Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Sometimes DE does things that are entirely beyond my comprehension. I was wondering whether anyone could come up with some sort of logic for their behavior, and will give 2 recent examples to discuss: Gas damage. It was a useful, but not dominant, element. Until one day DE nerfed into uselessness. Among the many things they changed about it, they removed it's scaling entirely. This was assumed to be a bug, yet after DE "improved" the nerfed element due to uniform complaints, this supposed bug remains still in place, and Gas remains a dead element still - likely for years to come, if the past is any indicator. Why just make things worse, and then leave them nonfunctional, broken, ignored? The primary Kitgun nerf. DE nerfed Tombfingers build with the Tremor grip by 40%, about a week after their introduction. At the same time they buffed Tombfingers with the Brash grip to be 2x as strong as the nerfed variant. Literally. From a balance point of view, this just made things worse, whichever way you look at it. While at the same time upsetting players who build one before, and discouraging them from building any in the future - since without apparent rhyme or reason to this nerf, there can be no certainty what might happen with these guns tomorrow. Seeing behavior that appears to go against reason, that would seem to inflict harm without benefit, the demerit of which should be impossible to overlook, just bothers me. Any attempt at an explanation is welcome. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 1. I dont get the idea behind the changes to Gas. It was a good element before and I see no reason why it changed. They could have even improved it to rely on both toxin and heat damage for the new gas proc. 2. I understand it perfectly since the way grips worked with tombfinger was a bug due to not altering the charge rate at all. Now after the changes it comes down to either having dps or damage per shot, whichever you need most for the situation or your playstyle. It is kinda like Opticor vs Vandal, one if for damage per shot, the other is for improved dps. It is kinda odd that with Opticor vs Vandal the forums screamed "direct downgrade!", while the tombfinger fix sounds the opposite way. Yet the end result of the changes/new weapon type is the same. Edited June 23, 2020 by SneakyErvin 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapt0rman Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Gas changes are indeed FUBAR. Primary Tombfinger could still use some tweaks, but for the most part it's just a vocal portion of the playerbase who think the only viable playstyle is spam AoE as fast as possible. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Within reason, it would be possible to agree with your second point. But when one variant has 2x the dps, almost 3x as much status procs, nearly the same damage per hit, and still no issue with ammo at all, I do not believe it possible to choose the clearly inferior version. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, rapt0rman said: but for the most part it's just a vocal portion of the playerbase who think the only viable playstyle is spam AoE as fast as possible. No, and I am disappointed to hear such from clearly uninformed players. This is nothing like the nerf to the Catchmoon, or the nerf to the Bramma. They literally just made one version 2x as good as the one everyone had already build. Please tell me you are not incapable of seeing this simply fact. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saghzs Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1. Gas changes are all mostly intentional. DE intends gas to be the element you use for infested. And against infested.. it is extremly strong. It does exactly what its supposed to do. I think most players are overreacting a bit here because we all are used to not caring about infested, they die no matter what elements we run, so the strength of gas is sort of nullified by that. If infested were an actual threat, i think most players would see the good things gas damage has going for it at the moment. 2. Afraid of another catchmoon 2.0. Simple as that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 On 2020-06-23 at 3:34 PM, Traumtulpe said: Within reason, it would be possible to agree with your second point. But when one variant has 2x the dps, almost 3x as much status procs, nearly the same damage per hit, and still no issue with ammo at all, I do not believe it possible to choose the clearly inferior version. But people picked the inferior version previously with Opticor aswell, but at that time the slower and far less damaging version (drom a dps perspective) was still seen as the best cos "one shot!" reasons. What is different with Tombfinger? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said: But people picked the inferior version previously with Opticor aswell, but at that time the slower and far less damaging version (drom a dps perspective) was still seen as the best cos "one shot!" reasons. What is different with Tombfinger? Aren't you just repeating a meme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEyedRaven Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: They literally just made one version 2x as good as the one everyone had already build. Please tell me you are not incapable of seeing this simply fact. You kinda make it sound like it's super-hard and super-time-consuming to build a kitgun. It's really not. If you can get the blueprints needed, the parts are not hard to build and assemble. The intention is clear. DE monitor the metrics. If they notice that when something new gets used by a considerable number of players over anything else, they will likely tweak and/or nerf it. When kitgun-primaries were released, a large number of players just straight-up ignored everything else and made Tombfingers and everybody who keeps asking for "the bestest weapon in the game" copied that paradigm. It was obvious DE would not keep it that way. On a sidenote, my primary KG is a Rattleguts, and it's absolutely fine. Edited June 23, 2020 by RedEyedRaven 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, RedEyedRaven said: The intention is clear. DE monitor the metrics. If they notice that when something new gets used by a considerable number of players over anything else, they will likely tweak and/or nerf it. So the intention would indeed be to discourage players from building what they perceive as the obviously best Kitgun, following your logic, the weirdly overtuned Tombfinger+Brash is a trap set by DE - should we not be discouraged enough by the previous nerf, and decide to build the newly best version, it would get the very same treatment. Presumably Tombfinger+Steadyslam would be the next variant to become 2x as strong, and so on, until there is nobody left who would even dare build a Kitgun anymore. I suppose it does make sense, in a perverse way. Thank you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEyedRaven Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: the obviously best Kitgun I'm glad you recognized the problem on your own now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Just now, RedEyedRaven said: I'm glad you recognized the problem on your own now. The problem, according to what you quoted, would be an inability on DE's part to even give the appearance of balance. Is that what you meant? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Ancient Mutt Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 They basically made the Arbiters of Hexis useless, too, with the gas nerf. https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Truth I'm thinking they wanted to make Infested stronger against us. Infested use gas damage a LOT and you've probably seen how a team of Tenno can drop like flies once a cloud is unleashed. Corpus wear respirators and helmets and tend to be synthetic while any organics are locked away with hematic seals... Grineer should be incredibly vulnerable, especially if the gas might contain a nerve agent. I'm thinking this might all be a setup getting ready for the new Infested version of Plains of Eidolon and a knee-jerk reaction to the cries for harder content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEyedRaven Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Just now, Traumtulpe said: The problem, according to what you quoted, would be an inability on DE's part to even give the appearance of balance. Is that what you meant? "Balance" is the hardest thing to nail in a game. What DE actually want for kitguns is for players to have a viable option for each playstyle. Sure, one might be generally slightly better than the other for this and that situation, but the Tombfinger-PKG was apparently a little TOO good compared to the others. Hence, they toned it down. And it's not weak now, either. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Just now, RedEyedRaven said: "Balance" is the hardest thing to nail in a game. What DE actually want for kitguns is for players to have a viable option for each playstyle. Sure, one might be generally slightly better than the other for this and that situation, but the Tombfinger-PKG was apparently a little TOO good compared to the others. Hence, they toned it down. And it's not weak now, either. Please read this: On 2020-06-22 at 4:52 AM, Avalix said: Recently I posted about the tombfinger nerf, but as a new forum user, unfortunately I created it under the wrong topic. Link: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1202381-tombfinger-nerf-and-the-math-and-how-bad-it-is/ for a much more comprehensive read of thoughts and opinions Key notes: tl:dr, on the tombfinger, Brash charged compared to any firing type of the tremor makes the tremor obselete, as it will always have a large aoe and do at LEAST 2x the dps of the tremor. -Upon Gilding, unmodded: Tremor, uncharged: 116 on hit, 108 radial w/ fr of 2.13 || 224x2.13 = 477.12 dps (direct+small aoe) Brash, uncharged: 38 on hit, 30 radial w/ fr of 3.77 || 68x3.77 = 256.36 dps (direct+small aoe) Tremor, charged: 116 on hit, 490 radial c/t of 1.4s || 606/1.4 = 432.8 dps (direct+large aoe), 350 dps (just aoe) !!- Brash, Charged: 38 on hit, 412 radial c/t of 0.5 || 450/0.5 = 900 dps (direct+large aoe), 824 dps (just aoe) -!! Why use the non charged shot of the tremor? when u can charge up brash, with almost the same fire rate (2 shots/s) and deal 2x the damage per shot and have a large aoe. Why use the charged shot of the tremor? when with brash, even if each shot AT WORST, ON HIT does 25% less damage, and at best, ONLY AoE with 15% less damage, BUT FIRES ALMOST THREE (2.8x) as fast!! another point I did not raise was how pre-patch, the secondary fire would range from 505~612 dps depending on the grip, which was a lot more stable. Now, the steadyslam and tremor has been significantly nerfed, all while the brash had its dps doubled. Reveal hidden contents (as this is a repost, feel free for mods to notify me should I need to take one or the other down if that is necessary) What you wrote makes no sense at all, which you should be able to comprehend after reading the linked post. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEyedRaven Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Traumtulpe said: which you should be able to comprehend You know, with that kind of attitude all that's left is to wish you luck on your questionable journey. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltage Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 40 minutes ago, saghzs said: 2. Afraid of another catchmoon 2.0. Simple as that. DE isn't scared about another Catchmoon situation. Periodically they commit the same mistakes and have done this for the entirety of the game's life. Kuva Bramma was the worst offender too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Just now, RedEyedRaven said: You know, with that kind of attitude all that's left is to wish you luck on your questionable journey. You know, with that attitude you will forever remain ignorant. Which is entirely fine, ignorance is bliss after all. You would have done yourself a favor by actually reading the linked post though... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneakyErvin Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 33 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said: Aren't you just repeating a meme? No I'm seriously wondering what the difference is. How can one "faster" weapon with higher dps be considered inferior in the past while now a new one is considered superior, with the exact same mechanics involved. Heck, Opticor's faster version was even more of an actual upgrade since it had massive ways to proc extra statuses, which added up very fast due to it being able to fire 3 times when the normal opticor fired once. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traumtulpe Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Just now, SneakyErvin said: No I'm seriously wondering what the difference is. How can one "faster" weapon with higher dps be considered inferior in the past while now a new one is considered superior The Opticor Vandal is clearly superior, and you would never hear me say otherwise. Unfortunately a percentage of players has issues understanding numbers with excessive amounts of digits, and are unwilling to read anything that might try to explain said numbers. See the previous poster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 They intend to make a good, balanced game. But their methods of going about that are always questionable. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wearbe Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Adding to the idea that this game is strange and always has been... Those of you who were here in the first 4 years, were there inexplicable mechanics back then, too? I mean, I have lost count of how many odd things are in this game that would be extremely difficult to figure out without Youtube and the Wiki. Who figured out how Nova worked by reading the in-game description or just messing around on their own without any external influence? Did anyone here figure out how to hunt Eidolons without any assistance? And I still don't understand most of the storylines I have played through, but I have greatly enjoyed how unique everything is (I'm not complaining here). Anyway, it should follow that the minds that came up with all this bizarre stuff also have bizarre intentions for the bizarre things they create now, regardless of their nationality. I'd put money on some of the DE crew being straight up freaky. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0_The_F00l Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I don't think DE themselves have thought of what exactly they are trying to do. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felsagger Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said: They intend to make a good, balanced game. But their methods of going about that are always questionable. This perfectly resumes 90 percent of DE forums discussions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said: I don't think DE themselves have thought of what exactly they are trying to do. I agree. I think it's likely de are probably in a constant state of panic internally rushing to get content out. That leaves very little time to actually make long term plans beyond hazy aspirations. That explains why so many things get forgotten and left for dead and why there's so many unrelated aspects to the game. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of faith in de to always do their best and I love the game. There is unquestionably a lack of structure though. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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