Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.

[addamrobin2]

9 hours ago, Urlan said:

You could get a loose idea of just how few people have actually even done liches by checking your achievements about "Beating a Kuva Lich Commander" with your peers. For the easy to find Steam players, that is 1.7% or less of all players that have played Warframe. I find that we often tend to define ourselves and those we factor to by others, and influence those folk too. You are seeing usage in missions by the same players as yourself. For Xbox One users that is 2% or less of all their players, and for your environment, PS4; that is exactly (at time of this statement) 4.27% of all players who have played PS4 Warframe. That isn't conclave adoption numbers low; but its mighty low for the weapon, one of many mind; to have wide adoption. I am missing stand-alone PC there, but while it could be different, I don't think it will drastically buck the trend. Essentially this first point is a self fulfilling statement, yes folk might very well in you play community niche have the weapon, but its not a wide adoption, quite the opposite in fact!

I expect, if a weapon is having performance issues tied to its visuals; as I stated years ago now in those Simulor related threads; that the visuals be changed to not impact performance as much. In the avenue that the visual is not possible; the weapon should be modified to keep the intent as much as possible without losing power. This is simple design philosophy stuff. On a PS4, I would think this would have been a concern that would have been caught in certification if its particularly harming performance but if its just "yeah, I don't like the bright lights and can't see when I or my allies use it" that isn't a concern of the design; and is largely irrelevant to the discussion of its stats and effect being nerfed, which isn't up for debate - it has been - what could be, is to the degree and if that is alright for such a reward.

The point of the thread is in DE Rebecca's PR tidied statement; but I can summarize in case you forgot as per your last point: the Kuva Bramma was popular relative to the Kuva weapon adoption, and it could be used for clearing rooms; partners and other players that DE listens to felt it should be nerfed to hurt the relative adoption and de incentivize its overall use. To do that, the weapon's range, ammo, bomb-lets reduced in number, and damage were decreased while relative fall-off damage reductions reduced to allow the remaining damage some small relevance. Take away, (practical wise) the weapon's long term in match viability was decreased along with its original stated use of being able to devastate heavies while clearing out their minions. Can it still hurt foes, certainly; just as the Lenz can; or a Dread in one foe's face at a time. Is this a good way of punishing players for the low adoption of this mode? I don't think so, and that it was considered at all (vets figured it would happen due to knowing the trends more than anything) should be telling of mistakes in development to design or a deliberate bait and switch scenario knowing the carrot that factually few players among our more than 24 million "losers" even have obtained as of yet.

 

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

I am using achievements to track players using a weapon, they can't use a weapon on that platform if they have never earned it. Thus they can't count for its popularity, except as a member of the whole. You can reread the statement to better understand, as it is after-all a wall of text compared. Compared to anything else, which I addressed; is a context sensitive statement. I was helping you and anyone else reading and confused understand that context.

 

1) That Which Does Not Kill Us (Kill a Kuva Lich commander) - obtained by killing a Level 5 Kuva Lich

2) We Shape Our Tools (Apply a Mod to a weapon or Warframe) - 48% on Steam

3) Your point?

[Urlan]

2 minutes ago, addamrobin2 said:

 

 

1) That Which Does Not Kill Us (Kill a Kuva Lich commander) - obtained by killing a Level 5 Kuva Lich

2) We Shape Our Tools (Apply a Mod to a weapon or Warframe) - 48% on Steam

3) Your point?

My point is that it shows how many folk have done the thing. What does 48% of folk not using a mod on their weapon or warframe tell you about the total players of that platform and their staying long enough actually customize their gear? This isn't a hard idea. If you have the majority of players on those platforms not having the gear, since they haven't even done the activity; you are not experiencing a glut of the behavior. You sorta proved my point further.

[addamrobin2]

4 hours ago, Urlan said:

My point is that it shows how many folk have done the thing. What does 48% of folk not using a mod on their weapon or warframe tell you about the total players of that platform and their staying long enough actually customize their gear? This isn't a hard idea. If you have the majority of players on those platforms not having the gear, since they haven't even done the activity; you are not experiencing a glut of the behavior. You sorta proved my point further.

1) you don't need a level 5 kuva lich to get a kuva weapon

2) that achievement is automatically applied, it doesn't get taken away/reverted

3) No Longer a Rookie (Reach Rank 2 with any Warframe) - 55.4% weird right?

4) clearly achievement % doesn't mean anything in the actual game, as of writing this, 3 of my public squadmates are spamming Bramma on Mot, Void

[Bandileros]

18 часов назад, addamrobin2 сказал:

1) you don't need a level 5 kuva lich to get a kuva weapon

2) that achievement is automatically applied, it doesn't get taken away/reverted

3) No Longer a Rookie (Reach Rank 2 with any Warframe) - 55.4% weird right?

4) clearly achievement % doesn't mean anything in the actual game, as of writing this, 3 of my public squadmates are spamming Bramma on Mot, Void

Are you still cursing here?
Oh my God.

Personally, I spat on the warframe just like he spat on me. And went to BD. And I advise you.

In a warframe, only a monotonous farm, getting rid of it, I feel great. Like a mountain fell off my shoulders.

Goodbye warframe, you were the worst MMO I played. However, rewarding experience.

[DreadWarlock]

On 2020-06-26 at 6:36 PM, Vajet said:

You are really suggesting that killing a single enemy, or maybe a couple in line with a slow ticking dot actually means something in this game? And even if that's what you measure a good weapon by, there is a whole lot of weapons that do this job a hundred times better than bows. I almost feel stupid by even discussing this. I also do not know what you believe means having 'beat' the Bramma with whatever other bow you are talking about due to your tremendous skill and I don't really care much either. Apart from a very few encounters in this game (where bows also suck at) the majority of content is killing many enemies where as I define good as performing at this as efficiently as possible. And regardless of whether a weapon has a relatively high or low skill cap, you can only influence that by so much. The game features a rather large spectrum of weapons and abilities that alone or combined deal a rather insane amount of damage and are able to deal with enemies up to lvl 9999. But I do not want to start the "what about" game here, just mentioning it because it is what we have to compare powerful weapons against. This why I personally do not find my proposition "ridiculous" and the mentality of flocking can be also applied to you as you seem to single out the bramma as THE overpowered item in the game that needs or needed to be nerfed.

Having played the Bramma changes (you took a rather long while to answer) I don't even think they do anything good. If it was effects that annoyed you, they don't look much better now. You can still mindlessly shoot if you wanted to. The 5 instead 15 ammo change is just a terrible idea because it makes no difference in situations where you have a lot of ammo-dropping enemies thanks to vigilante supplies (the reason why they made this change) but it renders the weapon unplayable in situations where there is no ammo drop at all (like certain boss fights).

P.S.: It is the last argument I will make to this subject. I personally don't even care enough about the bramma but I believe looking at spread sheets of popular items and nerfing them because of their popularity is in general a terrible strategy some game developers following. But I guess it is a "suger bread and whip" kind of strategy that works out alright.

You don't freaking kill a single enemy with a bow, if you can only do that then the problem lies on you, not the weapon. All bows have Punchthrough, you can easily kill lines upon lines of enemies with one shot due to slash procs. Yes those slash procs means something, if you cannot see this then you're playing at levels that a mosquito is strong enough to kill enemies.

"there is a whole lot of weapons that do this job a hundred times better than bows"

You're talking out of your butthole, few weapons can consistently proc one-shotting bleeding status like bows can. Especially now that bleeding needs viral to properly scale

Your whole argument is a you problem.

"I also do not know what you believe means having 'beat' the Bramma with whatever other bow you are talking about due to your tremendous skill and I don't really care much either"

I'm showing you how ridiculous your argument is, a "single target weapon" was more effective than a top tier AoE weapon by the use of skillful shots and actual preparation. Which shows that the whole "Weapon's shouldn't be nerfed mentality, other weapons should be brought to it's level", is bullcrap. It shows that people who overuse certain weapons can't aim for crap. Don't properly use the game's systems to their favor and therefore cannot be trusted in their judgement of a weapon.

[NoSpax]

Am 25.6.2020 um 19:05 schrieb jumbomikehotdog:

ALSO, WHAT'S THE FREAKING POINT OF CLUSTER BOMB EXPLOSIVE WEAPONS? SHOOT ONE ENEMY AT A TIME? 

I don't like calling people stupid, but I've been playing this game since 2014 so I'm f**king entitled to do so. 

MR fodder now.

I was once a Penta main, formed the f**k out of that thing, awesome handling, my aim and timing was top. Icould even do ricochet and other style kills.

Until one the max Ammo was reduced to garbage levels, contrary to the top ammo efficency it had before. The weapon is now unusable after a couple of shots, which explains why (almost) no one uses it and the 5-star Riven dispo*. You need to carry a strong sidearm, which all of them are crap. I just slap one in, so the secondary slot doesn't feel alone.

TL;DR: Riven dispo is a CLEAR indicator how trash a weapon is, the more stars, the less it is used.  

 

*= Yes, I know there is ammo conversion, but the way Warframe handles that causes to massively waste dropped ammo packs. So, you get 1 bullet instead of the intended 10, wasting 90%. And with that small buffer, you constantly pickup ammo packs, even if you don't urgently need them. But when you need them, there is no ammo pack anymore. I verified that in the simulacrum, fired 2 shots and i was able to pick it up, giving 2 ammo, even when the same box can give 10. 80% wasted.

[StarGeezerTim]

3 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

You don't freaking kill a single enemy with a bow, if you can only do that then the problem lies on you, not the weapon. All bows have Punchthrough, you can easily kill lines upon lines of enemies with one shot due to slash procs. Yes those slash procs means something, if you cannot see this then you're playing at levels that a mosquito is strong enough to kill enemies.

"there is a whole lot of weapons that do this job a hundred times better than bows"

You're talking out of your butthole, few weapons can consistently proc one-shotting bleeding status like bows can. Especially now that bleeding needs viral to properly scale

Your whole argument is a you problem.

"I also do not know what you believe means having 'beat' the Bramma with whatever other bow you are talking about due to your tremendous skill and I don't really care much either"

I'm showing you how ridiculous your argument is, a "single target weapon" was more effective than a top tier AoE weapon by the use of skillful shots and actual preparation. Which shows that the whole "Weapon's shouldn't be nerfed mentality, other weapons should be brought to it's level", is bullcrap. It shows that people who overuse certain weapons can't aim for crap. Don't properly use the game's systems to their favor and therefore cannot be trusted in their judgement of a weapon.

Indulge me for a moment as I approach this from a different angle. Have you considered the gamers who enjoy this and other games that, through no fault of their own, cannot perform at the level you seem to think is appropriate? These people who, as you put it, "can't aim for crap" perhaps have real-world limitations that make such expectations unrealistic. I can't speak for all, but I will speak for myself.

I am an avid gamer. And I have been for virtually all of my nearly 60 years. That desire to play games for me predates what we currently understand as video games. Before Pong and Space Invaders and Pacman, there were pinball machines and electro-mechanical arcade cabinets. I eagerly watched as video games came into their own in the mid-70's and early-80's. And I've been playing them all that time.

Now the sad truth is as we get older, we may have the mental acuity we've always had, but our bodies age. Reflexes slow. Eyesight dims. Hands stiffen with arthritis. Yet there is no less a desire to continue to play these games. So gamers like me, we adapt. We may not be able to "360 no-scope" on our best day, but we can lay down a carpet of explosives that clears a room just as effectively without need for such precision. It permits us to continue playing the game. It may not be your ideal approach to the game, but it's a viable one for folks like me. And it still takes a certain degree of skill; even with self-damage being taken out, you still need to be mindful of firing too close and getting sent flying (and worse yet, left exposed for several crucial seconds.)

Allow people to play the game as they see fit. It's not always about being lazy or unskilled. No amount of "gitting gud" will improve my reflexes or cure my arthritis. So if I want to continue playing with my friends instead of watching Matlock reruns, let me blow crap up. It doesn't hurt you or anyone else any. It doesn't diminish your experience of the game. But it may just allow some of us old farts to continue playing for a few more years. Is that a problem?

[(PSN)Omnes__Morimur]

About time they nerfed Bramma. It made nerfs of other weapons senseless because Bramma was jst so obnoxious dps wise & visually. Rememberwhen everyone was angry with synoid simulor so they nerfed it to the ground just to release a weapon like Bramma? 

[-CLM-Joker]

On 2020-06-25 at 8:03 PM, (PS4)nononom12 said:

As a player who has played for 4 years, a weapon, frame, or companion that is seen as much as bramma destroys a game's creativity and player base. Likewise the gun actively hurt game performance to the point of firing people's GPU. These changes get rid of the GPU problems quite well along with making the gun slightly worst. Imagine being in a 3 or 4 man bramma group. Even my 2060 SUPER hit 90% on those spam fests

And I totally agree with that. The game's performance shouldn't be affected by another player. Although this problem isn't unique to the Bramma.
And it's honestly not as bad as you make it out to be (at least on PC). It chips at the framerate every now and then if one is too close to the explosion but that's it.

On 2020-06-25 at 8:03 PM, (PS4)nononom12 said:

Secondly rewarding no aim no skill guns that are by far the best gun in the game is a huge problem for PVE. Get your hands on a bramma as early as possible and every non-boss mission becomes trivial. The game doesn't need to get even easier. However experience player can note Quellor can hit 250k crits without much trouble BUT you have to aim and deal with a trash reload/slow wind up. Bramma had 0 negatives and should have been nerfed stat wise

 

Lastly the gun was a afk magnetic similar to simulator. Warframe has been actively against afking for years now

I'm starting to question whether or not you played Bramma for a reasonable amount of time.

If we're talking about crowd-efficient weapons, then most weapons require no higher skill than pointing and holding down until the target dies.
Not to mention how melee sees a significantly higher use than the rest of Warframe's equipment.

And nope, it doesn't make every mission trivial, it simply dispatches enemies efficiently. High level Corpus missions are expecially bad with it due to nullifiers and it's very low rate of fire.

Finally Bramma is as afk viable as any other AoE weapon, so that argument is invalid.
The point of the nerf was to prevent spamming not nerfing the weapon, because aside from the ammo pool it's really about the same after the changes.

[Ruffer505]

Overpowered

[(PSN)OnyxCrimsonBlur]

I feel like nerfing the bramma was a mistake. Honestly, I think there needs to be more high powered weapons and they need to be MR locked. I have earned my rank and earned my place and I just get annoyed that we can't have nice things. "Too many players using the weapon" is not really a good explanation to nerf something. There was nothing wrong with the weapon as it was and honestly the Kuva weapons should be end game. MR20 locked and let us vets have fun with high powered weapons and give us the high level missions to use them on. Sure, it's nice to feel like a badass and wreck things, I've been playing the game for 7 years now and some of the 'balancing' changes are just because too many people are playing with the newest weapon. Let us play the way we want to play and stop nerfing things just for the sake of nerfs please. I enjoy just playing the game how I want, when I want. I hate having to shelf weapons because the nerfs often make them broken and unreliable. It's happened to, too many of them. It's sad, really. Put the Bramma back, make the other Kuva weapons stronger as end game power weapons for vet players and just let us have fun. That's my two cents. 

[(PSN)nofool322]

As if I wasn't already on the verge of quitting this boring af game anyway.... Killing one of like 3 fun weapons in the game will probably do it. All DE cares about is making noobs happy. GL with that. (Spoiler: it won't, noobs will always *@##$ about something)

[Somnia]

17 hours ago, (PS4)OnyxCrimsonBlur said:

I feel like nerfing the bramma was a mistake. Honestly, I think there needs to be more high powered weapons and they need to be MR locked. I have earned my rank and earned my place and I just get annoyed that we can't have nice things. "Too many players using the weapon" is not really a good explanation to nerf something. There was nothing wrong with the weapon as it was and honestly the Kuva weapons should be end game. MR20 locked and let us vets have fun with high powered weapons and give us the high level missions to use them on. Sure, it's nice to feel like a badass and wreck things, I've been playing the game for 7 years now and some of the 'balancing' changes are just because too many people are playing with the newest weapon. Let us play the way we want to play and stop nerfing things just for the sake of nerfs please. I enjoy just playing the game how I want, when I want. I hate having to shelf weapons because the nerfs often make them broken and unreliable. It's happened to, too many of them. It's sad, really. Put the Bramma back, make the other Kuva weapons stronger as end game power weapons for vet players and just let us have fun. That's my two cents. 

All of this

For as much as they agree this is a game about power fantasy, they sure do like keeping things that fulfill that out of the hands of high MR vets. This has mostly just made me stop using it at all, rather than bringing it to a fair place.

[(XBOX)Irate Ivysaur]

Thank you digital extremes, for taking countless hours of my time, resources, and a love for this game, and once again, destroying it. I will not be back to warframe for a long time. Even the ammo plates I used religiously only give ONE ARROW. This is the kind of overkill that pushes the players away. 

[(PSN)ll-l-HADES-l-ll]

Please stop nerfing stuff..just bring out more weapons that are just as powerful. The people that are complaining are the ones that don't have the weapon..I hate games that change things from what they were..I love the game and don't want to quit this game..I've spent thousands of real money on this game already..I did the same on Dcuo until they changed the game..so I quit playing.. please don't make me have to quit this game because of the stupid nerf process..I have bought everything in the game and still buying..I have all Prime warframes and regular ones same for weapons and mods..the ones complaining don't spend money on the game..that's why they're complaining.. what we need is more energy and health drops from enemies because there's enemies that take your power and you can not get it back because few drops..the mods don't Regen fast enough to cast a power..fix those things and stop nerfing... instead buff things..

[(PSN)PerDegeton]

En 8/6/2020 a las 18:01, [DE]Rebecca dijo:

Tenno -

If you’ve been plugged into the community discourse since the self damage changes, you’ll have seen a lot of discussions about the Kuva Bramma. 

What makes this formerly self-damaging weapon so much more dominant than the others?

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

We are changing it so that:

- It has a smaller reserve ammo (15 to 5), and gains fewer arrows from ammo pickups - This is to encourage players to aim the bow deliberately at crowds of enemies and not fire it wildly everywhere
- Fewer cluster bombs are produced on impact (from 7 to 3) - Reduces the overwhelming AOE potential somewhat but also makes the Bramma less visually busy. Players have said that the many many explosions produced by Bramma are hard to see through.
- Increased cluster projectile radial attack size from 2.7m to 3.5m
- Reduced cluster projectile fall off from 100% to 50% - Fewer explosive fragments, but they cover more area and generally do more damage

We will be monitoring feedback after these changes go live to ensure we’ve struck a better balance of having a powerful weapon - but not one that overshadows everything else in the game to the detriment of your squadmates.

You will see these changes in Update 28: The Deadlock Protocol, and we can discuss feedback once they are in your hands.

Until then, Tenno! 

Hola me parece injusto los cambio que le realizan a las armas que son populares por llamarlo de una manera 

Yo aria esas modificaciones en las armas menos populares 

Modificaría los cargadores y el poder de cada una 

Se que no se puede complacer a todos los jugadores por igual pero no veo la gracia de quitar municiones a un arme que de por sí solo tiene 5 como son los arcos que con mods sube a 15 

Soy un amante del WF y no me gusta la idea que modifiquen armas 

 

Solo es una opinión sigan así el juego está excelente 

Saludos atte marcos 

[Bandileros]

Show must go on...

[(PSN)trinity62580]

All that needed to be done was reduce the effects. I took the weapon into a kuva flood used my few shots I had and then... no ammo for most of the mission.  What sense does it make to mess with anything in the game like weapons, warframes and so on if it’s the effects that are the cause. That’s all I read about here was people complaining over the effects.  Isn’t the whole point of this game being able to play your way.  Why don’t we just destroy octavia I mean hell lights and music!  I mean with the logic that’s used here let get rid of all energy colors to. Who cares what weapons or warframes people use. You play your way let others play theirs. If you think a weapon is to powerful then guess what go use something else. I guess that’s the problem with common sense these days. It’s not common at all!!

[(PSN)DooDirt3726]

You didn't have to take the reserve ammo all the way down to 5. 8 at least. Really you didn't have to touch it at all. 

[Ikusias]

14 hours ago, (PS4)DooDirt3726 said:

You didn't have to take the reserve ammo all the way down to 5. 8 at least. Really you didn't have to touch it at all. 

Also you didn't have to mess up with ammo conversion mods giving much less than the normal ammunition.

1-2 ammunition packs per single ammo is otrageous.

considering the imminent launch of "hard AHAHAH mode" and constant nerfs on top tier weapons I'd like to know what will you leave us available to kill enemies? Saryn?

[(PSN)mGx_Psycho]

On 2020-06-08 at 2:10 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are doing a comprehensive review of this issue that players are raising to see what the next steps are. 

If changes are going to be made to how early on you can access Kuva. Then changes need to be made to the leveling scale. It’s time consuming and tedious getting through mastery rank and for any players looking to start the game won’t gain passion because everything is too far away to grasp. And to touch on the Kuva Bramma Changes, I understand why it needed a nerf but now it’s not even something worth picking up. Just wish there was more of a balance. And it’s a game. Let players do what they want, if they find something that works why go out of the way to ruin it because others like to complain. 

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

On 2020-06-08 at 2:06 PM, (PS4)WretchedMoon said:

And the cycle continues, until nothing is fun. Thank you the fun police in the community. I don't even use it, but now you've made sure that I won't. And I rarely saw that weapon in game. And you know what? If I entered a PUBLIC match, and someone was using something I don't like, I have the ability to back out of the match. I don't go and complain about it online, to take someone's fun away.

So, if we want to talk about overpowered, when are we gonna get the hate train going on the Sheev? Since the melee changes, LITERALLY EVERY MELEE WEAPON is more than viable. The Machete? Come on everyone, there are people having fun out there in game, and you know we can't have that!

 

The Bramma's concept remains the same;  It's still a Nuke launched by a sling. That's what made it fun, not the fact that it was so OP that it made every other primary weapon obsolete.

And guess what? This "nerf" did next to nothing to it. It's still one of the best weapons in the game, it's still one of the best forms of CC available, it's still considerably OP. It still one-shots crowds of level 100 enemies like few other weapons can.

Drop the knee-jerk reaction to balancing. There were at least 2 of these things in every public que; no one should be forced to go through an RNG driven cycle of loading screens deploying and dropping out of matches to find the rare que of competent players who aren't hell bent on abusing broken systems; no one should be forced into playing solo because these meta fanatics suck all the fun out of group play. Your proposed solutions for avoiding overused OP equipment is selfish, shortsighted, and entitled. PvE does require balance if the game offers diversity; Overpowered pieces if nerf bait dissolve any concept of diversity by incentivizing players to jump on the meta bandwagon. 

I can't believe this has to be explained, but people don't really "think" anymore, they just "feel" and prescribe an objective foundation to personal sentiment, before vomiting their feelings as facts across social media.

[(XBOX)TIME P0LICE]

The Bramma was OP, but not as much as other weapons. I don’t think it should’ve even been touched. DE took all the fun away from using that weapon after killing a lich. That ammo Nerf was unnecessary 

[Ikusias]

55 minutes ago, (XB1)TIME P0LICE said:

The Bramma was OP, but not as much as other weapons. I don’t think it should’ve even been touched. DE took all the fun away from using that weapon after killing a lich. That ammo Nerf was unnecessary 

Mainly DE did adress the wrong issues with the weapon without regard for the time wasted in getting it and bringing it to full bonus damage and wanted element!

The only thing that made that weapon overpowered was the eccessively high rate of fire, letting it humiliate the lenz!

Both weapon suffered as well from the changes to launchers due to the removal of self damage and the changes to status 2.0

 

[(PSN)Cosign_]

If the game is too saturated with Bramma users, then increase the mastery rank requirement to use one and keep the weapon the same. This would allow players to set a long-term goal and make mastery rank a more important facet of the game. Higher mastery rank should mean access to more powerful weapons.

Visibility complaints is a thin justification for a nerf. If Players complain about visibility due to innate attributes of the Kuva Bramma, then that means the graphics are accurately depicting a sense of the “fog of war“ associated with cluster bombs. It’s part of what makes the weapon fun to use. I would wager the complaint is actually rooted in a diminished kill count of non-Bramma users.

On a more personal note, I’m sick of my hard work getting nerfed. it took me several weeks to farm a Bramma and then forma it to level 40. If the Kuva Bramma had its current capabilities, I would have never put the time in to grind for it. It feels like a waste and makes me want to stop playing.

The original Bramma was not too overpowered because it was balanced with a small magazine and self-knockdown/damage. In contrast, Ash’s original Blade Storm and Ember’s original World on Fire are examples of things that were too overpowered (even though they were awesome). The cycle of destroying fun and engaging items just because they are polarizing needs to end.