Fossa + Jackal, no chance that's a level 6-8 mission anymore!

[(NSW)friffe66]

I sometimes gets killed on that mission even with my maxed out Octavia (max armor), my Helios Prime also often gets killed 2-3 times during the Jackal battle.

This is not okay since it's a VERY early node! So poor new players with low levels and so little in armor, health and shield (and probably with a weaker frame + no healing companion too!), they'll sure easily gets instantly killed by those insanely high damaging electrical conduits around the arena, the screen easily gets very busy, so it's so difficult to see what heck is happening on the screen, and dodge those electrical conduits, plus that spinning laser beams, and that Jackal loves to knocking you off so that you gets damaged by the conduits...It's even more difficult now than many bosses who comes after the Jackal one...

So many new players will gets discouraged by it and may giving up the game, if now a very early boss is this difficult and makes insane amount of damage. Even the enemies on Fossa are so much stronger now than before, yet still it's listed as a level 6-8 mission....!

There're so many nodes in the game who shows completely wrong difficulty level, Ropalolyst is also one of them, it's more a level 60 mission, since it easily does 2000-4000 damage on just one shot of its laser beam with my super-buffed Inaros with almost 800 in armor...like +85% of every frames gets one-shot by that bastard. You had to play a perfect game without any mistake after all to defeating it without even getting killed, and it's also a pretty early node....not even on halfways into the game!

 

[Traumtulpe]

13 minutes ago, (NSW)friffe66 said:

I sometimes gets killed on that mission even with my maxed out Octavia (max armor)

You aren't the first with this complaint; Last time I tried the mission without mods to see the difficulty for myself. I didn't even get downed.

[GnarlsDarkley]

15 minutes ago, (NSW)friffe66 said:

I sometimes gets killed on that mission even with my maxed out Octavia (max armor), my Helios Prime also often gets killed 2-3 times during the Jackal battle.

Weird. I have never seen a prompt to run into the red deadly moving walls who keep shouting "Evade! Jump!" /s

I mean, really? How thick are you still standing in these if you get downed so often? You can jump, run, hide, climb....heck even normal walking in circles is sufficient enough to net get hit once

[GKP_light]

i can do this without défensive mod or use operator, but it is because i have more than 1000 hours in this game.

i realy don't think that this fight is suitable for a beginer with 5 hours in the game.

[Miser_able]

Ive recently been playing the game with a group of friends who just started out (brand new accounts and everything) and they handled the new jackal just fine. the player who had the most only died twice. and they solo-ed it.

[DrivaMain]

Everyone’s answer : Get Good. 
 

Let us have a boss that require us to use our brains for once.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb (NSW)friffe66:

I sometimes gets killed on that mission even with my maxed out Octavia (max armor), my Helios Prime also often gets killed 2-3 times during the Jackal battle.

Armor on Octavia? I think I found the problem.

Btw. I agree with the others. The jackal fight is not to hard.

[DarkCrusader1985]

The new jackal is made that way with a purpose, It's a way to tell new players "learn to bullet jump and climb the walls or prepare to die".

[MechaKnight]

DE wants to cultivate a better player base so they made a better boss battle for early players. DE can't add challenge to the game if players don't expect there to be challenge. The game was devoid of challenge for so long veterans got bored.

[BlackCat500]

Here you go. I barely even tried, I more or less died twice to prove a point it can be done with next to no mods (pretty sure you can do it entirely without anyway, but even newbies have a few). You barely even need to watch your step. The electric walls are about the only thing that may kill you if you're doing it half asleep with one eye closed, the laser wall is completely irrelevant. Mind you, I don't even want to sound elitist or anything, but I am so happy the guy got a rework and they're trying to spice up the challenge levels a little bit in the game. I don't want it removed or gimped. Just try a bit harder and you will realize it's a walk in the park.

[ES-Flinter]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb BlackCat500:

Here you go. I barely even tried, I more or less died twice to prove a point it can be done with next to no mods (pretty sure you can do it entirely without anyway, but even newbies have a few). You barely even need to watch your step. The electric walls are about the only thing that may kill you if you're doing it half asleep with one eye closed, the laser wall is completely irrelevant. Mind you, I don't even want to sound elitist or anything, but I am so happy the guy got a rework and they're trying to spice up the challenge levels a little bit in the game. I don't want it removed or gimped. Just try a bit harder and you will realize it's a walk in the park.

Maybe you should do it next time without an companion otherwise there will be some people who will claim that your companion did all the damage and that the jackal attacked your moa and not you. And remove the parazon mods.^^

[BlackCat500]

That's true, I honestly forgot about it, although all it has is a stat stick and he is shooting the wrong parts. Well, no matter. I think if someone really wants to deny that it can be done, they will probably do it regardless of how irrefutable the proof is. I was just getting frustrated reading yet another post like this so I wanted to make a quick video.

[Nakti]

You say that it can be done, but you can do this only because you are experienced. From my experience as newbie and looking at others new players, they have much less mobility in combat - no bullet jumping and aim gliding, significantly less rolls. 

Jackal is turning too fast - without bullet jumping it’d be hard to hit hind legs. And elec walls are too strong - if there were no shield gating, they could kill a player after touching wall only once. 

Grendel missions can be completed solo too, why not push new players to that levels of difficulty?

[ES-Flinter]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Nakti:

You say that it can be done, but you can do this only because you are experienced. From my experience as newbie and looking at others new players, they have much less mobility in combat - no bullet jumping and aim gliding, significantly less rolls. 

Jackal is turning too fast - without bullet jumping it’d be hard to hit hind legs. And elec walls are too strong - if there were no shield gating, they could kill a player after touching wall only once. 

Blackcat did it solo. I could bet that the most newbies will try in a public mission, if they don't succeed in the first time. And luckily in a public mission there's no limit of how often you can revive your teammates.

Btw. like Blackcat already showed. It's possible to just shoot past the front legs to hit the hind legs. And in public the jackal can't look in every direction at once.

vor 35 Minuten schrieb Nakti:

Grendel missions can be completed solo too, why not push new players to that levels of difficulty?

That's sarcasm, right? Imo are the grendel missions harder, because the enemy level is over 40.

[BlackCat500]

Because of two things. First, there is a newbie tutorial. As insufficient as it may be (that is a whole different can of worms), it does explain how to do the basic stuff, such as bullet jumping. Aim gliding and rolling, it's been too long for me to say whether they were really in there or not. but frankly, those are not necessary to beat it. You can literally hide behind the pillars for a good while or even just sidestep most of the stuff. These are things you can practice, but you will not practice often if we don't start putting things into the game that make the player think about not facetanking stuff. Second, grendel missions are not only irrelevant to the point and much harder simply due to scaled up numbers and mission types, but allow for a far wider arsenal of warfames and weapons than a newbie has access to to match.

 

The elec walls are strong, sure, but they're meant to be. Also, a hypothetical lack of shield gating is absolutely irrelevant considering it is there to stay and was designed after shield gating had become a thing. If you move to a more tactical position instead of getting yourself sandwiched you will survive, unlike what I did. Again, things you can practice. This was a simple run I did in one go. I've done maybe 9 runs of jackal since its rework and all of them were incredibly overgeared, so I didn't have to pay any attention to the mechanics. This was basically my first time actually trying to do it the legit way, hence the two deaths. I have my experience, sure..but that's not exclusive to me. People can and should learn.

Whataboutism isn't going to change that, especially because none of these missions are explicitly designed to be soloable. It says so absolutely nowhere. If you are having trouble, you go in a squad. You can even do the unthinkable and attempt to communicate with your squad on how to beat it. However, if it is possible with someone with as little equipment as I used to beat it (even taking my experience into account), it means that a vastly less experienced team with equal or better equipment can very likely beat it with ease, turning speed included. They may also use warframe abilities such as volt's shield, excal's slash dash/exalted blade or mag's bubble maybe. I used no abilities. There are so many ways for people to get better, work together and be stronger than what I showcased.

 

The one point that I will concede, which was only vaguely mentioned in OP's post as far as I can see, are the visual effects being too uniform to the room color. Sometimes, things are hard to spot. I will wholeheartedly agree with that, as much as it is still decently possible to see things once you have done the battle a few times (which, if you are struggling to beat it, automatically is the case). Difficulty though, no. We even have a Q&A channel now specifically for asking for help, even if it's just explanations for things. Insisting on going solo in an MMORPG when you feel you are being outclassed and then trying to argue it's too hard won't get anyone anywhere, so let's not even try to go down that road again. OP rightfully mentioned squads instead of solo players, so let's keep it at that. Still, I say it's not unreasonably hard.

[Nakti]

2 часа назад, ES-Flinter сказал:

I could bet that the most newbies will try in a public mission, if they don't succeed in the first time

Unfortunately, we can never estimate count of players that will continue trying solo and either succeed or fail. And player might feel frustrated because he is too weak/slow to beat second planet of all solar system. For example, my first and only public starchart boss was Alad V, but nobody helped me, so I had to beat him alone anyway. (Well, not counting Ambulas and Kela.) And few my friends in WF prefer to do it solo, although I don't know how did they play at the beginning.

 

Ok, I was really wrong mentioning Grendel, as I forgot about variety of equipment. But still skill isn't that one must have from the scratch, it's earned gradually while playing much like new weapons/frames.

 

2 часа назад, BlackCat500 сказал:

These are things you can practice, but you will not practice often if we don't start putting things into the game that make the player think about not facetanking stuff.

It's good intention, but I think this fight is too pressing to learn parkour, to start tracking more and faster moving hazards. Remember, it's the second boss fight in the game, and players have seen only ordinary enemies, that are just shooting and running around, and Vor. And here are homing rockets, deadly walls and knockbacks. For example, Jupiter encourages using these moves, but don't enforce them - most obstacles can be completed with common moves (that player could know from other games), they are just a lot easier when you have right reflexes.

 

Although my posts say Jackal is too hard for new players, i don't actually want to say that he's hard. I just want to say that you cannot compare your performance to their. Once one learned a skill, he forgets really fast how it feels to know it. So whatever an experienced player does, he does it many times better than a new one. And when you say that "new players probably could better", you assume, that they should have experience and skills compared to yours, which is mostly not true.

I mean all your arguments are valid and I can't counter them, but I doubt that they are applicable to a person that barely knows with which end to hold the mk1 lato.

Maybe I'm just hugely underestimating new players) If that's the case, I apologize to them, and to both you for starting this dispute)

[ES-Flinter]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb Nakti:

And player might feel frustrated because he is too weak/slow to beat second planet of all solar system.

There will be player that will feel frustrated, because he might take to long to kill. But this player will also feel much more happier/ encouraged, if they finally killed it.

 

Storytime: If I remember it right I needed about 30min until I finally killed lephantis. I was frustrated like hell and I asked myself why the heck am I even trying it. But after I finally killed it I remembered why I did it. I wanted to become stronger. And to become stronger I needed to learn how to mod my Warframes/ my weapons. (And I wanted the nekros parts. ^^ )

An other "funny" boss was Tyl regor. Unlike now he wasn't just a teleporting guy with an axe. He had a simple skana, an army (same room like Sargas Ruk) and a shield with a higher regeneration than hildryn with no cooldown. (Hell for newbies, but a weakling for every middler) I can't remeber anymore how often he killed me, but the day I finally killed him. Man was I happy. The mission lasted only 10min, but this 10min needed 200% of my skill. I had to  learn how to avoid damage, while also deqlimg damage to my enemies and most important I learned how to to calculate my jumps and read the map. Because If I jumped into a hole or in a horde of enemies the mission was over. (Back than you had only four revives per day. Not four per mission.)

In the end did Lephantis and especially Tyl regor just showed me my weaknesses and made me in the end stronger. And Imo that's what bosses are for. Showing you your weaknesses and helping you to fix them. Jackal is actually the perfect boss for newbies to learn how to bulletjump and how to read the enemies movements.

[Nakti]

3 минуты назад, ES-Flinter сказал:

If I remember it right I needed about 30min until I finally killed lephantis.

I think my lephantis took ~40 minutes at first try. I was focused on dodging his slow attacks and aiming into his inviting ping mouths. Only moment of frustration was when minute timer started in second phase. But game cheated in my favor: charger spawned from nowhere, and killing him allowed me to continue the fight) I didn’t know how to see my mission time, so I don’t know exact valye. I didn’t know a lot of things I know now - pizzas, proper modding, weapon choice...

Your old Tyl sounds scary and difficult.

I’m afraid, if one learns enough to beat Jackal, he won’t have much more to learn from other bosses) Unless DE is taking a course on even more complicated bosses and enemies. Than Jackal is ok as first step, even if it looks exaggerating now.

[UUDDLRLRBA_START]

Once players build up their retinue of different Warframes (esp. from the ones in the dojo tech tree), they will learn new options of playing.