Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.

[(XBOX)hopesfall2own]

Joined the forum specifically for this.

Pretty new to the game, 2 months / MR12.. I put in the grind to get this weapon, only for it to be destroyed a few weeks later. It's this type of trash that made me quit borderlands 3.. why are you nerfing guns into oblivion in a PVE game? It makes no sense.

As someone starting out without a clan or group of friends that carry you.. it takes a while to get to the point of even knowing how to acquire this gun, much less be able to get a thrall to spawn with this gun and then kill the lich.

I guess i should apologize to all the elitists that want me to use pew pew rifles that exist in every other game instead of something fun, in a fantasy video game.

Weak.

[(PSN)nononom12]

On 2020-06-08 at 6:28 PM, -CLM-Joker said:

And that enriches your experience...how exactly?

Don't get me wrong, I fully expected the Bramma to get nerfed, especially given the amount of players using it.

But cheering over it?
Warframe is a PvE game, the nerf of a weapon brings no benefit to you, yet you're happy about it...

I will never understand this attitude.

As a player who has played for 4 years, a weapon, frame, or companion that is seen as much as bramma destroys a game's creativity and player base. Likewise the gun actively hurt game performance to the point of firing people's GPU. These changes get rid of the GPU problems quite well along with making the gun slightly worst. Imagine being in a 3 or 4 man bramma group. Even my 2060 SUPER hit 90% on those spam fests

 

Secondly rewarding no aim no skill guns that are by far the best gun in the game is a huge problem for PVE. Get your hands on a bramma as early as possible and every non-boss mission becomes trivial. The game doesn't need to get even easier. However experience player can note Quellor can hit 250k crits without much trouble BUT you have to aim and deal with a trash reload/slow wind up. Bramma had 0 negatives and should have been nerfed stat wise

 

Lastly the gun was a afk magnetic similar to simulator. Warframe has been actively against afking for years now

[Ikusias]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)nononom12 said:

As a player who has played for 4 years, a weapon, frame, or companion that is seen as much as bramma destroys a game's creativity and player base. Likewise the gun actively hurt game performance to the point of firing people's GPU. These changes get rid of the GPU problems quite well along with making the gun slightly worst. Imagine being in a 3 or 4 man bramma group. Even my 2060 SUPER hit 90% on those spam fests

 

Secondly rewarding no aim no skill guns that are by far the best gun in the game is a huge problem for PVE. Get your hands on a bramma as early as possible and every non-boss mission becomes trivial. The game doesn't need to get even easier. However experience player can note Quellor can hit 250k crits without much trouble BUT you have to aim and deal with a trash reload/slow wind up. Bramma had 0 negatives and should have been nerfed stat wise

 

Lastly the gun was a afk magnetic similar to simulator. Warframe has been actively against afking for years now

Your first objection is reasonable due to most players disregards for other people's retinas and it's, as usual, fully DE fault: why the Hek we don't have antiflash measures implemented in game? this way fanatics of wisual cancer spamming can fry their corneas to their leasure without blinding everyone else!

Second objection: again DE fault of not hardlocking kuva weapons to their expected MR braket. When every low MR player can get taxied to the hardest hitting weapon in the game, he /she/it will end using that everywere, every time because he/she/it won't need anything else.

Now with all these nerfs what are we supposed to bring to the new "hard mode" starchart? Melee?

 

Last objection: you were referring to Wukong's Celestial Twin and excalibur Umbra spoiler mode?

[Urlan]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)nononom12 said:

As a player who has played for 4 years, a weapon, frame, or companion that is seen as much as bramma destroys a game's creativity and player base. Likewise the gun actively hurt game performance to the point of firing people's GPU. These changes get rid of the GPU problems quite well along with making the gun slightly worst. Imagine being in a 3 or 4 man bramma group. Even my 2060 SUPER hit 90% on those spam fests

 

Secondly rewarding no aim no skill guns that are by far the best gun in the game is a huge problem for PVE. Get your hands on a bramma as early as possible and every non-boss mission becomes trivial. The game doesn't need to get even easier. However experience player can note Quellor can hit 250k crits without much trouble BUT you have to aim and deal with a trash reload/slow wind up. Bramma had 0 negatives and should have been nerfed stat wise

 

Lastly the gun was a afk magnetic similar to simulator. Warframe has been actively against afking for years now

If you look at what was said about the weapon's adoption it should be taken in the context of few players overall total actually even hitting Liches, let alone vanquishing them. If a player has actually hunted down the liches, they are likely going for a collection type deal so yeah, they are going to have the weapon and thus appear in that small subtext as it being dominant. None of the Kuva weapons have been used to a mass adoption level. On the other topic, the particle spam, that can be changed through the particle and visuals; without nerfing the weapon.

It is the same situation and reasoning some folk called for Mirage with Simulor (and often any indirect firearm) or Ember as before were called to have nerfs when playing on lower nodes since it was considered kill-stealing and depriving newer players of action, according to the devstreams around the time.

[(NSW)RATHURUE]

You guys could argue until the end of time and type replies until your keyboards broke, and yet DE still won't do anything, you know? They've done this before, and even before (with Zenurik and Gas changes/IPS priority nerf) they still haven't changed any of that. 'Numbers listed not final' my arse, who the heck thought flat numbers will fit in game with %scaling? DE. They did create the game, but utterly disconnected from anything inside it aside from the numbers and data collected. Forget reasoning with them, just do a quick experiment with all of us using just melees and see if they will 'rework' melee again.

[(XBOX)BulletJAR]

can't say I am surprised it was OP still is ,my problem is maybe test it first, cause in a power fantasy game that is mostly PvE I like to be actually over powered , and please stop dangling stuff to us that we go after , used to, spend time to perfect it , put formas, grind for riven and it gets taking away cause it hurts other players feeling , it's like what's the point aren't we allowed to have fun in medium that's solely built for player to do that, I had few Catchmoon, 3 brammas, and it's really upsetting to see it taking away just like that cause some whinny players cried about, respect people investment please.

[ArcSavier]

Just an experience that I encountered while using Kuva Bramma, I was doing Survival Ani Fissure and for some stroke of bad luck, I come across an Arctic Eximus, Nullifier and Heavy Gunner, huddling closely together like besties having a good time shooting at me. It literally took all five arrows I had and I was still not able to break both the eximus and nullifier aoe shields, so I thought I could go close-combat, but was knocked back by the gunner and ended up dying.

Just my personal opinion, I could...probably...get damage reduction or less cluster bomb or etc., but is it really necessary to reduce ammo capacity just to ensure we shot properly when there are so many enemies that are either invulnerable to certain attack or have extreme shield and armor(especially in sortie)?

Just my opinion, please dont hammer me 🙏I come in peace

[Slayer-.]

17 minutes ago, ArcSavier said:

Just an experience that I encountered while using Kuva Bramma, I was doing Survival Ani Fissure and for some stroke of bad luck, I come across an Arctic Eximus, Nullifier and Heavy Gunner, huddling closely together like besties having a good time shooting at me. It literally took all five arrows I had and I was still not able to break both the eximus and nullifier aoe shields, so I thought I could go close-combat, but was knocked back by the gunner and ended up dying.

Just my personal opinion, I could...probably...get damage reduction or less cluster bomb or etc., but is it really necessary to reduce ammo capacity just to ensure we shot properly when there are so many enemies that are either invulnerable to certain attack or have extreme shield and armor(especially in sortie)?

Just my opinion, please dont hammer me 🙏I come in peace

That's why I take a bullet gun to burst through their shields easier than the Bramma before the nerf, I've had multi enemies with all shields inside each other, blaming the Bramma for you not switching to a bullet gun is bad planning on your part.  🙂

[DreadWarlock]

On 2020-06-09 at 7:55 AM, Vajet said:

Please explain where my criticism wasn't constructive. I literally gave advice on how to fix imbalance of weapons in a more positive way. And I do think most bow underperform because their damage is very inconsistent and the disadvantage that you have to charge them give no advantage in return (compared to other weapons that fire directly).We may not agree on the subject which is perfectly fine but your approach to devalue my argument by insulating that it is not constructive or 'drama' is rather cheap.

IF you know how to use bows properly you'll know that they pretty much one shot any enemy with HM on the build. And since they have Punchthrough they can also be very  efficient when used skillfully, I didn't beat a Kuva Bramma with a normal bow just because I'm good, the punchthrough can be pretty powerful when used right. 

"I literally gave advice on how to fix imbalance of weapons in a more positive way."

No you didn't, your proposition is ridiculous. 

There are many weapons that already performs extremely well but are underrated, they don't need buffs, it's the player mentality of flocking to braindead weapons that need a nerf.

If you really want to make proper contructive arguments you need to be more specific. Tell them which aspect of a certain weapon needs to be changed, and how to go about it. SImply requesting them to buff all weapons that are not Kuva Bramma is no solution because it's Kuva Bramma overperforming and not the other weapons underperforming.

[DreadWarlock]

On 2020-06-25 at 8:33 AM, zuraja said:

When has DE ever given any sort of compensation when they've nerfed something into the ground?  The only time their care about respecting people's time and resource investment is when they need an excuse for not fixing the data entry error they made with the Hema's research cost.

Since always? THey usually give a forma pack for free whenever a weapon is nerfed.

[ArcSavier]

1 hour ago, Slayer-. said:

That's why I take a bullet gun to burst through their shields easier than the Bramma before the nerf, I've had multi enemies with all shields inside each other, blaming the Bramma for you not switching to a bullet gun is bad planning on your part.  🙂

Hehe... that's so true.
I was trying to farm a lot of exp and prime items and my best weapon is Kuva Bramma and most of the time I always end up playing solo even when squad set to public. The best option for bullet gun I got is Soma Prime, still my bad for the bad choice.
Thanks for the advice.

[Akula_Rose]

23 minutes ago, ArcSavier said:

Hehe... that's so true.
I was trying to farm a lot of exp and prime items and my best weapon is Kuva Bramma and most of the time I always end up playing solo even when squad set to public. The best option for bullet gun I got is Soma Prime, still my bad for the bad choice.
Thanks for the advice.

I recommend trying out the rattleguts secondary if you get the chance. Even without a riven it is great for getting rid of pesky bubbled enemies.

[fo3nixz]

jsut un nerf bramma and put self damage on that weapon only 😄

[Vajet]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb DreadWarlock:

IF you know how to use bows properly you'll know that they pretty much one shot any enemy with HM on the build. And since they have Punchthrough they can also be very  efficient when used skillfully, I didn't beat a Kuva Bramma with a normal bow just because I'm good, the punchthrough can be pretty powerful when used right. 

"I literally gave advice on how to fix imbalance of weapons in a more positive way."

No you didn't, your proposition is ridiculous. 

There are many weapons that already performs extremely well but are underrated, they don't need buffs, it's the player mentality of flocking to braindead weapons that need a nerf.

If you really want to make proper contructive arguments you need to be more specific. Tell them which aspect of a certain weapon needs to be changed, and how to go about it. SImply requesting them to buff all weapons that are not Kuva Bramma is no solution because it's Kuva Bramma overperforming and not the other weapons underperforming.

You are really suggesting that killing a single enemy, or maybe a couple in line with a slow ticking dot actually means something in this game? And even if that's what you measure a good weapon by, there is a whole lot of weapons that do this job a hundred times better than bows. I almost feel stupid by even discussing this. I also do not know what you believe means having 'beat' the Bramma with whatever other bow you are talking about due to your tremendous skill and I don't really care much either. Apart from a very few encounters in this game (where bows also suck at) the majority of content is killing many enemies where as I define good as performing at this as efficiently as possible. And regardless of whether a weapon has a relatively high or low skill cap, you can only influence that by so much. The game features a rather large spectrum of weapons and abilities that alone or combined deal a rather insane amount of damage and are able to deal with enemies up to lvl 9999. But I do not want to start the "what about" game here, just mentioning it because it is what we have to compare powerful weapons against. This why I personally do not find my proposition "ridiculous" and the mentality of flocking can be also applied to you as you seem to single out the bramma as THE overpowered item in the game that needs or needed to be nerfed.

Having played the Bramma changes (you took a rather long while to answer) I don't even think they do anything good. If it was effects that annoyed you, they don't look much better now. You can still mindlessly shoot if you wanted to. The 5 instead 15 ammo change is just a terrible idea because it makes no difference in situations where you have a lot of ammo-dropping enemies thanks to vigilante supplies (the reason why they made this change) but it renders the weapon unplayable in situations where there is no ammo drop at all (like certain boss fights).

P.S.: It is the last argument I will make to this subject. I personally don't even care enough about the bramma but I believe looking at spread sheets of popular items and nerfing them because of their popularity is in general a terrible strategy some game developers following. But I guess it is a "suger bread and whip" kind of strategy that works out alright.

[SerahFarron]

9 hours ago, DreadWarlock said:

Since always? THey usually give a forma pack for free whenever a weapon is nerfed.

Is this sarcasm or for real? 

[Slayer-.]

11 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

That's why I take a bullet gun to burst through their shields easier than the Bramma before the nerf, I've had multi enemies with all shields inside each other, blaming the Bramma for you not switching to a bullet gun is bad planning on your part.  🙂

 

9 hours ago, ArcSavier said:

Hehe... that's so true.
I was trying to farm a lot of exp and prime items and my best weapon is Kuva Bramma and most of the time I always end up playing solo even when squad set to public. The best option for bullet gun I got is Soma Prime, still my bad for the bad choice.
Thanks for the advice.

You can use your bow for the primary, just take a pistol for the enemy bubbles, makes it so much easier to take them down, then once they're down you can drop a bow round on them and blow them away. 🙂 

[Klaeljanu]

39 minutes ago, Slayer-. said:

 

You can use your bow for the primary, just take a pistol for the enemy bubbles, makes it so much easier to take them down, then once they're down you can drop a bow round on them and blow them away. 🙂 

That goes for the use of any slow firing weapon TBH

[(PSN)nononom12]

On 2020-06-25 at 2:12 PM, Ikusias said:

Last objection: you were referring to Wukong's Celestial Twin and excalibur Umbra spoiler mode?

Oh I meant way way back. Mirage combo and ember's ult. Those 2 are not as powerful tho not weak either

[(PSN)nononom12]

On 2020-06-25 at 2:17 PM, Urlan said:

If you look at what was said about the weapon's adoption it should be taken in the context of few players overall total actually even hitting Liches, let alone vanquishing them. If a player has actually hunted down the liches, they are likely going for a collection type deal so yeah, they are going to have the weapon and thus appear in that small subtext as it being dominant. None of the Kuva weapons have been used to a mass adoption level. On the other topic, the particle spam, that can be changed through the particle and visuals; without nerfing the weapon.

It is the same situation and reasoning some folk called for Mirage with Simulor (and often any indirect firearm) or Ember as before were called to have nerfs when playing on lower nodes since it was considered kill-stealing and depriving newer players of action, according to the devstreams around the time.

1. Usage of kuva weapon is pretty high. Don't think warframe has released any official stats on it, but I see many using bramma, nukor, kohm, and the others quite often.

2. Lowering my settings between matches or forever due to a spammy weapon instead of reducing the weapon's spammy? Come on you can't expect everyone to conform to a person's spam fest.

 

People really need to read the thread. Point of this "nerf" is changing the ability to spam the weapon and amount of projectiles it creates. Neither really nerf the weapon if you know how to mod weapons. It just makes it harder for new players to use it without ammo mods or multishot mods. I hate the fact we even call this a nerf as Simulor got a real nerf in the old days

[---RNGesus---]

Every time players enjoy something in game.
The devs: 

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, (PS4)nononom12 said:

1. Usage of kuva weapon is pretty high. Don't think warframe has released any official stats on it, but I see many using bramma, nukor, kohm, and the others quite often.

2. Lowering my settings between matches or forever due to a spammy weapon instead of reducing the weapon's spammy? Come on you can't expect everyone to conform to a person's spam fest.

 

People really need to read the thread. Point of this "nerf" is changing the ability to spam the weapon and amount of projectiles it creates. Neither really nerf the weapon if you know how to mod weapons. It just makes it harder for new players to use it without ammo mods or multishot mods. I hate the fact we even call this a nerf as Simulor got a real nerf in the old days

You could get a loose idea of just how few people have actually even done liches by checking your achievements about "Beating a Kuva Lich Commander" with your peers. For the easy to find Steam players, that is 1.7% or less of all players that have played Warframe. I find that we often tend to define ourselves and those we factor to by others, and influence those folk too. You are seeing usage in missions by the same players as yourself. For Xbox One users that is 2% or less of all their players, and for your environment, PS4; that is exactly (at time of this statement) 4.27% of all players who have played PS4 Warframe. That isn't conclave adoption numbers low; but its mighty low for the weapon, one of many mind; to have wide adoption. I am missing stand-alone PC there, but while it could be different, I don't think it will drastically buck the trend. Essentially this first point is a self fulfilling statement, yes folk might very well in you play community niche have the weapon, but its not a wide adoption, quite the opposite in fact!

I expect, if a weapon is having performance issues tied to its visuals; as I stated years ago now in those Simulor related threads; that the visuals be changed to not impact performance as much. In the avenue that the visual is not possible; the weapon should be modified to keep the intent as much as possible without losing power. This is simple design philosophy stuff. On a PS4, I would think this would have been a concern that would have been caught in certification if its particularly harming performance but if its just "yeah, I don't like the bright lights and can't see when I or my allies use it" that isn't a concern of the design; and is largely irrelevant to the discussion of its stats and effect being nerfed, which isn't up for debate - it has been - what could be, is to the degree and if that is alright for such a reward.

The point of the thread is in DE Rebecca's PR tidied statement; but I can summarize in case you forgot as per your last point: the Kuva Bramma was popular relative to the Kuva weapon adoption, and it could be used for clearing rooms; partners and other players that DE listens to felt it should be nerfed to hurt the relative adoption and de incentivize its overall use. To do that, the weapon's range, ammo, bomb-lets reduced in number, and damage were decreased while relative fall-off damage reductions reduced to allow the remaining damage some small relevance. Take away, (practical wise) the weapon's long term in match viability was decreased along with its original stated use of being able to devastate heavies while clearing out their minions. Can it still hurt foes, certainly; just as the Lenz can; or a Dread in one foe's face at a time. Is this a good way of punishing players for the low adoption of this mode? I don't think so, and that it was considered at all (vets figured it would happen due to knowing the trends more than anything) should be telling of mistakes in development to design or a deliberate bait and switch scenario knowing the carrot that factually few players among our more than 24 million "losers" even have obtained as of yet.

[(XBOX)MegaSparlan]

En 8/6/2020 a las 16:15, Drachnyn dijo:

Please do solve the actual problem of ally effect intensity in our face. The problem people have with the bramma and why mirage gets weapons nerfed is highly disruptive visual and sound effects. We NEED an option to turn down ally effect specifically.

On the the bramma itself: Melee weapons always have and still outclass bramma in its current form. It was one of the few weapons that was almost able to compete with melee weapons. Other primaries just suck and even more importantly have no place to use them. There are almost no enemies to warrant single target damage, so why should anyone care about weapons like the stradavar or the sybaris. Buff the other AoE primaries and secondaries so they can atleast pretend to compete with melee weapons.

Again you are just nerfing the most popular thing without looking at reasons why they are popular or what could be a constructive change.

Totally agree with this guy, the only thing that can compete with melee are just some few weapons, basically on every session i get in a get people swinging their melees around, beacuse nobody is used to the Primary or Secondary Weapons since most of them are simply just a joke

[Urlan]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)MegaSparlan said:

Totally agree with this guy, the only thing that can compete with melee are just some few weapons, basically on every session i get in a get people swinging their melees around, beacuse nobody is used to the Primary or Secondary Weapons since most of them are simply just a joke

Well said.

[Kayll]

7 hours ago, Urlan said:

You could get a loose idea of just how few people have actually even done liches by checking your achievements about "Beating a Kuva Lich Commander" with your peers. For the easy to find Steam players, that is 1.7% or less of all players that have played Warframe. I find that we often tend to define ourselves and those we factor to by others, and influence those folk too. You are seeing usage in missions by the same players as yourself. For Xbox One users that is 2% or less of all their players, and for your environment, PS4; that is exactly (at time of this statement) 4.27% of all players who have played PS4 Warframe. That isn't conclave adoption numbers low; but its mighty low for the weapon, one of many mind; to have wide adoption. I am missing stand-alone PC there, but while it could be different, I don't think it will drastically buck the trend. Essentially this first point is a self fulfilling statement, yes folk might very well in you play community niche have the weapon, but its not a wide adoption, quite the opposite in fact!

I expect, if a weapon is having performance issues tied to its visuals; as I stated years ago now in those Simulor related threads; that the visuals be changed to not impact performance as much. In the avenue that the visual is not possible; the weapon should be modified to keep the intent as much as possible without losing power. This is simple design philosophy stuff. On a PS4, I would think this would have been a concern that would have been caught in certification if its particularly harming performance but if its just "yeah, I don't like the bright lights and can't see when I or my allies use it" that isn't a concern of the design; and is largely irrelevant to the discussion of its stats and effect being nerfed, which isn't up for debate - it has been - what could be, is to the degree and if that is alright for such a reward.

The point of the thread is in DE Rebecca's PR tidied statement; but I can summarize in case you forgot as per your last point: the Kuva Bramma was popular relative to the Kuva weapon adoption, and it could be used for clearing rooms; partners and other players that DE listens to felt it should be nerfed to hurt the relative adoption and de incentivize its overall use. To do that, the weapon's range, ammo, bomb-lets reduced in number, and damage were decreased while relative fall-off damage reductions reduced to allow the remaining damage some small relevance. Take away, (practical wise) the weapon's long term in match viability was decreased along with its original stated use of being able to devastate heavies while clearing out their minions. Can it still hurt foes, certainly; just as the Lenz can; or a Dread in one foe's face at a time. Is this a good way of punishing players for the low adoption of this mode? I don't think so, and that it was considered at all (vets figured it would happen due to knowing the trends more than anything) should be telling of mistakes in development to design or a deliberate bait and switch scenario knowing the carrot that factually few players among our more than 24 million "losers" even have obtained as of yet.

Are you using steam achievements to track weapon usage/popularity?
That is completely silly unit of measurement,of course the person who downloaded the game in 2013, played for 2 days and then uninstalled the game to never log on again won't be using the Bramma, it didn't even exist at that point in time.
They said in the original post of this thread what the usage ratio is for this weapon is, "(about 3 times more popular than anything else)", I'm more inclined to believe DE has stats that are more relevant and focused than literally every person to download the game,ever.

[Urlan]

34 minutes ago, Kayll said:

Are you using steam achievements to track weapon usage/popularity?
That is completely silly unit of measurement,of course the person who downloaded the game in 2013, played for 2 days and then uninstalled the game to never log on again won't be using the Bramma, it didn't even exist at that point in time.
They said in the original post of this thread what the usage ratio is for this weapon is, "(about 3 times more popular than anything else)", I'm more inclined to believe DE has stats that are more relevant and focused than literally every person to download the game,ever.

I am using achievements to track players using a weapon, they can't use a weapon on that platform if they have never earned it. Thus they can't count for its popularity, except as a member of the whole. You can reread the statement to better understand, as it is after-all a wall of text compared. Compared to anything else, which I addressed; is a context sensitive statement. I was helping you and anyone else reading and confused understand that context.