). It wouldnt need to exist at all if DMC used a crosshair/mouse aim and upshifted higher angle camera, much like pause combos it exists as a console compensation feature.

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

If you target something behind the crowd, it will dash past almost* all enemies, hitting that "back" guy.
 

No, it does the strike on the first hitbox connect. Unlike in DMC5 where (the non ex) Streak has a small frontal hitbox, you can actually see the hitbox of Calma was big before it got part of it chopped off (because of sloppy animation stitching).

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

So no, Streak has no damage hitbox on its "dash" part.  Dash part has a human sized "trigger" hitbox, that, if entered by a demon, triggers Cleave move that deals damage.

You do understand that hitbox (well technically hurtbox) doesnt mean something deals damage, just that it area for other body to trigger a effect. E.g. throws (or pulls) in fighting games. So yeah, Streak has a full frontal hitbox which triggers the horizontal slash JUST AS I SAID IN THE VERY LAST COMMENT. You missing the point and then repeating it wont change the fact of melee 3.0 butchered melee mechanics and that you have no place to note on it "being fine" because you werent using them in the first place.

[Proscriptor]

On 2020-06-03 at 5:47 AM, Maxim_M_Payne said:

Seeing as both the "stats" and "technique" feedback threads are closed, I'm posting a new thead about melee's control changes again. I would have posted sooner to keep those two from being archived, but I was somewhat busy.

don't care if you're busy. put in the effort to write a quality post or don't waste my time

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Melee 3.0 doesn't feel good, it doesn't look good, it causes a disconnect between my key inputs and the actions I do on-screen, and it just isn't the close combat I fell in love with.

vacuous generalized complaints that don't even start to form an argument of any kind

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For the love of God, DE. Hear me out. I can't even leave my blasted house to take refuge in public libraries or a friend's house anymore. 

worthless self-centered drama. what a waste of time.

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I rather enjoyed being able to rampage through a horde of fascist planet-looting clone-Nazis; and most importantly, I liked to be able to rampage through the Grineer in a way that feels right.

vacuous and circular statement. "what i like is what feels right". sure. whatever. epic waste of time. just stop. 

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I have always been a melee-combat main, I used to love every single category of weapon in it, and Valkyr was my absolute fave.

i don't care, not on-topic

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I'd prefer that delight didn't remain in the past-tense for the foreseeable future. The catharsis of pure rampage as Valkyr has been missing for over two years now, and no matter how politely phrased, it feels like you just ignore players' feedback on how the VFX are painful and controls don't feel right.

slowly devolving into unreadable drivel

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I'm updating this tomorrow after a full night's rest, and I'm going to start with two major topics:

 

truly pathetic

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A) My discussions with other players, including several clan-mates, about our melee 3.0 frustrations. I've legitimately gotten more response from fellow Tenno in-game than I ever have from the development team about this matter, but I might as well share the alternative ways I've tried to phrase my irritation and sadness. Buried Debts turned melee bad, and then Old Blood added eight more monumental frustrations, while making half-effort attempts to "restore" manual blocking, and while yes, you lot at DE did FINALLY give us back Sword Alone mode so it actually feels like we're holding our weapons, at the present time it's ruined; because while you did restore it, you also jammed in an asinine, searing-bright flash that happens LITERALLY. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. THAT SOMEBODY DRAWS THEIR MELEE WEAPON. 

the development team doesn't care about you. write in bold letters and do wacko italics and random word underlining as much as you like, this won't change. you are nothing to them. incoherence intensifies. 

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Ahem. Anyway, as you can probably guess, these screenshots of the aforementioned discussions with other players have been self-censored for politeness to you as the development staff, but boy oh boy, am I at wit's end about melee combat.

ahem the "development staff" isn't reading this dreck

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B) The "improvements" to Stances, because they did anything but. Travel distances are non-existent; once-functional hitboxes are broken; status procs caused by Combos don't even match the main damage type of weapons anymore; and some of the coolest of players' all-time absolute favorite moves were removed for absolutely no reason, their stolen name now applied to an infinitely lamer, flailing wreck.

hodge podge of tiny complaints that don't even rise to a start of a analysis of what could be wrong with a major overhaul like melee 3.0

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I can't rightly articulate how awful Swirling Tiger, Crushing Ruin, Final Harbinger, Malicious Raptor, and pretty much ALL of the Heavy Blade Stances now feel to use; but I sure as the Void am going to try.

you can't rightly articulate things, yes. 

 

 

[Twilight-Knight]

There are shorter and more precise points about how melee 3.0 is such a kid's junks than this post.

[DoomFruit]

Honestly, I'm still pissed off that we still don't have the fluidity of motion that quick melee gave us. If I'm holding the A key while meleeing, I expect that I will continue to move left at the same pace that I do normally. If I'm holding S, I expect to move backwards constantly. Being launched forwards or getting glued to the floor every alternate step is not the input that the game is receiving, so why does it feel justified in slapping the controls out of my hands?

Forced melee mode has also made syndicate weapons completely pointless for me since you no longer get the proc while meleeing. That was why I stuck with the sanctigris even after the prime came out - because it would charge up and explode from the shared XP as my squadmates were killing things. Free debuffs, a damage burst and some minor healing as I played normally. Now? It's a flat out downgrade to the tigris prime and relegated to the pile of mastery trash.

[Kainosh]

10 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Doesnt matter, hitboxes and mechanical keyboard steer got gutted thus reduced player control.

My control is still there tho.  Besides, in DMC you cant move during combos too.... im perfectly fine with that.

11 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Except that there is no auto target in DMC

 Attacks like Stinger and Hooks  require  you to hold Targeting.   Its not exactly "manual" turn on/off.....You MUST use it to perform these attacks.   That makes it a "built in" feature of said attacks. 

Also, Aquila (DmC) uses Autotargeting in moves like "Buy in" and when you throw it. 

All V's Demons.  Autotargeting city.  

Its not constant, and used only for attacks that need it, that's true.   But its there.  

11 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

No, it does the strike on the first hitbox connect.

That is exactly what I said.  Read all of it.

This "hitbox" can trigger it too soon, and, if enemies are not grouped up nicely, you can easily miss that guy you aimed for.    That is why I prefer Warframe's version. With no "trigger" hitbox.

I can easily pass grunts, straight to that Nox.  For me, its perfect.  

11 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

You do understand that hitbox (well technically hurtbox) doesnt mean something deals damage

I do. I just thought that you don't.

As you sent this:

On 2020-06-05 at 11:53 PM, Kainosh said:

got their hitboxes gutted

I though you expected ALL enemies to be damaged.     

If you wanted it to trigger upon contact with 1st enemy, you should have said so.

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, Kainosh said:

My control is still there tho.

Because you didnt use anything but mash button and auto target in the first place so, yeah and?

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 Attacks like Stinger and Hooks  require  you to hold Targeting.   Its not exactly "manual" turn on/off.....You MUST use it to perform these attacks.   That makes it a "built in" feature of said attacks. 

They require you to press it as a modifier. Just as block combos. You dont have to actually fight with lock-on on. Again please read comments as this is the 3rd such redundancy.

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That is exactly what I said.  Read all of it.

No, you repeated my point while acting as if making a distinction.

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This "hitbox" can trigger it too soon, and, if enemies are not grouped up nicely, you can easily miss that guy you aimed for.    That is why I prefer Warframe's version. With no "trigger" hitbox.

No, the difference is warframe dashes dont end on hit unless you use lockon and like wasting time and damage thus. Its like the EX streak when you target a enemy far away to cleave through ones nearby. Doesnt change the point that Calma on TR was cut apart and stitched together without a part of the hitbox it had.

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I do. I just thought that you don't.

As you sent this:

I though you expected ALL enemies to be damaged.     

If you wanted it to trigger upon contact with 1st enemy, you should have said so.

Oh god you're really corpus brain repod. They werent effected at all. IT HAS NO HITBOX ON THE PART OF THE SWORD SPIN. AND UNLIKE STREAK IT HAS NO NEED FOR A TRIGGER BECAUSE IT CONSTANTLY DEALS DAMAGE (like EX-Streak, tho tbf the gif has its start corrupted so im not sure if you can see the fact that the sword and body, while enemies well within melee reach, clip right through the bombards). Imagine if Stinger or KCs slam didnt do damage to enemies right infront of Dante.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Andele3025

[Kainosh]

8 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

you're really corpus brain repod.

No u.

Really, by this time you should have already realised that im just baiting you.  Sorry, but I could not resist...you immediately went offensive and were so buying it.... 

I had my fun. I will stop now. Apologies.

[GreyDeath789]

There is a reason I bought so many Stance forma during the garbage event....so I can fix what DE broke for melee.

Eventually, DE will change stances so players can "Valence Fusion" to build stances that suit the play styled enjoyed at the cost of only 5 forma and 3 riven mods for each change.

 

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

Really, by this time you should have already realised that im just baiting you. 

>merely pretending brain repo
Confirmed brain repo.

[Teridax68]

While I personally believe that Melee 3.0 was an improvement over the previous system, I have to agree that it didn't actually deliver on its promises either. The stated goal was to make the system smoother, but melee stances are still full of animation locks, forced movement, and rigid swings that don't allow for any precise targeting. The only major change in that respect is that the movement's been better calibrated to march our regular movement, but it's still nowhere near the free-flowing action we were led to expect. The current system still leads to awkward moments where aiming at a flying enemy and attacking them can lead to a whole lot of nothing until something finally connects, and even in cases of regular ground enemies the hitboxes aren't entirely reliable. As stylish as the stances may be, there's still a fundamental defect in the substance of melee attacking, which should let us aim where we want to hit and hit reliably, but still doesn't deliver on that.

With this in mind, I'd definitely agree that we'll probably be needing another melee rework along the line, ideally something with more developed IK that would adjust our moves to let us hit where we're aiming. That, and the current melee moveset is arguably far too loaded with moves that achieve no apparent purpose of their own, plus a heavy attack mechanic that I'd argue hasn't really added much to melee. Streamlining the entire melee moveset and focusing instead on letting us aim, attack, and move at the same time, as with any gun, would likely lead to a melee system that'd fit Warframe's gameplay a lot better, or at least not get in the way as much.

[George_PPS]

Melee 3.0 in general is huge nerfs to what melee 2.99 could be. The heavy attacks are slow and clunky and NOT FUN. The worse of all is the reduction of max ranges of some meta melees. Why can’t DE just buff the weak ones and keep the best of each revision? Now all melee weapons feel very bland and nothing stands out. That if something is OP will get nerfed is the worse design trend since 2018. This design philosophy means anything fun will get killed and nerfed. So why bother to build up anything? I used to have a set of meta builds for all the best and most popular  melee weapons until DE killed them off one by one. 

[George_PPS]

On 2020-06-07 at 12:51 AM, DoomFruit said:

Honestly, I'm still pissed off that we still don't have the fluidity of motion that quick melee gave us. If I'm holding the A key while meleeing, I expect that I will continue to move left at the same pace that I do normally. If I'm holding S, I expect to move backwards constantly. Being launched forwards or getting glued to the floor every alternate step is not the input that the game is receiving, so why does it feel justified in slapping the controls out of my hands?

Forced melee mode has also made syndicate weapons completely pointless for me since you no longer get the proc while meleeing. That was why I stuck with the sanctigris even after the prime came out - because it would charge up and explode from the shared XP as my squadmates were killing things. Free debuffs, a damage burst and some minor healing as I played normally. Now? It's a flat out downgrade to the tigris prime and relegated to the pile of mastery trash.

Same here. Melee 3.0 destroyed not just damage but also fluidity of melee 2.99. Wish DE could remove these unWarframe melee 3.0 elements and restore that fluidity. I feel that DE hired some designers from other games that are very unWarframe and then put in those elements from other games into Warframe that has now made into a weird game that doesn’t feel Warframe anymore. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by George_PPS